For what purpose does God exist, if he exists?

[Splendour]

So this particular question came to my mind, after watching a OVA of Saint Seiya (a popular Japanese anime in Asia and Europe, not in North America though), when the featured goddess Athena (more of a stereotypical Protector of Earth idea, not to be confused with the real Athena in Greek myth, though she is modeled after) asked this question to the Gods of Olympus who were prosecuting her Knights for fighting against the divines: "why do Gods exist? They exist for the humans. Therefore, Gods can also be said as the servants of Men."

For what purpose does God exist then, in today's religions? There are of course a million sociological/athropological, political or even (since all have been trying to use) scientific reasons. But let's for the sake of argument say that God does exist, then what's the purpose of existence? All religions endeavours to put purpose into our life, so what's God's?

And if God just..exists. Can't we come back and say, similariy, humans can just exist...without a purpose and therefore God doesn't exist?

And is that above answer posed by the Athena in anime also the answer to this question in the general context?

[Lote-Tree]

So this particular question came to my mind, after watching a OVA of Saint Seiya (a popular Japanese anime in Asia and Europe, not in North America though), when the featured goddess Athena (more of a stereotypical Protector of Earth idea, not to be confused with the real Athena in Greek myth, though she is modeled after) asked this question to the Gods of Olympus who were prosecuting her Knights for fighting against the divines: "why do Gods exist? They exist for the humans. Therefore, Gods can also be said as the servants of Men."

For what purpose does God exist then, in today's religions? There are of course a million sociological/athropological, political or even (since all have been trying to use) scientific reasons. But let's for the sake of argument say that God does exist, then what's the purpose of existence? All religions endeavours to put purpose into our life, so what's God's?

And if God just..exists. Can't we come back and say, similariy, humans can just exist...without a purpose and therefore God doesn't exist?

And is that above answer posed by the Athena in anime also the answer to this question in the general context?

Good question.

Religionists and particulary monotheist have grappled with this question and philosophers too. And they have come up with these kinds of answers.


God is Prime Mover.

First Cause.


etc.

Thus His/Her/it "Purpose" is thus to set things in motion.

[NikolaiI]

I would assume it's something more than that, Lote.

For instance to the question "what do we exist for?" my answer is that it's a laughably simplified question, and coming from a microscopic perspective, if it expects an answer in words. We only define these things by words by habit. We get too immersed in them and miss that we're not words, physical matter...is not the same as the word physical matter.

And God, which is supposed to be the infinite, mysterious, would be that much more removed from our words.

Nonetheless, we try to encapsulate him. I would say that God is the Creator. I don't know why (purpose), but I am pretty skeptical if it can be put into words.

[Morten]

I would assume it's something more than that, Lote.

For instance to the question "what do we exist for?" my answer is that it's a laughably simplified question, and coming from a microscopic perspective, if it expects an answer in words. We only define these things by words by habit. We get too immersed in them and miss that we're not words, physical matter...is not the same as the word physical matter.

And God, which is supposed to be the infinite, mysterious, would be that much more removed from our words.

Nonetheless, we try to encapsulate him. I would say that God is the Creator. I don't know why (purpose), but I am pretty skeptical if it can be put into words.

"Once you label me, you negate me." - Kierkegaard.

[Cezar_TheScribe]

Therefore, Gods can also be said as the servants of Men."


There's only one God and he doesn't exist to serve us.
Without God we wouldn't be here.

[NikolaiI]

"Once you label me, you negate me." - Kierkegaard.

So are you saying this in support of my main point, or did I not write it clearly at all, and you are trying to negate what I said because I called god a creator after I said that his purpose we couldn't put into words...

[Morten]

So are you saying this in support of my main point, or did I not write it clearly at all, and you are trying to negate what I said because I called god a creator after I said that his purpose we couldn't put into words...

Easy now. It was a quote I attributed in support of what you were saying.

Not that I agree. Since the idea of god, to me, is as man-made as Dracula or a cyclops, it should be weird if we could not label him/her/they.

Still, the quote was meant to reflect what you were saying to some degree.

[Captainqt]

God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own. We are not the Supreme Being. God is not here for us, but we are called to serve Him. That is our purpose. His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think. And if we would try I think that many of us would still confront it with negativity. WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness. Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.

[NikolaiI]

God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own. We are not the Supreme Being. God is not here for us, but we are called to serve Him. That is our purpose. His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think. And if we would try I think that many of us would still confront it with negativity. WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness. Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.

This was well written, and I think reflects true understanding.

[Mesalithasamut]

God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own. We are not the Supreme Being. God is not here for us, but we are called to serve Him. That is our purpose. His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think. And if we would try I think that many of us would still confront it with negativity. WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness. Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.

I'm in agreement with you, Captainqt; and I think that Thomas Paine expressed it best: I trouble not myself about the manner of future existence. I content myself with believing, even to positive conviction, that the power that gave me existence is able to continue it, in any form and manner he pleases, either with or without this body; and it appears more probable to me that I shall continue to exist hereafter than that I should have had existence, as I now have, before that existence began.

[Morten]

God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own.
Then how do you know he exists if you can't comprehend him?


His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think.
To believe his is intellectual suicide. And irrational.


WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness.
Prove it.


Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.
This is explains why you are religious. You can't accept the harsh biological realities of existence so you turn to a vague and illusory conception of "God". What about other living organisms? Flies? Birds? Wombats? Do they also go to heaven, or is there idea of eternal life not good enough for them?

God is a human invention.

[dzebra]

God is not a human invention. God is The Inventor.

God's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the rocks will cry out. The universe itself glorifies God by its existence. God shows his power, wisdom, and love in his creation, and creation glorifies him.

[Morten]

God is not a human invention. God is The Inventor.

God's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the rocks will cry out. The universe itself glorifies God by its existence. God shows his power, wisdom, and love in his creation, and creation glorifies him.

It is no more nonsensical to say the following, than it is to say what you have said above:

The giant purple bunny's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the smaller, less purple bunnies will cry out. The universie itself glorifies the giant purple bunny by its existence. The giant purple bunny shows its power, wisdom, and love in its creation, and creation glorifies it.

Problem is, how do you support any of these ridiculous claims? You're basically just talking from your rear-end. Please answer me this: How does the universe glorify god my its mere existence? How does god show his power, wisdom and love in his creation?

[NikolaiI]

Problem is, how do you support any of these ridiculous claims? You're basically just talking from your rear-end. Please answer me this: How does the universe glorify god my its mere existence? How does god show his power, wisdom and love in his creation?

I will address all of your points, straight forwardly, but you will address everyone with more respect. Who here has said to you " you are talking out of your butt "? I am speaking for more than myself when I say that you need to respect people here.


]God is Existence. It is not a simple question in as much as it is not easy for us to accept that there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own.


Then how do you know he exists if you can't comprehend him?

Remember there are two and more things here: the concept of God, and the essence of God, then the essence of the concept of God, of course. The concept of God is less than God, the essence of the concept is obviously more than the concept, and the essence of God is more than everything. I am not able to comprehend atoms, gravity, the movement of stars, calculus, many of these things, and many of them I cannot see with my eyes, either. Each of these is as vast an idea as the other. In the question of each of them there is their concept, their essence, related concepts, in fact the question always becomes very complicated. Yet all of them I accept as fact.

there is a greater realm of conciousness than our own.

"God as existence." "God as the source." Your severe, and of course entitled, opinion of these comments is that they are an over-simplification. Two things-- God has been written about-- that is, the concept or essence has been studied, expanded, translated into metaphysics by thousands or millions of geniuses, artists, monks or saints, and other intelligent individuals. It might be a shock to you to realize the intelligence of the people you converse with daily. In answer to your criticism, consider that of an infinite number of individuals, the one with the highest attributes of all that are good; intelligence, morality, joyfulness, strength, peace, love, fame, best understanding of god; the individual best in all of these categories, would still have an entirely human view of god. This is not because of how well we are able to comprehend the infinite, but exactly how well the infinite is able to be comprehended by any ability.

Moving on.


His purpse...well honestly that is beyond our ability to understand I think.


To believe his is intellectual suicide. And irrational.

It took me a minute to realize by "To believe his is intellectual suicide." You meant "To believe this is intellectual suicide."

Morten, you negate the intellect, ideas, experience, opinions, of billions of people. I can't speak for them, in that you didn't speak against them; that is, you didn't say they are irrational for their belief, only that they committed intellectual suicide on one point in their thinking. So you didn't say anything about their consciousnesses, but I cannot leave them out of this. All I can say is that the belief in God is not an irrational one for me. I'm aware of my consciousness, that is, of my body too, and in my mind, when I read or learn something, I can feel that I've learned it, the same when I do many different activities; and when I practice transcendental meditation, that's when I become of the most amazing thing in my mind; Krishna consciousness.

Now, all this wasn't said to be a proof-- I'll get to that in a short moment. Now I understand that if you have a strong enough aversion to God, even hearing his name or contemplating him could give you a negative physical response. This is what makes the area so touchy. No need for stress for anyone. Anyway, the question which arises most skepticism in your questioning I will answer; the question of God as existence. We've spoken of him as infinite and as the source of existence. I think of him this way instead of as him as a personal creator, although the Hindu religion says that God's two armed personal form comes before his four-armed, or universal form. That is, it is a more natural form. Anyway, God as the "Source," I can assure is an airtight axiom, or conclusion, actually, it doesn't matter which you think of it as. Anyway, I can assure you this idea is airtight.

Just on a side note, I was a devout atheist most of my life. I say this because I studied these question in many different perspectives, from many different angles, and in many different compositions. No I am not giving you the proof for the possibility or reality of god being the source, I am merely giving you my opinion. You might be surprised to learn a recommendation from me, the God Delusion. It might help you refine your beliefs. It really doesn't matter what you read, because I could never convince you by argument. You ought to read Pascal, Plato, Descartes, but also, anything that strikes your attention. Keep reading, not because there's something you don't know that's written, even, necessarily, but perhaps looking for new things that people have written.


WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness.


Prove it.

Prove to me that gravity exists. You can't, sir. There's an endless regression of concepts, and you cannot prove them all, because you cannot prove to me that I exist or you exist, none-the-less what I am. You may think this is one of the least true things you've ever heard, but I can guarantee you at least one other person reading it thinks the opposite. Are you unaware of that opinion, or is a person who thinks it's true be unaware of the possibility of it not being true?


It is no more nonsensical to say the following, than it is to say what you have said above:

The giant purple bunny's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the smaller, less purple bunnies will cry out. The universie itself glorifies the giant purple bunny by its existence. The giant purple bunny shows its power, wisdom, and love in its creation, and creation glorifies it.

Problem is, how do you support any of these ridiculous claims? You're basically just talking from your rear-end. Please answer me this: How does the universe glorify god my its mere existence? How does god show his power, wisdom and love in his creation?

Well, I've been writing a lot ( and I have the sneaking suspicion none of it meant anything to you ) so I will take a break and just say briefly that God is a universal idea. In that there's an infinite number of people ( not necessarily human ) and of them all, they are all still material. They are all still less than God.


Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die. I cannot believe that existence lasts the 80 or 90 years we have our feet planted into this earth. Existence is eternal, like God and all spiritual things. Our minds cannot comrehend eternal, although we understand what it means we do not truly see it's comlexity.


This is explains why you are religious. You can't accept the harsh biological realities of existence so you turn to a vague and illusory conception of "God". What about other living organisms? Flies? Birds? Wombats? Do they also go to heaven, or is there idea of eternal life not good enough for them?

No. The concept of God as a higher reality is an advanced concept, not an inferior one. Once again, there is the concept of God as reality, the essence of God as reality, and the concept that there is no higher reality. What Captain is saying is that in the essential reality, our lives disappear into finiteness. He explained it in a couple sentences, but you ignored those to focus on the sentence where he said he believed there was more to our lives than the time we are spent respirating and beating our hearts. In fact we know this; we don't know when a person dies; but it is not when their head is cut off.

"You can't accept the harsh biological realities of existence so you turn to a vague and illusory conception of "God"."

This is illogical to say, Morten. The acceptance the individual Captainqt has of the harsh biological realities of life has nothing to do with his philosophical belief in the illusory existence of God.

And, dogs go to Dog Heaven.

Oh, okay, I guess I got through that.

[Morten]

I will address all of your points, straight forwardly, but you will address everyone with more respect. Who here has said to you " you are talking out of your butt "? I am speaking for more than myself when I say that you need to respect people here.
I'll start off by ignoring the condescending tone you've used towards me in all of your post, and you in turn can "turn a cheek" to what you feel is disrespectful about my tone. I'm not a politician and am not here to be your buddy.



I am not able to comprehend atoms, gravity, the movement of stars, calculus, many of these things, and many of them I cannot see with my eyes, either. Each of these is as vast an idea as the other. In the question of each of them there is their concept, their essence, related concepts, in fact the question always becomes very complicated. Yet all of them I accept as fact.
Because they can be scientifically proven.


Anyway, God as the "Source," I can assure is an airtight axiom, or conclusion, actually, it doesn't matter which you think of it as. Anyway, I can assure you this idea is airtight.
There is nothing "air right" about God's existence.


Prove to me that gravity exists.
Pick up any object nearest to you and drop it on the floor. Voila.


you cannot prove to me that I exist or you exist, none-the-less what I am.
Cogito ergo sum. The undeniable proof that "you" exist in some form. In any case, thinking that nothing is real and none of us really exist leads nowhere.

You make a good number of assumptions about my person. Far from being a radical atheist, I have often wanted to be believe very dearly because many thinkers or writers I admire do so too (Kierkegaard, Flannery O'Connor) but the fact remains - and this is what you cannot escape, despite all your talk of concepts and essences and essences of concepts - there is no verifiable proof of any higher being.

You cannot equate the proof of gravity or calculus with the proof of god simply because you as an individual do not understand it. Gravity can be and has been proven scientifically. Calculus is a mathematical concept, not a physical force, and as such it does not "exist".

[Morten]

I will address all of your points, straight forwardly, but you will address everyone with more respect. Who here has said to you " you are talking out of your butt "? I am speaking for more than myself when I say that you need to respect people here.
I'll start off by ignoring the condescending tone you've used towards me in all of your post, and you in turn can "turn a cheek" to what you feel is disrespectful about my tone. I'm not a politician and am not here to be your buddy.



I am not able to comprehend atoms, gravity, the movement of stars, calculus, many of these things, and many of them I cannot see with my eyes, either. Each of these is as vast an idea as the other. In the question of each of them there is their concept, their essence, related concepts, in fact the question always becomes very complicated. Yet all of them I accept as fact.
Because they can be scientifically proven.


Anyway, God as the "Source," I can assure is an airtight axiom, or conclusion, actually, it doesn't matter which you think of it as. Anyway, I can assure you this idea is airtight.
There is nothing "air right" about God's existence.


Prove to me that gravity exists.
Pick up any object nearest to you and drop it on the floor. Voila.


you cannot prove to me that I exist or you exist, none-the-less what I am.
Cogito ergo sum. The undeniable proof that "you" exist in some form. In any case, thinking that nothing is real and none of us really exist leads nowhere.

You make a good number of assumptions about my person. Far from being a radical atheist, I have often wanted to be believe very dearly because many thinkers or writers I admire do so too (Kierkegaard, Flannery O'Connor) but the fact remains - and this is what you cannot escape, despite all your talk of concepts and essences and essences of concepts - there is no verifiable proof of any higher being.

You cannot equate the proof of gravity or calculus with the proof of god simply because you as an individual do not understand it. Gravity can be and has been proven scientifically. Calculus is a mathematical concept, not a physical force, and as such it does not "exist".

I'm not out eradicate the world of religion. I am deeply distrustful of organized religion, and I personally am unable to have any faith in a higher being/s because it would be a philosophical and intellectual suicide on my part.

[Morten]

Sorry, posted it twice.

[dzebra]

1. Scientists have observed things falling (being attracted to each other) and created formulas that can predict the outcome of how two objects will be pulled to each other. The fact that they can calculate it does not mean that they know how gravity works, just that it does work. Gravity is believed to exist because of the effects of gravity in the universe.

2. About the purple bunnies, I think it's much more rational to believe in God than in purple bunnies. There are no historical documents that are reliable in measurable ways that put forth explanations about purple bunnies doing the things your statement claims they do. Purple bunnies haven't been influencing people for ages. And I'm assuming that you don't have a personal testimony that purple bunnies are an active part of your life. Purple bunnies didn't have a son that came to earth to teach people about the purple bunnies. Purple bunnies haven't left a trail of influence through history.

3. The universe glorifies God by its existence because it shows God's power. The creator of the universe would obviously need to have some serious abilities in order to make the universe. The way things work together, like chemicals and physics, to create amazing causes and effects everywhere we look is a testimony to the awesomeness of God.

[Morten]

I can observe gravity working. I can't observe "god" working.

There is nothing in what you have said about the universe and god that can be supported by scientific evidence.

[mtpspur]

Morten--the belief in God and Christianity has to be taken on faith. I have no 'proofs' that you desire to offer you. The Bible and God is a faith based system if you will.

You may scoff all you like and demur at the lack of scientific evidence but it will not change the truth of wom I believe in.

By the way--the forums here are generally shared with at least the veneer of courtesy--which you seem to be lacking. Perhaps you have had a bad week. Or year. But dzebra did NOT merit the butt remark and I would like to think it beneath you but I have doubts. Cheer up we'll never be friends. You've lost nothing you would have valued.

[SirRaustusBear]

The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven so argument in that vein is not going to reach any definite conclusion. You may convince others to believe in your side but that doesn't prove either argument is true.

So to get back to the original question about God's purpose, I am an atheist and so will answer the question from my viewpoint. I believe man created the idea of God for two reasons. The first was to answer questions that we were not scientifically advanced enough to answer logically. For instance, why does it not rain some years and rain too much other years? Since early man did not have the meteorological know-how to answer that question, he chalked it up to a capricious diety.

A problem is that we then grow comfortable with our supernatural explanations and when Galileo comes along with a scientific answer people are unwilling to listen because it would require that they relinquish their belief in this now unnecessary facet of their religion.

The rain example also displays the second reason for the creation of God. The farmer whose crops are dependant on rain is now able to feel that he is making an effort to help his crops through prayer. The need to feel we are helping ourselves is very strong, and we see today whenever an athlete is injured his entire team goes down on a knee and prays while he lays on the field. Athletic injuries do not decrease in seriousness based on how many people pray or how fervently they do so, it simply makes those praying feel better.

Sorry for the long post but to sum up, God's purpose is to make people feel better about their impotence when dealing with forces beyond our control. Captainq you affirm this idea when you say that you cannot believe that existence is futile. What you mean is you choose not to because believing so would make you unhappy.

[Redzeppelin]

The entire premise for the initiating question of this thread is wrong to begin with. To ask such a question is to place God on par with created things - of which He is not.

God does not exist for a "purpose" - the question implies that God has some functional use - that His existence is contingent upon some need or use. Wrong. God exists simply because He IS. You cannot drop God into the box of created things and ask "What is this thing for?" The real question is why He created anything else at all - since His existence is self-sufficient: He needs nothing else.

[Logos]

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[Captainqt]

The idea of GOd is universal, at least among humans...maybe not plants and animals. Don't know about that one. Billy Graham (I am sure that we all know him), was asked by the Russian government some years back to debate Christianity with a professor of archaeolgy in Russia. The debate began and ended with one question from Billy Graham to the professor, "In your research has there ever been a civilization which has not search for a God or Gods to worship?" The response was no, and Billy Graham debated no longer. It just goes to show that the idea of religion is nothing new. Certainly it has been around longer than the idea of no religion, more commonly refferred to as atheism. This is the belief in nothing spiritual. It is about as anti-human as it gets. The majority of standardized religous beliefs, not fanatical religous beliefs, are very human and humane in nature. I mean come on, how is Love your enemy a dishonest or non-worthwhile concept to live by. It is obviously a Divine philosophy. I suggest the reading of C.S. Lewis, who spent most of his educated life as an atheist in deep study with very intellectual men. He has written great theolgical books that explain the difficult ideas that people cannot seem to apply to their lives. I now see from where I stand in life that it is so much...soooooo much harder to believe in nothing greater than myself than to believe in a gracious, loving and all-powerful God. I wish that you guys wouldn't be so moody about this stuff. It's all in fun, but it is very important stuff and I agree that it requires serious attention but even greater respect. I thank you all for talking about what I wrote. I very much enjoy the dialogue.

[SirRaustusBear]

Captain the same can be said of war: nearly all civilizations practise it. Still I would not use that to suggest war is good or that we should all have faith in the justice of war.

[Captainqt]

Just because war is practiced all over the world doesn't make it good. It is the fact that it is practiced and not necessarily the use and whether it is right or wrong. War is only wrong to the losing side...hahaha...not so. War is tragic, but it is a necessary evil I suppose. It just shows even more of what people are willing to live and die for. Would a generation of men fight their whole lives for an unjust cause? What is the means for which they fight and why waste the time. It must be good, but it is tragic. Look at the crusades. Millions were practically slaughtered in the name of Christ, and it is not good, but it was done. Most wars are fought over religon...interesting. Or the love of a god or Gods, ie. money or image. The things that make this world so tragic and undesirable, therefore the things that make the after-life more desirable and seekable by humans, are those created by the human's race to make themselves God. Read the Grand Inquisitor by Fyodor Dostoyevsky. Biggotry and hate cause war, seemingly for a good cause, but it is for that cause that we step on our own foot and then put that sore foot into our mouth. It makes no sense because we are not all powerful. My point was not that since reigion is practiced all over the world that it is the only way to go. The fact is that it is above all of the other things which we practice. It is a natural human incliniation. It takes no effort to move in the spiritual way. That is what we were designed for.

[SirRaustusBear]

I would argue that the worldwide commonality of religion is not evidence of man's inherent knowledge of God's existence or even of a natural inclination towards worship, but rather as I stated a few posts ago a natural want to explain what we see around us as and to have control over our lives. Religion grants both.

I have read Karamazov and liked it (preferred crime and punishment though) but Ivan's argument in the inquisitor chapter is really against organized religion if I remember correctly (it's been a few years since I read it). This would only argue against religion itself if we assume a propensity for religion to become organized, which is an interesting question.

[aeroport]

For what purpose does God exist then, in today's religions? There are of course a million sociological/athropological, political or even (since all have been trying to use) scientific reasons. But let's for the sake of argument say that God does exist, then what's the purpose of existence? All religions endeavours to put purpose into our life, so what's God's?


To inspire religious debates that bring out the worst in everyone.
I think we can all agree that there is a lesson to be drawn from that. ;)

[Morten]

Morten--the belief in God and Christianity has to be taken on faith. I have no 'proofs' that you desire to offer you. The Bible and God is a faith based system if you will.

You may scoff all you like and demur at the lack of scientific evidence but it will not change the truth of wom I believe in.

By the way--the forums here are generally shared with at least the veneer of courtesy--which you seem to be lacking. Perhaps you have had a bad week. Or year. But dzebra did NOT merit the butt remark and I would like to think it beneath you but I have doubts. Cheer up we'll never be friends. You've lost nothing you would have valued.

Terrific.

[Morten]

Many of you have pulled the "God cannot and should not be proven" card. However, is it wrong to ask for a little basis of support when religion makes such drastic claims about the world and our existence?

[dzebra]

Nope, but even if support is shown to someone, it's easy enough for him to ignore it and not alter his views at all. I could tell (and have told) you things that make God very real to me, and if you choose not to see things the way I do, you would not be convinced whatsoever by my words. That's where faith comes in to the picture. Without faith, someone will not believe no matter what is put in front of him, and with faith, someone will believe no matter what is put in front of him. One will see things as evidence pointing to God, and the other will see things as evidence denying God.

[mtpspur]

To Morten: No your request for proofs is not in itself unreasonable. In the Bible God often showed 'proofs'. Make the wool wet and dry; the trial of fire for Elijah, and the proof od the ressurected Christ to Thomas.

What God objects to, in my opinion, is the manner in which unbelievers request proof. It often comes across as a demand--show me or get lost type attitude. An attempt to contrict the workings of God. By faiht if one believes God reveals Himself in any number of ways but He is not in the habot of satisfying idle curiousity. In His grace he treats us children but a ftaher ought not to be doubted or constantly argued with or where's the relationship. Hope this helps somewhat. basically a Christaincannot show what an unbeliever would 'accept' as proof positive. We can only show him our life with all its ups and downs and graces. With renewed respect at your last posting. Rich. Perhaps we can be friends?? Perhaps??

[Splendour]

To inspire religious debates that bring out the worst in everyone.
I think we can all agree that there is a lesson to be drawn from that. ;)

hahaa...out of all replies I like this one the most.

[blazeofglory]

[QUOTE=Splendour;536570]So this particular question came to my mind, after watching a OVA of Saint Seiya (a popular Japanese anime in Asia and Europe, not in North America though), when the featured goddess Athena (more of a stereotypical Protector of Earth idea, not to be confused with the real Athena in Greek myth, though she is modeled after) asked this question to the Gods of Olympus who were prosecuting her Knights for fighting against the divines: "why do Gods exist? They exist for the humans. Therefore, Gods can also be said as the servants of Men."

For what purpose does God exist then, in today's religions? There are of course a million sociological/athropological, political or even (since all have been trying to use) scientific reasons. But let's for the sake of argument say that God does exist, then what's the purpose of existence? All religions endeavours to put purpose into our life, so what's God's?

And if God just..exists. Can't we come back and say, similariy, humans can just exist...without a purpose and therefore God doesn't exist?

This is indeed a very funny question. God is said more often purposeless or above all purposes.

[Equality72521]

Okay, in answer to the origional post, whether God is here to serve us or us to serve him. Well, we've seen both extremes, God serves us. We serve God. Well think about it this way. (I'm not a beliver in God but I'm working on a theory)

God "supposedly" created man.

Why would he create man? Boredom? Perhaps. But think about it. But if he created us, what was his true purpose? Not us to serve him. No. I'm pretty sure that God is a grown man and can serve himself. Unfortunately, this is where the brutal and honest truth comes to mind: since God has not revealed himself we cannot know his true purpose. So. It is hard for me to think that God created anything. Why would he create this world? What makes us so special? Why do we deserve his attention?

This is also again where the opposite side of the argument comes up and presents it's case. God didn't create us. We created him. We created him for a sense of hope perhaps. When all else fails and you can't trust the humans you are with, who else to look to but a divine and all perfect being? Someone you think can help you in your time of need, he gives you faith, hope, and in your mind help.

It's all for purpose of healing. Where there's a will, there's a way. Generally, the faith has to be inside yourself, not a God. You, and you alone, control your actions and faiths. God doesn't control that, obviously, else, I wouldn't be writing this and nor would others be saying anything against God. (Another reason as to why it's hard to believe we exist to serve him, if we did, why would he give us free will?)

"God is Existence. WIthout God, there is no significance in life, there is only darkness. Perhaps you can be successful, but then you die. Perhaps you can be happy, but then you die." -Captainqt

That seems to be a bit of a contradiction there. There is no meaning to life with out God. There is no light. But then you say, you can be successful and happy but die. There is nothing but everything with out God? There is a light and you can be happy and you can live a good life. We don't know if eternally we will go on or even if there's anything for us to go onto. Faith can take you there maybe, but I doubt that with out your God our life is not significant or full of darkness. I'm sorry, but I'm fine with out him and feel that there is plenty of significance. I guess it just boils down to what You think is significant and what I think is significant.


"God's purpose is to be glorified. If people will not do it, the rocks will cry out. The universe itself glorifies God by its existence. God shows his power, wisdom, and love in his creation, and creation glorifies him." -Dzebra

Okay, so if creaction glorifies god and he created all then my contradiction and disbelief of God, glorifies him??? Hmmm....

"God does not exist for a "purpose" - the question implies that God has some functional use - that His existence is contingent upon some need or use. Wrong. God exists simply because He IS. You cannot drop God into the box of created things and ask "What is this thing for?" The real question is why He created anything else at all - since His existence is self-sufficient: He needs nothing else." -Redzepplin

The question is what does God exist for? Does he exist for us? I'm assuming he does, or well for those who believe. God had been dropped into the "box of created things" long ago, and apparently nobody can find the key. But if he did create us your question as to why he choose us, I completely concur with.

"Captain the same can be said of war: nearly all civilizations practise it. Still I would not use that to suggest war is good or that we should all have faith in the justice of war." -SirRaususBear

I agree with the argument that you're using here. (Just thought I'd throw that in there... :) )

"However, is it wrong to ask for a little basis of support when religion makes such drastic claims about the world and our existence?" -Morten

No, it's not wrong, it's in human nature. Curiosity is a good thing and has found us many answers to many questions it also gave us light, machines...etc. The world and our existance is probably one of the questions most asked but as we have no answer nobody knows so we all argue on forums and attempt to find the truth! ;)

"Nope, but even if support is shown to someone, it's easy enough for him to ignore it and not alter his views at all. I could tell (and have told) you things that make God very real to me, and if you choose not to see things the way I do, you would not be convinced whatsoever by my words. That's where faith comes in to the picture. Without faith, someone will not believe no matter what is put in front of him, and with faith, someone will believe no matter what is put in front of him. One will see things as evidence pointing to God, and the other will see things as evidence denying God." -Dzebra

I think this comes back down to the whole idea of "if you will it, it will be." I respect you but from my point of view I tend to think that if you want things to divinely be there to help you, they will be. I think that everything is inside of yourself.

However, To each his own.





{By this post, I hope I offended no one. I posted it out of my views and their replies and possibly things that could be put into consideration. If I have offended you in any way, please let me know and I will go back to modify my post and make it less....mean. :D}

[blazeofglory]

God, the way carve out of our imaginations exists for delimiting or structuring man into miniature. To outshine him.