Borges Lovers/metafiction?

[Arabella Donn]

I'm brand new here, but am impressed with what I have read thusfar.

I returned to school after being away for a few years, and will be starting grad school this fall. I had decided to do my master's project on a specific aspect of Victorianism (hence, Arabella Donn) but that has fallen apart (the Victorianist here died suddenly on the first day of the semester, and the quasi-victorianist that is filling in for him is intolerable). I've since discovered and fallen in love with Borges, I think my master's project is going to be in the realm of Philosophical metafiction. Anyone else here of a similar bent? I'm hoping to find a small group of people to share ideas and discussion with.


--arabella

[crisaor]

I'd be glad to share some thoughts about Borges.

[subterranean]

This is sound like a 'heavy' genre. It's called metafiction but it isn't a type of fiction..not there's another thing called philosophical metafiction..??

I could use some an enlightment

[Arabella Donn]

(Yes, after three times of having typed a post and losing it, I’ve finally wised up and utilized the word processor. Evidently, three is the number of times I must repeat a mistake before learning from it.)

Right now I’m playing with ethics and morals in Borges. Borges is quoted as saying “I think of myself as being an ethical man, but I don't try to teach ethics. I have no message.” This leads me to the conclusion that he is not attempting to write fables, that his ethical/moral message is not intended on an individualistic basis. i.e. A reader will not read a Borges tale and think “I have behaved as is described in this story. Now, I see what the outcome of this story is. Therefore, I must stop behaving as is described here, or I will meet the same end.”

I posit that Borges moral/ethical message is more of a message for all men. In other words, a reader consumes a Borges tale and thinks to himself “This is the manner in which all men should (or in some cases, shouldn’t) behave.” Borges moral message is not for the individual, Borges moral message is for humanity. Any thoughts?

(Does this read coherently, with any sense? I generally don't make much sense until the second or third revision, and one doesn't revise much when posting in a forum.)

In particular, I am looking at "The Garden of Forking Paths," "The Aleph" (one of my favorites – I love the concept of the aleph.), "The Lottery in Babylon," "The South" (maybe – I love this one) "The Theologians," "The End" and (my personal favorite) "The Circular Ruins." I haven’t touched on any of the poetry, but reserve the right to if it fits. :)

There is so much to Borges, I haven’t even scratched the surface (begun the labyrinth?) of what I want to research and study and write about.

Crisaor – I am fascinated by your sig. Do you read Borges in the native language? I am only able to read French and English, so I have twisted the arm of our Spanish instructor here at the university to study the works that were originally written in Borges native tongue. We have a copy in the original language and a translation, and she is able to tell me what nuances the translation misses.

Subterrranean – I should have included quotes around “philosophical metafiction” when I wrote it in my first post. It’s not a genre that’s probably officially recognized by the canon, but one that has been thrown around a couple of seminars I’ve attended. I think it applies to Borges, who can certainly be labeled philosopher, and he employs the tools of metafiction so often that I just feel that the descriptor fits. :)

[Shore Dude]

I have not read a lot of Borges, but I will definitely check out the stories you mentioned. With regards to the following thought...

Right now I’m playing with ethics and morals in Borges. Borges is quoted as saying “I think of myself as being an ethical man, but I don't try to teach ethics. I have no message.” This leads me to the conclusion that he is not attempting to write fables, that his ethical/moral message is not intended on an individualistic basis. i.e. A reader will not read a Borges tale and think “I have behaved as is described in this story. Now, I see what the outcome of this story is. Therefore, I must stop behaving as is described here, or I will meet the same end.”
Have you ever experienced your mother or father giving their opinion on what you should do? Completely remove the aspect of whether it is right or wrong, some people (including myself), become immediately apprehensive. For me some times, I either wanted to exert my independence and attempt to figure it out on my own. Or I was just tired of feeling as though I was always hearing their unsolicited opinion. Now as I grew older, I have learned to manage my relationship with them, and value their opinions by asking or telling them when I would like to ask for help.

However, I think it's human nature to act in a similar manner. As soon as you know there may be a lecture, or an assertion of an opinion, the audience is immediately searching for the validity of ideas. The truth. They immediately begin racking their minds for their ideals, their experiences, and perhaps miss the true messages.

With Borges, he seems to set up his writing (and essentially his ideas) by saying... "Hey look everyone, I think I am an ethical person, but I don't care to teach ethics. I don't have a message. I just like to write."

This way, through a sense of literary reverse psychology, the reader is not expecting to learn anything, he or she is simply looking to read, but in essence, extracting more meaning (truth) from the text?

[Arabella Donn]

Shore dude,

I like the new angle that you have raised -- that writing moralistically for a specific audience (unless that audience is in the two and under set) is sometimes (frequently?) met with resistance, resentment or outright dismissal. And, althought I'm not sure I'll go here, following this line of logic, one could argue that in order to really write a moralistic tale, in order to really make sure your message is heard, the author must basically state, Oh, no, I don't have a message -- I think I am an ethical person, but I am not attempting to impose my ethics on you. All of which would make said author pretty crafty, no?

This would also fit in nicely with the entire metafiction genre, which uses much of the same sidelong language to get the point across.

Thanks for the mental cud.

[mono]

How strange that a thread regarding Borges should appear, as an English class I take pleasantly required students to read, the short story, The Gospel According to Mark. I can see clearly your term, which I have never heard, of 'metafiction;' Borges states bluntly 'the protagonist' and 'before the incident I am narrating.' Has anyone else read the short story?

[crisaor]

I posit that Borges moral/ethical message is more of a message for all men. In other words, a reader consumes a Borges tale and thinks to himself “This is the manner in which all men should (or in some cases, shouldn’t) behave.” Borges moral message is not for the individual, Borges moral message is for humanity. Any thoughts?
Well, I'd say that there is no moral message at all, something you already hinted with the quote you mentioned. Borges chooses to make the story (the tale itself) the priority, as in writing the correct link between the beginning and the end (which, according to him, were the only two things he already knew when writing a short story). He never worries to give out a message, that's the reader job, and that's the way the reader complements the author (remember that Borges always gave much more credit to the reader than to the writer himself).

(Does this read coherently, with any sense? I generally don't make much sense until the second or third revision, and one doesn't revise much when posting in a forum.)
Yes, it does, Arabella, don't worry about it. :)

In particular, I am looking at "The Garden of Forking Paths," "The Aleph" (one of my favorites – I love the concept of the aleph.), "The Lottery in Babylon," "The South" (maybe – I love this one) "The Theologians," "The End" and (my personal favorite) "The Circular Ruins." I haven’t touched on any of the poetry, but reserve the right to if it fits. :)
Good ones so far. He wrote several books of poetry, but I'd suggest you to stick to the prose books, they have a lot more to offer. Even so, if you still plan to check out some of his poetry, try Los Conjurados (The Conjurers), it's his best work in that field.

Crisaor – I am fascinated by your sig. Do you read Borges in the native language? I am only able to read French and English, so I have twisted the arm of our Spanish instructor here at the university to study the works that were originally written in Borges native tongue. We have a copy in the original language and a translation, and she is able to tell me what nuances the translation misses.
I do, I'm a fellow countryman of he. You are not the first one who mentions that the translation to english loses some of the charm of the original in Borges. I'm surprised. I perused some of his english translations but never finished a tale, and I didn't think the translation was such an issue. Anyway, I'm sure you can enjoy him despite any flaws derived from the languaje barrier.

[Monica]

borges is very interesting, although sometimes too abstract for me. my favourite story is the library of babel. actually i got interested in borges because umberto eco writes about him a lot. i've also read borges' story about constucting the map which would be the same size as the territory it presents. the idea itself was nice, but where's the sense in it? probably it't too dificult for me to understand. i had borges on my interpretations classes. it was the gospel according to mark. intriguing as well.

[Yankee]

I adore metafiction! With Haruki Murakami occupying the top position on my list. :p

His new one rips!

http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/files/2011/03/murakami.png