Of male and female characters

[Taliesin]

The thing is, I have seen that male writers have done quite well when picturing male characters, as have female writers with female characters.

But now the thing is the opposite sex. There are not many writers who can acccurately picture the oppossite sex's character's mind.

So, the question is:

Female forumers, which male writer do you think has most accurately described the mind of a woman; the same question to male forumers: which female author has most accurately described the mind of a male character's inner world?


And, oh yes, sorry for my terrible english.

[amuse]

i'd forgotten how well james baldwin did this, until my intellectual heritage teacher mentioned him. can't think of anyone else right offhand though...

sidenote: my bf's mom went to this book signing and the authoress told of how her hubby got great laughs at her multiple attempts to write a love scene from a man's perspective. :D

[bjortan]

It's especially hilarious when male writers write female characters who fall hopelessly in love with a character who looks suspiciously like the face on the book jacket...

[mono]

Firstly, being a male, to me both Virginia Woolf and Emily Bronte tend to describe well the makings of an increasingly masculine mind. Wuthering Heights best distinguished the various types of male minds, not to deviate the male from the female mind too much.

[nothingman87]

To me, Willa Cather perfectly describes the desires of a man both young and old in her characterization of Jim Burden, in her work My Antonia.

[Jester]

I thought Charles Frazier did a good job portraying Adah and Ruby in Cold Mountain...

[crisaor]

So, the question is to male forumers: which female author has most accurately described the mind of a male character's inner world?
Your question has brought my attention to a weird fact: I cannot recall owning a book by a female author. Strange. Also, I can't recall which book written by a female author was the last one I read. It goes without saying that I don't care about an author's gender, but this is too curious. Problably it was something by Agatha Christie, but I'm having trouble remembering another one. I'll check.

[subterranean]

I don't know, from all the books that I read so far, the best description in female characters are given by female authors, like the Awakening or Jane Eyre. Same thing with male characters, like the one i'm reading now (Jude the Obscure).. But Dostoevsky also gave good descriptions for the female characters in the Poor People.
So I dont really know which female/male author give the best description of male/female charaterisation

[subterranean]

how about Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert. This book gives a good description of woman with her sensibility and sufferings. Sad ending though..:(

[EAP]

On the flip side lie people like Robert Jordan and even Charles Dickens who can't portray a female character without submitting to the most blatant cliches.

Personally I always liked Harper Lee's portrayel of Atticus and his son.

[mono]

Odd how this thread came to my mind earlier today, and, from my previous entry, I realized I forgot to mention Harper Lee's portrayal of males in To Kill A Mockingbird, and especially the development with age of character.

[Isagel]

I thin that the porttraits of the women in The hours by Michael Cunningham are some of the most complex ones I have read. For me, the theme about the conflicts between the needs and demands from others and the characters own wishes and needs are written in a gender role perspective, without preaching, whitout simplifying.

Another writer who actually made me think "How can he know this? How can a man know this " is actually Stephen King. In a book called Geralds game he describes, among other things , a bad relationship between a man and a woman in a almost disturbingly accurate detail . I have never read a relationship described like this before. In the book you can follow her growing awarness of her own strength, and why she has not been aware before. ( It is a horror story as well, of course. Well, mostly a horror story)

I have had a soft spot for Stephen King has been after the first page in the book Rose Madder. He starts with qouting Sigmund Freud , when Freud says that he has never found out what women really want. King answers the question by quoting Aretha Franklin:

" R-E-S-P-E-C-T
find out what that means to me"

[Shore Dude]

Odd how this thread came to my mind earlier today, and, from my previous entry, I realized I forgot to mention Harper Lee's portrayal of males in To Kill A Mockingbird, and especially the development with age of character.
Haper Lee is just a master of characterization in general. Scout is one of my favorite and most lovable characters.

With regards to encompassing the oposite sex, I think Judith Guest does a masterful job of narrating/ characterizing the father, the son and the father-son relationship in Ordinary People.

[crisaor]

Oops, I forgot about Mary Shelley. Rectified.

[SleepyWitch]

Ruth in John Irving's A Widow for one Year is really good :nod: ... but he's got a very weird way of characterizing people... :)

a friend of mine keeps telling me that she can identify Thomas Hardy's women characters...

[baddad]

In my first manuscript I created a protagonist named Taryn. She was one of three main characters in the novel, both of the others being men. The men were terribly easy to create (being one helps) but the female was sheer torture. I've been married a few times, am basically addicted to women so you think I would know a woman's mind and/or heart quite intimately. But I was never completely satisfied with the results I obtained with Taryn. Sooooo.......I am now in my third year of 'Women's Studies' as one of my minors at University. I figure it will really help current and future female characters, and maybe I'll learn something.............but I'm a man, so maybe I won't learn anything..... ( :

[lhaeber]

You are my hero. I would love to take the courses (womens studies) but was afraid of being perceived as this uber feminist (i live with men, my family is mostly men, my co-workers are men, my dogs are men, well, male). I wonder, are there men's studies as well?

[baddad]

You are my hero. I would love to take the courses (womens studies) but was afraid of being perceived as this uber feminist (i live with men, my family is mostly men, my co-workers are men, my dogs are men, well, male). I wonder, are there men's studies as well?


Men's Studies? Well sure, no problem, just take a look at the patriarchial world in which we live. Take a look at how the elite, the governments, the social institutuions, education systems, medical research, scientific exploration, religious doctorines, politics, sports etc., are run. Make absolutely no mistake!! This is truly a man's world. No University faculty could cover this subject as well as a glance out the window can accomplish.

Funny thing though. I thought my courses in Women's Studies would be a piece of cake, an easy bunch of credits to burn off while learning something pertinent to my writing. Guess what? These 3 years of WS's have been the most intense, most challenging, and most frustrating courses I've studied. Feminism has so many schisms within itself that a P.h.d. is needed in order to grasp its many intricacies................... not to mention the BRUTAL reading regimen with its convuluted rational and complicated implications......

One of my professors graduated (Phd) Cambridge, and taught at Harvard University for 4 years. She is a genius in this area, as are most of my professors. As a man studying women, I find myself trying my best not to look like a complete idiot..............not always an easy task, even on a good day......

[Zooey]

Firstly, being a male, to me both Virginia Woolf and Emily Bronte tend to describe well the makings of an increasingly masculine mind. Wuthering Heights best distinguished the various types of male minds, not to deviate the male from the female mind too much. I can't comment regarding Brontë, but do you think that Woolf's ability to capture the mind of the male may have something to do with her bisexuality, or at the very least, her belief that at the most basic levels there is very little difference between males and females, and treating her characters as such?

This is actually a question I've mulled over in the past, and when it comes down to it, I don't know if it's possible for one sex to accurately portray the other. Don't get me wrong, there are masterful imitations coming from both sides, but is it truly possible for a male to capture the mind of a female, and vice versa? I'm not sure.

That said, I tend to lean towards Woolf's idea of sex and gender, so perhaps it is possible for one sex to portray the other because there's very little difference when it comes to the essence of what it is to be human.

Some good examples of the top of my head:
ORLANDO by Virginia Woolf
THE TALENTED MR. RIPLEY by Patricia Highsmith
The "Franny" section of FRANNY AND ZOOEY by J.D. Salinger
THE MANDARINS by Simone de Beauvoir (though her depiction of the female characters are clearly superior)

I guess not that many, really, when it comes down to it.

I have been told Henry James did a good job of capturing the minds of his female protagonists, but I cannot verify this myself. I really should change that in the near future.

[mono]

do you think that Woolf's ability to capture the mind of the male may have something to do with her bisexuality, or at the very least, her belief that at the most basic levels there is very little difference between males and females, and treating her characters as such?
This fact would not surprise me in the least, and seems much like what I questioned myself. Not only in Orlando, as you mentioned, but in her essay A Room Of One's Own, I feel that Woolf expresses quite accurately the views, differences and similarities, of males and females.
As for her regard to bisexuality, this may seem a generally vague response, but I can imagine there must subsist some ability for men or women who find either gender attractive (or polyamorous) to have increasingly better realizations of both genders, in ideas, desires, rhetoric, and behavior.

I have been told Henry James did a good job of capturing the minds of his female protagonists, but I cannot verify this myself. I really should change that in the near future.
I have never noticed this fact of Henry James' work, but I can certainly see its truth, especially in The Turn of the Screw and The Aspern Papers, but this may only apply to men and women of his era - the late 1800s and early 1900s.

[subterranean]

yea, I don't see the "big" interest in a so called "men's studies?"..Since well, that's how the world is run from long time ago till now. Though I understand that sometimes women use their "female characteristics" to advantage themselves, yet on the other hand they also asked for equality. Don't get me wrong I my self is a female and admit that sometimes I did that.

This one episode of The Aprentice showed how the gals participants use their sexuality to sell more, and indeed they sold a whole lot more than the guys.


Men's Studies? Well sure, no problem, just take a look at the patriarchial world in which we live. Take a look at how the elite, the governments, the social institutuions, education systems, medical research, scientific exploration, religious doctorines, politics, sports etc., are run. Make absolutely no mistake!! This is truly a man's world. No University faculty could cover this subject as well as a glance out the window can accomplish.

Funny thing though. I thought my courses in Women's Studies would be a piece of cake, an easy bunch of credits to burn off while learning something pertinent to my writing. Guess what? These 3 years of WS's have been the most intense, most challenging, and most frustrating courses I've studied. Feminism has so many schisms within itself that a P.h.d. is needed in order to grasp its many intricacies................... not to mention the BRUTAL reading regimen with its convuluted rational and complicated implications......

One of my professors graduated (Phd) Cambridge, and taught at Harvard University for 4 years. She is a genius in this area, as are most of my professors. As a man studying women, I find myself trying my best not to look like a complete idiot..............not always an easy task, even on a good day......

[SleepyWitch]

good point, Subterannean but: just because men have been running the world doesn't mean we know all that much about them. plus if you wanna explore concepts of femininity you also need to look at masculinity, coz they go hand in hand. as in: the roles men ascribe to women influence their own behaviour and the standards they set for themselves/eachother. e.g. when men claim that women are weak and helpless thus follows that it's the d u t y of the man to protect women, which puts a lot of pressure on him. so if we examined how the concepts of femininity and masculinity are responsible for men's weird behaviour ;) (could give you lots of examples from my own xp w/ guyfriends/bfs, dad, boss etc), feminism could actualle help men as much as women. i s'pose it's part of gender studies and stuff.
do you think those girls on The Apprentice would have behaved like that if they had known it wouldn't be a successful tactic? i.e. if men didn't e x p e ct women to act like this or respond to it, they wouldn't need to. i mean, lots of men don't take a women who dresses e.g. in jeans and a dinner jacket seriously coz they think she must be some disgruntled old lesbian. but if women hop around half naked, men will find them interesting.
yeah, that's my two penny worth of gender studies...

[IWilKikU]

I think really that men are alot less complex than women. I mean seriously, who really understands women? Even among women? How is it that you are always right (and if your not you can at least make men think you are), always win, always superior, and yet squable amongst yourselves over petty stupid stuff? If women mobilized and unionized and organized without getting jelous of each other's hand-bags, you could rule the world easily. And think of how great it would be! No more wars, and everything would match.

[Scheherazade]

IWillKikU, as a married man, you should know better than posting such messages ;)

[IWilKikU]

Yes, but my wife never comes to this forum. ;)

[Scheherazade]

*gives Mrs IWIllKikU a phone call and invites her to join the Forum ASAP*

:angel:

[subterranean]

I think Kik just expressing what he feels as a married man :D...And Kik, IMHO, I think women would rule the world sometime soon...We're bigger in number than you guys and lots of us are smarter and stronger mentally.

[IWilKikU]

I completely agree. My wife dwarfs me in common sense and logic, but she gets into bitter rivalries with her close friends about the cheezyist moron things, like she was going to buy this pair of shoes and her friend bought them first. That caused no end of *****ing and moaning in my house and evidently her friend's too. Silly women.

[Koa]

We already rule the world...men spend their time wondering what the hell we want, so we rule their minds at least... :D

Jokes aside, I had never thought that subjects like 'women studies' could exist...

As for the topic, the only one coming to my mind now is Tolstoy. I was absolutely amazed about how he described Anna Karenina's feelings towards the end of the book...it was impressingly feminine. Curiously, I can't really stand any of the characters from War&Peace instead, especially the female ones.

[Monica]

I think Chaucer's "Wife of Bath's Tale" is the a good representation of women. "What thing is it that women most desiren?" :)

[Scheherazade]

I like the female characters in Vanity Fair by Thackeray... Both Becky Sharp and Amelia Sedley are memorable characters, I think.

[irock_poems]

Yes yes James Baldwin does okay.

[_JadeRain_]

Mary Shelly does an excellent job depicting Victor in _Frankenstein_.

Nathaniel Hawthorne also masters the female essence with Hester Prynne in _The Scarlet Letter_.

[PeterL]

It's especially hilarious when male writers write female characters who fall hopelessly in love with a character who looks suspiciously like the face on the book jacket...

Amen

All characters are part of the author, but that is excessive. I hope that I manage to avoid doing that.

[Pensive]

In case of Madam Defarge from A Tale Of Two Cities, I think that Charles Dickens pictured her very well. I can't think of more right now.

[ThousandthIsle]

I couldn't stop marvelling at Arthur Golden's 1st-person portrayal of a woman in Memoirs of a Geisha. There were a lot of subtle things he picked up on that surprised me. All humans are capable of putting themselves in another's place and seeing the world through a different set of eyes, but I felt that he immersed himself into a woman's mind (especially for that time period and location, when women's lives were much much different than men's). Sayuri was one of the best developed female characters I have ever read, even among women authors!

You'll have to excuse me and I'll return when I remember it... I recently came across the opposite situation - a very well-written male character by a woman. Give me some time to remember! ;)

[manolia]

I like the female characters in Vanity Fair by Thackeray... Both Becky Sharp and Amelia Sedley are memorable characters, I think.

I agree with this ;) I am reading "Vanity fair" currently and liking it very much. Thackeray did a very good jod describing two different types of women..very lifelike characters ;)

[Pensive]

Also, in Midnight's Children, Rushdie seems to have pictured the female characters very well.

Lawrence's female characters also seem to fit quite a lot. But then again both these authors, Rushdie and Lawrence, are good with their male characters too.

Charles Dickens' Madam Defarge, as I already mentioned, looks quite realistic but some of his other female characters like Lucy Manette just annoy me a great deal. They seem quite unrealistic to me for some reason...


I like the female characters in Vanity Fair by Thackeray... Both Becky Sharp and Amelia Sedley are memorable characters, I think.

Yes, I second that too.

[Janine]

Pensive, of course I too was thinking of Lawrence; he seems to get right into a woman's mind and see her so clearly. He certainly delved far below the surface of Ursula and Gudrun's mind, but then again he was deep into the thoughts of Gerald and Birkin, too. Lawrence is very well known though, for his intuitive talent in delving below the female mind - look at "Lady Chatterly's Lover". Most of his books do center around the woman characters especially, probably a result of his close relationship to his mother.

And Madame DeFarge is a good example. I thought that "A Tale of Two Cities" was one of the best I ever read. I loved the characterizations. Isn't Dickens noted for that? DeFarge did especially stand out in that novel.

Sher, I have not read Thackery yet, but I do own a copy of "Vanity Fair"; Manolia....glad to see you reading it and recommending it as well. I will have to read that one soon. I have heard good things about the book before.

Jade Rain - Amen...I agree! Victor's mind is really detailed and complex and Mary Shelley does a fantastic job on his characterization - to think she was so young when she wrote such depth. I have read the book three times - it is one of my favorites and never ceases to fascinate me; I think that is because of the extent to which Shelley reveals what is going on below the surface - within Victor's thoughts. It is an amazing book!
Thanks for the input everybody!

[Scheherazade]

Female forumers, which male writer do you think has most accurately described the mind of a woman; the same question to male forumers: which female author has most accurately described the mind of a male character's inner world?
I like the female characters in Vanity Fair by Thackeray... Both Becky Sharp and Amelia Sedley are memorable characters, I think.
I agree with this ;) I am reading "Vanity fair" currently and liking it very much. Thackeray did a very good jod describing two different types of women..very lifelike characters ;)
Sher, I have not read Thackery yet, but I do own a copy of "Vanity Fair"; Manolia....glad to see you reading it and recommending it as well. I will have to read that one soon. I have heard good things about the book before.I just want to clear something up... The OP was asking good examples of female characters created by male authors (and vice versa), which is why I mentioned Thackeray. Otherwise, I am not a huge fan of Vanity Fair. However, if you are fond of 19th century literature, you are sure to enjoy this book :)

[PeterL]

We already rule the world...men spend their time wondering what the hell we want, so we rule their minds at least... :D



That is true. Women have always ruled the world, and they will continue, if they remember to let men believe that men rule the world.

[Annamariah]

That is true. Women have always ruled the world, and they will continue, if they remember to let men believe that men rule the world.

"Man might be the head of the family, but woman is the neck that turns the head" :D

[PeterL]

"Man might be the head of the family, but woman is the neck that turns the head" :D

Amen, or should I write: "Ah women"?

[bibliophile190]

I think Agatha Christie usually did a pretty good job in realistically portraying her male characters.

[dramasnot6]

I thought, at the beggining,before it became painfully misogynistic in message, "The French Lieutenants Woman" by John Fowles offered a very interesting portrayel of the female mind.

[bazarov]

Tolstoy's Anna Karenina is the best male character and except Agatha Christie, I'm not familiar with women writers :p :p Sorry, Bronte and Austen fans!
Well, definitely Pierre Cake( known as Piece Von Cake), by Downing, new rising star on beautiful literature sky!

[Bakiryu]

I've never found a writer who can describe the mind of a woman. That must mean either I have a weird mind or I don't understand women. Weird.

I did Identify with Callie from Middlesex (except for the part on being a hermaphrodite of course), but I can't really remember an specific author.

Women in books are often so boorish and insipid (except for some good manga).

[PeterL]

I've never found a writer who can describe the mind of a woman. That must mean either I have a weird mind or I don't understand women. Weird.


While I am not a woman (so I don't have the same perspective on the matter) I have observed the same thing. No writers describe women's minds, and that includes female writers. I almost get the feeling that woman writers deliberately omit large parts of how women think.

[grace86]

I think D.H. Lawrence did a beautiful job portraying his female characters. Hehe of course I am not the first forumer to mention him.

Talisin, did you say "I" in your first post?? :eek2:

[downing]

Tolstoy's Anna Karenina is the best male character and except Agatha Christie, I'm not familiar with women writers :p :p Sorry, Bronte and Austen fans!
Well, definitely Pierre Cake( known as Piece Von Cake), by Downing, new rising star on beautiful literature sky!




:lol: brother Goebbels

[Janine]

I think D.H. Lawrence did a beautiful job portraying his female characters. Hehe of course I am not the first forumer to mention him.

Talisin, did you say "I" in your first post?? :eek2:

Gee I wonder who you are referring to, Grace....Hehehe - you mean me and Pensive - she mentioned him first; I just expounded on that comment.

Gearing up for next short story - Pensive, Grace, and (?)... I will announce it tonight. Happy reading ~ J

[NikolaiI]

A couple of things here. One, my grandmother has been writing for years about the idea that it is harder for a man to write from a woman's perspective as for a woman to write in a man's. Do you think this is true? And the other, this concept I've heard about but don't remember in detail, something about how the male perspective is the independent one, and the female is the dependent one in our society, I guess related to the first. So it's difficult for women to write from a woman's perspective as being the main thing, and discarding the other perspective. And if someone does, is it accepted very much?

[Noisms]

But how would you ever know? I'm a man, so I don't know what it's like to be a woman; therefore, how am I equipped to judge whether a male author writes women correctly or accurately? And vice versa - women can't judge whether women writers are painting accurate portrayals of the way men think, because they don't have a basis for comparison.

So I think the only thing we can actually make a judgement on is how people from the opposite sex write about our own sex. And I have to say that I rarely read a woman writer whose portrayals of male characters are at all convincing. The one exception that I can think of off the top of my head is Donna Tartt, whose main character in The Secret History rings true in his thoughts and behaviour as a typical emo wannabe-intellectual college boy.

[blazeofglory]

The thing is, I have seen that male writers have done quite well when picturing male characters, as have female writers with female characters.

But now the thing is the opposite sex. There are not many writers who can acccurately picture the oppossite sex's character's mind.

So, the question is:

Female forumers, which male writer do you think has most accurately described the mind of a woman; the same question to male forumers: which female author has most accurately described the mind of a male character's inner world?


And, oh yes, sorry for my terrible english.


This is possible because writing is mainly fictiously done, and we are in interaction, both male sexes and female sexes, and we can understand one another and they find reflections whether they are male or femable characters.

[Virgil]

I think D.H. Lawrence did a beautiful job portraying his female characters. Hehe of course I am not the first forumer to mention him.

I would have to agree, Lawrence does a great job with female characters. I know, I'm not a woman, so how can I be so sure? Well, they just seem correct. On the other side of the coin, Hemmingway does a horrible job with female characters.

As to women writers I'm a little hard pressed to recall memorable male characters by a woman novelist. I think the male characters of Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights strike me as real. Also Edith Wharton's Ethan Frome struck me as a real man.

[cziffra]

Would it be silly to mention JK Rowling? I know a lot of people don't value her work very highly (at least, not as "literature") but I do think she nailed gender remarkably well. I never doubted Harry or Ron as characters, and this is quite remarkable given that they grow up over 7 years. Also, to my knowledge, Rowling does not have a son, so her imagination is really something. A remarkable achievement, writing through the mind of someone not only of the opposite sex also through the stormy years of adolescence.

[Etienne]

Dostoevsky's female characters are often quite interesting, most are moulded in the same women however, but "his" women are often the core of the plot (The Idiot, The Gambler), or are at least a very important element (Crime and Punishment, The Brothers Karamazov)

[Old Crow]

For some reason the first author that sprung to mind when I read this topic was Anton Chekov. I'm a male so, of course, I can't entirely vouche for the validity of his female characters, but, taking aside the fact that their developments tend to occur in massive epiphanies (which was more due to the fact that he worked mainly in short stories and plays, making epiphanies necessary to the narrative) his female characters seemed to strike me as being particularly stark and realistic.

As far as a female author portraying a male character, the first that comes to mind is Iris Murdoch's Charles Arrowby from "The Sea, The Sea", particularly in the way she describes the feverish irrationality and intensity of jelousy. But then again, that might say more about me then it does about Iris Murdoch, which is another point: Doesn't framing a question about the realism of characters specifically by their gender disposition a person to answer based on their own perspective of what they believe a male/female should be, and not what they actually are?

If some one were to name Lady Macbeth or Heathcliff in this thread, what would that say about their perception of the gender they were reflecting on as a whole, despite the fact that both those characters are realistic? The point I'm trying to make is that great characters are great by virtue of their universal appeal, and not by their gender specificity. Not to criticize this thread, since, after all, there's nothing actually wrong with dwelling on gender issues, but I think sometimes we skew toward the best in ourselves when so many great characters have been forged out of demonizations.

[writerx]

so what about modern female writers portraying modern male characters?

[Lioness_Heart]

It seems to me as though male characters are in general more convincing than female ones (although that may just be because i'm not male so can't tell the difference), but at least certainly in the way that they seem from a woman's perspective.

Probably the most convincing female characters I've found have been by Jane Austen; Catherine in Northanger Abbey is really easy to identify with as a teenage girl. But then there are women who characterise women really shockingly, like Mary Shelley in Frankenstein (although there is the whole debate as to whether this was done on purpose).

I find some of Shakespeare's female characters quite convincing (taken in the context of the time) as he quite often seems to look at things from the female perspective more than his contemporaries.

[Dori]

But Dostoevsky also gave good descriptions for the female characters in the Poor People.

I just happened to have finished this book not too long ago, and I must say that I agree with you, subterranean.


Nathaniel Hawthorne also masters the female essence with Hester Prynne in _The Scarlet Letter_.

I also agree with this, from what I can remember.


Dostoevsky's female characters are often quite interesting, most are moulded in the same women however, but "his" women are often the core of the plot (The Idiot, The Gambler), or are at least a very important element (Crime and Punishment, The Brothers Karamazov)

Yes, and they are often the strongest characters in his novels too. Take Poor Folk, for example.


For some reason the first author that sprung to mind when I read this topic was Anton Chekov. I'm a male so, of course, I can't entirely vouche for the validity of his female characters, but, taking aside the fact that their developments tend to occur in massive epiphanies (which was more due to the fact that he worked mainly in short stories and plays, making epiphanies necessary to the narrative) his female characters seemed to strike me as being particularly stark and realistic.

I've never really looked into this, but now that you mention it, Chekhov does seem to portray his female characters realistically. Of course, this is also coming from yet another male perspective. Are there any females here that can vouch for Chekhov's female characters as being true-to-life?

Now that I think about it, who am I to say the portrayal of any woman is realistic? Oh dear, as a think further, I realize I haven't read much of anything written by women. (**frantically searches through shelves to find a book written by a woman---finds To Kill a Mocking Bird**) I must say, Harper Lee (and I know it has been mentioned here before) did a wonderful job of depicting her male characters. Ah, now my post will be at least somewhat justifiable :D .

[Lioness_Heart]

I've never really looked into this, but now that you mention it, Chekhov does seem to portray his female characters realistically. Of course, this is also coming from yet another male perspective. Are there any females here that can vouch for Chekhov's female characters as being true-to-life?
.

The only thing I've read by Chekhov is Uncle Vanya, and in that I thought that Sonia was very good in showing some of the concerns of young women (like where she tells of how she heard herself being described as 'plain') as well as being quite a convincing character in general. But I wasn't too keen on the characterisation of Yelena because she seems a bit inconsistent and sometimes 2-D. Some people have siad that this may have been his intention in creating her character, but it makes her not very convincing as a woman.

[Dori]

I think Tolstoy portrays women very accurately in "The Kreutzer Sonata." :p

(For anyone who has read this, hopefully you will get that I'm joking.)

[blackbird_9]

Bukowski

[Dori]

Bukowski

Would you care to elaborate?

[blackbird_9]

lol. Not really. I'm just doing a poor job at trying to be funny. :p

[thescholar]

Vivian Vande Velde did exceptionally well portraying the female pysche in Heir Apparent

[Dori]

lol. Not really. I'm just doing a poor job at trying to be funny. :p

Oh, okay. I don't get it though, since I haven't read anything by Bukowski.

For those who haven't read "The Kreutzer Sonata," here's a taste of Tolstoy's excellent portrayal of women:

"Don't trust a horse in the field, or your wife in your house."

"It is a marvelous thing how full of illusion is the notion that beauty is an advantage. A beautiful woman says all sorts of foolishness, you listen and you don't hear any foolishness, but what you hear seems to you wisdom itself. She says and does vulgar things, and to you it seems lovely. Even when she does not say stupid or vulgar things, but is simply beautiful, you are convinced that she is miraculously wise and moral."

"...but women know perfectly well that the most sublime, and as we call it the most poetic, love depends, not on moral qualities, but on physical proximity and then on the way of doing up the hair, the complextion, the cut of the gown. Ask an experienced coquette who has set herself the task of entrapping a man, which she would prefer to risk: being detected in falsehood, cruelty, even immortality, in the presence of the onewhom she is trying to entice, or to appear before him in a badly made or unbecomig gown,---and everytime she would choose the first."

:p

This is all very reminiscent of one of my track coach's 'sayings': "Women; can't shoot 'em, can't shoot 'em."

[naomi moon]

I guess that Gustave Flaubert did a great job in "Madame Bovary"

[kelby_lake]

Haper Lee is just a master of characterization in general. Scout is one of my favorite and most lovable characters.

Scout is one of the most annoying literary characters ever. She was so up-herself. needed a good slap that one. none of the female characters were interesting in that book and it was quite sexist.

personally i think f. scott fitzgerald wrote women very well. and i agree with the comment about vanity fair and becky sharp.

and tennessee williams was brilliant at writing women: lady, blanche, stella...
take note, lee.

it's hard to write interesting female characters.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Scout is one of the most annoying literary characters ever. She was so up-herself. needed a good slap that one.

Never heard that before. May I ask why?

[HoVis]

Would it be silly to mention JK Rowling? I know a lot of people don't value her work very highly (at least, not as "literature") but I do think she nailed gender remarkably well. I never doubted Harry or Ron as characters, and this is quite remarkable given that they grow up over 7 years. Also, to my knowledge, Rowling does not have a son, so her imagination is really something. A remarkable achievement, writing through the mind of someone not only of the opposite sex also through the stormy years of adolescence.

I don't think it's silly to mention Rowling, I was thinking of her too (not that I know how a male adolescent thinks, being female :p)

One brilliant portrayal of the teenage female mind by a male writer can be found in "The Pillow Book of Cordelia Kenn", written by Aidan Chambers. The book left quite an impression on me because he simply did not ignore any detail - however gory, sorry gentlemen! - of the female 'experience'. This is from a 70+ guy! Very impressive, if a rather challenging book to get through due to the layout at times (at one point he has two narratives running concurrently, one on either side of the page).

I don't know why, but as a writer, I often find male characters easier to write than female, despite being a girl myself. I find there's less temptation to put your own characteristics into a character of the opposite sex. Hmm...

What do people think of Jane Austen's characterisation of men? A lot of them seem far more one-sided than her female characters (compare Emma's emotional growth with Mr Knightley's fairly constant brooding manner). I don't know if this is a fair assessment or not - I guess it's hard to tell since she rarely writes from the perspective of the male characters.

Anywhoo, that's just my two-pennies on the matter :)

HoVis

***
China in... 70+ days!!!

[kelby_lake]

Never heard that before. May I ask why?

she went on about being so clever and being better than school but she was too thick to understand everything else and she was annoying and sexist.

[*Classic*Charm*]

But that is one of the most important aspects of the novel. The growth and maturation of Scout is one of the foremost themes of the novel. SHe may have been intelligent in terms of her schooling, but what one learns outside of the classroom is what truly defines one's character.

As for her being "annoying" I suppose that's a matter of personal opinion, but how was she sexist?

[Geraint]

Viriginia Woolf seems to do so particularly well, but the minds that she chooses to portray are hardly average male ones (particuarly Septimus Smith and Peter Walsh in Mrs Dalloway, so perhaps she avoids the natural traps and pit-falls of cliche by travelling a rare path.

Harper Lee does particularly well, too.

[kelby_lake]

But that is one of the most important aspects of the novel. The growth and maturation of Scout is one of the foremost themes of the novel. SHe may have been intelligent in terms of her schooling, but what one learns outside of the classroom is what truly defines one's character.

As for her being "annoying" I suppose that's a matter of personal opinion, but how was she sexist?

she doesn't really mature that much and nothing really changes at the end. there's just a big smily american happy ending.

And we can hardly call her a master of characterisation- she only ever wrote one book, not much of one at that.

[valleyjune]

D.H. Lawrence and Arturo Perez Reverte as for female characters, for sure!!! :nod:

[Astromaxis]

I don't think D.H. Lawrence always got it right when describing women but to say he is completely wrong would be unfair as well - for his times he did do right by putting out the fact that women, just as men, require sex and that sex is important.

I think Margaret Atwood does a great job in describing males. Be them antagonistic, emotive or plain mysterious she does their mentalities perfectly. Orhan Pamuk understands women's psychologies too to many extents though as most of his narratives that I have read have a male protagonist I cannot know for certain about him. Marquez understands many aspects of women and so does Milan Kundera.

I think Toni Morrison does as well which she proves in her novel Beloved. Stamp Paid is a character who earns our love and respect by being so tragically human. Arundhati Roy understands men as well.

Stephen King does but I am not sure on how a woman acts in his action centered novels but he definitely understands them to many extents. Sydney Sheldon did justice to women characters in the full. But Stephenie Meyer does not. Both Edward and Jacob's potentials becoming drowned in the gooyness of Bella Swan. Her men are ideal nightmares. It's tragic if King is panned for making truthful statements.

[kelby_lake]

I like the female characters in Vanity Fair by Thackeray... Both Becky Sharp and Amelia Sedley are memorable characters, I think.

Yep. I think Lawrence did well for women. Fitzgerald didn't do too bad. And most of the best female theatre parts were written by Tennessee Williams- and Shakey :)