What is the point of human sufferring?

[jebus197]

So OK this is a question that for various personal reasons has been weighing on my mind recently. What in the view of other forum members here is the point of human suffering?

I don't want any discussion about God, or religion, or anything like that - and I know that suffering isn't unique to humanity. But there is one aspect of human suffering that sets us apart from the animals - and that is our capacity to experience emotional suffering. (Again some might dispute this, but let's just assume for now that this is true too).

So the question is, in the absence of any God (and let's just say for the sake of this discussion that this is simply a statement of fact - since this will help steer the topic) why do we suffer?

Of course by suffer I mean when we loose someone through bereavement, or when a relationship ends, or when a friend betrays us, or when we hear of the suffering of others, or perhaps when we are very low or depressed (at which point) suffering can seem to become unbearable), or for any one of a million other reasons that we may suffer in this way.

Some doctors and psychologists tend to treat suffering as a disorder - but I'm not sure I agree with this. I mean what would the world be like if there was no suffering in it? Would we be able to appreciate the suffering of others? Would we be able to experience joy? Would we still be able to feel compassion? Would love still have the same kind of meaning that it may have now?

In short is a world without suffering a genuinely desirable thing for us to have?

I just can't help feeling that our capacity to suffer is what makes us human - and that without this we would be no better off than many animals. Also this capacity to suffer in this way appears to have a deeper sense of meaning. It is to say the least 'inefficient' from an evolutionary perspective to suffer in this way - so why should this capacity even exist within us, if it isn't there 'for something.'

Again, it seems that this argument might lend itself to a religious debate - but I do very much want to avoid this. There must be other reasons why people feel that suffering is relevant and/or important, both to us as a species and as individuals?

If anyone has any specific literary or philosophical quotes on this topic, please feel free to share these too. (Indeed these would be very much appreciated).

[Morten]

I don't quite understand where it is you're going with this... it seems you may as well asked what is the point of human joy?

I don't think there is a point. If you say there is no god then there isn't much "point", or predetermined meaning, behind our existence and so there is no point to suffering or happiness.

You could talk about the importance of suffering. What it teaches us about ourselves, about understanding others who suffer. The extent to which allows us to enjoy non-suffering more, etc.

[Redzeppelin]

Well, since you've set the parameters that religion and God (two of the things that give meaning to suffering) are outlawed here, then the answer is that there is no point to human suffering: it just happens and we as humans should try to avoid it at all costs.

Things that "have a point" are viewed as having some greater meaning behind them - some end that the suffering justifies (hence the use of the word "point"). Once we decide that the universe is a place of random, blind forces, then suffering loses any possible "point" because it has no meaningful framework, no larger context inside of which to occur.

[jebus197]

That depends on your perspective. I am a 'godless person', so suffering for me can't be understood (or even taken seriously) from this perspective.

If it has other functions I think it is useful to understand what these other functions may be.

It is possible to consider a number of deep philosophical topics in the absence of any belief in a God - or some other higher form of intelligence - although I can see how this may seem very difficult to do (and possibly even pointless) to someone who does have a strong belief of this kind.

We may each have our own set of blinkers. But still we can see different aspects of the truth.

But none of us can claim to own it all. My belief is that at least not all suffering is pointless -particularly emotional suffering. As I said, there is almost a certain sense that this is what defines us as a species. (Among perhaps other things).

Take for example the loss of a loved one, or the breakdown of a relationship - why would this persist beyond a reasonable point - and potentially still remain painful many years later - perhaps even until we die, if this served no useful purpose (evolutionary or otherwise)? Does this not in some way infer that suffering may have a greater purpose - even if this purpose does not infer the existence of a God? Clearly good things can come from suffering - even if they may not appear good to those who are experiencing this kind of pain. I'm sure there are many artists, philosophers and writers who have encountered deep personal pain - but whose contribution to the world because of this has served to significantly enrich the pool of human culture.

I am a computer scientist by profession - so not well versed in Literature and Philosophy, so surely people within this field have had a great deal to say about this throughout the ages?

[blazeofglory]

So OK this is a question that for various personal reasons has been weighing on my mind recently. What in the view of other forum members here is the point of human suffering?

I don't want any discussion about God, or religion, or anything like that - and I know that suffering isn't unique to humanity. But there is one aspect of human suffering that sets us apart from the animals - and that is our capacity to experience emotional suffering. (Again some might dispute this, but let's just assume for now that this is true too).

So the question is, in the absence of any God (and let's just say for the sake of this discussion that this is simply a statement of fact - since this will help steer the topic) why do we suffer?

Of course by suffer I mean when we loose someone through bereavement, or when a relationship ends, or when a friend betrays us, or when we hear of the suffering of others, or perhaps when we are very low or depressed (at which point) suffering can seem to become unbearable), or for any one of a million other reasons that we may suffer in this way.

Some doctors and psychologists tend to treat suffering as a disorder - but I'm not sure I agree with this. I mean what would the world be like if there was no suffering in it? Would we be able to appreciate the suffering of others? Would we be able to experience joy? Would we still be able to feel compassion? Would love still have the same kind of meaning that it may have now?

In short is a world without suffering a genuinely desirable thing for us to have?

I just can't help feeling that our capacity to suffer is what makes us human - and that without this we would be no better off than many animals. Also this capacity to suffer in this way appears to have a deeper sense of meaning. It is to say the least 'inefficient' from an evolutionary perspective to suffer in this way - so why should this capacity even exist within us, if it isn't there 'for something.'

Again, it seems that this argument might lend itself to a religious debate - but I do very much want to avoid this. There must be other reasons why people feel that suffering is relevant and/or important, both to us as a species and as individuals?

If anyone has any specific literary or philosophical quotes on this topic, please feel free to share these too. (Indeed these would be very much appreciated).

In fact suffering has been something that has been philosophized in many literary works and in religions too. In acality it has nothing to do with suffering.
Many religions kind of believe that through sufferings or mortifications one gets purfied or it is a catharsis in point of fact.But truly it is not so at all.

While suffering is very fundamental to life and we can not do away with and it is something integral to life, it is yet not something to philosophize or rationalize at all.

Here we should not connect this issues to religiosity.

[dramasnot6]

It's partially evolutionary, depending on what kind of suffering we are talking about. It's biological instinct to react to certain stimuli with pain-if we step on a nail,our foot is made to suffer so we get off the nail to prevent further damage. In terms of mental and emotional suffering- perhaps the same evolutionary idea applies. Our bodies allow the feeling of suffering,be it emotional,physical or mental, as a message to us about how our body/mind is coping with certain stimuli.
Of course, as humans we are all somewhat masochists and drama queens :p So perhaps we like to suffer a bit more than is neccesary...for the attention ;)

[jebus197]

Again I am not talking about physical pain. Also calling someone who has suffered from the loss of a loved one, or who suffers from a chronic form of depression a 'drama queen' is probably only the kind of statement that someone who has never encountered true extended suffering could make. Yet it remains possible at least that some good, or something meaningful can still emerge from this.

[NikolaiI]

Jebus, there was clearly no disrespect in that reply.

But anyhow, to your question I recommend you read "Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas."

[crazyed]

Personally I think that suffering is not only necessary, it's a beautiful part of life. Suffering, ecstasy and other extremes of emotion help us define what it is to be human and deal with emotion beyond our control. I for one would never want to live in a world that was emotionally flat enough to not involve suffering or sadness. On the subject of something meaningful emerging from suffering, I would argue that at least in this sense, whatever doesn't kill you actually does make you stronger. I guess the point I'm making here is that emotional maturity exists somewhat like weight training: the muscles only regrow stronger after they've gotten all torn up.

[V.Jayalakshmi]

Dear Jebus,

I do relate to that part about suffering because of the loss of a loved one and I am also thinking 'Why".Nicolai who posted said plaese read'Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas.Plaese let me know the author's name.I recommend Dr.Brian Weiss's book 'Many Lives,Many Masters'.I am also wanting to know the answer to Why?

[Logos]

....Nicolai who posted said plaese read'Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglas.Plaese let me know the author's name.
Biography and etexts of Frederick Douglass :)
http://www.online-literature.com/frederick_douglass/

including "A Narrative on the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave"
http://www.online-literature.com/frederick_douglass/frederick_douglass_narrative/

--

[Gadget Girl]

I think there is suffering because that is how we make life equal. You suffer, one day something good will happen to it, when you're happy, one moment you never know you are crying helplessly alone in a corner. What I mean is, you can't be happy if you don't suffer. Yeah, imagine if we don't feel sadness or frustration, we live our lives so perfect that you wanted nothing more, but there will be a time that you can't feel happiness because everyday of your life you're happy, you don't feel upset or wanted to punch the air because of your madness anymore.

I guess that's what life is. Things don't come your way all the time.

[kilted exile]

To allow us to remember that there's always some poor sod worse off than we are, which in turn cheers us up and for a while forget about our own suffering for a while.

[Lote-Tree]

Point of suffering?

perhaps None.

Some people don't suffer at all.

Others willingly.

Others made to.

Point of suffering?

perhaps None.

There is no need to suffer. There are other ways of learning which does not involve pain...

[NikolaiI]

There is no need to suffer. There are other ways of learning which does not involve pain...

His Divine Grace A.C. Swami Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada writes that if one lives a spiritual life then they get the merit of an austere life, even though they do not practice austerity.

[jessicav516]

I think there is suffering because that is how we make life equal. You suffer, one day something good will happen to it, when you're happy, one moment you never know you are crying helplessly alone in a corner. What I mean is, you can't be happy if you don't suffer. Yeah, imagine if we don't feel sadness or frustration, we live our lives so perfect that you wanted nothing more, but there will be a time that you can't feel happiness because everyday of your life you're happy, you don't feel upset or wanted to punch the air because of your madness anymore.

I guess that's what life is. Things don't come your way all the time.

i agree- how can we know joy if not for suffering... i think in the long run, life balances itself out, we have our own equilibrium... the joy balences out the suffering... i also think that suffering is a way for us to learn... a way to learn detachment, a way to learn to love, but also to lose, not in vain, but in a way to learn to find joy in what has been... and a peace in what the present... i think joy and suffering are an essential part of the human experience, it is our job to find the meaning of our personal suffering, and utimately find the joy in what we once had or experienced... :)

[manolia]

To allow us to remember that there's always some poor sod worse off than we are, which in turn cheers us up and for a while forget about our own suffering for a while.

:lol: :lol: Agreed


. There are other ways of learning which does not involve pain...

But why?? Pain is so close to pleasure :brow:

[Oblomov]

Jebus,

I commend you on raising the question of suffering and helping all of us to think about it on a deeper level. You are approaching it as a philosopher (which we all have the capability to do) and, thus, encourage you to consider more. While such an exploration may never definitively answer a question such as “what is the value of suffering,” it can help to characterize the issue and enrich your life beyond expectation. Have you ever read Schopenhauer? If you don’t have time for all of “The World as Will and Representation” (an ambitious task), try the chapter titled “On the Vanity and Suffering of Life” from volume two of the Payne translation. Not only is it free of more intense and technical terminology, it is beautifully written, even in English. Ultimately, though, trust your voice and the questions you come up with. Never abandon the seemingly basic inquiries; they're almost always the most rewarding.

O.

[City Of Dreams]

Bump.

pseudo-int,

Human suffering was not a gear or trinket in some grand scheme of life, but just a side effect from the workings of society. Also Life would be rather bland without certain extremes.

Does anyone know the poet who said beauty could not exist without the ugly?

[TheSeeker]

Some doctors and psychologists tend to treat suffering as a disorder - but I'm not sure I agree with this.


I tend to agree with these doctors and psychologists. But only in their diagnosis (that 'suffering is a disorder'), but not in their treatment. How can you treat someone when you have the same problem deep down yourself? Just look up the net on suicide rates by profession, you will see that medical professionals are up at the top. Some people argue that this is because they have easier access to drugs. But I believe that they have a higher rate of suffering from depression because they are human and they are in a demanding job. When I was young (and I am now old enough to appreciate this fact), I asked myself many, many times why I suffered so much while others seemed to be much luckier and happier. But, I now realize that there is not a single person in the world who can affirm that he/she has always been happy in all his/her life. Even very spiritual people still suffer a great deal (at least before their enlightenment). I think that suffering comes from the inside. It is not the external circumstances that make us suffer. It's our inner reaction to external circumstances. When the same unfortunate event happens to multiple people, the degree of suffering varies among those people. This means that suffering is entirely subjective. If man can create something then man can destroy it. The same goes with suffering. I think that the degree of suffering is proportional to the strength of the identification of the self with its possessions in the material and emotional worlds (including wealth, reputation, loved ones, ...). And I believe that this is the key to end suffering.



Would we be able to appreciate the suffering of others? Would we be able to experience joy? Would we still be able to feel compassion? Would love still have the same kind of meaning that it may have now?


I think that there is a big difference between compassion/true love/empathy (appreciating the suffering of others) and suffering that causes emotional and physical disturbances. With the former, you still feel the suffering of others and in yourself you are like a quiet witness with an open heart. Your heart goes with the sufferers but you still have a clear mind and are ready to take any sensible action to alleviate that suffering of others. When you suffer in love, then this love may not be true love. It's not the love of the other person for the other person's sake. If you examine it closely, it may be that it is the love of what the other person gave you and now you have lost what used to belong to you. Although more subtle, it's no different to losing some material object that you "loved" dearly. Suffering goes with joy/pleasure but inner peace and compassion and true love are above both of them.

[blazeofglory]

Suffering? Could you be here posting if your mother did not suffer, or did not have the labor of pains.