Am I a Fattist?

[SleepyWitch]

the other day, my hubbers read out to me a newspaper article about the costs fat people create for the health insurance system and about the dangers of obesity (e.g. type 2 diabetes in children, which has been soaring over here; arteriosclerosis, heart failure, respiratory problems). Due to the number of fat people, life expectancy is increasing at a slower rate in developed countries than it used to. It's still increasing, but the rate has slowed down. Obesity and/or malnutrition has also been repeatedly shown to be linked to poverty.
on the other hand, we often read in the newspapers (English and American ones, at least) that being fat is a "life style choice" and no one should interfere with it and fat people can have happy fulfilling lives etc etc etc. Plus, they tell us, that "chubby" people can be very healthy. YES, I totally agree with that, but there is a difference between chubby and fat. there's also a difference between someone who weighs a lot but is trim because he has lots of muscle and someone who weighs a lot and is all flabby. In my opinion, lots of ppl/media generalize and jump to conclusions on this point "chubby ppl and even some fat ppl can be quite healthy" simply does not mean the same as "all fat ppl are healthy".

So, in my opinion this waffle about a "life style choice" is totally irresponsible. I mean, who choses to be fat before they actually have put on all that weight? Have you ever heard of anyone of average built who said "hurrah, I want to become really fat!"???
what's more, many people are fat because a) they can't afford healthy food (you can buy a 5 kg bag of chips [french fries]at Tesco for a pound, whereas veg is more expensive), b) they don't know about nutrition c) they just don't care enough about themselves and eat,eat, eat out of frustration or some sort of compulsion.
so in my opinion this bla about a "life style choice" is BS when it comes to really fat (overweight and clinically obese ppl). I don't mean ppl with "a few extra kilos" or "chubby" or "slightly overweight ppl") but really fat ones.
I mean, how "happy and fullfilling" can their lives be when they can't do any of the things that make life interesting, like sports, sex, going for a walk and maybe not even work.

so, am I a mean intolerant fattist who doesn't respect fat people's life style choice? did I get it all wrong? what do you guys think about obesity?

[Chava]

Well, in DK we have free health care and so forth, and investigations were made that discovered the financial burden treating lifestyle diseases were. we're talking billions of dollars every year in a population of just over 5 million.

So who should take responsibility for that? the individual? it's frequent in the lower middle class where people have lower education and incmoe. they chose the cheap, poor quality food, and they don't know better, and sometimes can't afford to join fitness clubs.

I think the government has a lot to say. There's been talks of subsidising vegetables and fruit, but the governement chose to decrease price on soda... :O
Meanwhile, smoking is just as big an issue as obesity. The number of treatments for smoking induced health issues is ridiculous. So tell me, why should my taxes go to paying for the lives of people who induce this upon themselves? Is it fair when i myself lead a healthy life? It's tricky no?

I don't think i can blame people for becoming obese. I think there are many processes involved in that. It bothers me when parents let their kids become pbese, and it bothers me that the government is subsidising unhealthy food.
I just fail to see how people can stand it, why they don't do something to change it... (end rant, sorry)

[SleepyWitch]

yeah, I'm a smoker, so I'm not the right person to be throwing stones at fat ppl.
I'm not blaming fat ppl actually. what makes me furious is the media who tell us that it's great to be fat. this kind of attitude just makes it easier for governments to wriggle out of their responsibility and tackle this issue.

my best friend and me run a group for 8-11 y/o kids. last week we took a walk. we walked 3 km. there's this fat little boy in our group and he was totally flushed and panting after only 3 km. the other kids were positively racing and could have walked 3 more km, but his little guy looked as if he was about to have a heart attack! the week before, we made salad and fruit salad and he refused to eat any, saying he'd already eaten at home. seeing as his mother is fat too, I suppose he had something like schnitzel and chips at home. My best friend thinks he's fat because his mother isn't strict enough. like if he goes "bah, I don't like veg", she'll let him off the hook and he doesn't need to eat any. I was tempted to force-feed the salad to him :blush: Next time, I'll do it :( I think this kids actually want to lose weight, but he doesn't know that veg and fruit are healthy, so he thinks he'll lose weight by eating less and ends up eating less of the healthy stuff.

[sprinks]

This is hard becuase it really once again would depend on the individual, like some people that are anorexic they beat their anorexia and gain a lot of weight, maybe not obese but certainly a lot bigger than what is "healthy" and they're happy. They made the choice to gain weight, and I'm sure that this wouldn't be the only situation where people chose to gain a lot of weight.

Then also sometimes you have to take into account peoples body structure. I know many people who say there is no such thing as "big-boned" but in reality if you have really wide hips it's going to be harder to be thin etc.
Then theres also the fact that there are some people that just have things wrong with their body that mean they gain weight like crazy no matter what. These people haven't chosen to be like that.

I had one friend who after we watched a presentation about the starving kids in 3rd world countries and how we should be thankful for our food when they have nothing, she cried afterwards because she was quite obese and she felt so bad being that way when they don't even have the option to be healthy. She then came up with the interesting point of
"They didn't choose to be born into that situation, and I didn't choose to be born into my situation."
(although some people seem to think you chose your parents before birth)
She was making a point about how people judge her on her appearance, when it's not ENTIRELY her fault, she has a naturally big body build, and she inherited it from her mother, she hasn't chosen to be so big. She was also making a point about how they make us feel guilty by showing us these pictures and telling us these facts, but there is only so much we can do at a young age, and so she was annoyed that people don't look at it both ways.

As for if these heavily overweight and obese people have happy and fullfilled lives, it would once again depend on the individual and what makes that person happy. Some of them might just like to lay around all day infront of a television, so they are happy. Also then it would depend on what stage in life they became this way, maybe they have lived a happy and fullfilled life, had kids, travelled, etc, and now they have time to relax and not worry so they just "let themselves go"?

That's just my personal opinion, it depends on each individual and their circumstances.

[Oniw17]

I don't think that being poor has much to do with being unhealthy(at least anywhere that has a welfare system). I've lived in public housing for a significant portion of my life and I have had very few health problems. I've definitely never been obese. Anyway, you may be intolerant, but it doesn't matter. Intolerance isn't always bad.

[SleepyWitch]

I don't think that being poor has much to do with being unhealthy(at least anywhere that has a welfare system). I've lived in public housing for a significant portion of my life and I have had very few health problems. I've definitely never been obese. Anyway, you may be intolerant, but it doesn't matter. Intolerance isn't always bad.

well, there are lots of studies that kinda prove it. so I guess you're the lucky exception :thumbs_up


Then also sometimes you have to take into account peoples body structure. I know many people who say there is no such thing as "big-boned" but in reality if you have really wide hips it's going to be harder to be thin etc.
Then theres also the fact that there are some people that just have things wrong with their body that mean they gain weight like crazy no matter what. These people haven't chosen to be like that.
yeah, but that's another interesting point. you're talking about thin. sometimes it seems as if there was a choice between two extremes nowadays: either you are fat/obese or you are thin but what happened to 'average'? plus, there are lots of shades in between average and fat, too.
In fact, I believe it's unrealistic and ridiculous to expect really fat people to slim down so much that they become 'thin', but what about chubby or average or a few extra kilos?

[Oniw17]

well, there are lots of studies that kinda prove it. so I guess you're the lucky exception :thumbs_up
I've read studies that 'prove' AIDS doesn't exist and others that 'prove' evolution is impossible, and even studies that 'prove' that white people are innately more intelligent than black people, or tall people than short people. Correlation doesn't = cause. Are you telling me that you believe being poor would make you fat? What does it have to do with being poor if you buy chips and cookies with your foodstamp card instead of fruits and vegetables? If you choose not to excercise, it has nothing to do with being poor. With little kids, it's different, but their parents' choices have nothing to do with being poor(at least not directly).

[SleepyWitch]

well, I don't know about the U.S. but over here fruit and veg are a lot more expensive than unhealthy stuff, so if you're on a low budget, it means you have to be really health-conscious if you want to afford them anyway. as in, buying fruit and veg means that you have less money for other things. i.e. if the father wants to spend money on booze and fags or dog food, there won't be any left to buy veg. of course you can say the father has a choice here and I kinda agree with that, but, as you said, the kids suffer from this without having a say.
plus, if you look at calory intake (vs. nutrients) buying junk is a more economical decision because you can buy lots of junk for little money, so you won't go hungry, but whether you get the nutrients you need is a different question.
plus, over here, being poor goes together with being uneducated. our school system is different than yours. we've got three types of secondary schools and it's infinitely harder for poor kids to get into the 'best' type of school, so poverty and lack of education are kinda hereditary over here. this has been shown by the OECD and other supranational organizations. but I can imagine that it's different in the U.S.A. where everyone goes to the same type of highschool.

if you don't believe that poverty is a major cause of obesity, how would you explain that obesity rates are higher among the lower social classes?

on a different note
: over here, there's charities like the Salvation Army etc who hand out food that is approaching it's sell-by-date to homeless or unemployed people. For some unemployed mothers or those in low-paying jobs, this is the only way to get veg. for their children. Unemployment benefits are so low that parents (even those who don't waste their money on booze etc) can't even buy notebooks and pencils for their school-age children so they have to rely on gifts from neighbours and charities. Charities are often the only way they can get veg for their children at all ... Now some politicians are planning to deduct some money from the unemployment benefits if parents get free veg from charities. :mad: I mean, they can't afford the veg, that's why they get them for free in the first place. Plus, these mothers are trying to do the right thing for their children despite their low budget. Would they prefer malnourished children who cost the health insurance a lot of money? Besides, I don't think it's right for the government to interfere with those charities. They should decide on their own who they give their free veg to. The veg is not funded by the government, it's donated to the charities by retailers. So if there are a few cadgers who take more than they need or who could actually pay for it, that's for the charities to find out and deal with, isn't it?
besides, our politicians are forever harping that we live in an "envious society" and are blaming the whole public for being envious, but they can't let a little kid have a half-rotten tomato that nobody else wants to eat anyway???? :mad:

[Virgil]

yeah, I'm a smoker, so I'm not the right person to be throwing stones at fat ppl.
I'm not blaming fat ppl actually. what makes me furious is the media who tell us that it's great to be fat. this kind of attitude just makes it easier for governments to wriggle out of their responsibility and tackle this issue.


Where in the media do they say "it's great to be fat?" My perception is quite the opposite. We are bombarded with images of skinny people either of bone thin models or actors and actresses.

I brought up a study on fat and health once on a thread: You may want to read this Sleepy: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29932.

I don't know about government responsibility. It seems to me governments have more important things to do than micro manage what people eat. If a person isn't free to eat what he wants, then what exactly is freedom. I think governments should fund studies to understand health and send out information, but beyond that, to actually force people to eat certain things, well that sounds like dictatorship to me.

[SleepyWitch]

I don't know about government responsibility. It seems to me governments have more important things to do than micro manage what people eat. If a person isn't free to eat what he wants, then what exactly is freedom. I think governments should fund studies to understand health and send out information, but beyond that, to actually force people to eat certain things, well that sounds like dictatorship to me.

heheh, well, I never said the government should force anyone to eat healthy.
there is a lot being done, to be sure, but they could do a lot more, as in introducing compulsotry nutririon/home economics in schools for all ages and all 3 types of secondary schools over here. the funny things is, our 'lowest' type of secondary school does have home economics, but they often learn outdated stuff there (greeaeeeeeeeeesy 'traditional' meals), whereas the posh, academic type does NOT have home economics, so not even the posh, academic kids learn about it.
besides, the gov is very interested in this issue as soon as it comes to the biiiiiig black whole there will be in the treasury due to obesity-related diseases. so seeing as they want ppl to slim down for the sake of the gov. budget, they could actually be a bit more active and not just lament :)

[Oniw17]

well, I don't know about the U.S. but over here fruit and veg are a lot more expensive than unhealthy stuff, so if you're on a low budget, it means you have to be really health-conscious if you want to afford them anyway. as in, buying fruit and veg means that you have less money for other things. i.e. if the father wants to spend money on booze and fags or dog food, there won't be any left to buy veg. of course you can say the father has a choice here and I kinda agree with that, but, as you said, the kids suffer from this without having a say.
plus, if you look at calory intake (vs. nutrients) buying junk is a more economic decision because you can buy lots of junk for little money, so you won't go hungry, but whether you get the nutrients you need is a different question.
plus, over here, being poor goes together with being uneducated. our school system is different than yours. we've got three types of secondary schools and it's infinitely harder for poor kids to get into the 'best' type of school, so poverty and lack of education are kinda hereditary over here. this has been shown by the OECD and other supranational organizations. but I can imagine that it's different in the U.S.A. where everyone goes to the same type of highschool.

if you don't believe that poverty is a major cause of obesity, how would you explain that obesity rates are higher among the lower social classes?

on a different note
: over here, there's charities like the Salvation Army etc who hand out food that is approaching it's sell-by-date to homeless or unemployed people. For some unemployed mothers or those in low-paying jobs, this is the only way to get veg. for their children. Unemployment benefits are so low that parents (even those who don't waste their money on booze etc) can't even buy notebooks and pencils for their school-age children so they have to rely on gifts from neighbours and charities. Charities are often the only way they can get veg for their children at all ... Now some politicians are planning to deduct some money from the unemployment benefits if parents get free veg from charities. :mad: I mean, they can't afford the veg, that's why they get them for free in the first place. Plus, these mothers are trying to do the right thing for their children despite their low budget. Would they prefer malnourished children who cost the health insurance a lot of money? Besides, I don't think it's right for the government to interfere with those charities. They should decide on their own who they give their free veg to. The veg is not funded by the government, it's donated to the charities by retailers. So if there are a few cadgers who take more than they need or who could actually pay for it, that's for the charities to find out and deal with, isn't it?
besides, our politicians are forever harping that we live in an "envious society" and are blaming the whole public for being envious, but they can't let a little kid have a half-rotten tomato that nobody else wants to eat anyway???? :mad:
Oops, I thought we were talking about the US. The only things I know about other places are related to literature or history. My anecdote is useless w/o a welfare system(somewhat similar to US). Also, we have charities here too, Salvation Army and Prince of Peace, and some local churches. They give my siblings gifts on christmas and give awa furniture, appliances, and food. And PA is a comon wealth state, so there's charities that pay part of your bills aswell. If you get a job through the unemployment office, they'll buy you a car. These are the reasons I don't see being poor as an excuse for being unhealthy. Of course, that's only here.

[SleepyWitch]

Where in the media do they say "it's great to be fat?" My perception is quite the opposite. We are bombarded with images of skinny people either of bone thin models or actors and actresses.

yeah, as I said, there seem to be only extremes. either we get to see nearly-annorexic models or the opposite.
I saw this programme on CNN about an obese woman who is so fat she can't even walk or move at all. all she does is sit in her armchair and watch the telly. she's got a personal carer who comes in everyday and wipes her *rse etc. and the carer said "I love her. She's such a beautiful person inside". Come on, get off it. I mean, I know I'm intolerant, but someone who sits around all day and has others do everything for them cannot be a beautiful soul. if such ppl had any consideration for their fellows, they'd think "hey, if I grow any fatter I won't be able to move and I'll have to get a nurse and boss her around" and they'd try to get help if they can't stop their bulge on their own.
then I read some articles in the Times that said that fat people should no longer let others discriminate against them because of their "life style".
yeah... this article was about a woman who had her son taken away because he was overweight (I think it's somewhere on LitNet). yep, I totally agree the government/ social service has no right whatsoever to take the kid away. but in this case, they could have sent a nutritionist to advice the mother and son for free, or they could offer free councelling in neighbourhoods with a lot of obesity. or they could publish a brochure about "how to live healthy on a low budget", because there are lots of brochures that tell you "veg is good for you", but not how to afford it on a low budget. end of rant

[Virgil]

heheh, well, I never said the government should force anyone to eat healthy.
there is a lot being done, to be sure, but they could do a lot more, as in introducing compulsotry nutririon/home economics in schools for all ages and all 3 types of secondary schools over here. the funny things is, our 'lowest' type of secondary school does have home economics, but they often learn outdated stuff there (greeaeeeeeeeeesy 'traditional' meals), whereas the posh, academic type does NOT have home economics, so not even the posh, academic kids learn about it.
besides, the gov is very interested in this issue as soon as it comes to the biiiiiig black whole there will be in the treasury due to obesity-related diseases. so seeing as they want ppl to slim down for the sake of the gov. budget, they could actually be a bit more active and not just lament :)

I have no problem with the education part. I just don't know what else they can do that is not denying people freedom. You made a point that you were a smoker. Should the government deny you cigarettes? To be honest I can see that, but I can't see in terms of eating what it can do. If a person isn't free to put in his mouth what he desires as food, then what is freedom?

And as to the relationship between poverty and weight, what exactly is the link? I don't see good, healthy food costing any different than bad food. It seems to me that it's a cultural issue. When i was growing up, and we were quite poor, everyone in my family was thin, not over weight.

[SleepyWitch]

Oops, I thought we were talking about the US. The only things I know about other places are related to literature or history. My anecdote is useless w/o a welfare system(somewhat similar to US). Also, we have charities here too, Salvation Army and Prince of Peace, and some local churches. They give my siblings gifts on christmas and give awa furniture, appliances, and food. And PA is a comon wealth state, so there's charities that pay part of your bills aswell. If you get a job through the unemployment office, they'll buy you a car. These are the reasons I don't see being poor as an excuse for being unhealthy. Of course, that's only here.

we do have a wellfare system, too, and it's rumoured to be way better than the American one, but reading your post I tend to think yours must be better! live and learn! is it different in every state?


I have no problem with the education part. I just don't know what else they can do that is not denying people freedom. You made a point that you were a smoker. Should the government deny you cigarettes? To be honest I can see that, but I can't see in terms of eating what it can do. If a person isn't free to put in his mouth what he desires as food, then what is freedom?

And as to the relationship between poverty and weight, what exactly is the link? I don't see good, healthy food costing any different than bad food. It seems to me that it's a cultural issue. When i was growing up, and we were quite poor, everyone in my family was thin, not over weight.

if the gov were honest, yes they'd deny me cigarettes. but they make an awful lot of money off cigarettes (taxes) and they couldn't finance maternity leave, healthcare etc without that money. :sick:
yeah, I kinda agree it's a cultural issue. I mean, your family came from Italy, right? I guess that explains it :thumbs_up

the point about eating what you desire as food is, if you've never eaten a particular thing (eg. some type of veg) either because you cannot afford it due to poverty or because of cultural reasons (including education), than you cannot desire it. I.e. your body may need it but you will never know that you should eat this particular thing, because you have no experience of it. so ppl's choice is limited in this way, right?

[Virgil]

if the gov were honest, yes they'd deny me cigarettes. but they make an awful lot of money off cigarettes (taxes) and they couldn't finance maternity leave, healthcare etc without that money. :sick:

Yes, and here too. That really bugs me. Politicians preach about how bad cigarettes are, they allow the cigarette companies to get sued when everyone knows already cigarettes are bad for you, and the governemnt makes five dollars profit off a pack of cigarettes while a cigarette company may make less than a dollar (actually probably less than half a dollar) profit on a pack. So how does the government have any moral standing on the issue and where is their motives in allowing people to smoke?


yeah, I kinda agree it's a cultural issue. I mean, your family came from Italy, right? I guess that explains it :thumbs_up
Yes.


the point about eating what you desire as food is, if you've never eaten a particular thing (eg. some type of veg) either because you cannot afford it due to poverty or because of cultural reasons (including education), than you cannot desire it. I.e. your body may need it but you will never know that you should eat this particular thing, because you have no experience of it. so ppl's choice is limited in this way, right?
Do vegetables cost less than McDonalds? It's people's choices. I agree let's send out information to educate people, but education hasn't stopped people from smoking either. There's one very educated german young lady I know that hasn't stopped smoking. :p

[SleepyWitch]

I've read studies that 'prove' AIDS doesn't exist and others that 'prove' evolution is impossible, and even studies that 'prove' that white people are innately more intelligent than black people, or tall people than short people. Correlation doesn't = cause. Are you telling me that you believe being poor would make you fat? What does it have to do with being poor if you buy chips and cookies with your foodstamp card instead of fruits and vegetables? If you choose not to excercise, it has nothing to do with being poor. With little kids, it's different, but their parents' choices have nothing to do with being poor(at least not directly).

you've got foodstamp cards over there? that sounds cool. over here, unemployed ppl just get cash and it's up to them what they do with it. so if the father wants to buy five dogs and a lot of dog food instead of stufffor the children, he can do that.

Virge, about the government, I think taxes (e.g. income tax) etc are much higher over here, so we can expect some service for our money? I can see how you want the government to leave ppl alone, but when you pay loads of taxes like here, it's natural that ppl should expect the government to get things done? besides, they are very willing to interfere with ppls lives whenever it comes to taking money away from ppl or forbidding them to do useful things, so they could also interfere more where ppl benefit from it?


I agree let's send out information to educate people, but education hasn't stopped people from smoking either.

yep, but in this case (when the gov and schools have done everything in their power) it's justified to blame it on individuals :D

[sprinks]

I agree that it seems to be a cultural issue more than anything, but there is still a lot more things you have to consider about it because each case will be different and so its not fair to say "it's a cultural issue" or "it's a life style choice" or anything like that.

Take for example myself, I'm only young but I have a joint syndrome and so I had knee operations fairly recently, and as a result I am not exactly able to do exercise without getting really sore. I eat healthy, for example cutting out all food with additives as much as possible, eating lots of fruit and vegetables and not eating too much, but not long after the operations I gained a lot of weight, and because of the syndrome it is still hard for me to do enough exercise to lose weight. Did I choose to be this way? No, I didn't, so getting overweight was NOT a lifestyle choice, and it wasn't a cultural issue, and it wasn't to do with how much money we have or anything like that.

Luckily now I'm a much healthier weight as I recover from the operations :D , but hopefully this is kinda a little effective in showing that obesity is not just linked to one thing, like social class, body type, what country you're in or just a life style choice etc

[Oniw17]

we do have a wellfare system, too, and it's rumoured to be way better than the American one, but reading your post I tend to think yours must be better! live and learn! is it different in every state?

I haven't been to every state, but there' a big difference between ohio and pennsylvania.

[Petrarch's Love]

Sleepy--With regard to the original post, I'm with Virgil on this one, in that I don't really see all this positive press for being fat. As far as I can see, the general cultural trend is to put down and disapprove of very overweight people. In other words, I would guess that most people think it isn't a very attractive or healthy thing to be fat and that most people who are grossly overweight get more than enough negative feedback from the people around them.

The point when I think people start talking about it being a "lifestyle choice" is when it starts being suggested that some sort official steps be taken in government or on the job to force people to change their weight problem because these "fatsos" are a drag on society. I know you aren't really suggesting this, but it really is more of an issue than you may think. Here in the US for example (where the government is not providing health care) there have been cases in which employers and insurance companies have tried to link health insurance costs to weight (fat people should pay more), or even argued that excessive weight is a legitimate reason to deny health care to an employee. The argument is that fat people spend to much on health, and the employer and/or insurance company shouldn't have to pay for someone's weight problem. Some companies would like to tie job performance rating affecting raises etc., to physical health (which could include not only being fat, but being older etc.). I am absolutely against such ideas. If you accomplish what you need to do at your job, then you should be treated like any other employee. A person's weight is a personal matter, not one to be dictated by others. In the case of a country like Germany, where health care is provided by the government, I would similarly say that a person's personal life is none of the government's business.

Not to mention, there are so many ways this kind of thinking can get creepy really fast. If you start denying health care coverage to fat people, or punishing them in some other way as a motivation to change, under the logic that they are costing society because of their fat lazy ways, then it could be only a matter of time before other things start falling under the same category. Who is to say where you draw the line at what is an acceptable healthy lifestyle and whose weaknesses we should tolerate versus whose weaknesses are unacceptable burdens on society? Certainly here in the US we have the example of Health Insurance companies that deny coverage to huge numbers of people because of an astoundingly large range of "pre-existing conditions." It just isn't good business for them to provide insurance for those who aren't young and/or very healthy, so they just get rid of those they feel don't make the healthy standard. As I mentioned above, some employers are trying to make it easier to stop providing insurance for the those who do not embrace a "healthy" lifestyle even if they are employed in a job that is currently supposed to give coverage to all employees. This kind of bottom-line business thinking makes sense for a business like private insurance, but it doesn't make sense from the perspective of people trying to create a caring and inclusive society. We may be picking on the fat person's weakness one day, but the next find that our own personal weaknesses are being targeted.

[SleepyWitch]

The point when I think people start talking about it being a "lifestyle choice" is when it starts being suggested that some sort official steps be taken in government or on the job to force people to change their weight problem because these "fatsos" are a drag on society. I know you aren't really suggesting this, but it really is more of an issue than you may think. Here in the US for example (where the government is not providing health care) there have been cases in which employers and insurance companies have tried to link health insurance costs to weight (fat people should pay more), or even argued that excessive weight is a legitimate reason to deny health care to an employee. The argument is that fat people spend to much on health, and the employer and/or insurance company shouldn't have to pay for someone's weight problem. Some companies would like to tie job performance rating affecting raises etc., to physical health (which could include not only being fat, but being older etc.). I am absolutely against such ideas. If you accomplish what you need to do at your job, then you should be treated like any other employee. A person's weight is a personal matter, not one to be dictated by others. In the case of a country like Germany, where health care is provided by the government, I would similarly say that a person's personal life is none of the government's business.

yep, health insurance officials etc over here are flirting with this idea, too, and I'm absolutely against it, too. they want to use BMI to calculate how much a person has to pay, which is total rubbish, seeing as BMI is a stone age indicator of weight.
for those who don't know the problems associated with the BMI (body mass index):
muscles weighs heavier than fat and the BMI does not take this into account at all. So anyone who weights a lot (be it due to fat, muscles or heavy bones) would have to pay more for their health insurance. Whereas someone who is light weight but has lots of fat and no muscles anyway, would have to pay less although they are more at risk
what I meant is, the government should do more to prevent large number of people from becoming obese, e.g. by education, reasonable pricing, support for those who can't afford healthy food, free school meals....

[manolia]

Sleepy--With regard to the original post, I'm with Virgil on this one, in that I don't really see all this positive press for being fat. As far as I can see, the general cultural trend is to put down and disapprove of very overweight people. In other words, I would guess that most people think it isn't a very attractive or healthy thing to be fat and that most people who are grossly overweight get more than enough negative feedback from the people around them.

That's what i thought too. Our tv is full of thin perfectly looking people ;)



Here in the US for example (where the government is not providing health care) there have been cases in which employers and insurance companies have tried to link health insurance costs to weight (fat people should pay more), or even argued that excessive weight is a legitimate reason to deny health care to an employee. The argument is that fat people spend to much on health, and the employer and/or insurance company shouldn't have to pay for someone's weight problem. Some companies would like to tie job performance rating affecting raises etc., to physical health (which could include not only being fat, but being older etc.). I am absolutely against such ideas.

Not to mention, there are so many ways this kind of thinking can get creepy really fast. If you start denying health care coverage to fat people, or punishing them in some other way as a motivation to change, under the logic that they are costing society because of their fat lazy ways, then it could be only a matter of time before other things start falling under the same category. Who is to say where you draw the line at what is an acceptable healthy lifestyle and whose weaknesses we should tolerate versus whose weaknesses are unacceptable burdens on society? Certainly here in the US we have the example of Health Insurance companies that deny coverage to huge numbers of people because of an astoundingly large range of "pre-existing conditions." It just isn't good business for them to provide insurance for those who aren't young and/or very healthy, so they just get rid of those they feel don't make the healthy standard. As I mentioned above, some employers are trying to make it easier to stop providing insurance for the those who do not embrace a "healthy" lifestyle even if they are employed in a job that is currently supposed to give coverage to all employees. This kind of bottom-line business thinking makes sense for a business like private insurance, but it doesn't make sense from the perspective of people trying to create a caring and inclusive society. We may be picking on the fat person's weakness one day, but the next find that our own personal weaknesses are being targeted.

Great post petrarch.
What do those people do??? They work but they don't have health insurance? :eek:

[SleepyWitch]

Great post petrarch.
What do those people do??? They work but they don't have health insurance? :eek:

they die a painful death or order meds from Canada on the internet.

I just hope our European politicians will be a bit more concerned and less cowardly than they normally are and NOT copy the American system in this respect like they copy lots of things from over there.

[Chava]

I don't think governments should dictate what you eat, that's just silly. This is more what I had in mind:
ontop of the 48% tax i pay on income, i also have to pay 25% VAT on everything i buy. Including food. One initiative to make healthier food an option would be to remove the VAT on vegetables and fruits. I want to eat healthy, but i find it hard, since my budget doesn't always allow for it. So i end up buying the slightly more fatty food, etc.
It bothers me because while i'm still an active person i can feel that I'm gaining weight only from my diet after having moved away from home.
That sort of positive intervention seems like an acheivable goal. What happened here was that the gov. started to decrease the cost of soda and other junk... while talking about improving peoples health.. You see?

[Virgil]

I don't think governments should dictate what you eat, that's just silly. This is more what I had in mind:
ontop of the 48% tax i pay on income, i also have to pay 25% VAT on everything i buy. Including food. One initiative to make healthier food an option would be to remove the VAT on vegetables and fruits. I want to eat healthy, but i find it hard, since my budget doesn't always allow for it. So i end up buying the slightly more fatty food, etc.
It bothers me because while i'm still an active person i can feel that I'm gaining weight only from my diet after having moved away from home.
That sort of positive intervention seems like an acheivable goal. What happened here was that the gov. started to decrease the cost of soda and other junk... while talking about improving peoples health.. You see?

Sounds like a good idea. :thumbs_up In the US there is no sales tax on food.

Perhaps I didn't say this before, but my feeling (of course I'm not an expert here on this) is that people today are heavier than previous not so much because of diet (although the extra sugar we digest contributes) but because of less physical activity. We don't walk and do the same physical activities that were done in the past. So we need to exercise.

[Shalot]

Sounds like a good idea. :thumbs_up In the US there is no sales tax on food.

Perhaps I didn't say this before, but my feeling (of course I'm not an expert here on this) is that people today are heavier than previous not so much because of diet (although the extra sugar we digest contributes) but because of less physical activity. We don't walk and do the same physical activities that were done in the past. So we need to exercise.

Which United States do you live in? When I go to the store I pay sales tax on my groceries.

[Dori]

http://voorgevorderden.com/images/difference_eu_and_us.jpg

I couldn't resist. :lol:


yeah, but that's another interesting point. you're talking about thin. sometimes it seems as if there was a choice between two extremes nowadays: either you are fat/obese or you are thin but what happened to 'average'?

Fat is average. :p


well, I don't know about the U.S. but over here fruit and veg are a lot more expensive than unhealthy stuff, so if you're on a low budget, it means you have to be really health-conscious if you want to afford them anyway. as in, buying fruit and veg means that you have less money for other things. i.e. if the father wants to spend money on booze and fags or dog food, there won't be any left to buy veg. of course you can say the father has a choice here and I kinda agree with that, but, as you said, the kids suffer from this without having a say.
plus, if you look at calory intake (vs. nutrients) buying junk is a more economical decision because you can buy lots of junk for little money, so you won't go hungry, but whether you get the nutrients you need is a different question.

The more economical decision is to grow your own vegetables. ;) Also, I think one could eat McDonalds everyday and not be obese. Exercise is the key.


if you don't believe that poverty is a major cause of obesity, how would you explain that obesity rates are higher among the lower social classes?

Lazyness is the major cause of obesity.


Here's what I don't get: why are all the vegetarians (some vegan) I know fat? It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Shalot]

http://voorgevorderden.com/images/difference_eu_and_us.jpg

I couldn't resist. :lol:



Fat is average. :p



The more economical decision is to grow your own vegetables. ;) Also, I think one could eat McDonalds everyday and not be obese. Exercise is the key.



Lazyness is the major cause of obesity.


Here's what I don't get: why are all the vegetarians (some vegan) I know fat? It just doesn't make sense to me.

:lol:

[NikolaiI]

Do vegetables cost less than McDonalds? It's people's choices. I agree let's send out information to educate people, but education hasn't stopped people from smoking either. There's one very educated german young lady I know that hasn't stopped smoking. :p

Eating right is very cheap!!

If you get several different good, healthy foods, vegetarian, grain, fruit, vegetables, milk, cheese, bread, etc... ah, bread is grain...anyway...then if you split them up in your meals, like have a third of a yogurt instead of a whole one...the food goes so much longer...such a long way. We don't realize how much we eat, but if you put a whole thing of yogurt on a plate, it takes up half the plate!! When I saw that is when I started eating only a third...and the yogurt is only 60-70 cents! So, eating healthy is very cheap.

By the way, people should be vegetarian. (hehe!)

[kilted exile]

Quoting myself from another thread:

Now I am more familiar still with UK (specifically inner-city scotland) but I think what I am about to say applies to the US as well.

Firstly the obesity part, a large problem in the poorer areas of glasgow at least is not due to overeating - it is due to people being unaware of what to eat and diet, this is coupled with the fact that due to the need for the parent to work difficult shift type work (in order to have any work at all) children are left money to go to the local fish & chip shop for dinner or feed themselves with microwable, processed crap. In more affluent areas, there is far less occurence of this. It is no surprise that the average life expectancy in Glasgow is around 6 years less than other areas of the UK (cant remember exact figures but I think it is something like 70 in Glasgow).

[Dori]

On a side note: in US public schools (or NY ones, at least), you can subscribe to free lunches (or reduced cost which comes to about $0.25) if your parents don't make enough money. I eat at least two servings of fruit and one serving of vegetables a day for free. :D


And lastly, I must admit, a 20 oz of Coke costs less than the same amount of any type of juice where I live.

[papayahed]

Eating right is very cheap!!

If you get several different good, healthy foods, vegetarian, grain, fruit, vegetables, milk, cheese, bread, etc... ah, bread is grain...anyway...then if you split them up in your meals, like have a third of a yogurt instead of a whole one...the food goes so much longer...such a long way. We don't realize how much we eat, but if you put a whole thing of yogurt on a plate, it takes up half the plate!! When I saw that is when I started eating only a third...and the yogurt is only 60-70 cents! So, eating healthy is very cheap.

By the way, people should be vegetarian. (hehe!)

Eating healthy isn't as expensive as people make it out to be. A can a beans? Costs a can of beans!!:lol: :lol:

[Virgil]

Which United States do you live in? When I go to the store I pay sales tax on my groceries.

You pay sales tax on food? There is sales taxes on non-edible items at the grocery. Food at the supermarket is sales tax free. Check your reciept. Unless your state has sales tax on food that I'm not aware of. I think most of the country (all of the country as far as I know) has food tax free. There are taxes at service places like McDonalds and restaurants because there is food service involved in prep. But raw food and canned and packaged food is tax free, unless your state is different for some reason.

[dramasnot6]

I'm a vegan, so vegetables,wholegrains, legumes and fruit is ALL I eat! I find my student budget suffers much less than anyone else at my door when it comes to eating expenses- I am eating an ideally healthy diet with $1 cans of ORGANIC beans, cheap grocery store loaves of wholegrain bread, and salad bags/bags of apples and other fruit bought in bulk. I spend about 50% less than most other students here, who go out to fast food restaurants, raid vending machines, order pizza and buy bags of chips at the grocery store.

[Shalot]

You pay sales tax on food? There is sales taxes on non-edible items at the grocery. Food at the supermarket is sales tax free. Check your reciept. Unless your state has sales tax on food that I'm not aware of. I think most of the country (all of the country as far as I know) has food tax free. There are taxes at service places like McDonalds and restaurants because there is food service involved in prep. But raw food and canned and packaged food is tax free, unless your state is different for some reason.


I do pay sales tax on food. I just went to the store and bought two boxes of cereal and paid sales tax on it. Here is a paragraph from:http://tn.gov/revenue/tntaxes/salesanduse.htm:


TAX RATES
State tax - As of January 1, 2008, the sales tax rate on food changed to 5.5%. Previously, the rate was 6%. All other tangible personal property, unless specifically exempted, remains at 7%.

[Virgil]

I do pay sales tax on food. I just went to the store and bought two boxes of cereal and paid sales tax on it. Here is a paragraph from:http://tn.gov/revenue/tntaxes/salesanduse.htm:

Wow, I guess they have sales taxes in Tennessee on food. Defineitely don't have it in New York and New Jersey, where I work. That's terrible. That web page isn't coming up for me though.

[Petrarch's Love]

yep, health insurance officials etc over here are flirting with this idea, too, and I'm absolutely against it, too. they want to use BMI to calculate how much a person has to pay, which is total rubbish, seeing as BMI is a stone age indicator of weight.
for those who don't know the problems associated with the BMI (body mass index):
muscles weighs heavier than fat and the BMI does not take this into account at all. So anyone who weights a lot (be it due to fat, muscles or heavy bones) would have to pay more for their health insurance. Whereas someone who is light weight but has lots of fat and no muscles anyway, would have to pay less although they are more at risk
what I meant is, the government should do more to prevent large number of people from becoming obese, e.g. by education, reasonable pricing, support for those who can't afford healthy food, free school meals....

Yes, it would be nice if there was government help that promoted healthy food etc. I'm not entirely convinced that education would solve the whole problem, of course, but it might help in some cases. The problem is that I don't usually hear people seriously embracing such ideas. Usually when people start off by talking about all the extra health costs fat people cause for the rest of us, it ends up with suggestions about how to force the fat people to change. Unfortunately, sometimes people just can't or won't change and then we have to figure out how to deal with them as they are.


Great post petrarch.
What do those people do??? They work but they don't have health insurance?

Fortunately in some such cases employers considering such a move have bowed to legal pressure and dropped the idea. In cases where something like this does happen I assume that some workers just go without insurance (as so many working people in this country do for a variety of reasons) or they change jobs. I might think about contacting my local ACLU and stirring up some lawyers and some press. :D


Now I am more familiar still with UK (specifically inner-city scotland) but I think what I am about to say applies to the US as well.

Firstly the obesity part, a large problem in the poorer areas of glasgow at least is not due to overeating - it is due to people being unaware of what to eat and diet, this is coupled with the fact that due to the need for the parent to work difficult shift type work (in order to have any work at all) children are left money to go to the local fish & chip shop for dinner or feed themselves with microwable, processed crap. In more affluent areas, there is far less occurence of this. It is no surprise that the average life expectancy in Glasgow is around 6 years less than other areas of the UK (cant remember exact figures but I think it is something like 70 in Glasgow).

Since the issue of obesity and low income keeps coming up, I thought I'd just say that the statistics in the United States are also that people in poor urban areas tend to be more overweight than more affluent people. This often is partly to do with a problematic difference in the price and kind of food available in poor areas. I know in the poor areas here on Chicago's South Side there are issues with even getting grocery stores at all in some places. You get a neighborhood with no regular supermarket where people are getting a lot of their food from a combination of drugstore and liquor store food offerings (not usually the most healthy) and fast food. When there are grocery stores the produce and other healthy foods tend not to be well stocked and to be overpriced. That, combined with factors like those Kilted mentions above in Glasgow, tends to contribute to more weight problems in these areas.

[Shalot]

Wow, I guess they have sales taxes in Tennessee on food. Defineitely don't have it in New York and New Jersey, where I work. That's terrible. That web page isn't coming up for me though.

That's my fault. There's a colon at the end of it that shouldn't be there. I didn't realize I was still typing between the tags:

http://tn.gov/revenue/tntaxes/salesanduse.htm

[Virgil]

Since the issue of obesity and low income keeps coming up, I thought I'd just say that the statistics in the United States are also that people in poor urban areas tend to be more overweight than more affluent people. This often is partly to do with a problematic difference in the price and kind of food available in poor areas. I know in the poor areas here on Chicago's South Side there are issues with even getting grocery stores at all in some places. You get a neighborhood with no regular supermarket where people are getting a lot of their food from a combination of drugstore and liquor store food offerings (not usually the most healthy) and fast food. When there are grocery stores the produce and other healthy foods tend not to be well stocked and to be overpriced. That, combined with factors like those Kilted mentions above in Glasgow, tends to contribute to more weight problems in these areas.

I've never been to Chicago but that is hard to believe. I don't think there is a ten block area in NYC that doesn't have at least a grocery store if not a supermarket. In fact the only sections that don't have supermarket readily available are the more upscale areas where people presumably don't want much comercial streets in the neighborhood.

[Petrarch's Love]

I've never been to Chicago but that is hard to believe. I don't think there is a ten block area in NYC that doesn't have at least a grocery store if not a supermarket. In fact the only sections that don't have supermarket readily available are the more upscale areas where people presumably don't want much comercial streets in the neighborhood.

I don't think I would have believed it either until I moved here, and probably even a lot of people on the north side of town aren't even fully aware it's a problem. Maybe this really is a uniquely Chicago issue or something. I don't understand the grocery store problem at all here. You would think food would be a commodity that poor and rich would have about an equal demand for, but there are markedly fewer stores in the less affluent areas of the city, and what stores there are have a small selection and higher prices. There are areas in the South and West of the city they refer to as "food deserts" because there are so few grocery stores. I'm lucky enough to live just a couple blocks away from a supermarket, but people come from a radius of thirty blocks or more in all directions just to shop there because there isn't much else, especially as you get into poorer areas away from the university. The local store folded recently, which meant that for about a month or so the whole area was mostly depending on a few small stores (I was buying my milk at Walgreens). Because the University owned the store building we now have a new (and great!) supermarket, but a store closing in almost any other neighborhood around here would have meant another "food desert."

[islandclimber]

A few people have mentioned it above, but I find eating healthy to be so much cheaper... I've been vegan for the last two years and vegetarian for another 4 years beyond that... Foods like rice, potatoes, beans, healthy whole grain bread, other grains, nuts, many vegetables, other legumes, fruits such as bananas and apples, are all quite inexpensive relative to junk and fast food... and though many state protein is a problem with vegan diets, there is an enormous amount of protein to be consumed within this family of foods if one so desires and all amino acids are found in this group as well, though combinations of different foods are essential to get a full range... though, going into buying all organic can get a little pricey... but regular healthy food is reasonable... it maybe takes a little thought at times, but I find it quite inexpensive and extremely healthy...

what I believe should be done, besides better education on things like health and diet, and more physical education and activity for children.... besides this, junk should be taxed excessively and the costs should go to further reducing the expense of health food... why not charge $3 or more for a can of pop or a chocolate bar, or a bag of candy, instead of the $1 they charge now, and put that extra $2 into reducing the price of fresh fruit???? It seems to make so much sense, reduce the economic viability of junk food and turn it into something that could be a rare treat like it was in the past, and make health food much cheaper...

and as mentioned by others, physical activity is a necessity... stop letting children sit in front of the tv all day.. or playing video games... get them outside, not even necessarily playing traditional sports, but doing things like hiking, mountain biking, rock climbing, cross country skiing, jogging, swimming, etc... there are so many fun and exciting things for kids to do outside, only parents never introduce them to these things anymore... instead they are given an xbox or ps3 for the bday and spend all day everyday on it...

cheers

cheers

[sprinks]

and as mentioned by others, physical activity is a necessity... stop letting children sit in front of the tv all day.. or playing video games... get them outside, not even necessarily playing traditional sports, but doing things like hiking, mountain biking, rock climbing, cross country skiing, jogging, swimming, etc... there are so many fun and exciting things for kids to do outside, only parents never introduce them to these things anymore... instead they are given an xbox or ps3 for the bday and spend all day everyday on it...


As much as I do agree with statements like this I also find them hurtful in a way as people just say "children should do more physical activity" they often don't take into account the people like me with disabilities (even though I hate to call it that) who do as much as they possibly can without serious injury. I have many times cried to my friends and family that I just wish I was normal and I WANT to be able to go out there and play sport and be happy like all the other kids. I have been banned by physios and specialists from doing some specific physical activities and it seriously limits what I can do, so it hurts a bit when people say that children don't do enough exercise, because I do all I can, and it makes me wonder, what will happen to people like me if they decide to increse the amount of compulsory physical activity like some people suggest? Will we be forced to do it or will we be subjected to even more bullying from peers because we are allowed out of it?

I'm not saying any of you are intentionally saying the wrong thing, but I personally don't think it's fair to generalise with "children don't do enough exercise", but I do agree the MAJORITY of children these days do not do enough for their health

[islandclimber]

As much as I do agree with statements like this I also find them hurtful in a way as people just say "children should do more physical activity" they often don't take into account the people like me with disabilities (even though I hate to call it that) who do as much as they possibly can without serious injury. I have many times cried to my friends and family that I just wish I was normal and I WANT to be able to go out there and play sport and be happy like all the other kids. I have been banned by physios and specialists from doing some specific physical activities and it seriously limits what I can do, so it hurts a bit when people say that children don't do enough exercise, because I do all I can, and it makes me wonder, what will happen to people like me if they decide to increse the amount of compulsory physical activity like some people suggest? Will we be forced to do it or will we be subjected to even more bullying from peers because we are allowed out of it?

I'm not saying any of you are intentionally saying the wrong thing, but I personally don't think it's fair to generalise with "children don't do enough exercise", but I do agree the MAJORITY of children these days do not do enough for their health

I'm sorry, I did not mean to be hurtful... that was not my intention, and I don't mean to generalise and say it is always the case... nor do I think the school system is where increased physical activity should take place... So, I am sorry for not thinking enough about how my post might make others feel...

and you are right, I do agree, making a blanket generalization is a little too far, though I think there is quite a problem with lack of physical activity in place of video games and tv and movies, though as you say, there are exceptions... and I don't believe it is the school system where this increased physical activity should take place, for that can and will lead to exclusion and bullying... I mean at home, parents should take there children outside, instead of watching a tv show together, go for a walk or a hike, or a jog... on the weekends, same thing, go hiking, try climbing, skiing... and again I mean to say where possible, there are exceptions, and there are kids who are active, and who do all they can do physically, I just think in the majority it is getting to be quite the problem...

once again, I am sorry for being hurtful...

[sprinks]

thanks for understanding islandclimber :)

I too should apologise as I think I came across a little more harsh than I was meant too :( and what I was saying is not targeted at anybody, it was a general statement about people generalising, and your example was the first one there.... So I'm sorry if I maybe came across a bit more annoyed than what was intended!!

At least we have agreed that it is the majority that it is the problem and it is becoming a worry :D
(the :D is not because the majority is a problem but because we understand where the other is coming from and agreeing on it)

[Virgil]

what I believe should be done, besides better education on things like health and diet, and more physical education and activity for children.... besides this, junk should be taxed excessively and the costs should go to further reducing the expense of health food... why not charge $3 or more for a can of pop or a chocolate bar, or a bag of candy, instead of the $1 they charge now, and put that extra $2 into reducing the price of fresh fruit???? It seems to make so much sense, reduce the economic viability of junk food and turn it into something that could be a rare treat like it was in the past, and make health food much cheaper...


I mostly agreed with everything else in your post climber, but this I whole heartedly and passionately disagree. Who is the government to tell me or force me to eat what it wants me to eat? If I want a soda why should I have to pay more than it's value? If I want to eat junk, don't intrude on my right to do so. If I chose not to be healthy, it's none of the government's or your business. Personally freedom is more important than a healthy society. If you want to be healthy than be my guest. I'm not intruding on your freedoms.

[Sweets America]

I mostly agreed with everything else in your post climber, but this I whole heartedly and passionately disagree. Who is the government to tell me or force me to eat what it wants me to eat? If I want a soda why should I have to pay more than it's value? If I want to eat junk, don't intrude on my right to do so. If I chose not to be healthy, it's none of the government's or your business. Personally freedom is more important than a healthy society. If you want to be healthy than be my guest. I'm not intruding on your freedoms.

Oh my God Virgil I agree so much!!!!! I really dislike the idea of anyone imposing on me what I should eat or anything else. Personally, I eat ONLY for pleasure, not to be healthy. This is the way I chose to eat, I eat a lot of junk food, chocolate or things like that, I often skip meals, I don't respect regular meal hours, I eat whatever I like whenever I like, and I don't see why anyone would force me to eat another way. This is my life and I intend to live it my way.

[Chava]

It's tricky... I live mostly on vegetables, and occasionally the fish on sale :) But i'm still surprised that a tray of grapes can cost me 4 dollars. Food is really expensive here in Denmark! it takes about a fourth of my budget, and yes i try very hard to economise. Actually... I guess that's the main problem, food here is just ridiculously expensive. And frankly, i get bored of eating variations of the same thing everyday, if that is all i can afford. A brick of cheese can come in at over 7 dollars!

[Virgil]

Oh my God Virgil I agree so much!!!!! I really dislike the idea of anyone imposing on me what I should eat or anything else. Personally, I eat ONLY for pleasure, not to be healthy. This is the way I chose to eat, I eat a lot of junk food, chocolate or things like that, I often skip meals, I don't respect regular meal hours, I eat whatever I like whenever I like, and I don't see why anyone would force me to eat another way. This is my life and I intend to live it my way.

:lol: Thanks Sweets. What I'm actually laughing at is that in the US there are dconstant articles on how the French eat properly. :lol:

[dramasnot6]

I don't think we should interfere with the RIGHT to eat junk but I do think there is waaaay too much pressure from the media to choose to eat an unhealthy diet...so much so that it doesn't seem like an individual choice as it does an expectation from society.

[sprinks]

I don't think we should interfere with the RIGHT to eat junk but I do think there is waaaay too much pressure from the media to choose to eat an unhealthy diet...so much so that it doesn't seem like an individual choice as it does an expectation from society.

That is interesting because at least here there is almost kind of an equal pressure to eat healthy as much as there is to eat unhealthy. The news, current affairs programs and various other shows are constantly telling people how to eat better and that they SHOULD be eating better, whereas the advertising business seems to be more focused on eating junk food. Even still, there are numerous adverts about living a healthy lifestyle and eating better. I know people do HEAPS of research about how many junk food adverts a child will see in a certain amount of years etc and how that affects their lifestyle, but I wonder, do they do the same for how many adverts these children see for HEALTHY eating? If so please enlighten me as I'm curious to know what the ratio is, for all we know these children are seeing twice the amount of adverts for healthy food and regular exercise than adverts for junk food, and they are just choosing to ignore them! :confused:

[Sweets America]

:lol: Thanks Sweets. What I'm actually laughing at is that in the US there are dconstant articles on how the French eat properly. :lol:

:lol: Well, I'm not representative of the French. I'm not even sure something as 'The French' really exists. We're all a bunch of individuals with our personal tastes and ways of life. ;)
Yes I think there is this image of French food being great. I don't know. My mother cooks a lot, she's always cooking and she cooks well. I admit I don't cook cause I'm lazy, too, and I hate wasting time eating while I could be reading for instance. Plus when I'm hungry it's right now, not after all the food has been cooked. :p Cannot wait. But in the meantime I'm really fed up with ready-made food, I cannot stand it anymore so I end up not eating anything. Ah that's bad.

[Abraxas]

Same thing here: I'm too lazy to take time to cook, and even to eat, sometimes... It's like sleeping - sort of a waste of time when you think about it, even though it's pleasant....


It's tricky... I live mostly on vegetables, and occasionally the fish on sale :) But i'm still surprised that a tray of grapes can cost me 4 dollars. Food is really expensive here in Denmark! it takes about a fourth of my budget, and yes i try very hard to economise. Actually... I guess that's the main problem, food here is just ridiculously expensive. And frankly, i get bored of eating variations of the same thing everyday, if that is all i can afford. A brick of cheese can come in at over 7 dollars!

Wow!! I would never have imagined that, with all one hears about Scandinavian countries being perfect and all.. (clichés, I know, blush).

To add my two cents to the discussion: I lived one year in the States, and was a little shocked to see that fruits and vegetables were really far more expensive than junk food. And that the supermarkets carried an enormous amount of junk food in general!! Not that I minded much, being a bit of a junk addict, but I would have put on a lot of weight had I not been rather too poor to buy a lot to eat. I noticed my eating habits were different from those of my American friends as well: they told me they ate all the time, from morning to midnight, with snacks every few hours.... that surprised me a tad.

[Granny5]

You know, a lot of insurance companies will pay for treatment of problems caused by obesity, but not to help overweight people lose weight. It's like smoking, the insurance companies will pay for treatment of lung cancer and COPD, but not to help smokers stop. One would think that the insurance companies would want to save money on long term conditions by treating the cause of the conditions.

[Koa]

I'm not blaming fat ppl actually. what makes me furious is the media who tell us that it's great to be fat. this kind of attitude just makes it easier for governments to wriggle out of their responsibility and tackle this issue.


I haven't read the whole thread yet because I have no time, but let me stop a sec on this.
First of all, I have never heard of obesity not being condemned... so I suppose my sources of information are different and it might even be cultural, as in I think that Italy still has a relatively healthy lifestyle where being thin is still seen as the best thing to be.
Secondly, if the media stops treating fatness as a totally negative issues, can't it be to decrease discrimination towards fat people? True, real, extreme obesity is usually an issue not dependant on food but on other health reasons, and often the obese person has no choice. Fat people are discriminated because of how they look like, and I'm probably the first one to do so, being chubby myself and believing that no one fatter than me has the right to be happier than me in their social relationships. So I think that it's high time the media gave an idea of success/health not only being related to skinny pop stars or the like. As I said, I have never seen any tolerance to fast-food eaters who weigh 150kg because they eat fries on a daily basis, while I believe that the chubby teenager who likes chocolate and is just built like that has the right to feel as nice and cute as her schoolmates with supermodel-like bodies...

[Pensive]

I haven't read the whole thread yet because I have no time, but let me stop a sec on this.
First of all, I have never heard of obesity not being condemned... so I suppose my sources of information are different and it might even be cultural, as in I think that Italy still has a relatively healthy lifestyle where being thin is still seen as the best thing to be.
Secondly, if the media stops treating fatness as a totally negative issues, can't it be to decrease discrimination towards fat people? True, real, extreme obesity is usually an issue not dependant on food but on other health reasons, and often the obese person has no choice. Fat people are discriminated because of how they look like, and I'm probably the first one to do so, being chubby myself and believing that no one fatter than me has the right to be happier than me in their social relationships. So I think that it's high time the media gave an idea of success/health not only being related to skinny pop stars or the like. As I said, I have never seen any tolerance to fast-food eaters who weigh 150kg because they eat fries on a daily basis, while I believe that the chubby teenager who likes chocolate and is just built like that has the right to feel as nice and cute as her schoolmates with supermodel-like bodies...

Even though I am not fat (far from chubby actually) but I would have to agree with you that the culture discriminates against fat people more than needed. I have even seen people making fun of a normal person when it comes to the body structure....urging her to become even thinner. I mean what the hell? Obesity does cause problems like coronary heart diseases and such, but doesn't being very thin too?

Just a few days back, there was this in our newspapers that a model got fainted on the stage as she had been starving herself from quite a long time before the show. There have been such news about some television actresses too.

I have friends who are extremely conscious about their figure, even though they are okay.....they want to be thinner and thinner like super-models....which at times really annoys me though of course it's their personal choice. I am the only one who wants to actually gain some weight. :p

[Dori]

A few people have mentioned it above, but I find eating healthy to be so much cheaper...

I agree. You can't grow junk food in your back yard, can you? :p MY family has a reasonably sized garden. Also, my aunt raises pigs so we get a pig each year (that's a lot of bacon and pork chops). I eat all the fruits I need at school because that's the one thing we lack at home.


what I believe should be done, besides better education on things like health and diet, and more physical education and activity for children.... besides this, junk should be taxed excessively and the costs should go to further reducing the expense of health food... why not charge $3 or more for a can of pop or a chocolate bar, or a bag of candy, instead of the $1 they charge now, and put that extra $2 into reducing the price of fresh fruit???? It seems to make so much sense, reduce the economic viability of junk food and turn it into something that could be a rare treat like it was in the past, and make health food much cheaper...

Firstly, taking one health class was one too many. Now I do agree with more P.E. because gym is one of my favorite classes. I have one 45 minute gym class every other day where I go to school. Everyday would be better. :D

And no, junk food should not be "taxed excessively". People are entitled to eat what they want (given that they have the means of doing so). If someone manages to eat him/herself to obesity, good luck.


I mostly agreed with everything else in your post climber, but this I whole heartedly and passionately disagree. Who is the government to tell me or force me to eat what it wants me to eat? If I want a soda why should I have to pay more than it's value? If I want to eat junk, don't intrude on my right to do so. If I chose not to be healthy, it's none of the government's or your business. Personally freedom is more important than a healthy society. If you want to be healthy than be my guest. I'm not intruding on your freedoms.

Amen. :D


Oh my God Virgil I agree so much!!!!! I really dislike the idea of anyone imposing on me what I should eat or anything else. Personally, I eat ONLY for pleasure, not to be healthy. This is the way I chose to eat, I eat a lot of junk food, chocolate or things like that, I often skip meals, I don't respect regular meal hours, I eat whatever I like whenever I like, and I don't see why anyone would force me to eat another way. This is my life and I intend to live it my way.

That's the way to do it. :thumbs_up


I don't think we should interfere with the RIGHT to eat junk but I do think there is waaaay too much pressure from the media to choose to eat an unhealthy diet...so much so that it doesn't seem like an individual choice as it does an expectation from society.

I believe the media does pressure people to eat an unhealthful diet, but that's not to say the media pressures people to eat junk food. It seems to me that the media stresses "fad diets" over anything else. Omitting carbs from a diet is the dumbest idea I've ever heard.


That is interesting because at least here there is almost kind of an equal pressure to eat healthy as much as there is to eat unhealthy. The news, current affairs programs and various other shows are constantly telling people how to eat better and that they SHOULD be eating better, whereas the advertising business seems to be more focused on eating junk food. Even still, there are numerous adverts about living a healthy lifestyle and eating better. I know people do HEAPS of research about how many junk food adverts a child will see in a certain amount of years etc and how that affects their lifestyle, but I wonder, do they do the same for how many adverts these children see for HEALTHY eating? If so please enlighten me as I'm curious to know what the ratio is, for all we know these children are seeing twice the amount of adverts for healthy food and regular exercise than adverts for junk food, and they are just choosing to ignore them! :confused:

Well, it's more convenient to show only one half of the story. :lol:


:lol: Well, I'm not representative of the French. I'm not even sure something as 'The French' really exists. We're all a bunch of individuals with our personal tastes and ways of life. ;)
Yes I think there is this image of French food being great. I don't know. My mother cooks a lot, she's always cooking and she cooks well. I admit I don't cook cause I'm lazy, too, and I hate wasting time eating while I could be reading for instance. Plus when I'm hungry it's right now, not after all the food has been cooked. :p Cannot wait. But in the meantime I'm really fed up with ready-made food, I cannot stand it anymore so I end up not eating anything. Ah that's bad.

There's no such thing as "The French"?! :eek: Who will be our subject of ridicule then? :p Oh yes, the Germans. :lol: (I don't mean to offend. ;))

I find myself cooking more than my mom does. I often cook for my whole family. :)


Even though I am not fat (far from chubby actually) but I would have to agree with you that the culture discriminates against fat people more than needed. I have even seen people making fun of a normal person when it comes to the body structure....urging her to become even thinner. I mean what the hell? Obesity does cause problems like coronary heart diseases and such, but doesn't being very thin too?

First thing, I believe people should grow a back bone. I poke fun at people all the time about what they look like. However, I don't complain when people poke fun at my appearance.

One thing I never do is poke fun about a woman's appearance to her face. And if I do so, well, you can imagine what happens (it usually ends with me fleeing the scene :D).

[Koa]

And chocolate is NOT junk food. It's a necessary element to happiness. Now all those silly bars with weird things inside might be a bit junk, but a plain bar of chocolate is just nice. I'm far more concerned about chips/crisps and greasy stuff, but once in a while that's just what you need. Let's face it, vegetables are mostly damn boring, I was all happy about my carrots yesterday and halfway through them I looked at them and thought "ok I'll finish eating you just because you're healthy and I hate to waste food anyway", but damn they were boring :p

[Pensive]

First thing, I believe people should grow a back bone. I poke fun at people all the time about what they look like. However, I don't complain when people poke fun at my appearance.

I just think a bit differently about this. Making fun of people on the basis of their appearance/gender/race/etc doesn't seem fine to me. Especially continuously, and that's how I have seen some fat people (even people having normal not-very-thin figures) being treated.


One thing I never do is poke fun about a woman's appearance to her face. And if I do so, well, you can imagine what happens (it usually ends with me fleeing the scene :D).

Good. I hope you get to meet some feminine-man too who makes you flee so you never make fun of men as well. :p

[Granny5]

Wow, I guess they have sales taxes in Tennessee on food. Defineitely don't have it in New York and New Jersey, where I work. That's terrible. That web page isn't coming up for me though.

But in Tennessee there is no State Income Tax. In Arkansas you pay taxes on everything except medicines and there is a State Income Tax. Our sales tax rate is 6% in Arkansas. In Branson, Missouri it's 9% and there is a State Income Tax also. It's terrible.

[Dori]

And chocolate is NOT junk food. It's a necessary element to happiness. Now all those silly bars with weird things inside might be a bit junk, but a plain bar of chocolate is just nice. I'm far more concerned about chips/crisps and greasy stuff, but once in a while that's just what you need. Let's face it, vegetables are mostly damn boring, I was all happy about my carrots yesterday and halfway through them I looked at them and thought "ok I'll finish eating you just because you're healthy and I hate to waste food anyway", but damn they were boring :p

Chocolate is overrated. :p And although carrots might be boring, brussel sprouts are fun! :D

[Virgil]

But in Tennessee there is no State Income Tax. In Arkansas you pay taxes on everything except medicines and there is a State Income Tax. Our sales tax rate is 6% in Arkansas. In Branson, Missouri it's 9% and there is a State Income Tax also. It's terrible.

There's a great chart here http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/TheBestAndWorstStatesForTaxes.aspx?page=2 on overall assessment of taxes by states in the US. As you can see New York is the second highest. Urrgh. I think the chart is also missing real estate taxes. And even if you rent instead of owning a home, real estate taxes get factored into the rent. Tennesse is on of the lowest taxed states in the country.

[SleepyWitch]

but aren't wages/ salaries in Tennessee a lot lower than in New York on the other hand?
as long as prices are lower too, there shouldn't be a problem, but when products come in from other states, I guess the prices will be the same everywhere?

[Koa]

Today I read about a girl who became famous on a rubbish TV show, who went through lyposuction even if she didn't really need it (those people on rubbish reality shows and the like are never fat) and it went wrong, not sure how since it was also a rubbish magazine, and now she has huge health problems. So much for fat being tolerated, she probably was half a kg bigger than perfection I assume.

[Shalot]

but aren't wages/ salaries in Tennessee a lot lower than in New York on the other hand?
as long as prices are lower too, there shouldn't be a problem, but when products come in from other states, I guess the prices will be the same everywhere?

I know the wages and salaries in Tennessee are a lot lower than say, New York. Also, the cost of living in New York is a lot higher. Someone from California was in the store here going on about how cheap the Pantene was and I was thinking that Pantene is not really that cheap for me. I guess she too had not factored in the cost of living and the lower wage rate. Granny5 is right in that we don't have a state income tax here though. I actually don't know how it all evens out. In terms of food though, we do pay sales tax on it.

But back to the thread topic: I used to be the right weight as far as BMI calculations went. I was also very conscious of everything I ate. I was constantly reading nutrition lables and I simply would not eat anything from a restaurant unless they gave me the fat and calorie content. I was very much a "fattist" at that time in my life. Then I got a life, and decided to start eating and enjoying food and consequently I gained weight. I went from counting every portion to eating when I felt like it.

It's very difficult to live life in this fast food culture and not become a fat arse. Everywhere I look, I see fat people. I see rich, middle class and poor fat people. I think the transportation system and the availability of fast, easy, cheap food make it so hard to be a normal weight in America. It's not that it's just fast easy and cheap food - it's just that there are so many BAD-FOR-YOU foods that are available instantly. It's easier to go out to eat than plan and cook and shop... We don't really have the option of riding a bike or walking in most places due to the layout of practically the whole country.

I think the diet industry makes a huge profit on these crazy things they sell people to make them thin:

Ali (Fat blocker - it will make you crap your pants if you consume too much fat -- great. Just what a fat person needs, another blow to the self-esteem. Not only are you fat, you're the fat-arse who crapped her pants)
Hydroxycut - doesn't do anything
Trimspa - doesn't do anything
GNC Fat Burner Selections: tried several, don't like any of them
Lipodissolve - non-invasive fat melter (not sure how this works but it's less expensive than liposuction, but you still have to pay and pay big and go to a weight loss clinic. I wonder, how do they make the payroll there?)
LipoVite Shots - a shot in the arm or hip, $20 per week, helps you lose inches.
Phentermine - by prescription or through a weight loss clinic. Approximately 69.95 per month in Tennessee. Major Appetite Suppressent, works in your brain. Side effects can include sleeplessness, some gastrointestinal effects (not as bad as Ali). There are some serious side effects but Phentermine has been prescribed frequently without serious side effects.

There are all kinds of diets and diet books and the diet approved foods for each:
South Beach Diet
Body For Life
Atkins Diet


There are health clubs and on top of the gym membership you pay, they try to sell you personal training packages (see my blog :D ) diet supplements and work out smoothies. In this kind of environment, it's hard not to be a "fattist"

Most of the people I see in the US are moderately overweight at the most. Then there is a lesser percentage who have gone beyond moderately overweight to obese. Most people I see though could feasibly lose weight. Occasionally I will see someone who is so overweight, that it's beyond all hope in my opinion.

I had a morbidly obese co-worker who had terrible body odor as a result of being so fat. I think it was probably too hard for her to bathe because she was so fat. And she fell at work one day and couldn't hoist herself back up. She looked terrible in her clothes. I don't know who told her she could go out in pants because her stomach hung down on her knees when she stood up and you could see it especially when she wore pants. She was unpleasant to be around. She had diabetes and always had to go to the doctor and she would come up and talk about how the doctor told her she needed to lose weight as if it was some major revelation. I didn't know what to say in response to that. She said, "I need to lose weight." I thought in my head. "Do you think???" while trying not to give my thoughts away as I listened to her.

I know that I was disgusted by her, and I don't think it was specifically because she was so fat - that was part of it, but not the whole thing. It was more like, she didn't love herself enough to take care of herself.

But I still think she should be able to receive treatment and not be penalized by insurance companies for example, for being so fat.

As long as these industries get to make a killing off of these products and services they market, then there shouldn't be any changes to who is and who isn't covered under insurance plans. Same goes for cigarettes. But, I see they're making lots of changes to the laws - can't smoke inside anywhere in Tennessee anymore. Only bars for people age 21 and up are legal smoking places.

That's all I have to say about it. I am an almost fat struggling fattist.

[Bakiryu]

I think I am a bit of a fattist since I live in the US. Americans are surrounded by food, while back home we have so few stores and they're all so empty, only the tourists and the people who get money from the US eat well.

So yeah, I don't think you are a fattist. Or anyone for that matter, the only reason for anyone to be obese is because they have a health problem or cannot work out.

America should help out starving countries, that way we would have so many less fat people, and that way you could say it is a lifestyle choice.

[SleepyWitch]

Shalot, diet supplements are EEEEEEEVIL! unless you have a deficiency due to physiological reasons (rather than an unbalanced diet), there is no need for them at all.
a) doctors etc often tell us that our soils are depleted, so our veg don't have enough vitamins anymore. WRONG! long term studies show that they have just the same amount of vitamins as they had decades ago
b) some vitamins etc only work in combinations with others, but supplements often contain only a single vitamin
c) ppl easily overdose on supplements and some supplements can counteract meds, so never take supplements when you're on medication

so as long as you eat a balanced diet, with veg/fruit, carbs (!!!! yes, the human body needs carbs! of course french fries are baaaad carbs, but pasta or wholemeal bread are good ones!), and meat in moderation, you won't need any supplements.

[SleepyWitch]

America should help out starving countries, that way we would have so many less fat people, and that way you could say it is a lifestyle choice.
aw, that's a noble sentiment, Baki. but unfortunately, shipping food to developing countries makes the situation there worse :( ppl there have so-called "coping strategies" which they use when there is an acute famine. e.g. in Africa they'll eat the fruits of some treas (Baobab, I think), which they don't normally use when there's enough other stuff to eat. this way they can weather the famine. but when you ship bags of rice etc there, ppl rely on these deliveries and forget their coping strategies.
also, if you ship food there during non-famine times, it ruins their domestic economy. merchants will grab the food and sell it at cut-throat prices so that local farmers won't be able to sell their produce because their price is too high. or corrupt government officials will hoard the food and sell it for a lot of money in times of famine.... This happened during the Great Bengal Famine of 1943 in India: thousands/millions (?) of people died, but merchants were hoarding lots of food in their warehouses all through the famine, waiting for higher prices. Similar things still happen in Africa today.
I'm not saying the 'developed' world shouldn't help them, but the best way to do this is to make the world a fairer place, both for global trade and for agriculture within developing countries.

[SleepyWitch]

hey Virge, you mentioned exercise somewhere up there....
I've been thinking.... maybe one of the reasons why poor people are especially prone to obesity is that a) they obviously can't afford to go to the gym and b) (this is the less obvious point) maybe they don't do free sports like walking because these have low prestige nowadays? what I mean is, it's cool to do sports that either require a lot of equipment or where you have to pay in some way, but free things like just walking around your neighbourhood (and I don't mean trekking+camping in the country side) are considered uncool precisely because they are very unsophisticated and don't cost a cent? E.g. my neighbours are unemployed and sit around in the street all day. They are not obese, to be fair, but they drink and do drugs. They are unemployed, so theoretically, they could walk and walk and walk all day if they wanted to. But maybe they never even thought about it because they'd considered it hobo-like (believe me unemployed ppl are the first to look down on others!!!) or the idea never entered their head because the only hobbies and sports they know cost money????

[Virgil]

I don't know Sleepy. I was poor and I jogged and did calisthetics and played ball with my friends. Poor kids in black neighborhoods around here are always in the park playing basketball. I'm sorry i just don't see it. Three best exercises: jogging, push ups, and sit ups. It gets almost everything in and they are all free, except for sneakers.

[SleepyWitch]

I guess you're right about the kids,
but I don't see any adults playing baseball in the street (or football/soccer) in Germany

[Virgil]

I guess you're right about the kids,
but I don't see any adults playing baseball in the street (or football/soccer) in Germany

Not too much here either. We older people mostly go to the gym. You know i did work together on a joint project with an English company a few years ago and there was one engineer older than me there who still played football in leagues, and he played hard. One day he had scrapes and bruises from a fall. God bless him he was in good shape.

[SleepyWitch]

Not too much here either. We older people mostly go to the gym. You know i did work together on a joint project with an English company a few years ago and there was one engineer older than me there who still played football in leagues, and he played hard. One day he had scrapes and bruises from a fall. God bless him he was in good shape.

yeah, we've got lots of football clubs and leagues here, too. but they don't apply to my unemployed neighbours, seeing as they cost membership fees.
anyways, I'll keep my eyes open for more detailed articles about the causes of obesity

[Chava]

Well, we can argue back and forth about social status vs. excersice. One thing i know for sure though; when i was 'littler' my days were spent outdoors, playing, racing climbing, etc. I can tell that my brother and his friends don't do the same. They chose to play computer/playstation, or watch TV.
They all got enthusiastic about starting badminton, but dropped out when they worke dout they'd have to walk to the sports hall---- Yeah, they're lazy bums!
Today playing just isn't associated much with fictional games outdoors, but more to do with relaxed indoor activities. I guess it's a change in lifestyle. I wouldn't consider this an example to display the majority of youths, or even acount for obesity, but i notice that a lot of young kids up from my brothers school, and the area here are like this too.
Never mind football which involves running, when you can play FIFA!
Never mind real RP with wooden swords and long runs, when you can play World of Warcraft or Zelda.
Never mind a real life when you can play the Sims...

Right, i am feeling overly loquacious and nonsensical today... I appologise for rambling.

[Virgil]

Good point Chava. I think there are more sedatary (sp?) things that kids do today that takes time away from physical activities.

[Pensive]

Never mind a real life when you can play the Sims...

:lol:

Yeah, I fully agree!

[Dori]

With a single exception, I don't know anyone who plays video games on a daily basis who is fat. In fact, the better gamers around here either work on a small farm or play sports. But, since my lifestyle (and that of those around me) is probably drastically different than someone who lives in an urban setting, my experience certainly does not apply to the majority of the people (I suspect).

[Chava]

With a single exception, I don't know anyone who plays video games on a daily basis who is fat.

Good point, indeed my brother too is in superb shape. But then he's practiaclly a fruitist, and i managed to get him into Live RP so now he also spends most of his day swordfighting.
That and he has a fast metabolism...

[AimusSage]

That and he has a fast metabolism...
Yes, it does help to have one of those. :D

Oh, and the Wii, the Wii is good to have too. :nod:

[Virgil]

That and he has a fast metabolism...

When i was eighteen I had a fast metabolism too. It's when you hit your thirties that weight starts accumulating. ;)

[Chava]

It's genetic i think. My mother and brother are super slim, and we eat and excersise the same. If anything i work out more than them, yet, i gain weight with much greater ease, i'm like my dad... At an age of 40 my mom weighed less than 50 kilo's. That's very underweight. She was force fed cream as a kid, because she couldn't gain weight in spite of a ridiculous apetite...

[AimusSage]

It's genetic i think. My mother and brother are super slim, and we eat and excersise the same. If anything i work out more than them, yet, i gain weight with much greater ease, i'm like my dad... At an age of 40 my mom weighed less than 50 kilo's. That's very underweight. She was force fed cream as a kid, because she couldn't gain weight in spite of a ridiculous apetite...
Not unlike my dad, he's halfway in his fiftees, eats about double of what I eat (I eat a lot mind you) and he is still underweight. Metabolism is crazy sometimes. :D

[Chava]

Well fair enough, they got thin slim, i get muscle slim. 'Toned' i think it's been called ;)

[blp]

I don't think you're fattist at all, Sleepy. There are loads of people fattier than you.

Sorry, if someone else already made this lame joke. I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread and find out.

[SleepyWitch]

I don't think you're fattist at all, Sleepy. There are loads of people fattier than you.

Sorry, if someone else already made this lame joke. I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread and find out.

:lol:
hahah, don't bothered. I'm shocked enough to meet you outside the poetry subforum, anyway. what's wrong? you must be having a very dull moment :p

[blp]

:lol:
hahah, don't bothered. I'm shocked enough to meet you outside the poetry subforum, anyway. what's wrong? you must be having a very dull moment :p

I may be a little delirious with tiredness. I got up early and I've had a full day of strenuous intellectual endeavour (really). I guess I'm unwinding. By talking nonsense.