Patriotism

[Bakiryu]

Hello all!

I've an essay due Friday about patriotism. There's just one problem I don't understand it! How can you love a place you because you were born in it?

Can you help me?

Just talk about what patriotism means to you, and such.

(and no, I'm not asking you to do my essay for me, just talk about it's meaning relating to you)

THANK YOU!

♥Jin

[Virgil]

What patriotism means to me is a love for my fellow countrymen, an appreciation for the life the country has provided me, and an identity for which I identify with and has made me who I am. Patriotism is an undertanding of inherently who I am. Patriotism is linked to self love.

[Dori]

How can you love a place because you were born in it?! It's not so much as loving the place (geographically-speaking) as it is loving the nation (the achievements, the people, the language, etc.). People are proud of their nation's achievements and what it stands for.

Wikipedia does a better job at explaining this:

"Patriotism covers such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation."

A good example of a patriotic person is Walt Whitman. He wrote, in the Preface to the 1855 edition of Leaves of Grass:

"The Americans of all nations at any time upon the earth have probably the fullest poetical nature. The United States themselves are essentially the greatest poem..."

You can consider me a watered-down Whitman in reference to patriotism. :D

I would speak more of this, but it is getting late. Perhaps another day.

[Silvia]

Patriotism is linked to self love
I agree with this, and I wolud add that patriotism is also linked to love and respect towards others.
Mazzini (and he really loved Italy) once said: "Adoro la mia patria, perchè adoro la Patria; la nostra libertà, perch'io credo nella Libertà; i nostri diritti, perch'io credo nel Diritto"
"I love my country, because I love the Country; our freedom, because I believe in Freedom; our rights, because I believe in the Law"

[SleepyWitch]

:sick: sorry I can't relate to patriotism at all

[Lote-Tree]

Patriotism is a Tribalism.

But I am Tribal too! It is just that my Tribe includes whole of humanity!

[mercy_mankind]

patriotism is a one word but it has a lot of meanings .
when I was a child i thought that patriotism is something must be in the old Arabian films:) (old fashion) , but nowadays , I realized that word , while seeing people in another country come to say a poems in my country , not only poems but they said if they had had the choice they would have chosen my country ...
I saw people don't have anything , and they love their country ,
Why? because this is their country , I saw people dyeing every day
Why? because of their land .
For example . What makes you love your home and while leaving it you starts crying ?
that is because it is the place you where you lived all your life , you cried in this room , and laughed on that one . you played here , your neighbours , your friends , your relatives , your life , every thing good or bad was their .

[Virgil]

:sick: sorry I can't relate to patriotism at all

So is that self hatred?

[SleepyWitch]

So is that self hatred?

nope. not at all.
I don't hate myself, or my country, for that matter.
but in my opinion (that's only my personal opinion), you can only be proud of your own achievements, not of those of others (e.g. your country etc). you can't choose were you get born. if you happen to be born in a prosperous, innovative, etc. country, you can consider yourself lucky, but it's not something people can/should be proud of in the same way they are proud of their own achievements.

[B-Mental]

Really, patriotism, is love. A true patriot wants to come home and love the woman of his dreams, and his family wants him to come home too. He leads men into HELL and they all come back, dead or alive.


I'm speaking from a male point of view, but I really like Sleepywitch's definition. Oh, I was in West Germany when the wall came down, for all 3 years of it! I love Germany.

[Lote-Tree]

nope. not at all.
I don't hate myself, or my country, for that matter.
but in my opinion (that's only my personal opinion), you can only be proud of your own achievements, not of those of others (e.g. your country etc). you can't choose were you get born. if you happen to be born in a prosperous, innovative, etc. country, you can consider yourself lucky, but it's not something people can/should be proud of in the same way they are proud of their own achievements.

Good point Sleepy The Witch. Does that mean that we can't be Proud of our Parents? because that too is accident of Birth?



Patriotism is an undertanding of inherently who I am.


You are a human being that is not enough? :D

Virgil would be human any country?




Patriotism is linked to self love.

Egotism as the Axial Age Sages pointed out is the cause of so much suffering in the world.

[papayahed]

nope. not at all.
I don't hate myself, or my country, for that matter.
but in my opinion (that's only my personal opinion), you can only be proud of your own achievements, not of those of others (e.g. your country etc). you can't choose were you get born. if you happen to be born in a prosperous, innovative, etc. country, you can consider yourself lucky, but it's not something people can/should be proud of in the same way they are proud of their own achievements.

I don't necessarily think patriotism = proud. To me patriotism is a sort of kinship, being a part of something bigger then yourself.

[kilted exile]

I pretty much agree with Virg, however with one part I dont think he has mentioned - to me patriotism includes wanting your country to strive to improve,admit there are faults in the past (like with every country) but still attempt and be the greatest place to be. As an example I love Scotland with every fibre of my being - but I am by no means content with the amount of social problems therein.

[Virgil]

nope. not at all.
I don't hate myself, or my country, for that matter.
but in my opinion (that's only my personal opinion), you can only be proud of your own achievements, not of those of others (e.g. your country etc).
Well, that wasn't my definition. You're Krout Conspiracy thread seems patriotic to me, and nobly so.


you can't choose were you get born.
You can't choose where you were born, but you're made up of where you live and have grown up.


if you happen to be born in a prosperous, innovative, etc. country, you can consider yourself lucky, but it's not something people can/should be proud of in the same way they are proud of their own achievements.
Every culture has something to be proud of. Every culture has built art and music and cuisine and games and society with its own distinct identity. I would expect cave men from Mars to be proud of their identity. This doesn't mean that one supports one's country's decisions without reflection. One can and should dissent from things one disagrees with. What bugs me sometimes is the manner at which some people dissent. When dissent accuses one's fellow countrymen of evil or malicious motives, then I think it does become unpatriotic. One can dissent but one must understand that others see things differently.

[Niamh]

For me it is the love of ones country, history and nationality. I'm very proud to be Irish.

[B-Mental]

Yeah, and I am too Niamh...3rd Generation American on my Irish side.

[Lote-Tree]

As an example I love Scotland with every fibre of my being


I always found this kind of notions very strange.

Scotland like Babylon, like Uruk, Kish, Sumaria are only passing constructs, a mere transicence in flow of history.


I'm very proud to be Irish.

But why?

[Virgil]

I pretty much agree with Virg, however with one part I dont think he has mentioned - to me patriotism includes wanting your country to strive to improve,admit there are faults in the past (like with every country) but still attempt and be the greatest place to be. As an example I love Scotland with every fibre of my being - but I am by no means content with the amount of social problems therein.

Absolutely! Good point.

[mercy_mankind]

Every culture has something to be proud of. Every culture has built art and music and cuisine and games and society with its own distinct identity. I would expect cave men from Mars to be proud of their identity. This doesn't mean that one supports one's country's decisions without reflection. One can and should dissent from things one disagrees with. What bugs me sometimes is the manner at which some people dissent. When dissent accuses one's fellow countrymen of evil or malicious motives, then I think it does become unpatriotic. One can dissent but one must understand that others see things differently.

Patriotism is not only Pride
Patriotism = Giving.
Give your country without waiting to take .

[kilted exile]

I always found this kind of notions very strange.

But Scotland like Babylon, like Uruk, Kish, Sumaria are only passing constructs, a mere transicence in flow of history.

It may not be consistently called Scotland through history (though short of an apocolypse it will be till the end of time) but the land is there the culture is still impacted by the celts, picts & norsemen. Scotland just gives me the feeling of belonging every time I am there. It is not something describable but it is realler than any emotion I have ever encountered

[Virgil]

You are a human being that is not enough? :D

Virgil would be human any country?

:lol: Some people don't consider me human at all. :alien: :D


Egotism as the Axial Age Sages pointed out is the cause of so much suffering in the world.
Oh I agree with that. I think he meant it in terms of dealing with people and loved ones. Being self-centered.

[B-Mental]

But why?

Lote Tree, only you would ask the Irish such a question....they are the druidic tree huggers of legend past, mythic is the Emerald Isle! Oh wait, you are Lote Tree, the Mythic tree of renewal? I am Sequoia, the largest trees in any forest, and Lote....Ireland was my home.

[Virgil]

Patriotism is not only Pride
Patriotism = Giving.
Give your country without waiting to take .

Another good point.

[Lote-Tree]

It may not be consistently called Scotland through history (though short of an apocolypse it will be till the end of time)


It was not called anything in the past.



but the land is there the culture is still impacted by the celts, picts & norsemen.


Culture is also just a human construct. Again mere transience in flow of history.


:lol: Some people don't consider me human at all. :alien: :D


Well when you say things like Patriotism is Love I can understand why? :D

But you will still be human to me ;-)


Lote Tree, only you would ask the Irish such a question....they are the druidic tree huggers of legend past, mythic is the Emerald Isle! Oh wait, you are Lote Tree, the Mythic tree of renewal? I am Sequoia, the largest trees in any forest, and Lote....Ireland was my home.

But I Embrace All Trees...regardless if it grows in Ireland or not :D

[B-Mental]

ditto

[Virgil]

Culture is also just a human construct. Again mere transience in flow of history.

Yeah, but we as individuals are transcents in the flow of history. We are where and when we are. (God, I'm beginning to sound like Nicolai, :p )

[kilted exile]

Perhaps in the very beginning it was not called anything but it has populated since around 7000 BC and the remnants of that society still have impact on the Scottish culture (albeit limited). I'm not sure I'd call that transient.

Culture is different in different places, there are aspects of Scottish culture anyone outside of Scotland (except maybe some Irish) would have difficulty understanding.

[B-Mental]

The most patriotic thing is the French Foreign Legion....names like Lafayette, Lajollette, Marquette, the voyageurs, pretty cool to me.

If I were Baki, I'd just point at this entry and say, "I did my homework! See!"

[Lote-Tree]

Perhaps in the very beginning it was not called anything but it has populated since around 7000 BC and the remnants of that society still have impact on the Scottish culture (albeit limited). I'm not sure I'd call that transient.


And in time those "Remants" will dissappear just like the Sumerians...a mere transcience in the flow of history...

[papayahed]

And in time those "Remants" will dissappear just like the Sumerians...a mere transcience in the flow of history...


Ahh yes, but during kilted's time on this earth he is able to say "I am part of that history". So while it is transcient in the bigger picture I'd have to say it is permanent enough for humans.

[Niamh]

Yeah, and I am too Niamh...3rd Generation American on my Irish side.
:p

But why?


Lote Tree, only you would ask the Irish such a question....they are the druidic tree huggers of legend past, mythic is the Emerald Isle! Oh wait, you are Lote Tree, the Mythic tree of renewal? I am Sequoia, the largest trees in any forest, and Lote....Ireland was my home.
Dont know about the tree hugging but but there is something about Ireland that imbeds in to your spirit. The more i open my eyes to my country, its beauty, culture and way of life, the more i become a part of it. But as Kilted pointed out about scotland, although i love my country and am proud of it, there are some aspects that make me unhappy. But these things are becoming quite universal, and therefore dont think of them in just my country.

Perhaps in the very beginning it was not called anything but it has populated since around 7000 BC and the remnants of that society still have impact on the Scottish culture (albeit limited). I'm not sure I'd call that transient.

Culture is different in different places, there are aspects of Scottish culture anyone outside of Scotland (except maybe some Irish) would have difficulty understanding.

And there are some aspects of Irish culture that only the Scots would understand without difficulty. :nod:

[papayahed]

:sick: sorry I can't relate to patriotism at all

Starting the Kraut Konspiracy thread is a form of patriotism isn't it?

[kilted exile]

I think another aspect of patriotism that has not been brought up is the popular misconception that to be patriotic and love your country also means that you must believe other countries & the people who live there to be inferior.

On another note there are some countries eg Turkey where there are laws making it illegal to criticise the founder of the country. I would for instance suggest that this is taking patriotism too far.

[Lote-Tree]

I think another aspect of patriotism that has not been brought up is the popular misconception that to be patriotic and love your country also means that you must believe other countries & the people who live there to be inferior.


In a way it is...without it Patriotism does not work...patriotism is secular version of the Divine Election, of the chosen people etc.

The Babylonian Patriotism included that Babylon was the City of God. The Centre of the Universe etc etc...

[kilted exile]

bah...you are linking patriotism with xenophobia & racism 2 things which are distinctly different. I can quite easily be proud of & love Scotland without thinking people & places from outside of Scotland are inferior.

I can take pride in my country as having for a country of its size contributed so much to engineering, science & technology. I can love it for its natural beauty, but still enjoy the different types of scenery in other places around the world. I can enthuse about the better social conditions here in Canada, without loving my homeland any less.

[Lote-Tree]

bah...you are linking patriotism with xenophobia & racism 2 things which are distinctly different.


Patriotism is a form of Racism.

[blazeofglory]

Patriotism is something we idealize as a matter of fact. We love a country in a poem. But in reality .. I am thinking about migration. Of course I will have moments of nostalgia. But slowly the wind of change will sweep me too.

My idea of patriotism is not a particular county. It is a community. a world community indeed.

Indeed all are my own beings, and what we call border is only in the mind but not in reality. A line of border is drawn when brothers part.

[kilted exile]

Nonsense, the idea that to love one thing is to hate another is fundamentally flawed at best, and at worst not worth responding to.

As an example, in discussions with people since moving to Canada, one of the things I am consistently given as a reason for why they love their country is the multi-cultural aspect of it. this reason would hardly fit into your idea of racism

[Lote-Tree]

Racism - putting your race first.

Triablism - putting the members of your clan first.

Nationalism/Patriotism - putting your citizens first.

You may change the words but underlying ethos is the same.

You overcome this by going beyond it and embrace whole humanity.

[manolia]

Racism - putting your race first.

Triablism - putting the members of your clan first.

Nationalism/Patriotism - putting your citizens first.

You may change the words but underlying ethos is the same.

You overcome this by going beyond it and embrace whole humanity.

Patriotism is a positive word, Lote. Shovinism (sp?), xenophobia and nationalism (as it is used to indicate National Socialism) are negative words. There is nothing wrong in loving your country, its peoples' achievements (even if they aren't your own achievemnets there is no harm in admiring them and feeling a bit of pride in sharing the same language, culture etc with so many worthy people)..
I love my country but i don't think she is any better than the other countries nor i have the dellusion that our lives are worth more than other peoples' lives ..that we are brighter or of a higher race (i am trying to point out the differance between patriotism and nationalism)..
I also believe that people who have such notions are quite dangerous (for their own country first and then for the whole world).

Patriotism is loving your country.
Nationalism is feeling superior than other people (this includes foreigners as well as your country men-at least some minorities inside your country that disagree with you) and trying to impose your culture, your way of life, your values and way of thinking to others who (most of the times) don't want it and have never wanted your intervention ;)

[Niamh]

Patriotism is a form of Racism.

lote, patriotism is NOT a form of racism.
Patriotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patriotism)
Racism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism)

[SleepyWitch]

Well, that wasn't my definition. You're Krout Conspiracy thread seems patriotic to me, and nobly so.


You can't choose where you were born, but you're made up of where you live and have grown up.


Every culture has something to be proud of. Every culture has built art and music and cuisine and games and society with its own distinct identity. I would expect cave men from Mars to be proud of their identity. This doesn't mean that one supports one's country's decisions without reflection. One can and should dissent from things one disagrees with. What bugs me sometimes is the manner at which some people dissent. When dissent accuses one's fellow countrymen of evil or malicious motives, then I think it does become unpatriotic. One can dissent but one must understand that others see things differently.

ok, if that's your definition of patriotis, I agree with you and with what kilted said, except for your last point. I think in a truly free country any kind of dissent should be acceptable, even when ppl accuse their fellow countrymen of evil motives. who says they are exempt of malicious motives just because they happen to be countrymen?... as for being part of something that's larger than oneself, for me this larger thingy is humanity as a whole, not just one particular country....


yeah, the Kraut Konspiracy..... heheh, nope, I didn't exactly create that thread out of a personal sense of patriotism, .. it's more a matter of 'duty' or whatever you'd like to call it.... I was pissed off at how little some people (in the big bad world out there, not necessarily on lit net) know about Germany and seeing as I'm one of the few German lit net veterans, I thought I'd give it a try :) .............we do have the best beer and sausages in the world, though :D


Good point Sleepy The Witch. Does that mean that we can't be Proud of our Parents? because that too is accident of Birth?


hum.... if by being proud of your parents you mean that you admire them and try to emulate them, then you can, but if you mean resting on their laurels and priding yourself on what they have done, then the answer is no.

[mercy_mankind]

Racism - putting your race first.

Triablism - putting the members of your clan first.

Nationalism/Patriotism - putting your citizens first.

You may change the words but underlying ethos is the same.

You overcome this by going beyond it and embrace whole humanity.

I understand what do you want to say , but I think you want to say something else .
Nationality might be a sort of racism but not patriotism .

[TheFifthElement]

Lote, I kind of see what you're saying, but you articulate (if writing can be articulated!) in such a strange way. Re this comment:



Culture is also just a human construct. Again mere transience in flow of history.


Yes, culture is a human construct...we are human, so it makes sense that we live by human constructs.

But here:


Racism - putting your race first.

Triablism - putting the members of your clan first.

Nationalism/Patriotism - putting your citizens first.

You may change the words but underlying ethos is the same.

You overcome this by going beyond it and embrace whole humanity.

whilst I disagree with the sentiment that patriotism = nationalism / tribalism / racism I think, if I may paraphrase for you, that what you are saying is that we should try and be Patriotic Earthlings - i.e. not just love our country but love all of humanity too.

This I understand but then love is a big thing and you cannot love everyone and everything equally. So we humans deal in smaller terms, and we like to form connections. Patriotism is a form of connection, a form of love as, I think, Virgil said. So, by your definition I should love a man I've never met or spoken to or had any link with at all, in the same way that I love my family. But that would be impossible because love just doesn't work that way. Instead we broaden that love outwards in groups, for example, I would place the order of my depth of love as follows:

- family
- friends
- work colleagues/neighbours
- town
- county
- country (United Kingdom)
- wider country! (Europe!)
- Earth

like all forms of love it isn't blind - I love my family despite its faults, I love my country despite its faults, I love my world despite its faults. I could love each thing on the list equally, but when it is spread around the whole Earth the love has to be spread quite thinly.

Also, just because something is further down the 'pecking order' doesn't mean that it is less important. But ultimately the reason for acting in the interests of something lower down the list is to protect something higher up the list, with the final choice of those being oneself. For example, most people put their families first, but would put their family at risk - i.e. as soldiers do by going off to war despite the fact that their death would blow their family apart - for the sake of their country. By protecting their country they protect the interests of their family, protect their way of life, and ultimately themselves.

[Virgil]

we do have the best beer and sausages in the world, though :D

You patriot. :p :D

[crisaor]

Patriotism is loving your country.
But this love is based on chance, depending on the country you were born (most of the times, at least). It's not based on the actual merits of the said country, since if you had been born in another place, you wouldn't notice them. And I don't think it's a positive term per se, it's very common to hear the 'unpatriot!' shout when someone notices one of its own nation's shortcomings.


Nationalism is feeling superior than other people (this includes foreigners as well as your country men-at least some minorities inside your country that disagree with you) and trying to impose your culture, your way of life, your values and way of thinking to others who (most of the times) don't want it and have never wanted your intervention ;)
Indeed. But patriotism is a very quick way to nationalism.


Personally, I can feel a kinship to my fellow neighbours/countrymen due to a sense of familiarity or some such, but never would I dare call that patriotism, which clearly involves differentiating a group from another, most of the times in ugly ways.

[Oniw17]

Patriotism is the result of indoctrination. Every culture indoctrinates, whether purposely or not. You learn to love the culture that you grew up in because you naturally hate change. The things that you accept as right or wrong come directly from your cultural identity and define who you are. In multi-cultural societies, patriotism is little more than something people talk about(imo of course, and no offense to anyone intended). I've never had any patriotic feelings. I care about the future of my country because I have 7 younger siblings who depend onit even if I were to leave, but what does that mean?

[JBI]

People always try to belong. Therefore they cling to what is similar to them. First their social class, then their gender (sometimes other way around), then their race, then their nation, then their province, city, street, neighborhood, group of friends, marriage. How we identify creates the meaning in life.

[SleepyWitch]

whilst I disagree with the sentiment that patriotism = nationalism / tribalism / racism I think, if I may paraphrase for you, that what you are saying is that we should try and be Patriotic Earthlings - i.e. not just love our country but love all of humanity too.

This I understand but then love is a big thing and you cannot love everyone and everything equally. So we humans deal in smaller terms, and we like to form connections. Patriotism is a form of connection, a form of love as, I think, Virgil said. So, by your definition I should love a man I've never met or spoken to or had any link with at all, in the same way that I love my family. But that would be impossible because love just doesn't work that way. Instead we broaden that love outwards in groups, for example, I would place the order of my depth of love as follows:


the same goes for your definition, Fifth :) I mean, how many of your countrymen have you actually met?
grrr. there's a book by some politics prof, about the invention of the nation state but I can't remember his name at the moment, will post when/if it comes back to me... anyway, the bottom line of his argument is that nations are not communities. A community is a group that is just small enough for everyone in it to have face-to-face contact and they have a feeling of belonging (i.e. us vs them, etc). but in a nation state you are very unlikely to have met all of your countrymen. in fact, you only know a very small number of them, so it takes a lot of effort to create a feeling of community, e.g. through education, the media (this guy doesn't talk about the media controlling everything etc like in a conspiracy theory, if I remember correctly, what he means by the influence of the media is e.g. the fact that mass media can help create a standard language where there were lots of dialects before, or the fact that millions of people across the country watch the same evening news; I think I made these examples up myself :( )
................. :idea: Imagined Communities by Benedict Anderson
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imagined-Communities-Reflections-Origin-Nationalism/dp/1844670864/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1202458028&sr=8-1


anyways, Lote, do we really need to truly, madly, deeply love everyone in the whole world (or in our own country)??? wouldn't it be enough to accept people? I mean, there are lots of people in real life who I don't love 100% (or maybe not even 50%) but I can get along with them anyway, as long as I accept that their being different is not intended as an attack on my way of living/self-esteem/views/whatever

[TheFifthElement]

the same goes for your definition, Fifth :) I mean, how many of your countrymen have you actually met?

Of course you're right Sleepy but then I never said I loved them in the same way, but that human nature is to form connections/communities by degrees, starting with small groups and working outwards. In a sense a man I've never met in the country in which I live is still connected to me because he is part of the society that protects and nurtures me and my family even if nothing he or I does impacts on each other directly. We all contribute in our own ways to the same social structure, however 'fictional' that structure may be. That's how society works isn't it? The alternative would be complete individualism, but then humans are social creatures so there would never be true individualism.

Patriotism is a strange beast. I always find the American swearing of alliegiance to the flag to be strangely disturbing, like a form of indoctrination, but then perhaps I wouldn't think it strange if it was common to do that in the country in which I live. In fact in UK any overt acts of patriotism, for example English people displaying the flag of St. George is considered borderline nationalism and is greatly frowned upon (though I'm not sure why). I wonder if this is because people think patriotism has to be blind acceptance but I think it's equally patriotic to challenge the things that you believe your country has done wrong, as it is to accept it. Recent events are an example of that - there are things my country has done which I consider to have been an error, and I care enough about my country to want it to behave better. So whilst there are things which the society which is called United Kingdom have done which I consider to be good and bad, I can only use those as a reference to what I would like to see done more, or less, in the future. Does that make sense?

[Lote-Tree]

Patriotism is a positive word, Lote.

So was Communism?



There is nothing wrong in loving your country


Loving your country with Every Fibre of your Being?

I find this kind of notion very strange.



I love my country?


But why Manolia?

Why not United Kingdom? or Bhutan or Antartica?



I also believe that people who have such notions are quite dangerous (for their own country first and then for the whole world).


Yes. And we have seen the destructive effects of it throughout history! Patriotism is just another word in my view. Another blinkers on our eyes.



Yes, culture is a human construct...we are human, so it makes sense that we live by human constructs.


Yes. But it is Transient - that was my point.

Where are the Patriotic Sumerians, Akkadians?

We thus not Love these human constructs with Every Fibre of our Being but we should see them as their are - mere transcience in flow of History. Patriotism come and go...but our Humanity remains...and hopefully evolves a bit...



we should try and be Patriotic Earthlings


We should try to be decent human beings.



So we humans deal in smaller terms


But only by participating in a "Larger Ideal" that you overcome your Egotism.


Patriotism is the result of indoctrination.

Yes. A form of Indoctrination.


But this love is based on chance, depending on the country you were born (most of the times, at least). It's not based on the actual merits of the said country, since if you had been born in another place, you wouldn't notice them.


Yes. It is based on chance. And not only that they are also transient human construct.


the same goes for your definition, Fifth :) I mean, how many of your countrymen have you actually met?


Good point again Sleepy The Witch.



anyways, Lote, do we really need to truly, madly, deeply love everyone in the whole world (or in our own country)???


Love humans yes. Love Patriotism - No?



wouldn't it be enough to accept people?


Yes. Accept people as people as individuals and not Sumerians, Akkadians etc.



I mean, there are lots of people in real life who I don't love 100% (or maybe not even 50%) but I can get along with them anyway, as long as I accept that their being different is not intended as an attack on my way of living/self-esteem/views/whatever
[/quote]

It is by participating in a Larger Ideal that you overcome your own pettiness and egotism.

[Virgil]

So was Communism?

Pfft. Not to me. ;)


But why Manolia?

Why not United Kingdom? or Bhutan or Antartica?
Uhmm. It's self evident. It's one's identity that connects with patriotism. Why would she identify with those countries?


Yes. But it is Transient - that was my point.

Where are the Patriotic Sumerians, Akkadians?
I fail to understand the significance of this. You've brought it up a number of times. We are humans living in a particualr time and place, having grown in and contributed to a particualr culture. Our individual culture is made up of us, our individual culture is us.


We thus not Love these human constructs with Every Fibre of our Being but we should see them as their are - mere transcience in flow of History. Patriotism come and go...but our Humanity remains...and hopefully evolves a bit...
And we come and go and our individual lives run parallel with our cultures.


But only by participating in a "Larger Ideal" that you overcome your Egotism.
Well, if you're looking at a universal goverment, forget it. A government is made up of people and their particular values. There will never be a unified world government because people's values are different and don't want to be forced to accept other's values. Look at how hard it is for Europeans to agree on things.


Yes. A form of Indoctrination.
You call it indoctrination. I call it assimilation.


It is by participating in a Larger Ideal that you overcome your own pettiness and egotism.
One's "larger ideal" is another's dictatorship.

[Lote-Tree]

Pfft. Not to me. ;)

My Sweet lord! You make even God blush! :D



Uhmm. It's self evident.


No. It's not self-evident except the fact that she was born there.



Why would she identify with those countries?


Why not?




Our individual culture is made up of us, our individual culture is us.


It is made up hence it is transient. What is not made up is you as an individual. You as a human being. Your identity is your humanity and not the transient constructs you pass through.



You call it indoctrination. I call it assimilation.


Spade by any other name would still be a spade.



One's "larger ideal" is another's dictatorship.

Compassion is no one man's ideal. It is our humanity.

[manolia]

But this love is based on chance, depending on the country you were born (most of the times, at least). It's not based on the actual merits of the said country, since if you had been born in another place, you wouldn't notice them. And I don't think it's a positive term per se, it's very common to hear the 'unpatriot!' shout when someone notices one of its own nation's shortcomings.

Of course it is based on chance..who said the opposite :)
As for noticing other countries merits, everyone who is interested in world's history and politics and doesn't live in a nutshell can indeed aknowledge their merits. I could provide a list of the countries i admire (and some of them way more than my country ;) :) ). Loving your country doesn't exclude loving and admiring others as well :)



Indeed. But patriotism is a very quick way to nationalism.

Unfortunatelly yes. When people aren't educated properly, are poor or face economic and social difficulties can be handled like that..Patriotism can be a means of "internal consumption" (to make a rough translation of a greek phrase)..and leaders have used a rather perverse method of turning the love people have for their country to hatred for others (such as poor emmigrants who supposedly steal their works or other nations). It is an easy way to make people not to think of their actual problems and the possible and better solutions ;)
But like i said you can't blame patriotism.


So was Communism?

Haha..i won't answer that :p



Loving your country with Every Fibre of your Being?

I find this kind of notion very strange.

But why Manolia?

Why not United Kingdom? or Bhutan or Antartica?


Who said that the love for one's country exclude the love for others? Check my pesponse to crisaor. And yes i admire UK be pacified about that :p

[Klingsor]

sorry I can't relate to patriotism at all

Sleepy, you omit an important point: In Germany nobody calls himself a patriot (unless he is a nazi). Patriotism means to love your country. Not every single citizen in your country (that's not possible), but rather the culture of your country. Part of culture is history. So to be a german patriot you have to love german history, that means you have to love Hitler ...
Maybe you will say: Let's take only the good parts of the history and forget the bad ones. But this doesn't work. Culture is no supermarket. I love Scotch Whisky, but that doesn't make me a scottish patriot. As a German I cannot choose my culture, I have to take history as it is, and so even if I want to love it, I can't love it. It's a tragical situation.

Maybe it is Germany's task to transform patriotism, to go beyond it. Friedrich Nietzsche said: "Let us become good Europeans!"

[TheFifthElement]

But only by participating in a "Larger Ideal" that you overcome your Egotism.


Sorry Lote but I really don't understand this comment. It would help if you explained why you see Patriotism and Egotism as the same thing. Perhaps if you send me your dictionary it would all become clear ;) (where is my dictionary by the way?)



Well, if you're looking at a universal goverment, forget it. A government is made up of people and their particular values. There will never be a unified world government because people's values are different and don't want to be forced to accept other's values. Look at how hard it is for Europeans to agree on things.


Amen to that! Even in the governing of individual countries it is split down to a lower level, so much of the day to day governing is done by the local council or equivalent, with the commonalities of those governances being brought into 'national' law.

[crisaor]

You call it indoctrination. I call it assimilation.
Like the Borg? :p


As for noticing other countries merits, everyone who is interested in world's history and politics and doesn't live in a nutshell can indeed aknowledge their merits. I could provide a list of the countries i admire (and some of them way more than my country ;) :) ). Loving your country doesn't exclude loving and admiring others as well :)
Why the need for patriotism then?

[Virgil]

No. It's not self-evident except the fact that she was born there....

It is made up hence it is transient. What is not made up is you as an individual. You as a human being. Your identity is your humanity and not the transient constructs you pass through.

Lote, you sound like a mystic. Come on. I don't know if you're pulling my leg or are being serious. My idividualism/identity is made up of the "transient constructs" I pass through. Do you have a personality? I'm sure your personality has nothing in it of a Maori warrior. Or is this you Lote?

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/67/warriorm.gif

I bet this fellow isn't just a transient in the world of humanity. I bet he's from a specific time and place with an identity, and presumably proud and patriotic.


Compassion is no one man's ideal. It is our humanity.
Sure I agree. What does that have to do with patriotism. I think Manolia answers it perfectly:

Who said that the love for one's country exclude the love for others? Check my pesponse to crisaor. And yes i admire UK be pacified about that :p


Sleepy, you omit an important point: In Germany nobody calls himself a patriot (unless he is a nazi). Patriotism means to love your country. Not every single citizen in your country (that's not possible), but rather the culture of your country. Part of culture is history. So to be a german patriot you have to love german history, that means you have to love Hitler ...
Maybe you will say: Let's take only the good parts of the history and forget the bad ones. But this doesn't work. Culture is no supermarket. I love Scotch Whisky, but that doesn't make me a scottish patriot. As a German I cannot choose my culture, I have to take history as it is, and so even if I want to love it, I can't love it. It's a tragical situation.

Maybe it is Germany's task to transform patriotism, to go beyond it. Friedrich Nietzsche said: "Let us become good Europeans!"
Interesting post Klingsor. Of course there are things in everyone's history that one woould like to forget. Slavery for instance in my country. I still think that one can accept the bad, strive to correct current wrongs, and still be patriotic. There are good things too. I get upset with those who only focus on the bad things and therefore condem the entire culture. Those are the types I call self-hating. Perhaps I see where Sleepy is coming from now. Yes the neo-nazis and KKK's caim some special indigenous superiority. But we shouldn't let those idiots ruin our natural pride.


Amen to that! Even in the governing of individual countries it is split down to a lower level, so much of the day to day governing is done by the local council or equivalent, with the commonalities of those governances being brought into 'national' law.
Yes!! I fully agree. I already have too much government bearing down on me. Local government is where solutions are found. So much cynacism is generated because a goverment far away imposes laws that may make sense somewhere but doesn't make sense where one lives. Plus those that advocate world government always seem to picture that their laws and values are going to rule the day. What gurrantee is there for that. I bet many of you would not like to live under the values and laws I would prescribe. ;) Oh to be world dictator, that woud be so much fun. :p :D Seriously I bet there are laws and values from many places that you wouldn't want imposed on you. Just look at some third world countries.


Like the Borg? :p

I don't know what that is. Was that in a sci-fi movie?

[SleepyWitch]

Maybe it is Germany's task to transform patriotism, to go beyond it. Friedrich Nietzsche said: "Let us become good Europeans!"
count me in :thumbs_up

[jon1jt]

Patriotism is the moment you believe you can write a bestseller.

[Lote-Tree]

My idividualism/identity is made up of the "transient constructs" I pass through.


No. You are a human being no matter how many "transient" labels you put on yourself. Stand outside of these transient constructs - you will still be an individual. Still a human being.



Do you have a personality? I'm sure your personality has nothing in it of a Maori warrior.


I can be anything I want to be even a maori Warrior but it will not change my human identity.



I bet this fellow isn't just a transient in the world of humanity. I bet he's from a specific time and place with an identity, and presumably proud and patriotic.


So was a Nazi?



Sure I agree.


Then leave behind this blinkers called Patriotism and go beyond it. Virgil is not a American to me. He is a Human Being. He is an Individual. He may like his Big Macs and Coca Cola and Play football different than me - but he is still a human being and an Individual. His humanity does not change because he eats bagles instead of crumpets for breakfast.


Maybe it is Germany's task to transform patriotism, to go beyond it. Friedrich Nietzsche said: "Let us become good Europeans!"

I would say Let Us Become good Human Beings :D

And yes our next challenge is to go beyond Patriotism.

[blazeofglory]

Nonsense, the idea that to love one thing is to hate another is fundamentally flawed at best, and at worst not worth responding to.

As an example, in discussions with people since moving to Canada, one of the things I am consistently given as a reason for why they love their country is the multi-cultural aspect of it. this reason would hardly fit into your idea of racism

You seem farther from realties. Your idea of patriotism is in an ideal state and your ideal state is not in books and not in realities. In realities people choose opportunities, and nationalism or patriotism are attributes that are very weaker sentiments. It is full of pretensions. A kind of hypocrisy. I do not like to be a hypocrite.

When you love a particular country and when the intensity of it boils out of the rim it indeed births fanaticism.

To love a country or anything is not a vice. Of course it is good, but we know through history it led to wars as well.

Rather than being patriotic, confining ones' love to a country it is indeed better to be humanistic so as to feel that all human beings are equal and all are brothers and sisters.

To be a patriotic in today's world is an immature outlook.

[Klingsor]

Originally Posted by Klingsor
Maybe it is Germany's task to transform patriotism, to go beyond it. Friedrich Nietzsche said: "Let us become good Europeans!"

I would say Let Us Become good Human Beings :D

One step after another ... ;)

[Virgil]

No. You are a human being no matter how many "transient" labels you put on yourself. Stand outside of these transient constructs - you will still be an individual. Still a human being.



I can be anything I want to be even a maori Warrior but it will not change my human identity.

Well, Lote, I didn't realize you were such a metaphysicist. Or is the better word, mystic. At this point I don't know what else to say. When your feet once again touch the earth, then perhaps we can talk about this some more. Until then, you can stand outside transient constructs while i live in the real world. ;)

[kilted exile]

You seem farther from realties. Your idea of patriotism is in an ideal state and your ideal state is not in books and not in realities. In realities people choose opportunities, and nationalism or patriotism are attributes that are very weaker sentiments. It is full of pretensions. A kind of hypocrisy. I do not like to be a hypocrite.

When you love a particular country and when the intensity of it boils out of the rim it indeed births fanaticism.

To love a country or anything is not a vice. Of course it is good, but we know through history it led to wars as well.

Rather than being patriotic, confining ones' love to a country it is indeed better to be humanistic so as to feel that all human beings are equal and all are brothers and sisters.

To be a patriotic in today's world is an immature outlook.

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.......hypocrite - aren't we all in one way or another?Immature - quite possibly. BUT I am firmly grounded in reality. The reality is this: Despite what people would have you believe, not everyone who loves their country is a xenophobic racist intent of forcing everyone everywhere to ascribe to their own set of beliefs.

I am not a bigot or a racist or any other type of fanatic. I am a normal well adjusted person. I have never once made any claim about human beings not being equal, and quite frankly I am disgusted by the insinuations you are making in your post. In fact my post history contains numerous objections to posts made espousing that very idea.

You have now found yourself on the ignore list (that makes 2 in almost 4 years of posting on this forum

[Bakiryu]

Well, I can ow say I've learned a lot about patriotism you guys, even if the only person I do agree with is Lote.♥

[crisaor]

I don't know what that is. Was that in a sci-fi movie?
Yeah, from Star Trek. They were a powerful race of organic-bionic beings who 'assimilated' other races into their collective (none of them had a single mind, except for the leader). They were supposed to be based on communists. :p

[Lily Adams]

I'm a patriot because of what my country gave me just because I was born. It was guaranteed that I would have rights years and years and years before I was even born. I am healthy and I am safe because of it.

Then again, my country dissappoints me quite a bit, too.

[Lote-Tree]

Well, Lote, I didn't realize you were such a metaphysicist. Or is the better word, mystic. At this point I don't know what else to say. When your feet once again touch the earth, then perhaps we can talk about this some more. Until then, you can stand outside transient constructs while i live in the real world. ;)

When your Survival is at Stake you will indeed take up a Spear like a Maori Warrior and put it through the heart of your enemy! that is the Reality as it gets in the Real World ;-) :D

[Lote-Tree]

Yeah, from Star Trek. They were a powerful race of organic-bionic beings who 'assimilated' other races into their collective (none of them had a single mind, except for the leader). They were supposed to be based on communists. :p

And their Battle Cry was: Resistance is Futile. You will be Assimilated :D

The Borgs where really good since to them Power was irrelevant, Freedom was irrelevant and even Death was Irrelevant :D

[Lote-Tree]

Well, I can ow say I've learned a lot about patriotism you guys, even if the only person I do agree with is Lote.♥

Bueno Lassie ;-) :D

Truth Stands Out from Falsehoods :D

But don't worry it happens all the time ;-)