The Fall of Man: God must be a misanthrope

[Renton]

Since this thread hasn't produced any help towards my thesis, and it doesn't seem to be going anywhere I am asking the thread be deleted.

[Jeb0092]

It sounds like an interesting argument. I have one question, something I have always wondered, where does it say in the Bible about Satan rebelling against God. I know it is in Milton, but what exact verses in the Bible talk about this. You will need to compare those verses with what Milton says.

[Renton]

From what I know, the verse best suited to this compairison is from Isaiah 14:12-15....
"How you have fallen from heaven O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High'. But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit."

There are varying perspectives on the other details of Satan as a being in the Old Testament and apocryphal books, but the New Testament contains a pretty consistent view. That put aside, this should establish Satan's origin.

[bardophile]

I can't quote the bible where it says that God knows all; however assuming that is true then He had to know that Eve and Adam would eat the forbidden fruit, yet he banished them from Eden for doing what he knew they would do. Therein lies a conundrum I have been unable to solve.

[papayahed]

I'm not seeing how Adam and Eve killed Jesus?

[Renton]

Well, I was trying to keep from quoting Milton, but that is his stated purpose in writing Paradise Lost.... how can free will exist in the face of omnipotence? The answer he proposes, in due credit to the question, is pretty complex, but a nice summary is in one of his lines....
Man was created.... "sufficient to have stood, but free to fall." Book 3, line 99. The paradox only applies when we assume the free will and paradise can exist together. Even if Adam and Eve refrained from eating the apple... they would have been there for ETERNITY. That in itself is a self fufilling prophecy. I appreciate the response, but I feel this conversational direction isn't all that connected to what I'm attempting to argue. Nonetheless, I hope I at least gave you food for thought.

EDIT- For papayahed;
My point here is that by committing the origional sin, they created the need for mankinds redemption, hence the reason Jesus died. Albeit they did not cruxify him, their actions ensured the resulting torment. By acting against the will of God, they accepted unto themselves blame for perverting God's creation. Its a somewhat convolluted arguement, and I will add more if you wish, but I make the point as an affront against humanity in general. However, I still feel some validity in pointing to Adam and Eve as the failure inducing Christ's cruxifiction.

[hellsapoppin]

I can't quote the bible where it says that God knows all; however assuming that is true then He had to know that Eve and Adam would eat the forbidden fruit, yet he banished them from Eden for doing what he knew they would do. Therein lies a conundrum I have been unable to solve.


See I John 3:20

There should not be any conundrum as it is clear that the biblical god has duality: he is both good and evil.

As I mentioned on another thread, the root for the word 'god' and the the number 'two' (which shows duality) is the same in many Western languages: for example, dieu and deux in French, dos and dios in Spanish. This means that both language group origins know or knew that the god has duality. Thus, he created the Fall because of his innately evil nature. This in great contrast to Christian teaching which dictates that he can only do good.


Is, therefore, the god a misanthrope? Well, he said he is a jealous god and one quick to ''visit great iniquity upon the third and fourth generations'' of those who disobey his wicked ways. On that basis, one shoud not be faulted for answering in the affirmative.

[Logos]

Closed at request of OP