How many Saviours?

[PrinceMyshkin]

There was Moses,
who led the Israelites out of Egypt
and brought down the tablets of the Law,

Jesus, who preached on the mountain
and died on the cross,

Mohammed, who delivered the Q’uran
and led the conquering Arab armies,

and Gautama, who sat patiently
under the Bodhi tree...

How many Saviours does it take
to change a light-bulb?

[Sweets America]

I will repeat what I told you, I guess. I didn't like this poem that much because the four first stanzas were too 'simple' for me. It's like putting the A and the Z of the alphabet without putting anything in between.

Now your last stanza is intriguing. It makes me think. All those saviors and their stories, compared to our everyday life and the simple thing of changing a lightbulb. You are not sure where these lines come from but something tells me that they mean more than you think. There is something but I cannot put my finger on it.

That makes me think, perhaps the simplicity of the four first stanzas was intended relative to the end. I don't know.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I will repeat what I told you, I guess. I didn't like this poem that much because the four first stanzas were too 'simple' for me. It's like putting the A and the Z of the alphabet without putting anything in between.[QUOTE]

I agree and that's a witty way of putting it. It's a lazy poem. I shouldn't have posted it.

[QUOTE]Now your last stanza is intriguing. It makes me think. All those saviors and their stories, compared to our everyday life and the simple thing of changing a lightbulb. You are not sure where these lines come from but something tells me that they mean more than you think. There is something but I cannot put my finger on it.

That makes me think, perhaps the simplicity of the four first stanzas was intended relative to the end. I don't know.

Well, as you know, I had those last two lines as the conclusion to some other poem, where they were facetious and irrelevant. I removed them from that poem but couldn't bear to get rid of them entirely so I constructed the
rest of this for those last two lines.

[Virgil]

As much as I liked the other poem this morning Prince, let me say with all due respect I dislike this one as much. Frankly it's the pits. I have no idea what it's attempting to say, nor do I see any poetry.

[pbmn]

As much as I liked the other poem this morning Prince, let me say with all due respect I dislike this one as much. Frankly it's the pits. I have no idea what it's attempting to say, nor do I see any poetry.

I completely disagree. Maybe I am overanalyzing, but in my opinion, I believe that he is trying to get across the point that all these great role models, these great rulers throughout human history, and our world still is in utter chaos. The way I see it, "light bulb" represents the way we think, and even with these "philosophers" (depending on how you see them) we still haven't figured it out. Am I right, Prince?


I will repeat what I told you, I guess. I didn't like this poem that much because the four first stanzas were too 'simple' for me. It's like putting the A and the Z of the alphabet without putting anything in between.

I do agree, however, that your poem definitely lacks in depth, at least the first four stanzas. Yeah, the last one really hit me, but the first four... I couldn't really follow along with what you were trying to get at with them. It took me a while to actually catch on to your "message". Get more into detail, or explanation... actually, I don't have a clue on how you would improve them. I'll think about it.

[Virgil]

I completely disagree. Maybe I am overanalyzing, but in my opinion, I believe that he is trying to get across the point that all these great role models, these great rulers throughout human history, and our world still is in utter chaos. The way I see it, "light bulb" represents the way we think, and even with these "philosophers" (depending on how you see them) we still haven't figured it out. Am I right, Prince?

Let me see. Moses created a culture that has survived over 5000 years, Jesus over 2000 years and currently there over 2 billion Christians; Mohammed over 1500 years and currently over 1.5 billion followers. I'm not familiar with the fourth person. That aside, what does a light bulb have to do with the price of beans? If that's what Prince is saying then I find it rather trite.

[pbmn]

Yes, many have turned to follow these people, but yet there still is death and destruction. Numbers don't matter, as long as there is but one single "evil" or "corrupt" person alive, then you can't say that there is peace or that these people were 100% successful. Yes, they were successful, but not to the fullest extent. And that's what, in my opinion, the light bulb represents, the few evil or corrupt ideas that bring about chaos to our world.

Think of it in the words Prince put it: If you change an old bad light bulb with a new one, but that new one has a few faulty wires, will it be perfect or be able to light up the room to its fullest potential? Obviously no. Well, thats what these philosophers/religious leaders did in fact do, they changed an old light bulb with a better, newer one, but not a great/perfect one.

P.S. And as for the fourth person, he's Buddhist (and, if I am correct, an Indian ruler) and turned quite a few with his words.

[Virgil]

I don't want to get into a theological argument (actually I thought Prince was alluding to the followers not adhering to the Prophets) , but it strikes me as jumbled logic. Plus the changing a light bulb joke is a major league cliche.

[pbmn]

...actually I thought Prince was alluding to the followers not adhering to the Prophets

That's kind of what I was getting at before, I don't know, maybe I didn't word it correctly. (The ideas of the population today, being their followers and even their opposing audience.)

Wasn't particularily talking about the theological aspects either. I tried to avoid it actually. I got the cliche with the light bulb joke, I just thought that perhaps he had a meaning for it. We have the right to have our own views on poetry, that's what makes them so great. There are hundreds of ways to look at a poem, and all of them are correct. So you can stick with your opinion, and me with mine. Its very obvious that neither of us is to be easily persuaded by the other. It'd be nice to get a third opinion in here to help decipher the meaning of this poem (or whatever it is).

[Virgil]

That's kind of what I was getting at before, I don't know, maybe I didn't word it correctly. (The ideas of the population today, being their followers and even their opposing audience.)

Wasn't particularily talking about the theological aspects either. I tried to avoid it actually. I got the cliche with the light bulb joke, I just thought that perhaps he had a meaning for it. We have the right to have our own views on poetry, that's what makes them so great. There are hundreds of ways to look at a poem, and all of them are correct. So you can stick with your opinion, and me with mine. Its very obvious that neither of us is to be easily persuaded by the other. It'd be nice to get a third opinion in here to help decipher the meaning of this poem (or whatever it is).

Oh, hey i didn't mean to imply that your interpretation was wrong. It just proves my point that the logic of it is ambiuous in a mushy sort of way. My major problem with the poem is that I don't see anything really poetic in the first eight lines and then it ends with a huge cliche.

[pbmn]

Oh, ok then. I then agree with your opinion of his first four stanzas having no poetical sense to them. I haven't liked the way they sound from the beginning. I do, though, like the way he ends it with this common joke. I personally think it gives it a much needed kick. It does sound like he's giving a short history lesson and ending it with a joke, and my major problem would definitely be all but the end of his "poem".

[Sweets America]

Interesting discussion. This is a proof that you were right to post (/in posting?) this poem, Jer. :)

My view on this is that no one can really say if this is or if this is not poetry. There is no truth to me, it really depends on everyone and their sensibilities, and who cares if this is a poem or not? The important point to me is the discussion, not the conclusion. But this is only one opinion among others, and I do not deny the fact that perhaps we can decide what is poetry and what is not. We just have to keep in mind that what is not poetry for one person can become poetry to someone else, and this is the tricky thing of it.

Oh, about the saviors and the lightbulb, it made me think of how sometimes, all those discussions and beliefs about religion and mysticism just seem so far from our everyday and materialistic life for some people. You really see how strange it sounds when you put the saviors and the lightbulb in the same line: it gives some kind of incongruity, and this is what is striking and can make people wonder about the place of religion in everyday matters.

[JennaAnn]

Moses wasn't a saviour, he was a servant of God. Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins so that we might be saved. He was a Saviour. Muslims believe only that he was a great prophet. They also believe Mohammed was the Messiah and saviour. Others are inclined to belive he was rather the first of the false prophets. I have much respect for those of the Islaamic faith. Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
In answer to the question, you only need one saviour. The One who can really save you. In today's world which is filled with doubt and confusion it's easy to understand why some might have trouble figuring out who that is.
And if you really need a saviour to change a lightbulb, I suggest you attempt to figure out who it is quickly. there will be plenty of people from all faiths on forum's around he web who will help answer any questions you might have.

[ampoule]

The whole problem is that we have to change lightbulbs too often. Let's try the new compact fluorescent bulb. But wait! Even these lightbulbs have a dark side. Yikes. They will need recycling....mercury, you know.

I liked the poem, Prince. I'm cheap though. I love lightbulb jokes.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I completely disagree. Maybe I am overanalyzing, but in my opinion, I believe that he is trying to get across the point that all these great role models, these great rulers throughout human history, and our world still is in utter chaos. The way I see it, "light bulb" represents the way we think, and even with these "philosophers" (depending on how you see them) we still haven't figured it out. Am I right, Prince?

If you were any more right (in the sense of correct, you'd be a Republican!). Yes, that is very much what I meant.


I do agree, however, that your poem definitely lacks in depth, at least the first four stanzas.

I quite agree with you here. It lacks depth or liveliness. In fact, were it not for the responses it has received, I would delete it.


Yeah, the last one really hit me, but the first four... I couldn't really follow along with what you were trying to get at with them. It took me a while to actually catch on to your "message". Get more into detail, or explanation... actually, I don't have a clue on how you would improve them. I'll think about it.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Moses wasn't a saviour,

I was using the term "saviour" in a rather broad sense, although Moses WAS the saviour of the Israelites when they were in captivity and in delivering he Ten Commandments he might be thought to be a more universal saviour.


he was a servant of God. Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins so that we might be saved. He was a Saviour. Muslims believe only that he was a great prophet. They also believe Mohammed was the Messiah and saviour. Others are inclined to belive he was rather the first of the false prophets. I have much respect for those of the Islaamic faith. Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
In answer to the question, you only need one saviour. The One who can really save you. In today's world which is filled with doubt and confusion it's easy to understand why some might have trouble figuring out who that is.
And if you really need a saviour to change a lightbulb, I suggest you attempt to figure out who it is quickly. there will be plenty of people from all faiths on forum's around he web who will help answer any questions you might have.

I was using the image of the light-bulb as a symbol of the enlightenment we seek and - to judge from the strife in the world, most especially that which is of theological origin - the light we have received is dim if not non-existent.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Let me see. Moses created a culture that has survived over 5000 years, Jesus over 2000 years and currently there over 2 billion Christians; Mohammed over 1500 years and currently over 1.5 billion followers. I'm not familiar with the fourth person. That aside, what does a light bulb have to do with the price of beans? If that's what Prince is saying then I find it rather trite.

Polytheism was around for at least as long as any of the above, as were the notions of a flat earth and a geocentric universe. What does longevity have to do with truth or value? And since when was truth determined by majority vote?

The 4th person is the one who is commonly meant by the Buddha, although anyone who attains enlightenment becomes a or the Buddha.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Interesting discussion. This is a proof that you were right to post (/in posting?) this poem, Jer. :)

My view on this is that no one can really say if this is or if this is not poetry. There is no truth to me, it really depends on everyone and their sensibilities, and who cares if this is a poem or not?

Well, this IS after all a poetry forum, and therefore what is posted here ought to have at least one of the qualities we generally require of poems. In my belated opinion, my post may had some of that but if so to a very pale degree.


The important point to me is the discussion, not the conclusion. But this is only one opinion among others, and I do not deny the fact that perhaps we can decide what is poetry and what is not. We just have to keep in mind that what is not poetry for one person can become poetry to someone else, and this is the tricky thing of it.

Oh, about the saviors and the lightbulb, it made me think of how sometimes, all those discussions and beliefs about religion and mysticism just seem so far from our everyday and materialistic life for some people. You really see how strange it sounds when you put the saviors and the lightbulb in the same line: it gives some kind of incongruity, and this is what is striking and can make people wonder about the place of religion in everyday matters.

This is a freaking interesting point! Although one could take it that the light-bulb is a symbol for enlightenment (as pbmn did in #5) I embrace your interpretation, inasmuch as even the noblest of the concepts proposed by these various 'saviours' have had little if anything to do with improving the material circumstance of life on earth. Bravo!

[PrinceMyshkin]

Yes, many have turned to follow these people, but yet there still is death and destruction. Numbers don't matter, as long as there is but one single "evil" or "corrupt" person alive, then you can't say that there is peace or that these people were 100% successful. Yes, they were successful, but not to the fullest extent. And that's what, in my opinion, the light bulb represents, the few evil or corrupt ideas that bring about chaos to our world.

Think of it in the words Prince put it: If you change an old bad light bulb with a new one, but that new one has a few faulty wires, will it be perfect or be able to light up the room to its fullest potential? Obviously no. Well, thats what these philosophers/religious leaders did in fact do, they changed an old light bulb with a better, newer one, but not a great/perfect one.

P.S. And as for the fourth person, he's Buddhist (and, if I am correct, an Indian ruler) and turned quite a few with his words.

The third interpretation you're looking for might be the one provided by Sweets America in her second contribution to this thread, but what I chiefly want to say is that on the evidence of your several articulate and intelligent contributions to this thread, you're a most welcome addition to this site. Live long and prosper!