Inventing God

[blazeofglory]

It sounds enigmatic. Every new idea is enigmatic and strange until we digest and assimilate it. For you are conditioned to a particular set of beliefs and you think within a box and can not dare to come out of it.

You are a prisoner of your surroundings, your relatives, your beliefs. Break the wall of the prison and see you will have a different and broad experience.

Your religions, your cultures, your upbringings are confining you within a narrow domain of your propensities.

You have gods, you have prejudices and preoccupations.

Feel free and come out of the box of your thought system.

God is you.

The cosmos is you.

All you see around you is you.

Nothing exists other than you in this universe. Everything that surrounds is you, and absolutely you. The sun is there to warm you, and the wind blows so that you can breathe.

Imagine how can God exist if you do not exist, and Go is the manifestation, crudification of your own imagination.

Imagine how does God exist to you at least if your mental frame does keep it
God is your invention

[Auriga]

That's a rather sefl centered view of the universe. The Universe exists to benefit you, and only you? If so, then what is the purpose of the Universe for me? Or for the other person? Are we to understand the Universe, even though is only for you, is also only for me and everybody else equally? That seems like an awfully complex description of what the Universe should be about, or what God should be about, in fact (not saying that I believe or disbelieve in God, I just don't agree that if there was a god, that it would be primarily centered around the pleasure and sustainability of you or me as individuals, or as a race, for that matter).

[blazeofglory]

You seem to have misunderstood me. It has nothing to do with subjectivity. I have a feeling of universality, never have I to do with my personal feeling.

[NikolaiI]

It sounds enigmatic. Every new idea is enigmatic and strange until we digest and assimilate it. For you are conditioned to a particular set of beliefs and you think within a box and can not dare to come out of it.

Yes it's rather enigmatic.


You are a prisoner of your surroundings, your relatives, your beliefs. Break the wall of the prison and see you will have a different and broad experience.

Yes this is true, but we can learn new things, in fact we're learning new things all the time. It's the forces of sun and wind and perhaps god that shape us the most.


Your religions, your cultures, your upbringings are confining you within a narrow domain of your propensities.

Also our studies and meditations shape us, and our transcendental experiences. It is possible to transcend these confines, as you yourself say you have. The question then is whether you say these things because they sound good, or because they're the end result of your meditations, and what you believe are true ideas. I, of course, see no reason to doubt you, although I don't make speculations about your personal growth or state of mind.


You have gods, you have prejudices and preoccupations.

Yes, of course, we all do, and these can be serious obstacles! ;)


Feel free and come out of the box of your thought system.

This very idea and nothing but it is helpful.


God is you.

I'm sure there's no doubt in your mind about people doubting you. This is such a bold statement, and you haven't even tried to support it so far but just throwing it out there. Quite brave of you blaze!

This is an idea of Alan Watts, though of course none of his ideas were self-originating.


But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is.

How is it possible that a being with such sensitive jewels as the eyes, such enchanted musical instruments as the ears, and such fabulous arabesque of nerves as the brain can experience itself anything less than a god.

The religious idea of God cannot do full duty for the metaphysical infinity.

You don't look out there for God, something in the sky, you look in you.

(from here; http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/alan_watts.html)


The cosmos is you.

I believe this too. If the next statement you make is true, then that might be a reason for this statement being true. How really to approach such a statement? We are each a microcasm of the macrocasm, but even this is not so true. We come into and out of existence, so existence is fleeting. Everything we know is wrong, unless we transcend thinking about temporary objects and think about those eternal. If we can say that we don't exist, then knowledge about all the non-existent phenomena we set our eyes on is also false-- or at least insubstantial or inessential with what is eternal, and essential.

I'll also approach this statement like this. All of the constructs I have, they are more or less true in some instance, because I keep snapping back to this reality. But time is a very arbitrary abstract. I think I exist in this moment, but it keeps moving and changing. Really, the moment I exist has not come yet. There will be a time when I will experience the joyous cosmology; that is the center of my life, and the universe, and the cosmos. Perhaps I am Visnu for a moment, and when I hold a blade of grass, everything is inverted and the tiniest is at one with the largest. In the joyous cosmology we know this, that we're the cosmos. Or at least we know that we've finally gotten outside time, and our other constructs. When I close my eyes, I have an out of body experience. The walls of my mind are painted with colours; if I see everything as the same, then I'm elevated to a platform of truer reality, and I'm spoken to by more real beings. They're in everything and connect it all together.

When I get to the joyous cosmology, it will be a time before my birth. Our true selves are ones that existed before our births, our destiny is one that is timeless.


All you see around you is you.

Indeed.


Nothing exists other than you in this universe. Everything that surrounds is you, and absolutely you. The sun is there to warm you, and the wind blows so that you can breathe.

Yes, and furthermore, we are sons of the sun. Not only that but we are brothers and sisters of the sun.


Imagine how can God exist if you do not exist, and Go is the manifestation, crudification of your own imagination.

This is just an idea, made together by words. It's speculation on the unknowable, and nothing more than that.


Imagine how does God exist to you at least if your mental frame does keep it
God is your invention

God is perhaps our invention, more truly he is our awakening.


Oohhh, here's one to meditate on, Blaze: "You are that vast thing that you see far, far off with great telescopes." It's true!!!!!!!! :) The cosmos in your fingers.

[hellsapoppin]

I am ''God''???

Really?

We're having a late winter storm around here and I'll try to put a stop to it ...

{a few minutes later}

... nope, sorry, it didn't work. Looks like I am not a god after all.

[NikolaiI]

You always give up that easy? :D j/k

[kiz_paws]

For you are conditioned to a particular set of beliefs and you think within a box and can not dare to come out of it.

You are a prisoner of your surroundings, your relatives, your beliefs. Break the wall of the prison and see you will have a different and broad experience.
This is interesting and would not be harmful in the context of someone expanding their horizons to the good.

But: What about someone who is holding their basest instincts in check? Someone who will now unleash their most carnal self?

Don't mean to argue with you blaze, as you are a peaceful and deep thinking person that I very much respect. But that was the other side of the coin in the idea of 'letting oneself go' -- unless that is not what you were saying at all... :)

[NikolaiI]

This is interesting and would not be harmful in the context of someone expanding their horizons to the good.

But: What about someone who is holding their basest instincts in check? Someone who will now unleash their most carnal self?

Don't mean to argue with you blaze, as you are a peaceful and deep thinking person that I very much respect. But that was the other side of the coin in the idea of 'letting oneself go' -- unless that is not what you were saying at all... :)

Not to speak for Blaze, but I was thinking this earlier.

The way breaking through the barriers for me is by meditations-- quite simply, looking upwards, and the other eye movements and trances. Tai Chi allows us to feel, as oppose to think and interpret, and lets us simply be. Then we can experience the world on a more fundamental level- as an organism, in relation to our needs as an organism. As we practice these mind-expanding and body-healing techniques, we heal our organism. I am not saying that everyone is sick, I don't know anything about everyone, but I am sure that these movements are healing to the organism. I believe it's almost universal that certain self-contradictions create health problems- stress because of an unsettled mind, not being as relaxed as we should be- although relaxed in this case doesn't mean "inert" it means full of energy yet resting.

Alan Watts says something somewhere about "we can never stop changing" and how this is related to our growth. Indeed, we are always changing. So if we set our sights on good things, like fresh air, yoga, god, scriptures; we are brought upwards by these things. I'm sure that Blaze means being free of shackles in this meaning- directed towards the good by going with the change of things; following cues, and always learning more about our goal and ourselves along the way.

[NikolaiI]

I had another thought; I'll try to explain.

"God is you" does not mean you are god. It's sort of an inversion. To say "god is you" does not require what it might seem to- it does not require the normally understood existence of god. Whereas, to say that we exist because god is always keeping us manifest, or something like that, would mean that we need god to exist. The inversion, of saying that "god is you," means that god exists because we exist. Because I can have the conception of the supreme good, which as a single, pure, infinity links everything I see as good, he exists. Furthermore, he exists linking things together-- people, across time and space, and ideas.

This is what I was thinking and I just checked but I was right. Blaze is not saying "you are god," but that "god is you." He is a very deep thinker and this is not thoughtless, but accurate.

"You exist through god" is the more traditional understanding, that god created us, so on and so forth. But to say "god exists through you," is a deeper idea it seems. "The god your child has born."

[blazeofglory]

God is a subject that rocks our thoughts. Indeed it has generated lots of ideas. Our understanding of God is rooted in scriptural books or something we borrowed from our Gurus. The idea of is certainly limited to this idea and it does not go beyond this domain. Yet God is something more than this and of course God is more than this.

What I understand after deep meditation is God id not a different entity from us and the problem with us is one of understanding and once we understand or once we remove the veneer that hides the fact everything will be clear to us.

God to me can be any other things than a source of everything. It is the power that animates things. Indeed there arises too many skeptical questions respecting God. And of course we seem to be very skeptical about it and indeed we through our skepticisms may come to a state of materialism.

But materialistic philosophy has its own limitations and they can not see things beyond that limit. But it never means that if they fail to see things beyond the veneer it does not mean there is no deeper truth. Indeed truth to has layers. We have to find it out.

IN point of fact I believe that God is a source of energy and we must try to understand it. Having said so we try to rationalize it. Our pundits and philosophers try to philosophize God.

God is not what we take it to be through our persuasions through scriptures. God can nor be any attributes. I may sound rather enigmatic in my expressions. This is not through studies or pursuit of knowledge I have written these words but through mediation

You have indeed room for doubt. That is indeed your domain I do not trespass.

[Lote-Tree]

God is you.

The cosmos is you.

All you see around you is you.


This is Pantheism.

[islandclimber]

You are a prisoner of your surroundings, your relatives, your beliefs. Break the wall of the prison and see you will have a different and broad experience.

Your religions, your cultures, your upbringings are confining you within a narrow domain of your propensities.



God is you.

The cosmos is you.

All you see around you is you.

Nothing exists other than you in this universe. Everything that surrounds is you, and absolutely you. The sun is there to warm you, and the wind blows so that you can breathe.


This is interesting, could be termed egocentric by some... lol... but I don't think that is what is meant... by the way, noting similarities to something else... you haven't by chance read Dostoevsky's "Notes from the Underground" recently... some striking similarities in the thought processes...

now though, think that if we come to realize that we are god, and we are everything, then everything ceases to be, everything and nothing are all the same thing then, necessarily... for to become timeless and infinite, we pass out of temporal existence... so the human mind, while living cannot really comprehend this, for we have to have some idea of time and space, or else we are not living, for life and existence are dependent on time and space and definition.. once we realize that nothing and everything are the same, we realize we are all god... and god is us... but at the same time, we have no comprehension or real understanding, for this is outside the boundaries of human definition and form and ideas... we can only feel it, accept it...

so break down the wall... then realize that we can wait for death and escaping time and space and definition, or we can enjoy life and accept whatever comes regarding life and death.. for they are all the same.. nothing and everything...

[NikolaiI]

This is interesting, could be termed egocentric by some... lol... but I don't think that is what is meant... by the way, noting similarities to something else... you haven't by chance read Dostoevsky's "Notes from the Underground" recently... some striking similarities in the thought processes...

now though, think that if we come to realize that we are god, and we are everything, then everything ceases to be, everything and nothing are all the same thing then, necessarily... for to become timeless and infinite, we pass out of temporal existence... so the human mind, while living cannot really comprehend this, for we have to have some idea of time and space, or else we are not living, for life and existence are dependent on time and space and definition.. once we realize that nothing and everything are the same, we realize we are all god... and god is us... but at the same time, we have no comprehension or real understanding, for this is outside the boundaries of human definition and form and ideas... we can only feel it, accept it...

so break down the wall... then realize that we can wait for death and escaping time and space and definition, or we can enjoy life and accept whatever comes regarding life and death.. for they are all the same.. nothing and everything...

you explained it very well. :)

[islandclimber]

you explained it very well. :)

thank you *smile*

[blazeofglory]

Here I fee like communicating more with you now, for this subject of God is very intriguing.Indeed many a time this subject has left me restless immensely.

I have too many reasons to oppose the existence of God, and of course no syllologistic backings to enhdore this matter save faith.
However I cannot satisfy myself without rooting myself in the existence of
God or some source

Indeed there is some source from which life originates.

Do not distance yourself from that source, for you are the fountain and you are the river.

Indeed God is not a different entity than you.
There is a veneer that screens you from seeing God is hard by but we seek far.

Feel the blow of the wind there are voices of God.

[blazeofglory]

This is interesting, could be termed egocentric by some... lol... but I don't think that is what is meant... by the way, noting similarities to something else... you haven't by chance read Dostoevsky's "Notes from the Underground" recently... some striking similarities in the thought processes...

now though, think that if we come to realize that we are god, and we are everything, then everything ceases to be, everything and nothing are all the same thing then, necessarily... for to become timeless and infinite, we pass out of temporal existence... so the human mind, while living cannot really comprehend this, for we have to have some idea of time and space, or else we are not living, for life and existence are dependent on time and space and definition.. once we realize that nothing and everything are the same, we realize we are all god... and god is us... but at the same time, we have no comprehension or real understanding, for this is outside the boundaries of human definition and form and ideas... we can only feel it, accept it...

so break down the wall... then realize that we can wait for death and escaping time and space and definition, or we can enjoy life and accept whatever comes regarding life and death.. for they are all the same.. nothing and everything...

What we call God is to feel exactly as what you said to feel beyond the temporal and spatial limitations and ubdeed to feel at one with the universal spirit.

Indeed we are already here at one with the universal spirit, and the difference is one of unjhderstanding only.

In point of fact there is no disticntion at all. It is the sheer lack of understanding which smoke-screens us from our real source.
We are manifestations of the mystery, and once we realize we can go beyond the manifestation and mystery in point of fact. Both states are illusive and we need to realize this fact to attain Nirvana or Mokcchya.

[NikolaiI]

my idea is that god is the assurance that in the end, it will all be alright. god is infinite love, and possibility, which breaks down all barriers and ultimately always triumphs over evil. transcendence is that feeling that we have broken out of the shell of our former existence, in many different ways, broken out of ignorance, desire, hate; and who, once they've broken free, would wish to return? - this was something plato said, in more or less, and other words. ;)

god is the end result, the beginning, the unborn; that which we will return to. in the end, we are not affected.

recently dostoyevsky has risen to new heights of my respect; his writing's of father zosima's words are very inspiring and true, i believe. i find it very interesting; sometimes you'll see an author give a whole paragraph (hm) about something-- they'll say "this and this limits us, you see, it's like this and this, and we're separated, we're separated-- you see, we can't link up experiences..." and as soon as this happens i have to put the brakes on it...that is...not believe them, because it's contrary to what i know.

what zosima says rings true; and i think about what it means to exist; to be conscious, to live, to believe; to have thoughts and ideas; all of these things we control. zosima says in the beginning man was created from love, and at first he thought "i am and i love" but then he gave this up, and this is the source of his misery. so the most important thing is to not give that up. it seems there are two main ways of looking at the world: with awe and optimism, or with cynicism and despair. we see all these others, we see them interact, and we are interested; what do they see, what do they feel? emerson says great souls are rare, yet the paradox is we should expect them to be common, because they are. that is-- not to be limited by preconceptions, or misapprehensions, or misunderstandings, limiting judgements; prejudgements, things of this nature. to have an open mind so we can learn from others.

as to what blazeofglory writes; basically i believe it's true. what i know is so very second and third hand. i know things by possibility and assurance, and possibilites of possibilities. to say that i am the source, that we all are, as blaze says; that we are only separated by our misconceptions, and lack of understanding, rings true to me. recently i've opened up new doors which break down misunderstandings so i can see myself more truly; and new doors of practice which connect me to a previously unknown source of energy, health, blessing, and vitality. emerson writes, "We are often made to feel that there is another youth and age than that which is measured from the year of our natural birth. Some thoughts always find us young, and keep us so. Such a thought is the love of the universal and eternal beauty." (http://www.emersoncentral.com/oversoul.htm)

this is what i try to express, yet in my failed ability to express, i offend someone, and clash so briefly with them yet become so entrench an enemy. i am called self-deluded, although i know that attachment to ideas that create anger and hostility is delusion; the only thing i know is true, more than anything else, is the direction of truth from my current position, and the direction toward "the darkest place possible to go to." and truth; reality, which i know i do not exprience clear-visioned, is that which exists when everything else fades; is that which becomes visible when i do not see with any obstructions, when i set down rigidity, thought-patterns, conditioning. further, when i focus in meditation on this source-- which blaze affirms is where my true being is located-- i find that it rejuves the deepest part of me, and from there upward. this is why i believe in god.

[islandclimber]

What we call God is to feel exactly as what you said to feel beyond the temporal and spatial limitations and ubdeed to feel at one with the universal spirit.

Indeed we are already here at one with the universal spirit, and the difference is one of unjhderstanding only.

In point of fact there is no disticntion at all. It is the sheer lack of understanding which smoke-screens us from our real source.
We are manifestations of the mystery, and once we realize we can go beyond the manifestation and mystery in point of fact. Both states are illusive and we need to realize this fact to attain Nirvana or Mokcchya.


yes and just as Kirillov states in Dostoevsky's "the devils" we can't become god, can't be truly free until we realize it is all the same whether we live or die... we can say we understand the universal spirit, being out of time, beyond definition, but I have to say again, putting any sort of definition or human understanding to this, is impossible... you cannot give timeless, infinite, eternal, nothing, everything, existence, non-existence definition, even the words we use to describe our ideas of them are false...

the only thing we can do is feel and be at one with the universal spirit as you put it.. I believe to have complete faith in it.. for I think you mentioned doubt above as being what holds us back from this.. and I agree... doubt stops us from reaching nirvana, or mokcchya, or god, or whatever you want to call it... only once we can have complete and total faith, without having to understand or comprehend because we never will, only than can we be free and you could say enlightened...

cheers

[blazeofglory]

Life is so uncertain, and in fact no moments are completely insulated from danger. Every step is not without some kind of danger.

Man's life is full of stress and anxieties. Large numbers of people die of starvation and some others of diseases. There are accidents, wars, and calamaties. All these hard facts attribute to the fact that life is not immune from perils

Doubt indeed arises in such predicaments. In such situations man becomes completely skeptical at times.

I am by nature a believer. I am amazed at everything I see. Nature is indeed very amazing. Man is nature's wonderful creation. I feel really glorified over everything I see around. But when I see growing numbers of violence and people are becoming more and more self centered. Indeed when we undergo cirmcumstances like this we become doubtlelssly skeptical.

Yet somewhere deep down I am so much inclined to belieive that something is there that rules over us.

I do not subscribe to the mythical notion of God, or some god figures. Yet at the deepest level of me something remains strongly rooted.

I want here your arguments for and against the existence of God. That buttresses the belief entrenched within me.

[NikolaiI]

I've become aware recently of some of the different levels of this being we are entangled in. One implication, Blaze, of what you say "We are what we see"-- am I correct in this?-- is that, well, you know, we are both greater and more limited than we think. We are greater and have a greater potential, yet we are more limited; so we have ideas, wonderful, but we can't get higher than those in our society, "external" but actually no different than we ourselves. Or in a less abstract way-- someone insults us and ruins us both. Just completely ruins. After this our thoughts are always attracted to it-- and there is no possible resolution in fact, of the conflict, because any attempt will always be put in the worst light, and every word spoken in the pursuit of reconciliation will only arise more disgust. Although, if I saw someone speaking like this, while I would understand them, it also would disgust me, as it always does when I see someone speaking of their limitations. It is just one level of the entanglement. This is a greater danger, to me, Blaze. To become entangled; like a brute, beaten, bludgeoned, senseless; what I see, what I see in glorious brilliance, outshining everything, is beautiful, beautiful and saintly truth, and I only see it barely, just barely, but I know it's true. I know what we learn has value.

So, to sum it up shortly, hopefully, the two things which have captured my attention are one, that everything will be alright, and two, a little more of the way and method that it will be; and this one I really can't explain in words. It's just a leap. Watts says, faith is trusting yourself in the water; you don't grab onto it, you'll lose it then. You just relax. So I feel like I am grabbed, attacked, and the hardest thing but that which I must do, is let go, forgive...because it seems like there are opposites, and that they are so greatly apart from each other. It's either so good, or so bad; and when you're insulted, then the insult is usually meant to crush. There are so many levels of being. So many different, differently acknowledge realities; some which are total war, some which are peaceful, and of the peaceful, there are those with many different shared understandings and realities. In some peaceful realities, the war has broken through and drifted over, so that spiritual insights come only as a violent flash, or, as they say, "The highest truth of suffering."-- and in these realities, sadly, truth and beauty are submerged, and the prophet or mystic is never able to put an expression to his madness, to his truth, and probably, he is a false prophet anyway...the truth is so odd, it is so true, and yet, you would never see it because you would always just be more practical than that. The truth says "Such." and we say, "Eh? I missed that." Because it's not our langauge. We don't speak the language of raindrops-- yet sometimes we do, sometimes we feel so connected, and we feel like, though we can't express it, that something more, that, we feel, we know, its language we speak, as we always have.

So the way I approach this is twofold. On the one hand, trusting myself in the water, this "more" that I know, the other language which I speak-- I trust that it's real. The other side is trying to approach it, create it, capture it, understand it, explain it, only to record it, so that it isn't lost. The best way I have for this now are just that it's unlimited, that there's this "more," but the way to become aware of these differentiated levels of being is to learn to speak the language, perhaps, that of love; or that of truth or beauty, of trust; these are just words; the main idea is that there is meaning, there is more, I speak and it's just words, yet I believe it's so much more true to say there is more to life than less. Affirming life creates more reason for it to be affirmed. Nietzsche saw this. He did.

[blazeofglory]

I racked my brans many a time respecting God, for I am always uncertain. All I want to be here is open to you or I will put my inside out, the way I am, very expressly indeed.

Onething that intrigues me is the mysteriousness of the universe despite the fact that I have a thousand answers to the question. Yet none of these answers, metaphyscial or scientific satisfies me and of course for that matter I like to cajole you to put your opinions so that i can arrive truth.

But I am unsure. However to undertake the journey is really exciting.

I just feel at home with you.

[kiz_paws]

We don't speak the language of raindrops-- yet sometimes we do, sometimes we feel so connected, and we feel like, though we can't express it, that something more, that, we feel, we know, its language we speak, as we always have.How beautiful. Well put, Nik! :thumbs_up

[Morten]

A lot of vague expressions are being thrown around in this discussion that I, professedly a non-believer, don't much care for. Will someone please explain to me what is meant by "infinite love", "universal spirit", and how "God" intends to "conquer evil".

[blazeofglory]

Love is a quiver that comes out of bodily or emotional attachements or attraction nothing remains of it beyond this as a matter of fact.

Love as we see generally, if it is parental is much reliable and lasting and the love that comes out of physical attractions are really temporal and that is why there are cases of divorces, separations when certain demands are unfulfilled.

Despite the fact that there cases of tragedies and women and men at times seem to have sacrificed their lives, that happened impulsively, and in reality love if is out physical or bodily attractions are indeed tempral.

[NikolaiI]

I racked my brans many a time respecting God, for I am always uncertain. All I want to be here is open to you or I will put my inside out, the way I am, very expressly indeed.

Onething that intrigues me is the mysteriousness of the universe despite the fact that I have a thousand answers to the question. Yet none of these answers, metaphyscial or scientific satisfies me and of course for that matter I like to cajole you to put your opinions so that i can arrive truth.

But I am unsure. However to undertake the journey is really exciting.

I just feel at home with you.

Inside out- ew! Just kidding.

"I just feel at home with you."

Thanks, dear friend.

Blaze I ponder these questions all day. I've been attempting to compose this in my head this evening, so I will attempt to state it as clearly as possible here.

What I've experienced of late, among the myriad of different feelings, is the prevalent feeling that the transcendental platform is merely a part of this. Yet I feel that when we break free of Maya, and are situated in transcendence, we are connected to a more authentic being. I understand that mystical experience is an authentic mode of revelation and that yoga is an authentic path to authentic being. I apologize for using authentic so many times. In reading something like the Gita, however, you see it as well. The purports of A.C. Bhaktivedenta Swami Prabhupada repeat themselves sometimes, always with different shades. Other ways to put what I mean are that meditation is the instant connection to transcendence, trance is too, and the method of non-attachment; and these things relieve us of our burden, that is, our bewilderment. So this is why I feel at home with you too.

Sincerely yours,
with deep respect,
Nikolai

[B-Mental]

I am a prisoner of my relatives. Its called Honor Thy Father and Mother!

[blazeofglory]

I am a prisoner of my relatives. Its called Honor Thy Father and Mother!

No, B-Mental, you are not a prisoner of your parents or relatives, for all your demeanors are at your will.

In fact all of us are as a matter of fact interconnected.

[Morten]

Love as we see generally, if it is parental is much reliable and lasting and the love that comes out of physical attractions are really temporal and that is why there are cases of divorces, separations when certain demands are unfulfilled.

Despite the fact that there cases of tragedies and women and men at times seem to have sacrificed their lives, that happened impulsively, and in reality love if is out physical or bodily attractions are indeed tempral.

I think reasons for divorce are more complicated than being results of "temporal love". I still think you are being vague.

[blazeofglory]

[QUOTE=NikolaiI;534677]Inside out- ew! Just kidding.

"I just feel at home with you."

Thanks, dear friend.

Blaze I ponder these questions all day. I've been attempting to compose this in my head this evening, so I will attempt to state it as clearly as possible here.

What I've experienced of late, among the myriad of different feelings, is the prevalent feeling that the transcendental platform is merely a part of this. Yet I feel that when we break free of Maya, and are situated in transcendence, we are connected to a more authentic being. I understand that mystical experience is an authentic mode of revelation and that yoga is an authentic path to authentic being. I apologize for using authentic so many times. In reading something like the Gita, however, you see it as well. The purports of A.C. Bhaktivedenta Swami Prabhupada repeat themselves sometimes, always with different shades. Other ways to put what I mean are that meditation is the instant connection to transcendence, trance is too, and the method of non-attachment; and these things relieve us of our burden, that is, our bewilderment. So this is why I feel at home with you too.

Sincerely yours,
with deep respect,
Nikolai[/QUOTE
I am really happy to read your posts and responses. Being in touch with you for long and going through all that you wrote I have something, of course some notions that you have a great pining for knowing truth, the truth respecting the universe, and of cocurse our relationship with it.

Indeed there is something in you, a great yearning for eternity. That is why you often write here about the Gita.

I am also hellbent on all these notions.

As a friend I want to share something very precious with you. Once when I was a child I used to read the Shreemad Bhagabatam by Byasa. I bet this sacred text is unbeatable.

I read it many times. I know a bit of the Sanskrit langauge. Today I know a little English. I am amazed to find some of the European languages borrwing words from Sanskrit.

This is not my sentiment. In fact I beleive in humanity, not in nationality, in spirituality not in religions, not in any particualr languages but the one that links alla. Yet Sanskrit is such a beautiful language that it is incomparable.

If possible as a dear friend I suggest you learn Sanskrit. I know you will like it.

[B-Mental]

No, B-Mental, you are not a prisoner of your parents or relatives, for all your demeanors are at your will.

In fact all of us are as a matter of fact interconnected.

I know what you mean, but I am the caretaker of my family. I watch over my mother the way my father would. It is an obligation of love, and I will carry it as long as I live or can manage to. Peace be to you man of wisdom that is Blaseofglory!

[Morten]

In fact all of us are as a matter of fact interconnected.

"In fact"? And where, pray, is the factual evidence for this?

[B-Mental]

The sequence of DNA. Does that not answer your question Morten...? Why must you ask such an obvious question....Do you not believe in something?

[Morten]

The sequence of DNA. Does that not answer your question Morten...? Why must you ask such an obvious question....Do you not believe in something?

In light of the spirituality of this discussion so far, I doubt he was alluding to DNA. Which doesn't "interconnect" us, by the way. If so, you could say the same of many of other physical and biological attributes that we share.

Of course, since I'm not religious I simply don't believe in anything, right? Must you ask such an ignorant question? It's a grave misconception that you can only believe in God, Gods or some form of vague and elusive concept of spirituality or higher being. In The Myth of Sisyphus, Camus argued for belief in this life, the one that for all we know is the only one we ever live. To live for the sake of the illusions of another life is to betray ourselves and our existence, to committ "philosophical suicide", as he put it.

[NikolaiI]

And others say that to turn your back on God is the biggest mistake-- well, neither one is right for everyone, obviously.

Interdependence is a concept of Buddhism.

[blazeofglory]

And others say that to turn your back on God is the biggest mistake-- well, neither one is right for everyone, obviously.

Interdependence is a concept of Buddhism.

All of us are innately connected as a matter of fact. There are links seen or unseen. As all of us are spatially or organically one and this interdepedence is whart we need to understand and this is indeed a path towards spirituality.

If we fully understand these unseen links, temprally and spatially there will be no friction among us, and we will not fight violantly the way we do now.

We earthlings are all rooted in the earth, and the earth is our mother as such anything we need we suck from the earth the way little ones suck their mother's breast.

I meditate everyday on this truth and the more I do so the more I find myslef closer to this fact.
I feel every one is my brother and sister.

Maybe I am self-asserting. But I feel like sharing with all of you.

Basically, as I feel, there is no difference between me and you, and maybe we behave a little differently outwardly but deep down at the core we are not different. This I feel through deep thinking but I do not say I am right.

Maybe this is Buddha nature.

[NikolaiI]

Your words are wise and I would advise you to write as much as you can-- poetry, essays, articles; you have a great gift for understanding and appreciation, it is refreshing to meet someone with your intellect.

All day I think about different ideas, concepts; the ideas that are the foundation of my thinking. I have many, and many that I cannot put down into words. Studying the Gita is good, but I don't spend all my time on that. What I study is not of much importance; I only mention it, for how it relates to the ideas. There are certain ideas in religions, like interdependence, which is a concept in Buddhism, which it is useful to study; and Krishna consciousness in Hinduism. These concepts are very useful to get a hold of, and it's wonderful even to see some kind of parallel between a passage in Dostoevsky about God in the Gita-- about seeking God or some such.

So there are different ideas, such as interdependence, non-duality, Krishna consciousness, Maya, Nirvana, that sort of drift to the top of the pile. What do they mean? Why is it they seem universal? What's their value? I think that we can learn a lot by meditating on them; but this I know for complete certainty. I know beyond doubt at least some awareness of the existence of these different layers of being. The dhammapada is wonderful, I also take a lot of my grains from the songs of Milarepa, and those ideas are well-familiar to me as well.

I was just thinking, I remember some one or more than one person talking about how Buddhism has no gods, and that the Buddha didn't want to be worshipped, and these advocates were very adamant about this, and it seemed they thought it very important. But then I read A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada write that the Buddha was an incarnation of Krishna! I know it's important always to keep an open mind-- such is the clear nature of revelation and self-realization. One thing that is clear to me is that self-realization is a state of consciousness; but it's something that we must make for ourselves. If we do not actively sustain our consciousness and awareness, then there is every chance that it will submerge into negligence. I'm also aware that there are states which allow us to be aware and conscious, to if not actually be on the transcendental platform, at least be aware of it...

one of these, or, that is, something related, is for instance the verse in the dhammapada "There are those who realize that we are always facing death. Knowing this, they set aside all contentiousness." I think of this during the day, and I sort of experience its meaning-- of course its words we understand intellectually, but there is something special about it too, a way that the words describe the actual state of things.

A question I wish to raise about bardo, and the state of life we're in now. Self-realization has a lot to it, and it's described in the Gita. It's just a term. I believe there are actual states of realization which have to do with perceiving the illusion, integrated with compassion. Or something-- it's hard to describe. I wonder what reality is. I am convinced there is something more-- not in an afterlife in heaven, although I'm fairly sure of the existence of heaven, I am just unsure about the eternal life of it-- but always it comes back to the reality that there's a more true reality, a more real being, and there's higher knowledge-- when we meet and interact with people, everything, the vast paradigms are all in our communication, and there's lots of information which is shared, and in this, is everything we know...at least it always comes back to this-- to the communication and sharing of these paradigms.

Anyway interdependence is...it's been a while since I've read about it. We're part of the same thing-- and so I, as I am, cannot exist without you, which cannot exist as you are, without me, so on and so forth. But what is the use of focusing on this, really? I don't know- we could explain it like, I know someone who knows someone who...etc... knows you. And this is understood. Maybe it means nothing-- who knows. I'm focusing on other things right now... but...anyway.

[Morten]

All of us are innately connected as a matter of fact. There are links seen or unseen. As all of us are spatially or organically one and this interdepedence is whart we need to understand and this is indeed a path towards spirituality.If we fully understand these unseen links, temprally and spatially there will be no friction among us, and we will not fight violantly the way we do now.

This is such a cliché. First of all, where are these facts? How do you support them? The reasons for us "fighting violently" is so deeply embedded into human nature and historical events that to claim it is caused by our inability to accept our interconnectedness is an enormous intellectual cop-out and an over simplification of something far more complex.

There is an astonishing lack of critical thought in what you have shared. And don't let's get offended or anything. You are making very bold statements about our existence and our nature and it is only right that you should support with something a little more weighty than vague concepts of spirituality.

[Morten]

Your words are wise and I would advise you to write as much as you can-- poetry, essays, articles; you have a great gift for understanding and appreciation, it is refreshing to meet someone with your intellect.

Or lack thereof. No, there is nothing intellectual about what he is saying. Quite the contrary; there is an astonishing lack of critical and rational thought and a grave simplification of the complexities of human nature, psychology and history. Use your common sense.

And there exists plenty of articles, essays, even easy-to-comprehend tapes about what he has stated.

[NikolaiI]

Words are a very weak mode of communication. The physical act of writing is very sluggish compared to mental processes, and many of us do not even think in words. When you get in an argument, it's going to be basically impossible to get anything across, to share anything, and if there is no respect or mutual desire for learning, nothing productive or constructive could possibly be achieved.

The human positive potential is like a field of grass, made up of all the diffuse thoughts, reasoning, experiences, joys, sadness, a person has felt. Every person has such value, such valuable insights to contribute; it's only fear of ugly confrontation that keeps us silent and earth-bound. Who would want to stand up and take the blunt of scorn? Many people agree that it's not about winning, that it's not about better or worse, putting down, but then is this not another competition? "I am more humble than you!" It doesn't work.

As to what "intellect" is, you and I have different understandings.

You perhaps, view Western psychology as a good science. However, in Tibet, for instance, there is a Kagyu lineage which goes back to and before the original five; and of them, Milarepa, for instance, was a great sage. You can't learn this without an open mind, however.

Blaze says "maybe this is Buddha nature." He is correct. What you think is a grave over-simplification is actually a light-hearted wisdom. The deepest knowledge of myself that I know is that for one, the path I detect as good is the right one...I know this will not come across-- it's not the words but their meaning which I mean. Secondly, it's when you let go.

[Morten]

Words are a very weak mode of communication. The physical act of writing is very sluggish compared to mental processes, and many of us do not even think in words. When you get in an argument, it's going to be basically impossible to get anything across, to share anything, and if there is no respect or mutual desire for learning, nothing productive or constructive could possibly be achieved.
So you cannot, in words, support the claims you make in words? I'm willing to "learn" here, that is why I'm arguing with you.

You can't learn this without an open mind, however.
Au contraire, I'm very open-minded. Which is why I'm being so critical of your beliefs. My criticisms, by the way, have been left unanswered.

[NikolaiI]

Your "criticism" was that there was an "astonishing lack of of rational thought" in my friend's post. This doesn't need to be "addressed," it speaks for itself, however. To say something like this is disingenuous, and doesn't inspire me to any confidence you won't say the same thing to me, nor wish to discuss things with you, however open-minded and willing to learn you claim to be.

[Morten]

Your "criticism" was that there was an "astonishing lack of of rational thought" in my friend's post. This doesn't need to be "addressed," it speaks for itself, however. To say something like this is disingenuous, and doesn't inspire me to any confidence you won't say the same thing to me, nor wish to discuss things with you, however open-minded and willing to learn you claim to be.

Let me rephrase a question then:

Enlighten me, as to how it is "wise" to say that the reasons for violence are due to our lack of understanding for our supposed interconnectidness and how, in turn, embracing this spritiual link would end this violence.

[blazeofglory]

This is such a cliché. First of all, where are these facts? How do you support them?
There is an astonishing lack of critical thought in what you have shared. And don't let's get offended or anything. You are making very bold statements about our existence and our nature and it is only right that you should support with something a little more weighty than vague concepts of spirituality.

Morten I agree wirh you totally, and of course unservedly. All that I said were said already a thousand and one times, and this not new. I feel you are helping me understand things.

Spirituality is a domain, maybe the only domain we can turn to, to find answers to our many questions in life. We do know manythings respecting existence.

Human life is so short-lived, tempral and we do know anything about it, and of course the reasons as to why we are here, and science can not define things beyond a limit.

We all seek a meaning and we are not satisfied with the fact that we will depart and after that everything is finsihed off and nothing remains of us

All of us are a little surprised at everything we see, the flowers in our garden, the birds singing in the trees, the multi-cololred butterflies, the fountains flowind down the green mountains. And of course when a mother sees a new baby see feels rapturous, and her joys become boundless. Her love is not delimited by the fact that man is mortal. She indeed transcends all limits of pettiness, mortality, diseases and the possibility that she will be constricated within the grasp of death and destrution.

Why all this happens in point of fact? There is indeed something that goes beyond spatial and temporal dimensions. If there is no something that transcends or permeates limits of death and destruction.

These are the facts, dear Morten that make me think differently and go beyond the seen and the obvious. I live with these thoughts. I am poor at writing and expressing, for English is my second language. Anyway I try to remove cliches in my writings.

[NikolaiI]

Let me rephrase a question then:

Enlighten me, as to how it is "wise" to say that the reasons for violence are due to our lack of understanding for our supposed interconnectidness and how, in turn, embracing this spritiual link would end this violence.

When we cut ourselves, we put a bandage on it automatically. We should help others just as automatically.

[Morten]

When we cut ourselves, we put a bandage on it automatically. We should help others just as automatically.

That doen't answer my question.

And your analogy is ridiculous. Cutting ourselves is a simple act; you have a knife in our hand and you accidentally slice your finger. You put bandage on it. Cause and effect. This can hardly be applied to the wounds of humanity that run deep into the pages of history and to which is not always easy to attribute a cause. Again: over-simplification.

[NikolaiI]

Originally Posted by weepingforloman View Post
I would just like to comment that the only real difference between this particular aspect of Buddhism and Christ's discourse on loving one's neighbor is the separateness of souls. Buddhism wipes away the difference (I'm not sure, but I believe some Buddhist groups still use the term Brahman for the Universal Soul), and Christianity emphasizes it, making the sacrifice of one's own interests the primary point of morality. I just thought I'd point out how similar they are, on this point at least.


Yes...Buddhists don't think any of us are seperate from any other. So the Christian doctrine is to love your neighbour, but this can be hard if you see your neighbour as someone differenent from yourself, and it introduces complications that aren't necessary, that are in fact a distortion of reality and leave us feeling disoriented. You may like or dislike your neighbour, and you may treat him with respect out of duty, but if you're not thinking about your neighbour as being seperate from yourself then you would help them as automatically as you would yourself. And one part of it is realizing this theoretically, and the other part is the practice of zazen to help realize it fully, etc. I mostly get this view and idea from my limited recent exposure to dharma and dharma talks on youtube, though I read a couple books on Buddhism a few years ago, was really into it then, and then read a great book on zen, but it's always good to keep in touch and ideas fresh, and practice, etc...

But this is going off-topic. If you wish to continue this debate, please can we do it on the thread a little lower on the philo page "I am you: division is illusion"?

[City Of Dreams]

Men are the only true Gods because we are blessed (pun, ha ha) with the ability to create. With this comes that cursed responsibility to watch our creations, which led us into environmental disputes, endangered species, and the energy crisis. But think about what defines God for you, definitely different from someone else. The stone aged freaks had a powerful God who had the ability to punish them no matter how hard they tried to flee. This bound them to the 10 commandments, because nobody wanted to piss off the big boss.

[thom]

'to grow but not to control, that is the mysterious virtue.' :yawnb: