Naturalism in Brit Lit???

[SleepyWitch]

hey guys, I'm binging on Jane Austen at the moment and I'm thirsting for a book with lots of blood, booze and poverty to read afterwards. so I was wondering is there Naturalism in Brit Lit at all? Are there any British Naturalist novels? It's got to be Brit Lit because I'll take my graduation exams in Brit Lit. but if you'd like to recommend an American Naturalist novel, it's OK, too. THANKS :p

[JBI]

The closest thing I think British literature has to naturalism is probably Thomas Hardy. But for the real naturalism, I think you would have to get a translation of Emile Zola (French). No attempts at anything resembling naturalism come close to Zola.

[SleepyWitch]

thanks JBI :) I was going to read Hardy after Austen anyway as part of my long slog through the 19th century.
why is there no Naturalism in Brit Lit? Did Realism suffice to knock out their tender psyches?

[JBI]

Naturalism came at the end of realism, and as Modernism was about to be kicked off. During that time Victorian literature was prevalent, and modernist literature was getting ready. Society wasn't the same in England as in France (because of all the men who died in colonial wars, and therefore created a surplus of women), and therefore the English audience wasn't really ready to accept naturalism the same way as France. Plus the fact that naturalism was a rather minor movement compared to the movements it was sandwiched in between. I would argue that when someone says naturalist, they are essentially saying like Zola, since he is by far the only true example.

[Kafka's Crow]

Read Zola's Germinale or La Debacle (or any of Les Rougon-Macquart novels for that matter). I read them when I was studying 'Eng Lit' but I consider myself lucky that I made that choice. There is no true exponent of naturalism in English Literature. If you want a gory book, read Germinale, it has some of the most graphic scenes of mob-violence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Rougon-Macquart

[rachel_bookworm]

The closest thing I think British literature has to naturalism is probably Thomas Hardy.

Yes I agree Hardy is known for his use of naturalism in the majority of his novels. Tess of the D'Urbervilles is about the conflict between nature and the forecoming industrial wave. Excellent book, with a nice love story to throw in :D

[kiki1982]

There are a few writers in dutch who wrote naturalisticly.

Marcellus Emants (Juffrouw Lina- Miss Lina)
Cyriel Buysse (Het gezin van Paemel- The family of Paemel, a play)
Stijn Streuvels
Louis Couperus (Eline Vere and Van oude mensen, de dingen die voorbij gaan... - Of old people, the things that pass...)

Maybe they have been translated in english or another language. Louis Couperus has certainly been translated, as there is an add about him on wikipedia...

[barbara0207]

I don't know about naturalists in Brit lit either. But if you want poverty, booze and a bit of blood or violence, you might read "Angela's Ashes" by Frank McCourt or "Dubliners" by James Joyce.

[JBI]

I don't know about naturalists in Brit lit either. But if you want poverty, booze and a bit of blood or violence, you might read "Angela's Ashes" by Frank McCourt or "Dubliners" by James Joyce.

Neither of those are naturalist. I haven't read Angela's Ashes, but I know for a fact Dubliners is very, very far way from naturalism.

[barbara0207]

Neither of those are naturalist. I haven't read Angela's Ashes, but I know for a fact Dubliners is very, very far way from naturalism.

Of course they're not naturalist. But as there don't seem to be any in Brit lit (at least no good ones) and Sleepy is in desperate need of booze, poverty and blood, I suggested these two books. :p

[SleepyWitch]

thanks barbara. I've already read Angela's Ashes, 'Tis and Teacher Man.
but I'll give the Dubliners a go :)

[nebish]

Stephen Crane, especially "The Red Badge of Courage"; American naturalism.

[SleepyWitch]

Stephen Crane, especially "The Red Badge of Courage"; American naturalism.

thanks :)

[Virgil]

I can recommend quite a few American naturalists. As to British, Hardy and George Eliot come to mind, and even DH. Lawrence uses naturalism, though he goes beyond it. As to American novelists, yes, Stephan Crane, but i think Maggie: A Girl of the Streets would fit your criteria more than Red Badge. Other writers to look into: Theodore Drieser and Frank Norris and Edith Wharton and Jack London. It seems like American writers were more captivated by naturalism than British. One novel which I really enjoyed (although perhaps not quite naturalism, but certainly along those elements) is James T. Farrell's Studs Lonigan trilogy.

[SleepyWitch]

thanks Virge :)
what, Edith Wharton is a Naturalist? How did I manage to read both The Age of Innocence and Ethan Frome and not notice? :blush: yeah, I guess Ethan Frome is quite Naturalist.

[Virgil]

thanks Virge :)
what, Edith Wharton is a Naturalist? How did I manage to read both The Age of Innocence and Ethan Frome and not notice? :blush: yeah, I guess Ethan Frome is quite Naturalist.

Yes, Ethan Frome is defintely naturalist. Wharton I think spans various movements.

[Virgil]

Oh one other thing. I couldn't remember George Gissing's name before when i was trying to list British naturalists. He's somewhat overlooked these days. I remember him because I had a professor in school who specialized in Gissing's novels. I guess if you've never heard of him before you can read a little about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gissing.

[Janine]

Virgil, if Sleepy is "I'm thirsting for a book with lots of blood, booze and poverty" wouldn't D.H.Lawrence fit the bill with "Sons and Lovers"?....there is booze and some poverty and L's 'blood consciousness' ideas, but then maybe she means murder/blood/violence - what say, SleepyWitch?
Dickens had all three of those elements in "A Tale of Two Cities", but I guess he is not considered naturalistic(?). What exactly is the definition of a 'naturalistic' author?

[SleepyWitch]

thanks Virge and Janine. nah, Dickens is fairy tales :D
I tried to read that book by Lawrence once but I couldn#t get into it. I've taken out Tess of the D'urbervilles by Hardy now and started reading it. It's a nice change from Austen :)

[kiki1982]

@Janine:

Naturalism came out of realism. Realists believed in describing life, everyday things etc. Natrualists made them negative. Of course it was easy as conditions in cities, factories, among farmers and workers could be called horendous.
A typical naturalist story:
A woman, believing she is 'the beaken of common sense and good advice', goes out of service to marry. She leaves her daughter, who was the result of a former marriage, behind with their mistress. The woman who married is not happy. After a while the daughter turns up, pregnant with the child of the son of the house she served in. She is the last girl in the long line of pregnant ones... In the mean time the mistress comes to 'visit' the woman who married, but just laughes at her for being so naive. The story ends with mother and daughter commiting suicide by jumping under a train. This story was beautifully written by Emants, in dutch.
Of course it doesn't all have to be about working conditions and such. It can also be about bad habits like gambling (ending in bankrupcy and suicide, of course) or about someone realising he's not that fantastic after all. In all, actually the unhappy findings of people...

I heard some more people actaully who thought that there were some naturalist elements in Dickens' work. Although there is a positive note, hopeful element towards the end of the story. Like Scrooge becomming a goodman and Oliver Twist finding back his family. I don't know his work very well, but it's possible that towards the end of his work, towards the time he died, there can have been some naturalist influence. It was around 1870, around the time he died, that naturalism started, with Thérèse Raquin (Zola, 1867) being the first ever naturalist book.

[Janine]

kiki, Thanks for the explanation and distinctions. How about Evelyn Waugh or Forster? Thinking of "Bride's Head Revisited" and then of "Howard's End", for Forster, or even "Passage to India" - that dealt with classes being put down and poverty - but those two might be a little too cheery:lol: If it was not English, I would say the Russians and Chekhov would be on the list. Am I right?

SleepyWitch, I think Hardy is a good choice, anyday. I read nearly all his work. Tess is one of my favorites!

[SirRaustusBear]

Naturalism isn't simply realism with a negative twist. Naturalism started when psychology and evolution were first coming to light, and naturalism suggests that people's lives are out of their control. Not because of fate, but because our genetics and how we are raised determine our psychology which in turn, combined with our environment, determines how we will live. Naturalism is about the inability to escape the hand one was dealt.

[SleepyWitch]

Naturalism isn't simply realism with a negative twist. Naturalism started when psychology and evolution were first coming to light, and naturalism suggests that people's lives are out of their control. Not because of fate, but because our genetics and how we are raised determine our psychology which in turn, combined with our environment, determines how we will live. Naturalism is about the inability to escape the hand one was dealt.
that's a great definition :)

Janine, I've got started on Tess (taking a break from Austen's Emma) and I'm loving every minute of it. I've already read 71 pages since yesterday afternoon. :) (thank God I'm on vacation)

[Lote-Tree]

I'm thirsting for a book with lots of blood, booze and poverty to read afterwards.


Do you have to read about it sleepy?

You can see it on your tv screens, walk into your local ghetto.


People read books to get away from it all!!!

[Janine]

that's a great definition :)

Janine, I've got started on Tess (taking a break from Austen's Emma) and I'm loving every minute of it. I've already read 71 pages since yesterday afternoon. :) (thank God I'm on vacation)

Terrific book. I am a huge Hardy fan. I emersed myself in most of his novels a few years back, buying up most of his books when I could. I also love the film adaptations from his novels. I own on video: "Mayor of Casterbridge" (old and newer version), "The Woodlanders", "Return of the Native", "Tess of the D'Urbervilles", "Far From the Madding Crowd"....They are all great and I have watched them all many times over.....also, all of those novels of Hardy's are wonderful; once you begin reading them, I guarentee - you won't be able to put them down! Hardy is very naturalistic, but his stories are plot driven as well and comprised of many interesting 'twists and turns', which makes them so fascinating to read. Many are actually based on true stories that Hardy heard of or knew about. I have read some things on Hardy's biography since a good friend of mine is making a life study of the author.
Good choice, SleepyWitch:thumbs_up Enjoy your book!

[SleepyWitch]

Do you have to read about it sleepy?

You can see it on your tv screens, walk into your local ghetto.


People read books to get away from it all!!!

heheh, good old Lote. I live in what comes close to a ghetto... well not really, but it's the worst place I've lived in so far.
heheh, yep, sometimes I like to get away from "it all" but too much escapism makes me want to puke :sick:

[Lote-Tree]

heheh, yep, sometimes I like to get away from "it all" but too much escapism makes me want to puke :sick:

Then perhaps you are not excersing your imagination enough ;-)

But don't worry when I perfect my "Human-Consciouness Uploader Version 5.0 you will have the ability upload your consciouness into CyberSpace and there we shall explore the limitlessness of the imaginations :D

P.S I am neither Good or Old ;-)

[SleepyWitch]

Then perhaps you are not excersing your imagination enough ;-)

But don't worry when I perfect my "Human-Consciouness Uploader Version 5.0 you will have the ability upload your consciouness into CyberSpace and there we shall explore the limitlessness of the imaginations :D

P.S I am neither Good or Old ;-)

ok, bad young Lote?
hahah, I think my imagination is OK, but you can hardly expect me to read all Austen books in a row without longing for some change in between?

[Lote-Tree]

ok, bad young Lote?
hahah, I think my imagination is OK, but you can hardly expect me to read all Austen books in a row without longing for some change in between?

I guess you have point there!

Too much Jane Austen's would drive any man let alone Darcy, insane!

[barbara0207]

Oh one other thing. I couldn't remember George Gissing's name before when i was trying to list British naturalists. He's somewhat overlooked these days. I remember him because I had a professor in school who specialized in Gissing's novels. I guess if you've never heard of him before you can read a little about him here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gissing.

That's funny. I had thought of Gissing, too, but my professor at university said he was a minor or even bad writer (can't remember, it was such a long time ago, could look it up), so I didn't mention him. I've never read Gissing, though. Have you read him? I've come to know you as a fairly good judge of literature, and it may just be a matter of taste.

[Virgil]

That's funny. I had thought of Gissing, too, but my professor at university said he was a minor or even bad writer (can't remember, it was such a long time ago, could look it up), so I didn't mention him. I've never read Gissing, though. Have you read him? I've come to know you as a fairly good judge of literature, and it may just be a matter of taste.

Well, "bad" is a harsh word. Certainly he's been published (I think over 20 novels) and I haven't. :D But he is not a major novelist. Actually I'm surprsed he was even discussed in Germany. My proefssor who had specialized in him that I mentioned thought he was very much under rated. I don't know. He's got a web site devoted to him: http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/english/Gissing/Gissing_HomePage.htm. I read one novel, I can't remember which, and it was ok. He had basically the same ideas as other writers of his era and outlook, which goes to show you it's not the ideas that make a great writer, but the writing ability.

[Janine]

Well, "bad" is a harsh word. Certainly he's been published (I think over 20 novels) and I haven't. :D But he is not a major novelist. Actually I'm surprsed he was even discussed in Germany. My proefssor who had specialized in him that I mentioned thought he was very much under rated. I don't know. He's got a web site devoted to him: http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/english/Gissing/Gissing_HomePage.htm. I read one novel, I can't remember which, and it was ok. He had basically the same ideas as other writers of his era and outlook, which goes to show you it's not the ideas that make a great writer, but the writing ability.

It is strange you mention Gissing. I didn't know who you were talking about at first, Virgil, and then I looked him up online and saw he had written "The Odd Women"...Strange since a friend of mine in MI, mailed me some books she no longer needed awhile back, and that one was included. I was thinking that Gissing was a woman, and I had not yet gotten around to reading that novel. Really, the title did not quite grab me. I hope to someday try it, but for now - you know, too many books on my priority list.

[barbara0207]

Virgil, thank you for the link. I had a short look at it and found I'm interested enough to go on reading later.

I looked up what my professor said about him. He did not say 'bad writer' but sees him as a minor writer in comparison to Hardy, Dickens etc. However, he places Gissing above novelists like Humphrey Ward, Walter Besant and Arthur Morrison (all of whom seem to be mostly forgotten nowadays).

He says that on the one hand Gissing emulates the French naturalists, on the other hand shows the characteristic traits of the Victorian novel like intrigue, melodrama, lots of characters, sentimentality and teaching moral values. The professor goes on to say that Gissing neither shows the humour nor the sympathy for his characters like Dickens.

Now, in itself, this judgment need not necessarily be bad. But maybe the missing sympathy appalled most of his contemporaneans, so that could be a reason why he was never a very popular writer.

It seems that one will have to read Gissing oneself to judge him fairly. :)

[trang08]

Can someone identify how naturalism is used in Tess of the D'Urbervilles