Should Christians be more like Atheists?

[Trillian]

I was thinking about this tonight: Say an Atheist lives a good life, respects the beliefs of others, is faithful and kind to his or her spouse, does not lie, cheat, steal, and generally lives a life of charity and kindness. Is that not incredibly impressive, considering the Atheist does not believe in any God or Adversary, any concept of retribution or reward, and believes that they will just "wink out" when they die? I am a Christian, and I must admit, there have been times that I have "done the right thing" just because of the concept of sin, and my own religious guilt.

[SleepyWitch]

I think they should :) but then, I'm an atheist myself,...

[Lote-Tree]

I think they should :) but then, I'm an atheist myself,...

That is just terrible!

There are treatmenst available ;-)

[SleepyWitch]

That is just terrible!

There are treatmenst available ;-)

yeah? like what? Lote's Bible Boot Camp, free hallucinogens included? :D

[Lote-Tree]

yeah? like what? Lote's Bible Boot Camp, free hallucinogens included? :D

No. Anti-biotics...it clears after 7 days ;-) Well six days and then you rest another day :D

[Redzeppelin]

I was thinking about this tonight: Say an Atheist lives a good life, respects the beliefs of others, is faithful and kind to his or her spouse, does not lie, cheat, steal, and generally lives a life of charity and kindness. Is that not incredibly impressive, considering the Atheist does not believe in any God or Adversary, any concept of retribution or reward, and believes that they will just "wink out" when they die? I am a Christian, and I must admit, there have been times that I have "done the right thing" just because of the concept of sin, and my own religious guilt.

The Christian would argue that aetheists with a moral code like you have described do believe in God - they just intellectually deny it - this because the Christian believes that all morality, all good, comes from God. Just because a person intellectually rejects God's existence doesn't mean that God is still not present in that person's life. Since God created us, He has ownership of us; rejecting Him doesn't mean that He walks off and ignores us.

I'm not sure I agree with the suggestion that the aetheist has a purer, more altruistic morality because s/he lacks the "final accounting" that the Christian does. Christians who don't do bad things because of an awareness of sin are not simply doing so to avoid punishment - that is a more elementary response; the mature Christian does good and avoids bad because s/he understands that sinning negatively affects one's walk with God and our relationships with others. The idea is that at some point, we grow from "I don't sin because I don't want to go to hell" to "I don't sin because it grieves God and clouds my relationship with Him."

Think of it this way: I do not sleep with other women so that my wife won't get angry with me and divorce me (although that's certainly there); I avoid this type of behavior because I don't want my relationship with her to be sundered or negatively affected. Having said that, if we hit a rough patch and I get very angry and discouraged, do you think it would be so bad that I still avoided the affair based upon my fear of divorce? In other words, isn't there a place for both motivations? And, who is to say that behind the atheist's morality isn't a fear of some sort of negative repercussion, legal or not?

Just a thought.

[Ryduce]

I was thinking about this tonight: Say an Atheist lives a good life, respects the beliefs of others, is faithful and kind to his or her spouse, does not lie, cheat, steal, and generally lives a life of charity and kindness.

This is the most important point.The problem with this sentiment is that there seems to be a growing number of atheist who aren't merely the questioning doubters,but are more the Christopher Hitchens,H.L Mencken types.These people see religion as inherently evil and publicly seek to undermine it while treating the rest of the faithful as unintelligent,unevolved,bloodthirsty animals.

Respecting the beliefs of others goes both ways.I have no problems with atheist who simply don't believe,but I do have a problem with atheist who publicly defame religion and speak as if they are on a pedestal of the all knowing.I am Christian,and I attended a seminar yesterday about Islam taught by a Muslim doctor,and it only reaffirmed in me the hope that we all can learn and respect others beliefs in a civil manner.I do believe that atheist as well as the most ardent believer can associate intellectually and morally.

The question:Should Christians behave more like atheist?

The answer is that we should all,regardless of spiritual affiliation,act morally,respectfully,and seek truth in the world.

[Trillian]

Thanks everyone, for your responses. I guess this is just something I have been struggling with. I know an Atheist that is exactly what I have described. This person was raised in a household absent of any religious direction, and simply believes that human life is a biological accident. However, he respects my beliefs, even going so far as to call my faith "a beautiful sentiment". He is a GOOD PERSON! The idea that God would be unimpressed with his genuine goodness disturbs me greatly. The concept that he will burn in hell with child molesters, murderers, and Hitler just turns my stomach. I guess I am just "looking for a loophole".

[Trillian]

The Christian would argue that aetheists with a moral code like you have described do believe in God - they just intellectually deny it - this because the Christian believes that all morality, all good, comes from God. Just because a person intellectually rejects God's existence doesn't mean that God is still not present in that person's life. Since God created us, He has ownership of us; rejecting Him doesn't mean that He walks off and ignores us.

So, then, subconsciously is that person a Christian? Will God take them in, considering the good that they do to be in His name? And further, consider the "Christian" that has accepted Christ, and really meant it at the time, but after church he beats his wife, cheats on his taxes, and "provokes his children to wrath". Will God cast him away, due to his actions, regardless of his original submission to God?:brickwall

I think my brain is going to pop.

[NikolaiI]

Shouldn't feel guilty, because you are forgiven.

Sometimes I realize how Christian forgiveness and humility are the same as Buddhist enlightenment or moksha.

I understand the Christian position to be that God loves us and is always offering us redemption, salvation, or deliverance. So any person, even an atheist, can receive deliverance if they only surrender to him.

I don't think Christian prayer is the quickest way to God, but I still urge anyone to search these questions out in prayer. Prayer is absolutely necessary...

[Oniw17]

This is the most important point.The problem with this sentiment is that there seems to be a growing number of atheist who aren't merely the questioning doubters,but are more the Christopher Hitchens,H.L Mencken types.These people see religion as inherently evil and publicly seek to undermine it while treating the rest of the faithful as unintelligent,unevolved,bloodthirsty animals.

Respecting the beliefs of others goes both ways.I have no problems with atheist who simply don't believe,but I do have a problem with atheist who publicly defame religion and speak as if they are on a pedestal of the all knowing.I am Christian,and I attended a seminar yesterday about Islam taught by a Muslim doctor,and it only reaffirmed in me the hope that we all can learn and respect others beliefs in a civil manner.I do believe that atheist as well as the most ardent believer can associate intellectually and morally.

Well said.

[Trillian]

This is the most important point.The problem with this sentiment is that there seems to be a growing number of atheist who aren't merely the questioning doubters,but are more the Christopher Hitchens,H.L Mencken types.These people see religion as inherently evil and publicly seek to undermine it while treating the rest of the faithful as unintelligent,unevolved,bloodthirsty animals.

You have a very valid point here. But I think that the so-called Atheist that spends his time attacking the faith of others perhaps can't really be called an Atheist. I am familiar with the Hitchens type, and he goes beyond not believing in any god. He is an antitheist, which is actually different from atheisim. While an atheist doesn't believe in the existance of gods or an afterlife, an antitheist believes that a religion based on a "dictator god" makes humanity no better than slaves. Since slavery is wrong, that makes God wrong, and religion immoral. Antitheists are a different breed, with an agenda that, first of all, points to an unpleasant experience with religion, and second of all, points to an unbelievable amount of egotism. I think that people like Hitchens do believe in a god, deep down, and (not meaning to be crude)the idea of that kind of authority over them just makes their butt twitch. The antitheist has probably always had issues with authority, and take it out on God because he is the ultimate authority.

[Cellomaster2238]

.....

[hellsapoppin]

yeah? like what? Lote's Bible Boot Camp, free hallucinogens included? :D



LOL!!!

[Il Penseroso]

You have a very valid point here. But I think that the so-called Atheist that spends his time attacking the faith of others perhaps can't really be called an Atheist. I am familiar with the Hitchens type, and he goes beyond not believing in any god. He is an antitheist, which is actually different from atheisim. While an atheist doesn't believe in the existance of gods or an afterlife, an antitheist believes that a religion based on a "dictator god" makes humanity no better than slaves. Antitheists are a different breed, with an agenda that, first of all, points to an unpleasant experience with religion, and second of all, points to an unbelievable amount of egotism. I think that people like Hitchens do believe in a god, deep down, and (not meaning to be crude)the idea of that kind of authority over them just makes their butt twitch. The antitheist has probably always had issues with authority, and take it out on God because he is the ultimate authority.

Can I just interrupt here as an atheist to say, quit psychoanalyzing me, without any sort of justified descriptions, by putting words/ideas into my mouth/head?

An anti-theist is one who not only rejects the plausibility of a god and the eternal soul, but also believes that religion (as particularly evidenced in the Middle East and Middle Ages) causes irrational thought that can disregard a person's inherent right to life and a unique outlook on existence. My experience with aniti-theism is that it is a category that encompasses a vast order of ideas that sees religion (and in fact most dogmatically systematic beliefs) as something that prevents the free expression of one's individual reasoning faculty. An anti-theist simply believes that religion is a creation of the human mind to basically control the behavior of others.

Now I am personally not in affiliation with any popular atheistic schools of thought, though I'm sure I agree in principle with a lot of what's out there. My rejection of religion is not because of a deeply scarring experience, it is the result of my own reasoning and the idea I have that a philosophy of life that is separate from religion is more true to the principles of humanity that I adhere to. I base my moral decisions on what I think is best in the long term (though within this world), not on a prescribed set of guidelines. That said, I will admit that sometimes my moral decisions are based on less than completely noble principles, but I really cannot see how this or any of my other perhaps unique fundamental units of action are inherently Christian. Most of these ideas that are seen as "Christian" are, in fact, older than the Christian faith. (as are many ideas)

Those who have agreed with Redzeppelin's statements have yet to explain in detail how someone like myself, who rejects god, many of the teachings of Jesus, and all supernatural entities, is somehow, deep within my inner being, a Christ follower. Please, explain. I feel very uncomfortable by your tendency to place such broad generalizations on a vast segment of individuals such as myself.

[AwayAloneAlast]

My biggest wish is that more Christians (and more people, in general) would follow the example of the Quakers, by far my favourite denomination of Christianity. I'm an agnostic-atheist myself, but I look to the Quakers as an excellent example of what good Christians are, and what Jesus would've likely endorsed.

[Redzeppelin]

So, then, subconsciously is that person a Christian? Will God take them in, considering the good that they do to be in His name?

No. A Christian is someone who has made a conscious decision to follow Christ (hence the name). What I suggest is that the atheist's rejection of God doesn't mean that his goodness is separate from God - it still comes from Him. What I'm questioning is the idea that a person can be good apart from God. The Bible says "no."




And further, consider the "Christian" that has accepted Christ, and really meant it at the time, but after church he beats his wife, cheats on his taxes, and "provokes his children to wrath". Will God cast him away, due to his actions, regardless of his original submission to God?:brickwall

The "Christian" who is doing the above listed sins/crimes has ceased to be a "Christian" in spirit (which is the only form in which it counts with God - "name only" Christians are no such thing). God "casts" no one away - we choose to abandon Him.

[Trillian]

Can I just interrupt here as an atheist to say, quit psychoanalyzing me, without any sort of justified descriptions, by putting words/ideas into my mouth/head?

Please note: If you have read anything else that I have written in this thread, you will see that I am talking about one atheist in particular, a dear friend of mine. I am not attempting to make all atheists out to be either villains or saints. However, when a person like Hitchens reacts with sheer outrage and anger towards the concept of faith, that makes me suspect deeper issues other than just a lack of belief in things spiritual. I have no problem with anyone's religion, or lack thereof. I am simply trying to understand things as best I can, without tromping on the spiritual or non-spiritual toes of others.


An anti-theist is one who not only rejects the plausibility of a god and the eternal soul, but also believes that religion (as particularly evidenced in the Middle East and Middle Ages) causes irrational thought that can disregard a person's inherent right to life and a unique outlook on existence.

Yep.


My experience with aniti-theism is that it is a category that encompasses a vast order of ideas that sees religion (and in fact most dogmatically systematic beliefs) as something that prevents the free expression of one's individual reasoning faculty. An anti-theist simply believes that religion is a creation of the human mind to basically control the behavior of others.

But, since you brought it up, couldn't you say that some Atheists and Antitheists act in a way that "prevents the expression of one's individual reasoning faculty"? And is not antitheism a creation of the human mind? Too, don't people like Hitchens attempt to control the behavior of others by attempting to undermine their faith, and convince the undecided that those of us who believe in some form of spirituality are wide-eyed idiots or easily lead automatons? Browbeating people because of their beliefs is no better than jamming religion down the throats of those who do not believe.



Now I am personally not in affiliation with any popular atheistic schools of thought, though I'm sure I agree in principle with a lot of what's out there. My rejection of religion is not because of a deeply scarring experience, it is the result of my own reasoning and the idea I have that a philosophy of life that is separate from religion is more true to the principles of humanity that I adhere to. I base my moral decisions on what I think is best in the long term (though within this world), not on a prescribed set of guidelines. That said, I will admit that sometimes my moral decisions are based on less than completely noble principles, but I really cannot see how this or any of my other perhaps unique fundamental units of action are inherently Christian. Most of these ideas that are seen as "Christian" are, in fact, older than the Christian faith. (as are many ideas)

Now here I must extend an apology. I just re-read my comments on antitheism, and I realize that while trying to commit my thoughts to writing, I made some very general statements in my haste. I was not referring to ALL atheists and so forth, but to a certain class of people that refer to themselves as such. Please note that I refer to both Hitchens and to "the so -called atheist that spends his time attacking the faith of others", not every person that doesn't believe in God. (though I can see where you would think that, from the post you quoted.) I hope you can accept my humble apology.

[Trillian]

No. A Christian is someone who has made a conscious decision to follow Christ (hence the name). What I suggest is that the atheist's rejection of God doesn't mean that his goodness is separate from God - it still comes from Him. What I'm questioning is the idea that a person can be good apart from God. The Bible says "no."

Wow. Okay, I get you! And I have thought of the concept that goodness is impossible without God. What I remind myself is that the Bible was written by human men who were Divinely inspired, but who were, after all, human men, subject to the fallibility of being imperfect mortals. I don't know if that makes me sacrilegious or not, but I think that covers the things that don't make sense to me. :D

[Morten]

I was thinking about this tonight: Say an Atheist lives a good life, respects the beliefs of others, is faithful and kind to his or her spouse, does not lie, cheat, steal, and generally lives a life of charity and kindness. Is that not incredibly impressive, considering the Atheist does not believe in any God or Adversary, any concept of retribution or reward, and believes that they will just "wink out" when they die? I am a Christian, and I must admit, there have been times that I have "done the right thing" just because of the concept of sin, and my own religious guilt.

It is one of those stupid Christian misconceptions that we atheists are a bunch of nihilists. That is hardly the case. On the contrary, we place our "faith" in our fellow man, and not in the idea of an elusive after-life. We believe this life is all there is and so seek to live it thoroughly. We believe human morals and ideals are man-made and so do more to protect them and encourage them.

[dzebra]

We believe human morals and ideals are man-made and so do more to protect them and encourage them.

Wouldn't it make more sense that someone who believe morals are from an all-powerful God be more willing to protect and encourage them than a person who believes that morals come from humans?

[Abraxas]

This is the most important point.The problem with this sentiment is that there seems to be a growing number of atheist who aren't merely the questioning doubters,but are more the Christopher Hitchens,H.L Mencken types.These people see religion as inherently evil and publicly seek to undermine it while treating the rest of the faithful as unintelligent,unevolved,bloodthirsty animals.
.

Isn't that because Americans take their religion so seriously that feelings are necessarily extreme about it? I'm an atheist myself, reached atheism consciously despite a religious upbringing, but do not feel any hatred against believers of any sort (except if they are bigoted and intolerant), probably because the country I live in doesn't take religion seriously enough for my to want to systematically undermine it.. On the contrary, I'm very interested in religious feeling and theology.

In answer to the original question of the topic, I would say that in the Western world at least, we may not all be devout believers but our vision of the world remains Judeo-Christian... And there do seem to be some apparently universal moral imperatives (murder is rarely encouraged, I feel).
You can't confuse morality and religion, either...

[thom]

Il Penseroso, very simply, yes, virtue predates christianity, but an organized religion preaching virtue, at least in the west didnt. The christic force predates Jesus, but Jesus came to symbolise it. Naturally Christians refer to the idea in terms of the one, or in this case one of many who taught it, just like we constantly refer to darwin as the father of evolution when he didnt create it or claim to be sole owner of the theory, he just discovered it and taught it.

[SirRaustusBear]

Zoroastrianism was very organized and taught a moral code. Most tenets of Christianity have ancestors in older faiths, so though Christians may speak of Christ as if he invented morality, murder and theft were frowned upon long before even early Judaism.

Also, the idea that good Athiests are really just unwitting Christians seems kind of silly. A Muslim could claim good Christians are just unwitting Muslims and so on, but it isn't true. Good people exist in just about every religious and non-religious group, as do bad people.

[Trillian]

It is one of those stupid Christian misconceptions that we atheists are a bunch of nihilists. That is hardly the case.

Just as it is a stupid "non-believer" misconception that we Christians are all a bunch of bigoted, self-righteous, judgmental drones.:D

[Abraxas]

Wouldn't it make more sense that someone who believe morals are from an all-powerful God be more willing to protect and encourage them than a person who believes that morals come from humans?

Not necessarily: if you believe in the presence of an all-mighty God, it seems logical, on the contrary, that you would be more fatalistic and trust Him to do the work! ;)

[NikolaiI]

Honest virtue is, in my opinion, far more impressive coming from the repressed and imposed-upon Christian than from the freethinker. Respectful behavior, from a typical human being who places any trust in his or her personal judgment, is quite normal. I do not consider "good deeds", performed in an effort to keep oneself out of hell, particularly impressive. But it's rather difficult for an outsider (like myself) to tell the difference, with regard to what motivates a Christian. It seems like it would take an impossible act of will to actually consider one's actions apart from what I've come to call the Divine Threat. That is to say, presented with the choice between heaven and hell, one would reasonably direct one's actions toward the former, I should think - and yet, mere fear seems to be considered insufficient. Something more is required - doubtless, given the pattern of Biblical rhetoric, something only God can supply. But under that kind of threat, I can't but think that there is no other motivation. One does good deeds to keep out of the fire...and yet that's not reason enough. Beautifully circular; utterly miserable.
Thus, an atheist who lives a "good life" is less impressive, because, in addition to being free of the stifling imposition of Christian doctrine on his behavior (and the perverse desires inspired thereby), he is not forced to scrutinize his every action in order to determine whether it was motivated by fear or by genuine good-will. Obviously it was the latter, as the atheist has nothing to be afraid of.
Anyway, that's my two cents for the day. Sorry for the long post. :)

This is fine, if you believe in hell. But countless Christians do not, and they are correct in doing so. People on here seem to be saying often that Christians fear God, or they think you should. While I know America is not entirely religious, I can speak from a wider perspective when I tell you that this is a limited, inaccurate view of Christians. Percentage wise, most Christians I know-- in the hundreds, if not thousands-- believe that God is Love.

[NikolaiI]

Just as it is a stupid "non-believer" misconception that we Christians are all a bunch of bigoted, self-righteous, judgmental drones.:D

Trillian, you are correct.

[El Viejo]

I was thinking about this tonight: Say an Atheist lives a good life, respects the beliefs of others, is faithful and kind to his or her spouse, does not lie, cheat, steal, and generally lives a life of charity and kindness. Is that not incredibly impressive, considering the Atheist does not believe in any God or Adversary, any concept of retribution or reward, and believes that they will just "wink out" when they die? I am a Christian, and I must admit, there have been times that I have "done the right thing" just because of the concept of sin, and my own religious guilt.

You've received a lot of thoughtful feedback on your query, Trillian. I'm interested in where you are now.

More specifically, and this isn't a flippant question, despite how it might sound, but if two people live identical, above reproach lives, having a form of Godliness, as it were, and the only difference between them is one does so because of their commitment to Christ and the other has some other reason, what is the difference? Apart from the eternal consequences, that is.

I imagine you've asked your friend about his/her motivations. What are they?

A lot of people puzzle over the same questions, and a lot of ministers of the Gospel have addressed them. "The Almost Christian" by John Wesley is one such answer: http://forerunner.com/forerunner/X0620_Wesley_-_Almost_Chri.html

[Trillian]

You've received a lot of thoughtful feedback on your query, Trillian. I'm interested in where you are now.

More specifically, and this isn't a flippant question, despite how it might sound, but if two people live identical, above reproach lives, having a form of Godliness, as it were, and the only difference between them is one does so because of their commitment to Christ and the other has some other reason, what is the difference? Apart from the eternal consequences, that is.

I imagine you've asked your friend about his/her motivations. What are they?

Thanks for asking. I am still in a state of unrest, but I have decided that I have a great deal of respect for anyone who has no spiritual life, but still acts like a Christian should. But my crisis remains: Is my God worth loving and worshiping when he will let a good person who doesn't believe burn for eternity next to a person that rapes a child, or tortures a woman?

Frankly, in answer to your second question, I find it more admirable for a person to resist their baser desires for no other reason than to keep themselves separate from the beasties. You know, someone who believes that there is no reward coming to them, but acts as though there is. I still think there is a huge difference between that person, and one looking forward to their eternal reward. I work with a person, a (in my opinion) lazy Christian whose answer to all that life throws at her is "I just can't wait until my life is over, so I can go to Heaven, and all these problems will go away." Nothing seems to matter to her, because she knows that she is going to Heaven. My atheist friend makes his days count, and though he has his faults, he tries so much harder than the woman I work with to do the right thing, and weather the problems that come his way.

I have asked my friend about his motivations, and he says that his parents were not religious. Though exposed to religion as he got older, he found the idea of worshiping any "god", and abiding by rules set down in a book written by men, divinely inspired or not, seemed dubious at best. He has told me that he wishes that he could believe in something greater than himself, but just doesn't see how, given the horrible things that religion has been responsible for, and the horrible things that happen in the world. As I stated in an earlier post, I cannot understand how God can't find a place for him in Heaven.

[Kwistina]

Trillion: Greetings from one believer to another! I am new to these forums, but I happened upon this, and have a question for you.

Simply this: what are your standards for measuring goodness? Do they include the unseen, like personal motivation (which is virtually unmeasurable)?

There are several passages in scripture that equivocate outward actions and internal motivations or thoughts. In other words, if you are perfect externally, but not so internally, you are not perfect. Or even good. What makes the erring Christian different from a seemingly perfect non-believer? I think it has a great deal to do with the condition of the heart. Has he ever, even for a small second, wished ill upon another? Or perhaps, for you, it is more important to show external restraint upon internal conflict. Is this where most of your dilemna abides? That he looks good (whether or not he may be)?

I was just wondering! It's an age-old question, and a good one at that. Unfortunately, most people take issue that God would equate even the mere thought of sin with the execution of sin, that he would punish the man who lives sinlessly and thinks a single sinful thought.

But, again, how do you define and measure goodness (this is actually thrown out to anyone)?

[El Viejo]

Thanks for asking. I am still in a state of unrest, but I have decided that I have a great deal of respect for anyone who has no spiritual life, but still acts like a Christian should. But my crisis remains: Is my God worth loving and worshiping when he will let a good person who doesn't believe burn for eternity next to a person that rapes a child, or tortures a woman?

Frankly, in answer to your second question, I find it more admirable for a person to resist their baser desires for no other reason than to keep themselves separate from the beasties. You know, someone who believes that there is no reward coming to them, but acts as though there is. I still think there is a huge difference between that person, and one looking forward to their eternal reward. I work with a person, a (in my opinion) lazy Christian whose answer to all that life throws at her is "I just can't wait until my life is over, so I can go to Heaven, and all these problems will go away." Nothing seems to matter to her, because she knows that she is going to Heaven. My atheist friend makes his days count, and though he has his faults, he tries so much harder than the woman I work with to do the right thing, and weather the problems that come his way.

I have asked my friend about his motivations, and he says that his parents were not religious. Though exposed to religion as he got older, he found the idea of worshiping any "god", and abiding by rules set down in a book written by men, divinely inspired or not, seemed dubious at best. He has told me that he wishes that he could believe in something greater than himself, but just doesn't see how, given the horrible things that religion has been responsible for, and the horrible things that happen in the world. As I stated in an earlier post, I cannot understand how God can't find a place for him in Heaven.

It doesn't sound like Wesley's message helped much. As persuasive as he is, he doesn't really explain the whys.

This is a tough place to be in. I saw my father in your spot, and I've spent some time there too.

Catholicism addresses what your talking about with a place called Purgatory. You've probably heard of it. People who by all measures, save one, either deserve reward, or at least don't deserve punishment, are sent there to be purged of their imperfections. I liked the idea because it left an avenue for those who were not 'beasties' but not the elect either. I rejected the idea because, like the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, or Holy Days of Obligation, there wasn't any scriptural basis for it.

[El Viejo]

Unfortunately, most people take issue that God would equate even the mere thought of sin with the execution of sin, that he would punish the man who lives sinlessly and thinks a single sinful thought.

But, again, how do you define and measure goodness (this is actually thrown out to anyone)?

Those are good questions. Matthew 5:8 seems to say it's just as sinful to think something as to do it.

Measuring goodness - Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness, so it sounds like 'goodness' is measured by whether or not one believes God.

But Abraham didn't entirely believe God. Hagar and Ishmael are testimony to that fact. But some portion of his belief was good enough.

So it would seem a little faith is enough, but a little sin is enough too.

[blazeofglory]

Indeed religious or irreligious, theism or atheism. These are essentials labels, and of course one can live above all these externals, or kind of conditioning. You are above all these attributes. Theism or atheism living rightly is better.

[Trillian]

Trillion: Greetings from one believer to another! I am new to these forums, but I happened upon this, and have a question for you.

Simply this: what are your standards for measuring goodness? Do they include the unseen, like personal motivation (which is virtually unmeasurable)?

There are several passages in scripture that equivocate outward actions and internal motivations or thoughts. In other words, if you are perfect externally, but not so internally, you are not perfect. Or even good. What makes the erring Christian different from a seemingly perfect non-believer? I think it has a great deal to do with the condition of the heart. Has he ever, even for a small second, wished ill upon another? Or perhaps, for you, it is more important to show external restraint upon internal conflict. Is this where most of your dilemna abides? That he looks good (whether or not he may be)?

I was just wondering! It's an age-old question, and a good one at that. Unfortunately, most people take issue that God would equate even the mere thought of sin with the execution of sin, that he would punish the man who lives sinlessly and thinks a single sinful thought.

But, again, how do you define and measure goodness (this is actually thrown out to anyone)?

Salutations, Kwistina, welcome to the forum. As you can see, there are a good bunch of people with a great deal of wisdom lurking about these parts, and I hope you enjoy your time here!

I suppose that my standards for goodness would probably be something like this: You do good things without expecting something in return. You make the decision to avoid bad things because of the effect your actions might have on others. BUT, you don't act like a good person just to avoid getting in trouble. I think someone mentioned an example in this post. He said that he doesn't remain faithful to his wife because he is afraid that if he cheats, she will catch him. He remains faithful because he loves his wife, and doesn't want to hurt her.

I am just struggling with the idea that there is just one hell, and all that don't believe in God will suffer there for an eternity regardless of their actions in life.

[blazeofglory]

I was thinking about this tonight: Say an Atheist lives a good life, respects the beliefs of others, is faithful and kind to his or her spouse, does not lie, cheat, steal, and generally lives a life of charity and kindness. Is that not incredibly impressive, considering the Atheist does not believe in any God or Adversary, any concept of retribution or reward, and believes that they will just "wink out" when they die? I am a Christian, and I must admit, there have been times that I have "done the right thing" just because of the concept of sin, and my own religious guilt.

I think it is a good idea. I like the idea and after all service is what we must do and indeed a man of service is superior to or holier than a man of god and religion.