to begin with ...the end

[nns]

I quote from the summary of the book "1984" you can find on this web-site:

"Winston and Julia are sent to the Ministry of Love which is a sort of rehabilitation center for criminals accused of thoughtcrime. There, Winston was separated from Julia, and tortured until his beliefs coincided with those of the Party. Winston denounces everything he believed in, even his love for Julia, and was released back into the public where he wastes his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin."

Every time I get to read a summary of the book somewhere, the end we are presented with is the one reported above, according to which Winston is released from the Ministry of Love and allowed to lead a meaningless life, wasting his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin.

That's an aberration! Whoever has written such nonsense shows that he/she has not understood much about this beautiful novel, that he/she has must have missed the point.

Winston Smith dies. Shot in his head by the Party. There can be no doubt about this. The narrator cannot tell us (the readers) about this, simply because the narrator's "job" ends the very moment the bullet enters WS skull. No time left to formulate fresh thoughts.
"He loved the Big Brother". That’s precisely the moment the Party had been waiting for to carry out their death sentence. I mean, it is written all over the place: the Party would not tolerate thoughtcrime. Whoever is accused of such a criime shall die. Winston Smith is not the exception. There can be no exception.
The Party is merely waiting for the criminal (especially the thoughtcriminal) to become "perfect" before executing him. Just like O'Brien says: "don't worry: eventually, we will kill you". Winston loves the Big Brother? His time has come to die.

To me, to think that WS is left to waste his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin is simply unconceivable: there would be no consistency; half of the beauty of the book would be gone.

nns

[crisaor]

I'm not sure about this. The bullet entering his brain can be understood as he's imagining it, there's no real evidence of the contrary, although like you, I would imagine that he's shot when he's finally broken by the Party.
The movie chooses the no gunshot ending, though.

[Taliesin]

The movie chooses the no gunshot ending, though.
Do my eyes deceive me? Did crisaor really use "It was so in the movie" as an argument?
This is the beginning of the end, I say. :banana:

But, yes, I think too, that Winston was shot. Just that it was not said doesn't mean that it wasn't done.

[Stanislaw]

I don't believe that he was physically shot, only mentally, he lost all that was unique in him, and effectivly "died", he was still alive just living completely for the party, not a shade of humanity left

[simon]

Stanislaw's captured it, he lost initiative, he lost drive, gumption, purpose and life, but he did not die.

[crisaor]

Do my eyes deceive me? Did crisaor really use "It was so in the movie" as an argument?
This is the beginning of the end, I say. :banana:
Your eyes are fine :). It's your mind that played you. I wasn't using that argument, I was merely mentioning that fact, in case someone didn't see the movie. The book is almost always better (a theme for another time). I did say that I went with the Winston dead ending.

[imthefoolonthehill]

NNS is correct. He died. read it again...

[subterranean]

Well I'm reading the translation version :(. So I dont know whether the translator took it literarly that Winston is physically. But until now I think Winston did died physically after he was dead mentally.

[simon]

But Big Brother wouldn't be victorious if Winston dies, the whole point is to conquer the person, if he dies he has found an escape.

[crisaor]

But Big Brother wouldn't be victorious if Winston dies, the whole point is to conquer the person, if he dies he has found an escape.
No, the whole point is to break the person. Once that is done, that person has already been conquered, it doesn't matter if he dies afterwards. When Winston died (assuming he died, which I do), he didn't feel liberated, he loved Big Brother, he didn't care about anything else. The real escape was his relationship with Julia, their mutual love, his awareness of the situation.

[Taliesin]

No, the whole point is to break the person. Once that is done, that person has already been conquered, it doesn't matter if he dies afterwards. When Winston died (assuming he died, which I do), he didn't feel liberated, he loved Big Brother, he didn't care about anything else. The real escape was his relationship with Julia, their mutual love, his awareness of the situation.

Actually, I re-read the book and have another opinion. I am afraid that I have to more-less agree with you.

The fact whether Winston was shot or not does absolutely not matter. It is merely a detail. To Winston, only the mind is real ("if I believe so, and O'Brien believes so, then he could fly like a soap bubble") There is no physical reality to Winston (there is only his mind) any more and we cannot say whether he was shot or not. It does not matter any more.

[subterranean]

I thought the love to the big brother is meant as an irony..i mean he didnt really love the Big B..

[Stanislaw]

Not physically, but he loved him emotionally. like a father.

[crisaor]

Actually, I re-read the book and have another opinion. I am afraid that I have to more-less agree with you.
So sorry about that. ;)

The fact whether Winston was shot or not does absolutely not matter. It is merely a detail. To Winston, only the mind is real ("if I believe so, and O'Brien believes so, then he could fly like a soap bubble") There is no physical reality to Winston (there is only his mind) any more and we cannot say whether he was shot or not. It does not matter any more.
Good point, and it makes for a much more interesting interpretation of the book's ending.

[subterranean]

The fact whether Winston was shot or not does absolutely not matter. It is merely a detail. To Winston, only the mind is real ("if I believe so, and O'Brien believes so, then he could fly like a soap bubble") There is no physical reality to Winston (there is only his mind) any more and we cannot say whether he was shot or not. It does not matter any more.

Do you mean that Winston still owned his own reality/mind, even until his death? COz it'd meant that in the end Big B lost the battle.

[nns]

Sorry guys. Unfortunatelly I don't have the English version of the book with me. But, really, to all of you who think that WS does not die, or think that this is a minor detail, I suggest you go back and read the book again and again. Not all of the book: focus only on Part III.
In particular, there's a very interesting passage towards the end of chapter 2, in which O'Brien actually explains WHY the Party will ultimately kill those who accused of thoughtcrime. I would love to quote that paragraph but can't (maybe somebody else will). In short: The thoughtcriminal is a mistake the Party cannot tolerate.
I have red the book both in English (twice), Italian (4 or 5 times), Romanian (once) and French (once).
Believe me. the only conclusion you can reach is that WS is shot dead.
But one cannot expect George Orwell to give a "detailed report" about WS's execution. That would have been -how can I put it?- ...bad.
There a sort of elegance in letting the reader get to the conclusion. Remember: Power is not a mean, power it's the goal. Killing Winston only after he has become perfect (he LOVES the Big Brother) is the ultimate demonstration of the Party's power.

[crisaor]

Do you mean that Winston still owned his own reality/mind, even until his death? COz it'd meant that in the end Big B lost the battle.
I think Taliesin means that it doesn't matter if the party killed Winston at the end or not. His spirit was broken, his awareness shattered. He lost, Big Brother won, it didn't matter if he died or not.

Sorry guys. Unfortunatelly I don't have the English version of the book with me. But, really, to all of you who think that WS does not die, or think that this is a minor detail, I suggest you go back and read the book again and again. Not all of the book: focus only on Part III.
In particular, there's a very interesting passage towards the end of chapter 2, in which O'Brien actually explains WHY the Party will ultimately kill those who accused of thoughtcrime. I would love to quote that paragraph but can't (maybe somebody else will). In short: The thoughtcriminal is a mistake the Party cannot tolerate.
Thanks nns. I knew that there was something else other than the end that made me think that he was killed. Maybe this is the paragraph you referred to:

"O'Brien smiled slightly. 'You are a flaw in the pattern, Winston. You are a stain that must be wiped out. Did I not tell you just now that we are different from the persecutors of the past? We are not content with negative obedience, nor even with the most abject submission. When finally you surrender to us, it must be of your own free will. We do not destroy the heretic because he resists us: so long as he resists us we never destroy him. We convert him, we capture his inner mind, we reshape him. We burn all evil and all illusion out of him; we bring him over to our side, not in appearance, but genuinely, heart and soul. We make him one of ourselves before we kill him. It is intolerable to us that an erroneous thought should exist anywhere in the world, however secret and powerless it may be. Even in the instant of death we cannot permit any deviation. In the old days the heretic walked to the stake still a heretic, proclaiming his heresy, exulting in it. Even the victim of the Russian purges could carry rebellion locked up in his skull as he walked down the passage waiting for the bullet. But we make the brain perfect before we blow it out. The command of the old despotisms was "Thou shalt not". The command of the totalitarians was "Thou shalt". Our command is "Thou art". No one whom we bring to this place ever stands out against us. Everyone is washed clean. Even those three miserable traitors in whose innocence you once believed -- Jones, Aaronson, and Rutherford -- in the end we broke them down. I took part in their interrogation myself. I saw them gradually worn down, whimpering, grovelling, weeping -- and in the end it was not with pain or fear, only with penitence. By the time we had finished with them they were only the shells of men. There was nothing left in them except sorrow for what they had done, and love of Big Brother. It was touching to see how they loved him. They begged to be shot quickly, so that they could die while their minds were still clean."

[nns]

you are my man!

[subterranean]

Now..reading NNS' last post make me smile indeed ( i dont even know why)..

Cris, you missed my point there. I know that taliesin didnt focused to whether W died or not. i was asking him whether he meant that W did has his own reality still, even till the end of his life. If this is the case, then W did won afterall

[Taliesin]

No, I think that he didn't have it.
All the reality he had was given to him by BB.


But, nns, I see a point again. Darn, people would think that I am a schizophrenic when I would change my opinion again, so I cannot change it.
:( Sorry.

[subterranean]

it's not schizophrenic ...unstable perhaps ;)