Do Animals Have Karma?

[Dark Muse]

I came acorss this discussion when I was looking up some information about Hindusim and I thought it was interesting for it is not something I have before given active thought to, but I am inclined to beleive that animals do have karma.

For one thing, in both Buddisim and Hindiusim animals take part in the act of reincarnation just as humans do, and in theses systems, Karma is seen as having an influence in the reincarnation process, and so if animals are reiencaranted, and karma is a part of reincarnation then they should have karma of thier own.

Also, karma is something that is attachted to a soul or spirit of person, which is why it can follow them, or affect them from one life to the next, so in my beleif that all living things have souls, then animals just as well should have karma if they also have a soul.

Karma in the eastren traditions is about duty and one following thier duty. It one lives by thier duty they aquire good karma, if they do not follow thier duty they aqcuire bad karma, and though animals live by a different set of rules then people do, they still have thier place, and thier roles, and thier own duty to follow.

[ForzaSugar]

So what should a lion do to gain karma?

[Dark Muse]

Well if you follow the Hindi philoshpies of Karma, as they relate to duty, in order of a lion to gain good karma, the lion would have to prefom its duty of protecting and providing for its pride

[ForzaSugar]

Do lions knows that they have a pride?

[Dark Muse]

In case you have misunderstood, pride is the word, used to call a family or group of lions, like a pack of wolves, for lions, they call it a pride. And like all animals that live in some sort of pack, a pride is a well orginaized community with each lion having its place and duty within the pride, to preform.

[ForzaSugar]

My English is not good. Anyway... So do they know that they have to protect their pride to gain karma?

[Dark Muse]

Well it is thier duty as lions to look after thier pride though wheather or not animals are aware of thier karma is another question. Though I do think animals have more awarness then many humans give them cridit for, it is also part of thier instinct to look after the pride, but even it it is instinct, it is still thier duty and so they are still acting in a way that is required of them to gain karma.

[Wakaba]

animals (in buddhist views) certainly have karma. People can be reincarnated as animals and Tibetans believe every sentient being was once their mother in a previous life.

[jon1jt]

Silly question. We haven't a clue why a cockroach turns right or left.

[kiz_paws]

Your original question is "Do Animals Have Karma", and:

Karma in the eastren traditions is about duty and one following thier duty. It one lives by thier duty they aquire good karma, if they do not follow thier duty they aqcuire bad karma, and though animals live by a different set of rules then people do, they still have thier place, and thier roles, and thier own duty to follow.

So without reason to produce an argument, you have just given the proof that animals have karma (at least, in a human understanding)... no? Afterall, no matter how much you coddle a snake, it could bite you at any given time...

[Dark Muse]

I have given my interpitation based on my beliefs, and what I have stuided, but that does not mean everyone has to agree with me. As there is no true ultimate proff that anyone has karma.

[blazeofglory]

I karma is something that is attachted to a soul or spirit of person, which is why it can follow them, or affect them from one life to the next, so in my beleif that all living things have souls, then animals just as well should have karma if they also have a soul.


This is really interesting to discuss things like this. I am really unsure whether animals have dominance over their minds. Animals do not rationalize things the way we do in point of fact and it is their instincts that is always at work and there is no what we call the domain of free choice among animals.

They are of course more disciplined and their courses are more natural or they are naturals the way we are more false, feigned and the like.

Karma is something we philosophize basing our selves on something supernaturalism. Animals have little to do with the way we think.

[Trillian]

I hope you don't mind me dropping in, but this is a great mind-bender. It made me wonder further if domesticated animals are more susceptible to karma than are wild animals. A well trained dog knows that to potty in the floor is bad, and will show signs of shame if it does. Could it be said that to domesticate an animal and train it could give it more opportunity to accumulate bad karma? And that said, could that have an effect on one's own karma, since we are training animals to act outside of their natural instinct?

[one_raven]

Also, karma is something that is attachted to a soul or spirit of person, which is why it can follow them, or affect them from one life to the next, so in my beleif that all living things have souls, then animals just as well should have karma if they also have a soul.

Karma and reincarnation are two distinct subjects.
Placing the religious dogma and other cultural baggage aside for the moment, the Pali word Kamma (or the more well-known “Karma” in Sanskrit) means simply “action” and implies the results of action. If Bill kicks a stone with his bare feet, and injures his toe – that is Kamma in its simplest, most straight forward form.
In that light, of course animals have karma.

[Dark Muse]

This is really interesting to discuss things like this. I am really unsure whether animals have dominance over their minds. Animals do not rationalize things the way we do in point of fact and it is their instincts that is always at work and there is no what we call the domain of free choice among animals.

I would have to disagree with this in someways, though animals do think differently then people do, and do respond more to thier instincts, I think animals are more aware of themselves then people tend to give them cridit for.




I hope you don't mind me dropping in, but this is a great mind-bender. It made me wonder further if domesticated animals are more susceptible to karma than are wild animals. A well trained dog knows that to potty in the floor is bad, and will show signs of shame if it does. Could it be said that to domesticate an animal and train it could give it more opportunity to accumulate bad karma? And that said, could that have an effect on one's own karma, since we are training animals to act outside of their natural instinct?

That is an interesting thought upon the subject. In a way having domesiticated aniamls also exposes animals more to the Karma of thier caretakers as well, and it does offer a conflict of sorts.

For what then is the duty of a domesitacated animal, to obey its master, or to act in the way that nature calls for it to act. Domesicated animals are often put in a sort of conflict of being conditioned to act against thier instincts.

[blazeofglory]

All that I want to say is animals do not rationalize things and of course they see or judge things the way they see, and never make pretensions and do not live with double standards the way we do, outside and inside. There are fewer layers in their lives than we do have. That is the point I want to put across

[one_raven]

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the heavenly worlds."

Anguttara 6.63

Yes.
The Buddha did say that animals experience Kamma.

[Trillian]

I would like to contend that the Bible itself speaks of animals that display the capabilities to judge and reason. For instance in Numbers Chapter 22, God opened the mouth of Balaam's donkey so she could explain to Balaam that she had not been acting up; rather, she had been trying to save his life. The donkey saw an angel with a flaming sword, came to the conclusion that the angel was up to some bad crap, and came to the conclusion that she had better take evasive action to save her rider. Bet she got some wicked good karma for that!:nod:

[blazeofglory]

Well if you follow the Hindi philoshpies of Karma, as they relate to duty, in order of a lion to gain good karma, the lion would have to prefom its duty of protecting and providing for its pride

Animals have instinctive behaviors. They do not live or act as we do out of free will.

[Dark Muse]

That is your opinion of which I choose to disagree. There is no way to prove to me 100% that animals have no free will, becasue no one knows exzactly what goes on within the minds of animals sense humans cannot effetively comminitate with animals.

[Madhuri]

Karma simply means work or action.

Every living being is expected to work as they are supposed to be. Human beings are to act like humans, and animals are expected to be like animals. The ability to rationalize is just an attribute of humans.

Animals, even if they cannot rationalise their actions, doesnt mean they dont have a karma. They definitely do what they are supposed to do. The lions, hunt, and protect their pride; the snakes are expected to bite when in danger, and that is their karma (work / action).

[Dark Muse]

Yes that is what I was trying to say above


Well if you follow the Hindi philoshpies of Karma, as they relate to duty, in order for a lion to gain good karma, the lion would have to prefom its duty of protecting and providing for its pride

Regaurdless of my personal views, that statement did not really say anything about free will or the ablity to rationalize.

[Madhuri]

in order for a lion to gain good karma

The ability to decide whether any action is good or bad is with humans. Human beings can think and decide how they should act, thereby earning them good or bad points for their karma. The animals cannot do so.

It is the duty of a lion to hunt and protect. But, what if they kill a human being to do so? As a human I can say that it is not a good karma for the lion, and earns him a bad karma (that is because a human can understand the difference between good or bad). However, it is juistified action for the lion, as he was doing his duty for providing.

If we dont go into the good or the bad factor then karma is for any living being.

[Dark Muse]

All I ment by good karma, is that if for some reason an animal did not behave the way it should. For example of an animal were to abandoned its young, which has happend upon rare occasion for one reason or another. That would be bad karma for the animal, becasue it should protect and providee for its young.

[Dark Muse]

It is the duty of a lion to hunt and protect. But, what if they kill a human being to do so? As a human I can say that it is not a good karma for the lion, and earns him a bad karma (that is because a human can understand the difference between good or bad). However, it is juistified action for the lion, as he was doing his duty for providing.

Well to me a lion killing a human is no different than a lion killing a zebra, I do not view human life as having more value than animal life.

[blazeofglory]

Well to me a lion killing a human is no different than a lion killing a zebra, I do not view human life as having more value than animal life.

In fact what you said is totally agreeably to me, and animals go with their instincts and they do not rationalize things with the stuff Karma and any rubbishes.

[Madhuri]

Well to me a lion killing a human is no different than a lion killing a zebra, I do not view human life as having more value than animal life.

That is fine. The point that I made was that, it is justifiable for the lion to kill a human, as he is supposed to provide, and he was doing his duty. But, a human being, who can think and rationalise, can differentiate between good and bad, may say that this is not the natural behaviour for a lion, and hence is a bad karma. Its not that human life has more value, so the lion should not kill, but its not a pattern with a lion hunting a human being.

[Dark Muse]

Yes I see what you are saying, but you were saying as a human it would be considered bad karma for a lion to kill a human. But odds are if a human gets killed by a lion, they did something to put themselves in that place and were tresspassing on the lion's territory.

What I am trying to say is, that even if the lion could reationalize, to kill the human might still be the right action to preform, as the human could be the one acting in the wrong.


As a human I can say that it is not a good karma for the lion, and earns him a bad karma (that is because a human can understand the difference between good or bad). However, it is juistified action for the lion, as he was doing his duty for providing.

This seemed to suggest that it would be wrong for a lion to kill the human being, but the lion might have a perfectly good reason to do so.

[Madhuri]

Yes. That is another way of looking at it. I agree.

[blazeofglory]

Karma simply means work or action.

Every living being is expected to work as they are supposed to be. Human beings are to act like humans, and animals are expected to be like animals. The ability to rationalize is just an attribute of humans.

Animals, even if they cannot rationalise their actions, doesnt mean they dont have a karma. They definitely do what they are supposed to do. The lions, hunt, and protect their pride; the snakes are expected to bite when in danger, and that is their karma (work / action).

There is a little more than that as regards Karma, and of course it has to do with your acction beiong accountable for all your future fates.

[B-Mental]

What about the animals that travel from hundreds of miles away to be with their owners or family. I know that my brothers dogs are rescue dogs. This means they were both abused, were rescued, and live in caring homes now. I lived with Joe and Nancy for a little while when Sierra was brought there. Now my brother's pets treat me like part of the family. I walk them, I feed them, and I pet & play with them. I know that they respond to my karma of kindness, and I know that I respond to theirs.

[blazeofglory]

Karma is universal, for all animates and inanimate beings are strung by the tread of Karma.

Everywhere we see Karma, and all are bound by it. Karma is action, and action is both voluntary and involuntary. There are different interpretations of Karma.
Karma and results are totally interrelated.

People generally think that our actions in this life shape our next life. The truth is that action is causative and not only in afterlife in this one we will face its result.

In the Gita Krishna has said, do Karma Arjuna, and it is your duty and do not worry about the result, for if your mind is on the result you will not do your Karma properly or righteously. For the result is bound to happen and why we give thought to it.

The Gita urges us to do Karma for Karma leads to liberation ultimately. As nature is always in action and if man is not in action it is the law of nature.

So to do Karma is to be in tune with nature. It creates harmony in nature.

[one_raven]

Karma knows and cares nothing about "Good" or "Bad".
It's not a bank account with debits and credits.
There is no tallyman watching and keeping track.
One "good" act does not cancel out one "bad" act or vice versa.
Karma is just action, and implies the results fo that action.
The "good" and "bad" are highly relative value judgements placed by the observer - there is nothing universal, dogmatic or prescriptive about it.
Karma does not place value judgements.

[Hypercrit Htd]

that why Bible forbids eating of animals killed unlawfully-to eat that animal mean to share in it karma.

As Morrissey say; "Meat is murder"

[one_raven]

that why Bible forbids eating of animals killed unlawfully-to eat that animal mean to share in it karma.

I can't recall the bible saying anything about sharing in an animal's karma by eating it.
I don't even know what that means.

Maybe you could tell me what chapter and verse that is, so I can read it?
Thanks.

[DooRag]

Karma is simply an Indian originated word that we still use today. It isn't something you can "have".

[V.Jayalakshmi]

Dear Members,

Karma means action.If life is teated simply as a flow then the way it flows is determined by Karma.With regard to animals in Hindu way of thinking( Perhaps in every way of thinking....evolution that is scientific),the higher form of animal is man.So man has the choice of 'righteous karma' and wrong karma.In Gita when Arjuna faced his relatives this conflict faced him.Is he by going to war against relatives is doing 'wright Karma' or wrong Karma.Krishna preached him the inevitability of Karma at that moment of war and why 'right karma' is to be at war with relatives who are on the side of wrong.Many good relatives ,because they chose to be with wrongful action faced death as a result.

As you read more and more on this Hindu concept of Karma,you get answers to 'whys?' of this life.

[blazeofglory]

Dear Members,

Karma means action.If life is teated simply as a flow then the way it flows is determined by Karma.With regard to animals in Hindu way of thinking( Perhaps in every way of thinking....evolution that is scientific),the higher form of animal is man.So man has the choice of 'righteous karma' and wrong karma.In Gita when Arjuna faced his relatives this conflict faced him.Is he by going to war against relatives is doing 'wright Karma' or wrong Karma.Krishna preached him the inevitability of Karma at that moment of war and why 'right karma' is to be at war with relatives who are on the side of wrong.Many good relatives, because they chose to be with wrongful action faced death as a result.

As you read more and more on this Hindu concept of Karma,you get answers to 'whys?' of this life.

Krishna did it to serve a particular purpose. The one and only purpose it is to hem Arjuna in the battlefield for he chose to withdraw, for he did not want to kill anybody for it was against the principles or laws in sacred texts. Sacred texts are laws that bind on all, and none can disobey it which is a kind of sacrilege. Arjuna did not want to involve himself in such sacrileges or profanities. Seeing that he is withholding Krishna did not want him to withdraw at all. Krishna wanted Arjuna to get to action and action is deemed Karma and he urged Arjuna to be Karmic never to recoil from it.

I do not say what was decided therein was righteous at all. It was totally injustice. Millions and millions of people died. I hold that the Gita is a sacred text and believed that Krishna was a redeemer, liberator but still all he did in the name of religions or righteousness to slay the innocnet who have nothing to do with the family feuds of these two families Dhrtia Rastra and Yudhisthir.

These acts, the acts of killing the innocent who have nothing to gain from the war can not be justified on any ground. If we take it for granted just it because Krishna was god and the acts of God is good does not validate the point that all his acts to the extent of coaxing Arjuna who chose to withdraw out of the boundless compassion he had for the relatives and the innocnet.

All war whether in the name of religions or politics or geography are not sacred or holy. I object such things even if our sacred texts justify or defend or harbor such acts.

[V.Jayalakshmi]

Dear Blaze Glory,

Thank you for your kind reply giving your view.I had just answered the question "Do Animals Have Karma?".My personal views about the development of philosophic thoughts is as below.

1)In any age actions differ.Also what is considered as 'pride' also differ.Hence perhaps the necessity for a war in Kurukshetra.Please remember Youdhishtira and brothers were ready to accept five villages.

2)Think of the atom bomb in Hiroshima.Who decided it should be dropped?The tragedy occurs many times due to 'Action decided by just someone's concept of "what must be done".Possibly for prestige?

3) As human beings continue to grow in "Righteous Actions",new philosophies will spring forth,including the concept of "No War" at any cost.

Thanking you.

[blazeofglory]

Dear Blaze Glory,

Thank you for your kind reply giving your view.I had just answered the question "Do Animals Have Karma?".My personal views about the development of philosophic thoughts is as below.

1)In any age actions differ.Also what is considered as 'pride' also differ.Hence perhaps the necessity for a war in Kurukshetra.Please remember Youdhishtira and brothers were ready to accept five villages.

2)Think of the atom bomb in Hiroshima.Who decided it should be dropped?The tragedy occurs many times due to 'Action decided by just someone's concept of "what must be done".Possibly for prestige?

3) As human beings continue to grow in "Righteous Actions",new philosophies will spring forth,including the concept of "No War" at any cost.

Thanking you.

Yours are words of wisdom and of course things or events happen when ideas crop up in someone's mind and of course the idea originated in some person' s mind and the case of Hiroshima happened. The idea, however, was not good and we all know it. Indeed Hitler justified his ideas through a number of wars against all the Jews of the world but we have nothing to vindicate his words and actions. Those who are inspired or better to say, instigated by his ideas deem him a saint but the majority of us deem him the devil incarnate.

I do not want to hurt your feelings and sentiments and of course your liking to the Mahabharata is something out of your understanding of your cultured mind and I can not understand and measure the height you scaled in your understanding the basic tenets of the Mahabharata.

But in my case based on my understanding of the Mahabharata, all I think is the war that broke in Kuruchettra that killed not only big lords but ,masses of innocent people who had nothing to do with whoever won, except for the temptation of getting entry into heaven.

All I feel is heaven and hell are projections of our minds and not realities at all.

I condemn all kinds of wars, whether it is Dharma Yuddha or Papa Youddha.

I have also read the Mahabaharata and the Gita in this great sacred book. I find no companions. This is par excellence.

Forgive me if I sound arrogant.

[TheSeeker]

For those who are interested in animal karma (and in general in the evolution of souls), I recommend the book: A Soul's Journey from Peter Richelieu. This is a classic book first publsihed around World War II. In essence, animals have group karma (ie. they share a common karma), although the size of the group varies from intelligent animals (like dogs, cats, horses) to less intelligent animals (like insects). Animals which sacrify themselves to save humans earn exceptionally good karma that enables them to evolve into humans in later lives. Just googling the book's title and the author's name, and viewing the comments from other people who have read the book, would allow you to have some ideas about what this book is about.

[blazeofglory]

In fact Karma is action, and in Hinduism it is a multivocal word. Literally it is action and philosophically it has many meanings. Karma is said to shape our life and an afterlife too. In fact it is something that occupies us.

The entire world is run by Karma and nothing else and there is nothing can we come across other than Karma.

The earth spins around the sun based on the canon of Karma, the wind blows, rivers flow all and mirror Karmic activities. This is a profound word.
As a matter of act we can not live without Karma, even breathing in and out is part of Karma and every move and even thinking is Karma.

It is a broad and pervasive word, and it has a scope immeasurable in point of fact.

Life is unthinkable without Karma.

We are here just became of Karma. In Hinduism it is said that we are here and in this state because of our previous life' s Karma.

This Karma is really a mind blowing word and it is so often used that it has lost its weight and is often used as Cliche.

Few persons using the word know the real meaning of it and once you know the meaning of it you will attain sainthood or you will elevate your life to heaven or direct yourself to Nirvana.

The best book ever that gives you or demystifies the meaning of it is the Gita, a rare book in the world.

The Gita is such book that has no comparison and that has no model or can not find its parallel.

I have scribbled too many words on the issue of the word Karma is owing to the fact that I have read lots about it and written too many treatises or articles on it.

I do not mean I agree to what is often talked about Gita quite often or the way in which this is illustrated in some sacred texts. However it ignites a kind of impulses whenever I come across this word in my life.

If you come across a Hindu Pundit and ask a question about Karma he can keep on talking about it for hours until you can not hold your self any longer and start losing patience.

[learntodiscover]

That is your opinion of which I choose to disagree. There is no way to prove to me 100% that animals have no free will, becasue no one knows exzactly what goes on within the minds of animals sense humans cannot effetively comminitate with animals.

exactly! You said earlier that animals have certain duties to keep...like the example with the lion, what I wanted to know is since we don't know what happens in an animals mind, how are we to know what their duties are? From observation? or do we base it on the fact that as humans we have many duties therefore the animals should have some too? doesn't that seem a bit contradictory?

I'm just asking.
By the way, what is the difference between hinduism and budhism if they both believe in karma and reincarnation?

[NikolaiI]

There's a lot to say about Hinduism and Buddhism. Buddhism says that there is no soul, while Hinduism believes there is a soul. They both believe in karma and non-violence for aniamls. Hinduism and Buddhism have many of the same terms, since they come from the same culture and language. Hindus believe in God or they may worship one or two faces of the Godhead. Hindus may worship Krishna, Shiva, Durga, Ganesha, etc.

Hindus comes from the Vedas, and Buddhism comes from various canons and sutras. I believe Vedas are also called the shastras, which means scripture.

Buddhists don't worship Buddha as God, necessarily, although it says in some texts he is considered equal to the cosmos, and to the 'realm of reality.' There are different Buddhas, such as Amitabha, the Buddha of Light. Some take them more literally than others. Buddhists have extensive prayers and sutras, rituals, images of the bodhisattvas for meditation. They have chanting beads with 108 beads, with one extra, the same as Vaishnavas who use them to chant Hare Krishna.

[blazeofglory]

All live according to Karma, no matter whether you are humans or animals. We are not things of dualities and ultimately dualities evaporate into nothingness. We are one, indivisibly or integrally.