Sin is a compulsion or choice?

[blazeofglory]

Why does one commit sins? Out of compulsion or choice?

Nobody at birth is a sinner. Man is in the make neither sinfu nor saintly. These are externals, a veneer, a stain, a coating. These are removable things, and in a while they fade away. Man is a perfect, unified being. He pervades all or one in all notwithstanding the fact that seemingly he is indvidualsitc.

Sins, if he has committed are not out of choice or free will, and of course it is a response when a particualr situation or circumstance befalls him.

He by nature is seamless and congenially is in harmony with all.

We all in point of fact are interconnected, concordantly one whole.

Sins are temporary phenomena, and he commits them in strugle with external forces.

In fact nobody is pure or clean of sins in this universe. Friction is the law of nature, and we commits sins under a particular circumstance.

Sins are bodily or mental reactions. It is a languageg through which we communicate.
At the core everyone commits it and can not do away with this. He has no choice.
You may say why murder, rape, abuse happen. It is a counter, a reaction to a circumstance.
It is a question of value judgement. You may consider killing animals or hunting is not a sin but I feel killing innocent animals is equally sinful as killing human beings.

Even taming wild animals for your amusement is likened to slavery.

Sins are committed out of compulsion.
This proposition is rather hard to comprehend. Let us ponder deeply, and imagine a world of abundance and equality. Imagine a moment when everyone is given justice, and a world wherein everyone gets opportunities. There you will see lesss sins committed.

[aeroport]

Why does one commit sins? Out of compulsion or choice?

That depends on whether one is Adam or Eve. :D

[blazeofglory]

Indeed prayer is a waste of time. I have seen many faith holders indulging in prayer from morning to evening.

I myself did a great deal in point of fact. Born to a Brahmanic clan, I was so much orthodoxy, and prayed every morning and evening.

We have days for prayer and only for prayer.

We sat together, a kind of congregation, to pray all day and night.

All of us have firm belief in prayer.

Today, I have a different point of view, and am convinced that helping the poor and the needy the greatest prayer.

If God really exists and renders us the freedom of choice as commonly believed in many religious communities, all he wants is to set harmony in the world.

Supposing you work in a company and the best thing to do there is to work hard and get rewarded, not to flatter the boss and get advantages over the rest who work hard.

I see people, thousands of them sitting before a Guru, and listening to his or her uninturrupted speeches, continually. They live on the sweat of others.
Spirituality is something they take this way; yet spirituality is something different. It has to primarily do with benovalence and altruism.

Let us redifine spirituality.

[Kent Edwins]

I see people, thousands of them sitting before a Guru, and listening to his or her uninturrupted speeches, continually. They live on the sweat of others.

I agree that it is wrong for people to pray all day and do no work that benefits others. However, wouldn't you say everything has its time and its place? To participate in this world on not only the physical levels, but the mental ones. That, I think, is the point of prayer, or, let's expand the definition to "reflecting upon the wisdom of others".

I confess that the closest thing to listening to Gurus in my life is sitting in Literature and Philosophy course at the University. There are some people who structure their whole lives around going to school, getting degrees, learning a lot about various subjects without entering into any other sort of profession. I'm not one of these people, but I do think it necessary to have some kind of mental activity- prayer, learning, something- to exist fully in this universe.

[NikolaiI]

On my way home I saw a homeless man and asked him if he was hungry. "Yes, very hungry and very thirsty." So I told him I would come back in 15 or 20 minutes with some food. I brought him grapes, half a banana, cantaloupe and some nice cheese and crackers. I only mention this because in doing this errand, I felt something very nice, more benefit spiritually than if I had spent the time meditating or chanting. But it was because of the time I do spend meditating and chanting that I would feel this spirituality. I did this errand automatically and on my way doing so, I was thinking of these words by Vivekananda, "This is the gist of all worship: to be pure and to do good to others. He who sees Shiva in the poor, in the weak, and in the diseased, really worships Shiva. And if he sees Shiva only in the image, his worship is but preliminary. He who has served and helped one poor man seeing Shiva in him, without thinking of his caste or creed or race or anything, with him Shiva is more please than with the man who sees Him only in temples."

And I was in a bit of an argument with a friend of mine earlier this evening, about this very thing, or something similar-- whether to live as a hermit in solitude or to live in the city, fulfilling some vocation, of service to God, to God's children. I argue very rarely. I don't find it very enjoyable, and usually I am silent. Anyway in America, Blazeofglory, things are very different. There are less temples and except in rare cases you will not see thousands in temples listening to an uninterrupted master. You might see thousands in a football or baseball stadium, though. I see your point though, and it seems to me spiritual realization should be more spontaneous than that-- it shouldn't be based on material gains and merits (such as initiations, perhaps). It is because of the unquestioning aspect of it that there can be certain "wrong" ideas that get propagated. To me the highest teaching is a complete process of revelation, always overturning whatever is in existence, so you can never say that someone is spiritually attained because they do things a certain way; because any "way" is always a limiting one. And then there is the dread dogmatism, and all that. But here we are discussing in general the spiritual practice of many individuals, and judging it to be insufficient; in truth, this is a very ignorant platform to stand on. It might be right, but it's probably wrong.

"If God really exists and renders us the freedom of choice as commonly believed in many religious communities, all he wants is to set harmony in the world."

Yes, this is undoubtedly true. But we must have balance in our lives-- prayer is good for that. If I ever became a brahmacarya or sannyasi, it would be a while from now. I wouldn't do it if the people supporting me didn't want to support me. There's a Buddhist monastery near the Idaho/Washington border here in the states, the Sravasti Abbey, which lives on the generosity, or dana, of the community. Check out sravastiabbey.org if you're interested in reading about it. They explain why they operate the way they do, better than I can in a few words from memory, but one, they also give everything they have for free, and spread the Dhamma, and two, it is good for people to give, it accumulates merit, good karma, good association, or whatever. Or in Vaisnavism, as it says in the Gita, Krishna will leave us with everything we have, and supply us what we lack.

Anyway I've been drawn to renunciation all my life. And there are different types. I didn't make any progress in my argument with my friend (do you ever make progress in arguments??), but one thing I mentioned there was Milarepa. To me, Mila represents so much-- enlightenment, beauty, wisdom, truth, philosophy, psychology, spirituality, philosophy...and to me he is one of the greatest persons ever to have lived. So when I read him I get more and more respect for him, since what he says rings true to me very deeply. One thing he said was that the very best thing you can do is to give up everything, absolutely, and then live in caves and on mountains, forsaking discipleship and mastership, and any worldly relationship. I forget what the second best one is, but he goes down the line like that. But a yogi like Mila does not take very much or anything from the people-- he lives on roots and grass, or berries...I don't know. But that's just a counter perspective...it makes no progress in an argument with one who thinks this is a dereliction of duty. But I think it is a higher platform than one which measures out and weighs every action, every path, the value of the paths. For me the happiest I might be is wandering the woods, searching for Krishna, living as mystically as possible and searching for other worlds, searching for the mysterious Self and living in the unitive state of love, if I could. Living under the sky, in nature, because I loved the leaves so much. You see, I don't think I've abandoned anyone...it isn't conditioned thinking that makes me want to do this, it is conditioned thinking that always has me calculating and worrying about my karma. And in the end, perhaps the religious devotees you speak of, listening to the Gurus, perhaps they are materially minded and calculating; I make no opinion about them, they are phantoms of phantoms to me, I only know of them as you spoke of them. But prayer and study of scriptures is important to gain immortality...a more important thing is our intelligence, or fortune, our mind...but study and meditation are so very important...I'm not saying no action; everyone should simply continue following their heart...I give up, I guess I'm very tired...well...the other thing is, keep your eyes and heart open, people can change, in an instant. I see absolutely no obstacle to the enlightenment of any person I've known.

[Shield&Sword]

Recently i saw 2 interesting articles, and i would like to share it with you, and i think they matter the subject here.
http://www.med.uio.no/iasp/files/papers/Bertolote.pdf
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

The second one is a journal.
From these 2 studies we can find how much important prayer is. and believing in God.

[ampoule]

Prayer is not a waste of time for me. It helps me center. It calms me. It opens me. It teaches me. It nourishes me. It moves me. Pretty selfish, huh? But then, it really isn't all about me. I pray that all of those things that prayer does for me will help me be a vessel, perhaps even an answer to someone else's prayer.

[blazeofglory]

On my way home I saw a homeless man and asked him if he was hungry. "Yes, very hungry and very thirsty." So I told him I would come back in 15 or 20 minutes with some food. I brought him grapes, half a banana, cantaloupe and some nice cheese and crackers. I only mention this because in doing this errand, I felt something very nice, more benefit spiritually than if I had spent the time meditating or chanting. But it was because of the time I do spend meditating and chanting that I would feel this spirituality. I did this errand automatically and on my way doing so, I was thinking of these words by Vivekananda, "This is the gist of all worship: to be pure and to do good to others. He who sees Shiva in the poor, in the weak, and in the diseased, really worships Shiva. And if he sees Shiva only in the image, his worship is but preliminary. He who has served and helped one poor man seeing Shiva in him, without thinking of his caste or creed or race or anything, with him Shiva is more please than with the man who sees Him only in temples."

And I was in a bit of an argument with a friend of mine earlier this evening, about this very thing, or something similar-- whether to live as a hermit in solitude or to live in the city, fulfilling some vocation, of service to God, to God's children. I argue very rarely. I don't find it very enjoyable, and usually I am silent. Anyway in America, Blazeofglory, things are very different. There are less temples and except in rare cases you will not see thousands in temples listening to an uninterrupted master. You might see thousands in a football or baseball stadium, though. I see your point though, and it seems to me spiritual realization should be more spontaneous than that-- it shouldn't be based on material gains and merits (such as initiations, perhaps). It is because of the unquestioning aspect of it that there can be certain "wrong" ideas that get propagated. To me the highest teaching is a complete process of revelation, always overturning whatever is in existence, so you can never say that someone is spiritually attained because they do things a certain way; because any "way" is always a limiting one. And then there is the dread dogmatism, and all that. But here we are discussing in general the spiritual practice of many individuals, and judging it to be insufficient; in truth, this is a very ignorant platform to stand on. It might be right, but it's probably wrong.

"If God really exists and renders us the freedom of choice as commonly believed in many religious communities, all he wants is to set harmony in the world."

Yes, this is undoubtedly true. But we must have balance in our lives-- prayer is good for that. If I ever became a brahmacarya or sannyasi, it would be a while from now. I wouldn't do it if the people supporting me didn't want to support me. There's a Buddhist monastery near the Idaho/Washington border here in the states, the Sravasti Abbey, which lives on the generosity, or dana, of the community. Check out sravastiabbey.org if you're interested in reading about it. They explain why they operate the way they do, better than I can in a few words from memory, but one, they also give everything they have for free, and spread the Dhamma, and two, it is good for people to give, it accumulates merit, good karma, good association, or whatever. Or in Vaisnavism, as it says in the Gita, Krishna will leave us with everything we have, and supply us what we lack.

Anyway I've been drawn to renunciation all my life. And there are different types. I didn't make any progress in my argument with my friend (do you ever make progress in arguments??), but one thing I mentioned there was Milarepa. To me, Mila represents so much-- enlightenment, beauty, wisdom, truth, philosophy, psychology, spirituality, philosophy...and to me he is one of the greatest persons ever to have lived. So when I read him I get more and more respect for him, since what he says rings true to me very deeply. One thing he said was that the very best thing you can do is to give up everything, absolutely, and then live in caves and on mountains, forsaking discipleship and mastership, and any worldly relationship. I forget what the second best one is, but he goes down the line like that. But a yogi like Mila does not take very much or anything from the people-- he lives on roots and grass, or berries...I don't know. But that's just a counter perspective...it makes no progress in an argument with one who thinks this is a dereliction of duty. But I think it is a higher platform than one which measures out and weighs every action, every path, the value of the paths. For me the happiest I might be is wandering the woods, searching for Krishna, living as mystically as possible and searching for other worlds, searching for the mysterious Self and living in the unitive state of love, if I could. Living under the sky, in nature, because I loved the leaves so much. You see, I don't think I've abandoned anyone...it isn't conditioned thinking that makes me want to do this, it is conditioned thinking that always has me calculating and worrying about my karma. And in the end, perhaps the religious devotees you speak of, listening to the Gurus, perhaps they are materially minded and calculating; I make no opinion about them, they are phantoms of phantoms to me, I only know of them as you spoke of them. But prayer and study of scriptures is important to gain immortality...a more important thing is our intelligence, or fortune, our mind...but study and meditation are so very important...I'm not saying no action; everyone should simply continue following their heart...I give up, I guess I'm very tired...well...the other thing is, keep your eyes and heart open, people can change, in an instant. I see absolutely no obstacle to the enlightenment of any person I've known.

In point of fact I agree with you. I said prayer is a waste of time totally in a different context. I believe that chanting the Vedas and the slokas of the Bhagbat Gita is a really soothing thing. I myself did a lot in my babyhood atogether with my parents. I had a great spiritual feeling, and I am saying this out of pride but out of humility. I was a great devotee of Lord Krishna and I am in essence still, dear Nikolai. But now with age I have seen different situations and differences. Of course in the name of religions more acts of violence are done. I have seen so many Gurus totally engaging themselves in prayer and amassing great amounts of wealth and indeed this is not a spiritual way.

Yet if one presents oneself the way you did with a heart of kindness and chants I like that way.

Nikolai, even if I am less religious now, I am not less spiritual. I am not much materialist.

Nikolai, India had a great resoirvoir of spirituality and it has some of the best spiritual texts and treasures. But the point is people are not spiritual in the real sense.

Nikolai, my idea of spirituality is a little different than what generally conceived and having said so I do not want to present myself arrogantly. I am more with my weaknesses and maybe with more dogmas, and stuffing the mind with rubbish.

Niklai, at my heart I know, and am fully convinced of the fact that a woodcutter, or a peasant working on his farm are more spirtually uplifted than I am for they live on their hard work and I depend upon others.

In India and Nepal people think they are more spirtual than those in the west, but I hold the contrary opinion. In the west though there is more abundance and plentifulness people engage in charitable works. There is no such examples in Inida.

Nikolai, now I think I am clear. I am not against prayer in this sense, but the way it is missued.

[blazeofglory]

I often heard it mentioned in religious texts many a time. Purgation is a method used in cleansing ourselves of impurities and of course of negative emotions.

Man in point of fact can keep his mind clean more by involving in charitable works than doing prayer and worshiping.

In fact if this planet is the temple of God, we should keep clean and pure and livable.

Indulging simply works of prayuruer, and worship or offeering lots of funds to Gurus is not an act of spirituality.

Let us be spiritual by being more generous than living like arrrogants.

[B-Mental]

Blaze, my friend, I told a story to my friend from Nigeria. I was homeless living in my car, and I went to town to buy groceries on my day off. I saw a homeless man, and I asked if he needed a ride. He said, "No, I really need some money to get something to eat. I gave him half a bag of oranges, about 6 or so. I said, "Try to sell these then." He asked, "Do you mind, if I eat them instead?" I looked at him, and replied, "They are yours now. Do as you see fit." He replied to me "Bless you my friend."

My muslim friend, Abdullah, looked at me. He told me, "That is the greatest blessing you can recieve!" My reply was, "If Allah wills it." I know in my heart of hearts that he is right. I always will seek counsel in your words of wisdom. Peace be to you, my brother. B

[B-Mental]

Well, I believe in direct prayer on the behalf of others. I am too modest to ask God for anything. In general, my meditation is a way through the constant pain of everyday life. I focus on the pain, and I can see a peaceful image of something in nature that God created. It brings a calm to my soul, and comfort to my pains to rejoice in the beauty of the world around us.

[El Viejo]

That depends on whether one is Adam or Eve. :D

Clever. Sometimes it's only sin when you do it, and not I (or vice versa). You're statement is succinct, but would you care to elaborate?

[El Viejo]

Recently i saw 2 interesting articles, and i would like to share it with you, and i think they matter the subject here.
http://www.med.uio.no/iasp/files/papers/Bertolote.pdf
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

The second one is a journal.
From these 2 studies we can find how much important prayer is. and believing in God.

The studies show a correlation with faith, of any sort, and lower suicide rates.

What the studies don't show is the 'why.' The religious tend to fill that space with positive conclusions about religion, particularly their own.

It's a reasonable hypothesis that religion offers the practitioner something.

But, not to be derisive, so did Dumbo's magic feather. Or, rather, his faith in it.

Before we can talk about the importance of prayer or God we have to understand how they benefit people.

As for the higher suicide rate among non-believers: it's hard making that transition when you let go of the feather, or when it's torn from your grasp. Hard, but liberating if you can do it.

[brakeonthroo]

Dude, what you call sin, I call human nature. Wake up and smell the coffee

[Redzeppelin]

Dude, what you call sin, I call human nature. Wake up and smell the coffee

Easy does it, Mr. Newbie - you're entitled to your opinion, but not to respond to someone as if their opinion is the product of some form of ignorance (here: sleeping).

What you call "human nature" I call sin. To call it "human nature" is to validate it as a natural behavior. Perhaps; but, Christianity teaches that human nature is what it is because of the contamination of sin. If it were human nature to steal, then why does it strike even thieves as wrong when it happens to them? If it is human nature for men to "spread their seed" as far and wide as they can, then why is unfaithfulness so painful to both sexes? I would suggest that if these behaviors were fully natural, then they wouldn't cause us emotional pain; the emotional pain that we experience suggests that what comes "naturally" may not necessarily be the way things should be.

That's the short answer.

[hellsapoppin]

"Prayer is a waste of time"


Some Judeo-Christian adherents believe that the mere recitation of words which to some constitute prayer is, indeed, a waste of time and is irreverent. Instead, they feel, that real "prayer" consists in doing good deeds for others. I am reminded of Jesus's words to his followers when he said, "follow me" rather than pray to me. "Follow my example" was what he taught. True, he spent 40 days/nights in supplication prior to his ministry. But that ministry was one made up of action, not in mere supplication.

A Jewish friend of mine passed away many years ago. She once told me that her greatest desire in life was to be a good Jew. And that, to her, meant doing good deeds each and every day. A day spent without doing a good deed was a wasted day. This was how she "prayed" every day.

What a fine example people like her set for everyone.

[NikolaiI]

"Prayer is a waste of time"


Some Judeo-Christian adherents believe that the mere recitation of words which to some constitute prayer is, indeed, a waste of time and is irreverent. Instead, they feel, that real "prayer" consists in doing good deeds for others. I am reminded of Jesus's words to his followers when he said, "follow me" rather than pray to me. "Follow my example" was what he taught. True, he spent 40 days/nights in supplication prior to his ministry. But that ministry was one made up of action, not in mere supplication.

A Jewish friend of mine passed away many years ago. She once told me that her greatest desire in life was to be a good Jew. And that, to her, meant doing good deeds each and every day. A day spent without doing a good deed was a wasted day. This was how she "prayed" every day.

What a fine example people like her set for everyone.

Assuming that prayer does nothing, then yes. . . it is a complete waste of time. Assuming that what we think and what we pray has no effect at all, then yes, our actions and words are all that matter.

[Redzeppelin]

Most theologians and studiers-of-the-Bible will tell you that Jesus' ability to do the amazing things he did was due to the fact that he spent significant amounts of time in communion (i.e. prayer) with his Father (God). The Gospels mention a number of times where Jesus went into seclusion to pray and spend time with God - most notably in Gethsemane prior to the ordeal of his Crucifixion. I don't dispute the positves of good actions, but the Bible speaks of having a relationship with God - you cannot have a relationship with someone you do not talk to. Based even on our own human relationships as an example - that point would seem pretty clear.