Don't Point The Finger At Religion!

[Captainqt]

Without a doubt, the most influential factor in civilization and it's advancement/withdrawal is religous in nature. In order to more fully understand the impact of these religous effects, we must look at it individually and carefully. The problem with examining issues like this is of course bias in the discussion. If a Christian and a Muslim are having a debate about which is more influential over disastrous events, obviously either one will not take the other's side. That is a give in and requires no discussion.
So, the real bottom line question here is: Is it religion that causes a war, or poverty, or famine, or moral degredation such as lying, cheating, stealing? Let's think about it. What is religion? Religion is a belief in and worship of God or gods, according to Webster's. A belief can be narrowed down to being defined as a system of thought, not action! Just because I believe in the existence of aliens does not make me an alien hunter. Just because I believe the sky is falling will not make me build a fall out shelter. But there is something that causes the system of thought to turn into action. There has to be... I am only saying this, because each religion has a similar philosophy saying that faith without works is dead. Belief without doing is useless. It is often this slogan of many religious beliefs that turns a faithful believer into a radical extremist. In nature there exists a balance between Good and Evil. It is a supernatural element that cannot be seen by one who does not believe in such a world. In humanity, when we find Good it cannot be wholly good, and likewise with evil. A man cannot be purely good or purely evil. We are an imperfect creation. This is no excuse for the faults and disruptions that we find in our society. This is an explanation as to why they are so widespread, especially throughout the religous world. Our 'civilized' world has come to the point now where most recognize that it is not okay to kill in the name of God, however one cannot deny that it has happened in the past. Certainly it also happens in very few instances now as well, but it is rare today. I consider the current conflict in Iraq a religous conflict, simply because whenever you hear about it on a news broadcast, the word Muslim will never be left out. Islam is a Good religion with good people. Christianity is a Good religion with good people. They all surround themselves with Good, but in our human world there is Bad inherently mixed in with that Good. Perfection is impossible. To scrutinize a particular set of beliefs because of a lack of perfection is unfair and it is bias. Even what we call 'Truth' in science and other arts is an imperfect assessment, simply because we cannot comprehend Truth. For example, in order to understand the beginning of the universe fully and truthfully without a doubt, you would have to witness it. No one witnessed it, yet based upon faith in a theory called truth, there are those who believe in certain ways it has happened. Faith does not kill people, exaggerated beliefs and people's pride kill people, cause war, povery, famine, moral degredation and so on. We are imperfect and in this life cannot achieve perfection, so the blame does not lie on our beliefs, but our actions.

[Wintermute]

We are imperfect and in this life cannot achieve perfection, so the blame does not lie on our beliefs, but our actions.

Hi Captainqt,

I kind of agree with you. However I'm not sure you could have some of the horrendous actions--9/11 being an example--without beliefs as a prime motivator.

The first portion of your last sentence implies that there is another life in which we can achieve perfection. Is this correct? This got me thinking. I'm not even sure I could describe a 'perfect' individual, let alone aspire to be one. Assuming you do expect another life after this, and that in that life all are perfect: What do you think it will be like? Will we retain our individuality? Will we remember other beings from our former life?

In talking to others it seems all have notions of what an afterlife might be like. And I guess 'perfection' is as good a theory as any. I guess I'm just so imperfect that I can't even imagine what perfect is, hehe.

Cheers,
Doug

[mercy_mankind]

If a Christian and a Muslim are having a debate about which is more influential over disastrous events, obviously either one will not take the other's side.
I disagree with you in this point , there is something called "Truth" and we must tend to it after confirms that Truth by powerful evidences , but there is really intolerant and biased to the idea, even after the existence of evidences .




Is it religion that causes a war, or poverty, or famine, or moral degredation such as lying, cheating, stealing?
No it is not only religion , it is the Intolerance of ideas, even after the existence of errors in ideas


A man cannot be purely good or purely evil. We are an imperfect creation.
Yes that is true ,
but the "evil" rate varies from one individual to another, and "good" also vary from one individual to another.but religion draws behaviour.



so the blame does not lie on our beliefs, but our actions

I agree and disagree , sometimes beliefs are responsible for actions , and at the same time some people offend their religion by their actions .

[Redzeppelin]

I think religion is often like a gun: in and of itself it poses no danger and cannot be said to possess any positive or negative qualities. Once you pick the gun up (and depending upon your character and your intentions) the gun then possesses either a positive or negative effect.

Religion is the same: good things and atrocious things have been done in the name of religion - and those good or atrocious things have been brought about by people who looked at the religion either rightly, or wrongly. Religion is a vehicle through which "believers" may perpetrate evil or good (sadly so).

[djy78usa]

I think individual faith is a great thing. Once it becomes organized though, people inevitably start vying for power or influence and it can become dangerous. Religion isn't the problem, how some people approach religion is the trouble.

[hellsapoppin]

History shows that humanity made greater progress during the Age of Enlightenment rather than because of orthodoxy. As orthodoxy has lost its primacy in western cultures, advancements snowballed. Ancient Hellenic society had a similar experience.

Therefore, as rationalists have said for many decades, religion is the problem.

[Kent Edwins]

I think, if anything, religion hinders social progress more than it inspires it. There is a quote, written somewhere (I forget by whom), that says "There are good people in this world and bad people. How do you make a good person bad? Give [that person] religion."

[Wintermute]

I think, if anything, religion hinders social progress more than it inspires it. There is a quote, written somewhere (I forget by whom), that says "There are good people in this world and bad people. How do you make a good person bad? Give [that person] religion."

Hi Kent,

There is some wisdom there in my opinion. Taking it away can also cause problems. I think it is not good to teach young kids certainty. Adults telling kids that they are 100% certain this or that God exists and has everything under control is folly in my opinion. The kid grows up, as I did, and discovers that things are far from certain. They, as I did, feel deceived to some extent. I feel, though I have no data to back me up, that this can cause some to develop depression and antisocial tendancies.

Naturally, being agnostic, I could be wrong.

Doug

[DapperDrake]

The problem with religion is that it gives those within that religion who have authority pretty much unchecked power and as they say, power corrupts.

There are many other problems too but I think thats the main one.
Christianity is quite enlightened in this respect as it focuses on meekness, love etc. as being central, but even with that its abundantly clear that those principles don't stop those who have power within the religion twisting the whole in to evil. The inquisition and the crusades are two indisputable examples but there are many more subtle examples all around in Christianity today.

This may amuse but I've always thought of religion as being like marriage (at a personal level anyway), both are theoretically beatific, pure, blissful, loving institutions. In theory. but as soon as we take that theory off the self and try and put it into practice it rapidly falls apart and becomes hypocritical and a source of much of the exact opposite.

[El Viejo]

We love little else as much as we love being right. When we're able to measure and examine a thing we're able to figure out what really is right, and most will submit, more or less gracefully, to the findings.

When we dispute that which cannot be examined or measured then we are free to believe, preach, even zealously force our view, with absolute certainty and righteousness.

Religion has striven to do great good. Abolition is a sterling example. Churches argued for equality and liberty for slaves. Fortunately for them, superior military force was aligned with them, because there were other churches arguing as stridently, as convincingly, that the sons of Ham were inherently inferior to those of Japheth, and bound to serve him always. Fabric of society stuff.

Religion and force are based on the gut. No intellect is necessary, just a firm belief in one's rightness. As such, they are disastrous choices for societal foundation stones.

[Dark Star]

I think, if anything, religion hinders social progress more than it inspires it. There is a quote, written somewhere (I forget by whom), that says "There are good people in this world and bad people. How do you make a good person bad? Give [that person] religion."

The quote is by Steven Weinberg: "Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things. But it takes religion to make good people do bad things."

[mayneverhave]

Everything should be scrutinized whether you like it or not.

Point a finger inward at your own beliefs. Question everything.

[Dori]

Without a doubt, the most influential factor in civilization and it's advancement/withdrawal is religous in nature.

Advancement, I would say.


This is no excuse for the faults and disruptions that we find in our society.

Oh, there are many.


This is an explanation as to why they are so widespread, especially throughout the religous world. Our 'civilized' world has come to the point now where most recognize that it is not okay to kill in the name of God, however one cannot deny that it has happened in the past. Certainly it also happens in very few instances now as well, but it is rare today. I consider the current conflict in Iraq a religous conflict, simply because whenever you hear about it on a news broadcast, the word Muslim will never be left out.

Yep, because the news gets everything right. Even if it is a religious conflict, putting your faith in the news is not necessarily the best thing to do.


Faith does not kill people, exaggerated beliefs and people's pride kill people, cause war, povery, famine, moral degredation and so on. We are imperfect and in this life cannot achieve perfection, so the blame does not lie on our beliefs, but our actions.

But faith does kill people. Take Joan of Arc for example.

[DapperDrake]

But faith does kill people. Take Joan of Arc for example.

I think its was largely, sadly, English political pressure that killed Joan of Arc. Left to the church alone there wouldn't of even been a trial.

[Dori]

I think its was largely, sadly, English political pressure that killed Joan of Arc. Left to the church alone there wouldn't of even been a trial.

You completely misunderstood. Perhaps I am at fault for not making it clear. :p

I meant to say that Joan of Arc killed (others that is) because of her faith (well, not her alone, but she was the one who supposedly had a divine encounter). :thumbs_up

[DapperDrake]

Ah I take your point, yes it certainly was her belief that God wanted her to fight for her country. Still, Joan's actions could well fall into the category of "exaggerated beliefs and people's pride" because I think its safe to say God wasn't telling her to kill people.
Theres no getting away from the fact that alloyed with other motives or with delusions, faith can be very dangerous, I don't think anyone's denying that, but I think you do need more than just faith and Christianity to have the conviction that you need to kill people.

Anyway, how many peole who fought and died in the hundred years war did so for their faith?

[hellsapoppin]

Anyway, how many peole who fought and died in the hundred years war did so for their faith?


More people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon


and it also helps answer the question of whether the biblical god is so nice - after all, no loving god would create a Bible or religion or series of religions that would kill so many in its name

[SirRaustusBear]

I think its safe to say God wasn't telling her to kill people.

How is this safe to say? Isn't Joan of Arc a saint? If God didn't really talk to her then her sainthood is based on lies, and an infallible pope would never condone that. That is if you believe in the Catholic perspective.

Even if you don't though you can't just assume God wouldn't instruct someone to kill, he does it plenty of times in the bible.

[DapperDrake]

More people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason:



Perhaps ostensibly, but I doubt very much actually. In most cases I would be happy to assume that religion has just been a smoke screen, an excuse for something that would of happened anyway.



How is this safe to say? Isn't Joan of Arc a saint? If God didn't really talk to her then her sainthood is based on lies, and an infallible pope would never condone that. That is if you believe in the Catholic perspective.

Even if you don't though you can't just assume God wouldn't instruct someone to kill, he does it plenty of times in the bible.

Yes thats a very fair point, i'm probably not the person to defend against it. I personally do not trust the Bible, I personally believe that its falible - Written by man, largely metaphore and myth, and I believe it is self inconsistant and impossible to believe literally whilst maintaining rationality.

But I would say the God revealed by Jesus does not to me seem to be the sort of God who would condone or instruct murder. The New testament, all be it in a very jumbled and incoherant way, presents some very solid ethics.

[hellsapoppin]

"In most cases I would be happy to assume that religion has just been a smoke screen, an excuse for something that would of happened anyway."

On what basis, if you please.


"The New testament, all be it in a very jumbled and incoherant way, presents some very solid ethics."

Agreed. Yet, if this represent the Living Word (that is, the embodiment of some divinity), you have to wonder why would such a being create a writing that would cause the death of so many innocents and still claim to be ever so beneficent.

[Dori]

More people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatz.htm#RelCon


and it also helps answer the question of whether the biblical god is so nice - after all, no loving god would create a Bible or religion or series of religions that would kill so many in its name

90% of all statistics can be made to say anything, 50% of the time. :p :lol:

My dad believes it's 100% of the time rather than 50%. :D

[Riesa]

faith and god exist.

as far as you, human, say they do.

[Virgil]

Agreed. Yet, if this represent the Living Word (that is, the embodiment of some divinity), you have to wonder why would such a being create a writing that would cause the death of so many innocents and still claim to be ever so beneficent.

You keep saying throughout the forum that religion has been the major impetus for war. That is patently rediculous. Might I remind you that the Napoleonic wars, the Franco-Prussian War, WWI, WWII, the Cold War (with it's variant hot war flare ups) all had nothing to do with religion. In fact if you look back on history there is actually a paucity of religious wars. Even today's war on terrorism is not if you look at it carefully a religious war. Mind you just about all the Muslim nations are on our side against Al Quaida, even if they disagree on the tactic of Iraq. Human nature finds reasons for war, and if religion didn't exist it would find other reasons. So your world view of religion is actually warped. If you disbelieve, fine, but to say religion causes war is ignorant.

[DapperDrake]

You keep saying throughout the forum that religion has been the major impetus for war. That is patently rediculous. Might I remind you that the Napoleonic wars, the Franco-Prussian War, WWI, WWII, the Cold War (with it's variant hot war flare ups) all had nothing to do with religion. In fact if you look back on history there is actually a paucity of religious wars. Even today's war on terrorism is not if you look at it carefully a religious war. Mind you just about all the Muslim nations are on our side against Al Quaida, even if they disagree on the tactic of Iraq. Human nature finds reasons for war, and if religion didn't exist it would find other reasons. So your world view of religion is actually warped. If you disbelieve, fine, but to say religion causes war is ignorant.

Thanks Virgil thats what i'm trying to say.
I think most wars are basically to do with resources, land, power etc. and other excuses may be presented to make that more palatable politically at the time.

[erikwithAk]

faith in anything doesnt make you do anything you can just sit there and do nothing or you can do what you can and strive for the best or you can twist and manipulate it and then kill people blow up buildings. its not the religon itself its how the "extriest" handle there desires to serve that deity the crazy ones kill for no reason the ones who listen to what (god in this case) are actualy telling them to do they would be striving for peace and justice not war and hate.

so just somthing for you all to chew on.

[hellsapoppin]

"That is patently rediculous."

You need to do your homework. See the link provided to dispel your ignorance.

[Virgil]

"That is patently rediculous."

You need to do your homework. See the link provided to dispel your ignorance.

Big ****. Most of those are not religious wars. They're over territory or aggression. You have a hostility to reliogion and it's quite evident.

[hellsapoppin]

Horsesh*T. You are prejudiced against the truth and your projections of your hostile attitude does nothing to justify religion.