What was the star?

[Wintermute]

"When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was." Mat 2:9

I'm as agnostic as they come--a happy fence sitter. I've never seen, felt, smelled or in any other way sensed a God. Nor have witnessed a UFO or anything paranormal. But setting aside my doubts about the historical accuracy of the Bible, and granting that the above event did physically occur, what do y'all think it was? Certainly not an actual star because we'd be vaporized. What was the light source that these folks saw? It must have been relatively close to the surface of the planet in order to be perceived to be 'standing over' a particular location. Any ideas? An angel? Swamp gas? This has always bugged me so I thought I'd ask.

Cheers,
Doug

[Sarasvati21]

Many astronomers have also looked into this phenomenon, and by tracing the location of each planet and star back to that night, they have formed a well-supported hypothesis that the "star" was actually two planets in close conjunction with one another. The two most likely planets are Jupiter and Venus. The conjunction happened, they say, near Regulus, the brightest star in the constellation Leo, which would have also added to the "star's" astounding light. If you would like to read more about it, here is an article I found from Indiana University.

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/1203.html

[Wintermute]

Yeah Sarasvati, I've heard that. The problem is the Bible says it "stood over where the young child was." First of all, the stars, as viewed from a spinning earth, are moving. Second, how can a planet (or two and a star) stand over something on the surface of the earth. Try it. Go outside, spot a bright star that appears to be directly over an object--say a house up the block. Then walk to that house. Will the star till appear to be over the house? I'm not convinced this is the answer. Also the bible says it "went before them". This implies movement. Doesn't it?

[El Viejo]

Yeah Sarasvati, I've heard that. The problem is the Bible says it "stood over where the young child was." First of all, the stars, as viewed from a spinning earth, are moving. Second, how can a planet (or two and a star) stand over something on the surface of the earth. Try it. Go outside, spot a bright star that appears to be directly over an object--say a house up the block. Then walk to that house. Will the star till appear to be over the house? I'm not convinced this is the answer. Also the bible says it "went before them". This implies movement. Doesn't it?

It sounds like a case of a story improving with time. Unless deliberately shut off, a person's BS-o-meter instantly picks up on things like stars moving, then stopping, or planetary conjunctions that last a couple of years rather than a few days. It would also wonder why it was a big surprise, why no one noticed the stately waltz of heavenly bodies moving slowly into conjunction.

I'll buy a conjunction that more or less coincided with The Birth, but not the rest.

[kiki1982]

I'm no astronomer, but I think some have ushered that it was a comet. (Haley's comet?). It only occurs once every so many years and it has a tail, which is consistent with the bible.
According to superstition it would trigger strange things to happen. This thing was certainly strange enough... ;)

[Sarasvati21]

I certainly don't know what it was; I was just telling you what some of the scientists say.

[byquist]

I'm as agnostic as they come--a happy fence sitter. I've never seen, felt, smelled or in any other way sensed a God.

Cheers,
Doug

Not a comment about the star business, but why make a drastic jolt or a required big sign be a criteria to be open to the idea of God? Maybe the fact that you've seen a sunset, felt happy fence sitting, and smelled a baked apple pie should be enough to give at least 2% credence to God. I don't need much more than to see my dog's wagging tail when she knows she's getting a romp in the mountain to sense that God exists. Why would God have to be so distinct from everyday evidence of good?

About the star, I guess I'd refer to Hamlet when he tells his chum, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." In other words, there is some way that heaven and earth operate in conjunction with each other that we know little about, and there's some power controlling the operation, but what the hell, it ain't gonna match the way we rationally think things through to conclusions in this world.

[Wintermute]

Not a comment about the star business, but why make a drastic jolt or a required big sign be a criteria to be open to the idea of God? Maybe the fact that you've seen a sunset, felt happy fence sitting, and smelled a baked apple pie should be enough to give at least 2% credence to God.

Hi Byquist,

Shoot, I'm a lot more than 2% on the creator side. In fact, I'm exactly 50%. If I was anything else, I'd fall off the fence!

Now you didn't mention which God you are advocating. If it is the Christian God (or for that matter any othe human religious construct) I would say that my acceptance is way less than 2%. The simple fact that the universe is, is enough to convince me that there is something amazing going on. I just don't think it cares if I eat meat on Friday or have sex with a member of my own gender. Then again, being agnostic, I could be wrong.

The star business is intersting to me, as is the whirlwind Ezekiel saw and the piller of cloud and flame that helped out Moses. It seems the Christian God is a fan of atmospheric phenomena, and I was just curious of what folks thought about it.

Doug

[byquist]

Hi Byquist,

Shoot, I'm a lot more than 2% on the creator side. In fact, I'm exactly 50%. If I was anything else, I'd fall off the fence!

Now you didn't mention which God you are advocating.

If it is the Christian God (or for that matter any othe human religious construct) I would say that my acceptance is way less than 2%.

The star business is intersting to me, as is the whirlwind Ezekiel saw and the piller of cloud and flame that helped out Moses. It seems the Christian God is a fan of atmospheric phenomena, and I was just curious of what folks thought about it.


Doug

Good sense of humor!! I regret, so forget, my prior implication!

All people should follow their own intuitions and inspirations. Total charitableness should be the standard between different perspectives.

Primitive Christianity, the original stuff, has a lot to offer: healing from disease, safety from lions, being safe from shipwreck. Not a bad deal there.

Good point about the weather, also the "not in the whirlwind but in the still small voice," water found in the desert, Jesus stilling the storm.

[chrismythoi]

in terms of a biblical explanation, you should look to exodus where the jews were led by god's 'glory', meaning a demonstartion of his power.
the gospel is probably aware of this tradition and refers to it, and hence there was no star, just an author saying jesus was blessed in some divine way

[Wintermute]

Hi Chrismythoi,

By "God's glory", do you mean:

"And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night" Exd 13:21

I wonder why so specific about the cloud and the fire? And that it apparently emitted photons (gave them light).

Are you saying that the star was a writer's way of visually representing the glory of God, and that there really was no star (or other light source) that went before them and guided them to the baby Jesus?

Doug

[Wintermute]

Another thought this weekend. I suppose that the Christian God, being omnipotent, could have simply manipulated the neurons in the folks' brains to make them 'see' the moving star. Maybe there never was an actual phenomenon--only in the minds of the beholders.

Oh, also, was there a story in the New Testament where Jesus was called on to attend to a young person on the brink of death. When he arrived at the household he went to the sick person's room and was able to heal him/her. As I recall, he was carrying something and asked the parents not to discuss what had happened in the sick room. I'm pretty sure I read this in the Bible, but I couldn't find it the other day when I looked for it. Am I just dreaming this? If not, could you please direct me to the verse? Thanks in advance.

Doug

[B-Mental]

I'm no astronomer, but I think some have ushered that it was a comet. (Haley's comet?). It only occurs once every so many years and it has a tail, which is consistent with the bible.
According to superstition it would trigger strange things to happen. This thing was certainly strange enough... ;)

I tend to agree with this, but I won't qualify the actual star. I think it may have been a shooting star, but these are omens both. The wise men were wealthy men, kings, but the arts and sciences were only practiced those days by men (kind of sexist don't you think?) of leisure. The real question for me is what were the kingdoms of these men? I think they represent the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[Wintermute]

I tend to agree with this, but I won't qualify the actual star. I think it may have been a shooting star, but these are omens both..

That still doesn't answer how this object was able to guide these guys to a particular location on the planet's surface. Try it B-Mental, go outside tonight and pick any object in the sky--planet, star, galaxy, etc. Walk to the object--house, tree, car, etc. that it appears to be over. It will no longer appear to be so. As for an omen...I have no idea what you mean. Are you saying that all comets (shooting stars) are omens? Or just this one?


The wise men were wealthy men, kings, but the arts and sciences were only practiced those days by men (kind of sexist don't you think?) of leisure.

And this has to do with what the physical characteristics of the 'star' that guided them how? I'm sorry, I don't understand. Could you please elaborate? Thanks.


The real question for me is what were the kingdoms of these men? I think they represent the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Hehe, well then perhaps you should start your own thread addressing this question--because its not the 'real question' being addressed in this one. I don't even know what it means.

Doug

[Wintermute]

Another star reference I found last night:

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star." Rev 22:16

I wonder if this refers to Venus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus):

"Venus reaches its maximum brightness shortly before sunrise or shortly after sunset, for which reason it is often called the Morning Star or the Evening Star."

Or the sun, which is really the morning star because you can't have morning without it.

I'm guessing it refers to the sun. Because, Jesus would be omnicient so he would know that Venus was not a star and wouldn't refer to it wrongly, otherwise he would be wrong--which apparently doesn't happen.

Anyway, I'm going to continue my exploration into cosmic references in sacred texts and will post anything I find here. I know it's not the sort of deeply philosophic, cerebral discussions common on this group-but I'm interested and perhaps someone else may be. Plus it does relate to written religious text. Not simply a "my way is the right way" kind of discussion.

Doug

[Wintermute]

Here is a funny one:

"Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon." Act 7:43

Apparently Remphan was some sort of God worshiped by the less 'enlightened' Isrealites. From what I can gather, his 'star' was actually the planet Saturn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remphan). I couldn't really find anything about the attributes of Remphan--what he represented; was he good or evil; where did he originate? If anyone has any insight I'd love to hear it.

I wonder why folks associated their gods with the stars and planets? The Eqyptians and Greeks seemed to be the leaders in these astronomical links. I shall persue my line of study. Perhaps other religions have cosmic references?

Doug

[Wintermute]

I've learned a new word from this one!

"And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. " Gen 37:9

Obeisance: respectful gesture: a gesture of respect or deference, e.g. a bow of the head

Now apparently this dream came to a fellow named Joseph. I did read quite a few verses before and after this one, but for the life of me can't understand what it's about--there's a lot of stuff about goats and killing them and soaking peoples clothes in the blood--yuck. I was wondering if this was the same Joseph of Joseph & Mary fame. Are there any bible knowledgable folks around that can enlighten me.

Oh, and why eleven stars?

Thanks for any information,
Doug

[Whifflingpin]

This is an Old Testament Joseph, son of Jacob.

The eleven stars represent his brothers, ten of whom were very jealous of him.

[Wintermute]

This is an Old Testament Joseph, son of Jacob.

The eleven stars represent his brothers, ten of whom were very jealous of him.

Thanks for the info Whifflingpin! I went back and read a little further and I see that you are correct. Its no wonder that the were jealous because apparenly old Jacob loved Joseph more than the others. He gave him special gifts. And indeed Joseph would recount dreams to his brothers where they were almost worshiping him. Seems a little mean spirited to me.

Are these common metaphors in the bible?

Stars = siblings
Moon = Mother
Sun = Father

Or is this a one time shot, purely related to Joseph's dream? Seems like I need to read some more. Thanks again Whiff.

[Wintermute]

I remember Carl Sagan telling me that there were more stars in the universe than grains of sand on the earth. Apparently Jeremiah or whoever wrote this part of the Bible thought similarly:


As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. Jer 33:22

One estimate (http://www.visindavefur.hi.is/svar.asp?id=4803) of the number of grains of sand on the planet assumes if we spread all the sand across the surface to a depth of 10cm there would be about 6.63 × 10^22 grains.

NASA (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970115.html) thinks there are about 10^21 (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) stars in the visible universe.

The highest estimate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population) for total number of people that have existed on this planet is about 125 X 10^9 (125 Billion).

I'm thinking if Jeremiah is correct then we have a long way to go until 'the end'.

[Wintermute]

Well, no one seems to interested in this monologous thread, so I think I should end here. Perhaps I should start a blog somewhere, lol. Anyway, one more and I'm gone:


And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. Jos 10:13

Now that seems pretty omnipotent to me. If the Christian God can really stop the earth from spinning and then start it back up at will I will jump down off my agnostic fence and worship him/her/it as he/she/it apprently desires. I took physics a long time ago, and I wondered what would happen if the earth suddenly stopped spinning. I'm thinking that there would be no centrifugal force to counter the gravitational force and we would be instantly splattered on the surface like bugs on a winshield.

Anyway, as Doug Adams said, "So long, and thanks for all the fish!"

[brakeonthroo]

I call the religious books, the Star Wars of the people in the old days. There is some truth to them, but they are 90 percent comics