What's the point of foreign travel?

[TheFifthElement]

Ok, so I'm having one of these troubling moral dilemma's and I'm hoping you guys can help me work it out.

Ever since I was very young I have wanted to see the world. It fascinates me. I'd love to go to Egypt and see the pyramids and the tombs; I'd love to visit the Great Wall of China, the soft mountainous bumps at Guilin; I'd love to see the Mayan Temples in Peru; I'd give my right arm (the useless one!) to live even for a short while in Japan; row across the Great Lakes, sip vodka in Moscow..you name it, I'd love to do it.

But here's my dilemma. Since I've had children I look at the world through different eyes and instead of thinking 'let's go here...' I think, if I do this what damage will it cause, am I leaving a mess for my children to sort out in the future, and here's the evil one what's the benefit?

and I can't answer it, other than it would fulfil my selfish desire. And whilst I don't necessarily believe in the hype about Global Warming, and I fully expect that the problems of renewable energy and so one will ultimately be solved by technology/innovation, the fact is that these problems haven't yet been solved, and I still feel that, as a parent, I need to be a responsible steward of the world I will leave my children in when I am dead and gone. So I don't travel unless I have to, and I look at pictures of Japan with a sigh in my heart and wish I didn't trouble myself with these self-destructive thoughts. And I look at other people hopping on planes, coming back with their photo's and experiences of places I will never see and I'm jealous. Don't get me wrong, I don't judge anyone for traveling whether it's necessary / unnecessary whatever that means, but unless I can justify it to myself I just can't bring myself to do it.

So Lit-net, help me. Can I fulfil my dream and still be a responsible steward? Is there a justifiable reason, or do I have to sacrifice my dream in the interests of my children?

[SleepyWitch]

hum... that's a very tough question. I've pondered this one a lot myself, even though I don't have children yet... grrrrrrrrrrrr I must confess hubby and me are going to Brum and Manchester next week and we're going by budget airline (Nuremberg to London) because a train ticket costs 3 times as much... I love going by train and it doesn't bother me one bit that it takes 10 hours or something instead of 1 by plane, but it's simply not affordable for a student+ unemployed graduate (me and hubby).

one of my geography teachers at univ said "The best thing we can do about global warming is to use as much fossil fuels as possible because when they're all used up, humanity will be forced to look for alternatives" :p
Actually, I think he's got a point there.

whatever you do, don't sacrifice your dream for your children. if you do this, you may become a grumpy old woman one day and you'll nag your children for the rest of their lives "If it hadn't been for you, I could have ....". maybe that way the world will be a safer and cleaner place for them to live in, but what good will that do them if their mother is a cranky old hag? :sick:

[papayahed]

whatever you do, don't sacrifice your dream for your children. if you do this, you may become a grumpy old woman one day and you'll nag your children for the rest of their lives "If it hadn't been for you, I could have ....". maybe that way the world will be a safer and cleaner place for them to live in, but what good will that do them if their mother is a cranky old hag? :sick:


Good point! Also, are you teaching your kids to not fulfill their dreams by not fufilling yours?

Maybe doing volunteer work at a recycling center or some type of environmental causes might alleviate some of the guilt. There are websites where you can do something (I think it's donate money) to reduce your carbon footprint (although personally I haven't checked into it enough to feel cmfortable doing it).

[1n50mn14]

I am selfish and would rather go out and experience the world while we still can, before we run out of fossil fuels to fuel jets, before the world's political state degenerates so much we can't travel, and before people decide that it is, in fact, too environmentally unhealthy to allow frivolous vacation travel.

I think the benefit is a greater range of self knowledge, respect for other cultures and a global knowledge. I think someday in the future, you'll be able to look back and say "Yeah, I'm glad I did that."

I agree with Papayahed about alleviating guilt by doing other environmental work/

And I also agree with Sleepy... you don't want to have to look back and blame your children some day. :p

[Dori]

When I was younger, I was fascinated by the world and I wanted to travel anywhere I could. However, not to long ago, it occurred to me that I had everything I could ever want here in America. I live in a beautiful countryside. There's a world-class museum 30 minutes down the road. If I wanted to experience different cultures, there are several means of doing so in this beautiful country.

I don't really think there is any benefit to traveling outside of one's country, but those are simply words from a patriotic American. :p

[Erichtho]

Have you ever thought about volunteering abroad, e.g. doing some kind of social work (even teaching English) or maybe working in an ecological project for a while? That way you certainly don't need to feel guilty and you would learn much more about the country's culture.

I love to travel and use every opportunity that is offered to me, and I'm sure that it makes me a richer person - rich in memories, in experience with other cultures and life in general. During my journeys I have often met very interesting people and learnt things I couldn't have learnt in any other way.

If you stay a bit off the beaten tracks every journey can be more rewarding than you could imagine. It isn't just selfish - think about how many people live only from tourism, think about how important it is especially nowadays to gain deeper insight into other cultures, to see your country in perspective to other countries and learn from them - it would be such a loss to only know your homeland and to only speak your native language!

[SleepyWitch]

no offense, Dori, but studying other cultures in a museum etc and living in one of them for a while are totally different.... well, I mean it depends.. some people are good at grasping things from a distance (i.e. through museums, books etc), but as a creature of direct experience, I found that reading text books did not prepare me in any way for living in England for a year.

[papayahed]

no offense, Dori, but studying other cultures in a museum etc and living in one of them for a while are totally different.... well, I mean it depends.. some people are good at grasping things from a distance (i.e. through museums, books etc), but as a creature of direct experience, I found that reading text books did not prepare me in any way for living in England for a year.

I agree. I've read about mayan culture and ruins for years and none of that compares to climbing to the top of a mayan pyramid.

[Sweets America]

Fifth, I love the way you torture yourself with these questions, that sounds like me!:p
It is very thoughtful of you to think of the consequences of fulfilling your dreams. I cannot answer your question. I think the point raised by Sleepy was an important one, because there is a possibility that you could be angry at your kids in the back of your mind if you impede yourself from fulfilling your dreams because of them. In the meantime, you would mostly do it for them, for their sake, and in this case you could feel something good in the sacrifice. It depends on people, I guess.

I think that in this case, even if I cannot tell you what would be the best thing to do, I can tell you that I personally would choose to be selfish and to fulfill my dreams. Well, you already know I am going to do it. It's bad to be selfish, but I will be because I want to reach self-fulfilment.

[TheFifthElement]

Yes, I am cruel to myself ;)

I don't think I could blame my children, it is my choice not theirs and in a sense they are my bigger, better dream so if I had to choose one dream over the other, because I couldn't do both, then I would always pick them and never regret it. Of course I could always keep that quiet, secret hope that one day one of them will solve the problem of renewable energy, so their dear old Mum can fulfil a life long dream. You never know.

I like papaya's idea though, so if I do travel I can plant a few trees, do some environmental work, and compensate for any damage I might have done. Then I wouldn't feel so guilty. Perhaps the kids could help me, then perhaps they would understand that you can have your dreams and still be responsible. Yes, I like that idea very much.

Sweets - don't feel guilty! I'm a bit older than you (well, quite a bit!), I remember, vaguely, what it's like to be in your 20's, and I've been plenty selfish over the years. I think that is the blessing and curse of kids - by their very existence they force you to examine and re-examine everything you've done, and question what you're going to do next, especially when you're a self-torturing, questioning kind of soul like me ;)

[Dori]

no offense, Dori, but studying other cultures in a museum etc and living in one of them for a while are totally different.... well, I mean it depends.. some people are good at grasping things from a distance (i.e. through museums, books etc), but as a creature of direct experience, I found that reading text books did not prepare me in any way for living in England for a year.

I wouldn't expect reading text books would prepare me for living in a foreign country for a while (unless they were language text books, but that's a different story).

My intentions in my previous post were simple: I meant only to elaborate on my own situation. Although it would be nice to visit a foreign country, as I get older, I feel less and less inclined to travel. I'm perfectly fine with what I have already.

What I'm having trouble understanding is why everyone wants to travel to other countries. What's the point?

[JBI]

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield - Ulysses, by Alfred Lord Tennyson.

I think that sums it up, and the whole poem sums the whole thing up nicely.

[bouquin]

Twenty years from now
you will be more disappointed
by the things you didn't do
than by the things you did do.
So throw off the bowlines.
Sail away from the safe harbour.
Catch the trade winds in sails.
Explore. Dream. Discover.

[papayahed]

What I'm having trouble understanding is why everyone wants to travel to other countries. What's the point?


To experience things you can't on mainstreet.


It's the difference between watching the superbowl on TV and being in the stadium.

[Annamariah]

It's the difference between watching the superbowl on TV and being in the stadium.

I've always wondered why people want to pay so much for some sport event they could see much better on TV where it wouldn't even cost anything :lol: Well, I've never been much into watching sports anyway, so maybe I'm not the right person to say anything here.

My family has never been one to travel much (I've been outside Finland only twice: the first time was when our family did the only trip to another country. We went to see Legoland in Denmark. The second one was with my class in 9th grade, we went to Saarenmaa, Estonia). I've never gone anywhere by a plane, and after realising how bad it is for the environment, I don't know if I'd even want to.

[SleepyWitch]

don't forget the toilet paper, Virge :D


yeah, well, even if there is lots of oil left (and I agree with you that there is), much of the oil that is still around is harder to drill than the portion we have already used up. so it will be uneconomical and very expensive to drill for it. even if all the oil that's still left can be exploited, prices will soar as the oil gets more and more difficult to get hold of and only a few select ppl will be able to afford it

edit to add:
Fifth, don't get me wrong, I truly admire the way you stick to your principles (you're even crazier than me :D). but if you really want to go, I think you should. you could save up for a couple of years and maybe if your job situation allows it you could take a gap year in a couple of years so you've got lots of time to travel. this way you wouldn't need to go by plane but could travel by train in Europe and mainland Asia and by ship/ ferry etc when you go to Japan or other islands/ different continents ???

[Virgil]

What difference does it make if it's a train or a plane? They both consume energy. Is the train run by electricity? Even so, the power plant is burning fuel.

[Mirth]

Airlines are blossoming. More and more routes are added to, for instance, Ryan Air's table half-yearly. The planes are gonna fly whether you're in them or not.

Same with the very few people that refuse to eat fish. Oh the poor fish, they're gonna be extinct so soon, oh I /must/ help them. Oh yea, very well done. The very fish that you haven't eaten has just been thrown into the dust bin. I mean, they won't stop overfishing because of a few folk that are against it...neither will they stop flying because some people believe planes are our nemesis.

That said, I don't wanna come over as someone who thinks we can do whatever we like. Virgil, what are you blinded by? What is it that clouds your vision? You don't have to be a fudging scientist to see that global warming is real. The way the media put it may, admittedly, be somewhat over the top, true. That, however, shouldn't let you conclude that only because it isn't exactly the way the media want you to believe, it is nonexistent, a complete hoax. But hey, since I'm selfish enough it doesn't really matter to me what happens in 50 years.

[TEND]

Airlines are blossoming. More and more routes are added to, for instance, Ryan Air's table half-yearly. The planes are gonna fly whether you're in them or not.


I was about to make that point. It doesn't matter if you're on the plane or not, it's flying so.....why not be on it? I agree with Virgil, it's silly to deny yourself the wonderful experience of travel for something so trivial, and that will occur anyways, as much as we all like to believe we're changing the world all you're doing is missing out on what would no doubt be some of the most memorable moments of your life.
Honestly, you cannot believe what the world is like outside of yours. All the books, videos, websites around cannot prepare you for what it's like.

The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page.
- St. Augustine

[Kafka's Crow]

I love traveling but I would rather spend my money and time on my children's education and on buying books. There are many ways of saving the future of our earth and if our children grow up ignorant, uncivilized and thoughtless, then the planet is not worth saving anyway. With Indian and Chinese economies growing at breakneck speeds, there is nothing we can do while sitting in the West that would make any difference as the future is in the hands of these two gigantic nations. We would only deprive ourselves of the short-lived convenience of flying or driving a comfortable car. The way the fuel prices are rocketing (£1.05 a litre at my local pump or $2.10), soon we will be cycling around or riding horses. The loss of fossil fuels is irreversible (good riddance, I'd say), the absence or dearth of patrol would enable the earth to heal itself. I'd say, live, enjoy and make hay while the patrol burns, soon it will be gone and we will be back to square one again. The bloody thing hardly lasted a generation and it has caused more deaths and wars than any other mineral including gold.

[Pensive]

What's the point of travelling? The same that is of satisfying one's curiosity. I would have to say I am full of wanderlust.

[TheFifthElement]

Mirth, this is an interesting point :


Airlines are blossoming. More and more routes are added to, for instance, Ryan Air's table half-yearly. The planes are gonna fly whether you're in them or not.


but then airlines are market driven - if there weren't people getting on the planes, then the aircraft wouldn't be flying.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to stop people flying, and so on. It's more a question of, since I've had children, I have to weigh everything I do, or think, or decide against the impact it has on them. So whilst I have no intention of being a martyr, their very existence makes me question what I really get out of foreign travel and, like Dori, I have questioned whether I actually get more than I could get if I really studied a country from my home. If I went to live there it would be different, but bobbing in and out in two weeks is no way to get to know a place, and just because I want to, doesn't mean that I should. I teach my kids that lesson all the time, if I think it's valid for them then it should be valid for me, shouldn't it?



Fifth, don't get me wrong, I truly admire the way you stick to your principles (you're even crazier than me :D). but if you really want to go, I think you should. you could save up for a couple of years and maybe if your job situation allows it you could take a gap year in a couple of years so you've got lots of time to travel. this way you wouldn't need to go by plane but could travel by train in Europe and mainland Asia and by ship/ ferry etc when you go to Japan or other islands/ different continents ???

Sleepy, thanks (even the crazy part!) :) It's a good idea. In relation to the comment in bold, can I ask another, slightly different question? Imagine I had said, it's my dream to party every night, but because I've got kids I don't think that I should, so I give it up. Would you counsel me otherwise? This is where my question is coming from, there are things I'd like to do, but by doing them they might (not will, but might is enough, I think, when dealing with other people's lives) adversely affect them. If I think there's a risk, and that risk outweighs the benefit then I shouldn't do it. What I'm looking for someone to give me is a really good benefit, something better than 'just because I want to, so that the benefit outweighs the risk ;)


I agree with Virgil, it's silly to deny yourself the wonderful experience of travel for something so trivial

Sorry Tend, I just don't consider my kids' future to be trivial.

[SleepyWitch]

you could take your kids with you (when they're on holiday)? they can learn about the world etc? if you think they are too small or will whine and complain, you should take them with you all the same coz it will teach them some discipline :D

[papayahed]

Sleepy, thanks (even the crazy part!) :) It's a good idea. In relation to the comment in bold, can I ask another, slightly different question? Imagine I had said, it's my dream to party every night, but because I've got kids I don't think that I should, so I give it up. Would you counsel me otherwise? This is where my question is coming from, there are things I'd like to do, but by doing them they might (not will, but might is enough, I think, when dealing with other people's lives) adversely affect them. If I think there's a risk, and that risk outweighs the benefit then I shouldn't do it. What I'm looking for someone to give me is a really good benefit, something better than 'just because I want to, so that the benefit outweighs the risk ;)


I'm not sure you can equate partying every night to traveling,

Isn't it risky to send your kids to school everyday? Meteors are falling from the sky all the time. There's a risk everytime we walk out of the house, heck there's a risk every moment we're in the house. Nothing is certain, I think there's a point where you have to live with a certain amount of risk. But if you think the risk is that great to adversly effect your children then perhaps you shouldn't travel.

[SleepyWitch]

Hi Fifth, I've started browsing through some books on tourism for my Geography exams. I found a list of benefits and costs of tourism detailing the benefits/costs for both tourists and host countries. I'll type up only the benefits here, assuming you're familiar with the negative aspects.


Goeldner, Charles R./ J. R. Brent Ritchie (2003, 9th edition): Tourism - Principles, Practices, Philosophies. Hoboken, New Jersey: John Wiley& Sons, Inc.

p. 32-33: Benefits and Costs of Tourism

Benefits

- Provides employment opportunities, both skilled and unskilled, because it is a labor-intensive industry
- Generates a supply of needed foreign exchange
- Increases incomes
- Creates increased gross national product
- Can be built on existing infrastructure
- Develops an infrastructure that will also help stimulate local commerce and industry
- Can be developed with local products and resources
- Helps to diversify the economy
- Tends to be one of the most compatible economic development activities available to an area, complementing other economic activities
- Spreads development
- Has a high multiplier impact
- Increases governmental revenues
- Broadens educational and cultural horizons and improves feelings of self-worth
- Improves the quality of life related to a higher level of income and improved standards of living
- Reinforces preservation of heritage and tradition
- Justifies environmental protection and improvement
- Provides employment for artists, musicians, and other performing artists because of visitor interest in local culture, thereby enhancing the cultural heritage
- Provides tourist and recreational facilities that may be used by a local population
- Breaks down language barriers, sociocultural barriers, class barriers, racial barriers, political barriers, and religious barriers
- Creates a favorable worldwide image for a destination
- Promotes a global community
- Promotes international understanding and peace