Homosexuality

[1n50mn14]

Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals"

1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers"

Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."


^__^ Several references in the Christian bible referring to homosexuality as being 'wrong' or an 'abomination'.

I am not extremely religious personally, though I have much respect for people who are. To have faith, to believe, and to follow a doctrine (at least one of peace and love and acceptance) is an admirable thing to me.

I do not, however, understand how the Bible can preach compassion and tolerance and acceptance when it can not accept homosexuality.

This is not a thread I want to get heated or angry.

I'm simply bewildered by those who can't accept homosexuality. It's not a choice. It's genetic. I want to understand WHY there's a lack of acceptance.

[NikolaiI]

The first thing that springs to mind is that that was a verse, written by a human, a man, and, on top of that, an anonymous one. I believe it to be this person's opinion, and I see no reason to believe anything about them, whether they have the moral ground, etc., or what do I know about them? I'm sorry, it just doesn't make sense to believe in this person--anonymous, again-- this anonymous person who wrote this portion of the bible. I'm sorry, no. I'm sorry that it keeps coming back to that but it's all I can think.

[Zeruiah]

I'm simply bewildered by those who can't accept homosexuality. It's not a choice. It's genetic. I want to understand WHY there's a lack of acceptance.

Although I agree with you on the issue of tolerance, I have to point out that it's still unknown as to whether there is a homosexual gene or not.

Continue. :thumbs_up

[Virgil]

I do not, however, understand how the Bible can preach compassion and tolerance and acceptance when it can not accept homosexuality.


The Bible surely preaches compassion. But where does it preach tolerance or acceptance? Christ gets angry and intolerant in a number of places in the New Testament. And who says that all things must be accepted? I can think of lots of things, not related to homosexuality, that one should be intolerant of or not accept. It seems to me that the ten commandments set up a line of what is acceptable. I bet there are commandments you don't find acceptable, for instance not observing the Sabbath. I know orthodox Jews that shun other jews for not obeying the Sabbath rules, and that is their right and obligation. It doesn't strike me as absurd (actually most cultures around the world feel this way) that homosexual acts are defined as unacceptable behavior, although I may not necessarily agree with it.

[Anza]

I often wonder the same thing, Becca.
And as far as I'm concerned, homosexuals are the greatest lovers of all. They love each other enough to defy society and accept the scorn thereof. I not only admire believers in non-radical religions, but I admire homosexuals, as well.

[Klingsor]

The logic behind this lines in the bible is: God gave us our sexual organs only as instruments to create children - for no other purpose, and surely not to have fun! God combined sex and fun only as a stimulus for us to make children.
But a homosexual act cannot produce children, people do this just to have fun. So this is a way to decieve God ...
(This is not my opinion, of course.)


it's still unknown as to whether there is a homosexual gene or not.
That's right, but it doesn't mean that it is a free choice to be homosexual. 100 years ago most people thought that homosexuality was just a crazy invention of some licentious guys: "Oh, we tried so much sexual perversities, now let's try some homosexuality, too ..." It does'n work this way.



I am not extremely religious personally, though I have much respect for people who are. To have faith, to believe, and to follow a doctrine (at least one of peace and love and acceptance) is an admirable thing to me.
In this thread we see the point where respect and tolerance must end. I do respect people who have faith and follow a doctrine for their own personal live. But I don't respect people who claim their doctrine to be legal for everybody.

[papayahed]

The logic behind this lines in the bible is: God gave us our sexual organs only as instruments to create children - for no other purpose, and surely not to have fun! God combined sex and fun only as a stimulus for us to make children.
But a homosexual act cannot produce children, people do this just to have fun. So this is a way to decieve God ...
(This is not my opinion, of course.)




If that's the case women over child bearing years are sinning also. So I guess old ladies and homosexuals are in the same boat.

[Klingsor]

women over child bearing years are sinning also.
Well, in this cases God sometimes worked a "miracle" ... ;)

[Scheherazade]

Or people who are physically incapable of having children should abstain as well?

[papayahed]

And now that I think about it...It's kind of mysogynistic to suggest women over child bearing years cannot have sex lest they sin when men can father children well into they're seventies (at least). It seems to me that if that was the case that men should dump theyre wives to find younger women or they will be sinning as well, either that or spend the rest of their lives not having sex. Either way doesn't seem conducive to safe, happy, nuturing families.

[motherhubbard]

I don’t want to get really involved in this discussion, but as far as what papaya and Scheherazade said here are a couple of scriptures (two of my personal favorites). This is referring to the marriage relationship if you look at what is before and after this scripture. I think it just goes to show that God meant for us to enjoy each other.


1co 7:5 withhold ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.


And further teaching that sex between a man and wife is fine and dandy

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled…

[AuntShecky]

To your question about the reason(s) for homophobia,I'm no psychologist nor religious expert, but I've read that
the professional consensus holds that intolerance stems from a "latency" towards that particular tendency, in which the intolerant, or perhaps bigoted person, sees the same
thing in himself and feels somehow vaguely threatened.

[Granny5]

I think the Bible was written by men and that is the reason for such homophobia in it. Men who were probably meeting up with their buddies and keeping it on the down low. If homosexuality was such a terrible sin, why isn't it mentioned in the Ten Commandments? In my church we are taught not to judge others. What I don't understand is why it would be anyones business? I couldn't care less who is having sex with who unless it was my significant other. I guess I've so many problems of my own the worry about that I don't have time to worry about things that don't concern me.

[Anza]

Bravo, Granny! You tell 'em!

[Pendragon]

Who says that sex was only for reproduction: Heb.13
[4] Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

This is a strong statement. Between married couples, what you do in bed is your business, but this is couples, and in the Bible, heterosexual couples. But notice it condemns pure recreational sex outside of a couple in the bonds of marriage, and jumps people besides homosexuals!

Homosexuality is condemned by the Bible, but as I say, I am not their judge and have never said anything to a friend on here I knew was gay or lesbian. This was not because I have no concern for their soul, they know me to be a minister, if they have questions they will ask me. I will not single them out based on their sexuality for a sermon.

I will go so far as this: Had I a church (how I wish!) and the homosexuals came, so long as they did not try to convert others to their way of living (they really believed you are born gay), if they could stand my preaching knowing I disagreed with their life styles, but showed them the Love of God, they would be as welcome as anyone. If my preaching the word of God didn't run them off, then they were depending on God's Grace and who am I to say them nay, God won't have Grace on you. I am not God, and He said "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy,”.

They throw out the homosexual and the adulterer and the fornicators sit on the front rows and hold offices in the church. Sin is sin! It is all covered under sexual sin in the Bible and was all punishable by stoning! I learned a lesson back in 9th grade from a Chinese Student Teacher: One sin is not worth 2 points and another worth 4. God considers it all sin. One is as bad as the other.

Why can’t we just come to the point and say, the blood of Christ was shed for all sin, if the homosexual cannot be forgiven neither can I.

God Bless

Pen

[iorix]

homosexuality is a symptom of severe spiritual degeneration. a society that condones this obscenity is ripe for destruction.

God is witness to all things.

If God says something is abhorrant to Him dont do it.

Be wise, fear God and live well to prepare for death and your meeting with your Lord.

God is the Manifest Truth and is Absolute Sovereign.

[1n50mn14]

What I want to know is WHY you, iorix, believe that. I am not attempting to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand because it truly bewilders me.

I don't understand what's wrong with love. Love is love, no matter who it is between.

[Anza]

Beautiful, Becca

[iorix]

this is not a belief, this is a fact. God created this world and established law not to tyranize us but to guide us. The reality of God's creation is obscured to us because we are ruled by people who are ANTI-theists and they make every effort to turn people into corrupted and defiled A-theists.

these people have power over the media and text books and they can influence our ways of understanding ourselves. these people go out of their to spread corruption and obscenity inorder to spite God. These people know the truth about God but they oppose God because they think they are at war with Him and that they can defeat Him.

There is nothing wrong with love but sodomy is not love but an extreme degradation of marriage and family. loose morals and abortion. people seem to have no trouble having their unborn children vacu-sucked to shreds out of their wombs but they are offended when someone opposes unregulated sexual conduct and anal intercourse.

it is all too crazy really.

[Anza]

God is not a fact because an majority believes in Him.
People believe Britney Spears is a role Model. Does that make it true?
God is a fact to people, and because of people spreading His name.
And for the record, guidelines guide us, while rules tyranize.
Each man is ruled by himself. If he is atheist, then he is governed by an atheist. If he is Christian, he is governed by a Christian. This is because each man is governed by his own beliefs.
So, where does abortrion meet Homosexuality???

[Anza]

Lev 18:22-23 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev 20:13 "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death."

1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals"

1 Tim 1:9-10 "realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers"

Rom 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."


^__^ Several references in the Christian bible referring to homosexuality as being 'wrong' or an 'abomination'.

I am not extremely religious personally, though I have much respect for people who are. To have faith, to believe, and to follow a doctrine (at least one of peace and love and acceptance) is an admirable thing to me.

I do not, however, understand how the Bible can preach compassion and tolerance and acceptance when it can not accept homosexuality.

This is not a thread I want to get heated or angry.
I'm simply bewildered by those who can't accept homosexuality. It's not a choice. It's genetic. I want to understand WHY there's a lack of acceptance.

Read the part that's red

[iorix]

abortion and homosexuality are due to the corruption of humanity, disrespect for human life and collective defilement at the hands of ANTI-theists.
the people that spread atheist dogma know the truth about God.

[Anza]

What have Homosexuals ever done to you??

[iorix]

GOD Is The Manifest Truth And He Is Witness To All Things

[Anza]

That doesn't answer my question... Perhaps you can't answer my question... I shall pose it again:


What did Homosexuals ever do to you???

[1n50mn14]

Let me remind you of the purpose of this thread- NOT to argue, NOT to force your beliefs upon others (because it is NOT a fact that God exists, it is SIMPLY a PERSONAL opinion and belief and there is NOTHING wrong with that).

My point, I had hoped, was to discuss calmly and civilly each other's beliefs and possibly open eyes toward each other's beliefs, no matter what those may be.

NOTHING is fact.

Gah. I quit this thread.
I don't want argument. I don't want nastiness. I want calm, clear-eyed discussion of an important issue.

[Anza]

We'll wait until Iorix leaves...

[1n50mn14]

The Bible surely preaches compassion. But where does it preach tolerance or acceptance? Christ gets angry and intolerant in a number of places in the New Testament. And who says that all things must be accepted? I can think of lots of things, not related to homosexuality, that one should be intolerant of or not accept. It seems to me that the ten commandments set up a line of what is acceptable. I bet there are commandments you don't find acceptable, for instance not observing the Sabbath. I know orthodox Jews that shun other jews for not obeying the Sabbath rules, and that is their right and obligation. It doesn't strike me as absurd (actually most cultures around the world feel this way) that homosexual acts are defined as unacceptable behavior, although I may not necessarily agree with it.

Well said. I just didn't want to insult anybody, but I agree.

[iorix]

what about pedophelia or bestiality or necrophilia. people who have sex with dogs should be allowed to marry their pets legaly? nothing is true and everything is permissable.

people will go on about how homosexuality is acceptable but suddenly become moral when it comes to bestiality and say it is wrong. even pedophelia is defended by some people in the Kinsley report, or whatever it is called

you have to draw the line somewhere. people shouldnt have sex outside of marriage, a bond between a man and a woman sanctioned by the community under the law of God, this is the only way human society can not breakdown to the point that we get into discussions like this about why bestiality is not acceptable but homosexuality is.

[Anza]

You again? Becca, just ignore him!
Perhaps you can answer me now

What did homosexuals ever do to you??!?!!

[Niamh]

General mod note:
Can we please keep this discussion at a calm level. Please respect the fact that other people will have different beliefs than yours. Please read the forum rules for the religious texts forum. Please refrain from making this discussion personal.And be nice to each other.:)

[Anza]

yes, maam

[Logos]

Some posts have been removed due to being inflammatory, disrespectful to others, and / or inappropriate for an all-ages forum. Any further such posts will be removed and result in a Religious Texts Forum time-out, and / or Infraction Points being issued.

As Niamh said, read the forum rules. (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410)
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410

Please try to get back to the content of the OP in reference to the Bible if you can :)

--

[Il Penseroso]

Ok, as far as drawing a line about what is acceptable and what is not, the point should be to not make it arbitrary. If that distinction is made to only suit your own values about what is right/wrong in ways that reflect a personal bias (the Bible does this), you are being intolerant (yes, I do believe tolerance, and beyond that acceptance - which means a genuine belief that the behavior is not condemnable - and respect are needed in a productive society).

Let's evaluate the distinction that only sex between married, heterosexual partners is good, and bestiality, necrophilia, and homosexuality are bad. Homosexual sex, heterosexual sex, bestiality, and necrophilia are all expressive means of gaining mutual (when possible) physical pleasure when performed under common consent and do no harm, right?

Basically, but not entirely.

The difference between bestiality and homosexual sex is that the latter takes place between two people of (relatively) shared cognitive level, while bestiality reflects an inability for the person to sustain productive relationships with someone of equal mental ability. It usually accompanies other symptoms of poor social productivity and cooperation with others. The same can be said about necrophilia. Other than the aspect of unconsented bestiality/necrophilia, it is not the act itself that can be classified as wrong, but the surrounding unhealthy psychological makeup of an individual.

When applied to homosexuality, this distinction between healthy and unhealthy sex is shown to not be arbitrary, and to allow for same-sex intimacy between psychosocially healthy individuals. It does no harm and is not the product of an unhealthy psyche seeking escape from healthy relationships between (relatively) equal partners, as I believe any psychological testing of an averaged group of homosexual individuals would show (perhaps if it doesn't, this may reflect a societally pressured negative influence).

[1n50mn14]

Thank you, Logos and Niamh

[dramasnot6]

I think the Bible was written by men and that is the reason for such homophobia in it. Men who were probably meeting up with their buddies and keeping it on the down low. If homosexuality was such a terrible sin, why isn't it mentioned in the Ten Commandments? In my church we are taught not to judge others. What I don't understand is why it would be anyones business? I couldn't care less who is having sex with who unless it was my significant other. I guess I've so many problems of my own the worry about that I don't have time to worry about things that don't concern me.

Wise words, Granny!

[Shalot]

The Bible is an old book, and while there is a lot of wisdom in it, I personally cannot deal with the whole "homosexuality is an abomination" belief/teaching. I've probably said this many times on this forums, but I went to Catholic schools and had the discussion with the priests about why birth control is a sin and why homosexuality is a sin, and why sex is before marriage is a sin. And I got the speech about doubting Thomas and came away with the feeling that I had to accept what I was being told without question. However, through my own personal experiences and the people I have met, I have come to my own conclusions about homosexuality and sex before marriage and birth control (btw: one religioun teacher gave us this absolutley gross explanation for why sex is only allowed in marriage between men and women but I won't tell you - but those three sins listed above are all related to it :sick: and I started to think then that there is nothing more queer than some of those teachings :p ). Anyway, to me, those versus the OP quoted are just versus from an old book. I know that sounds terrible and probably someone is praying for me right now, but I think we all know what is truly right in our hearts. And one last thing, God forgives.

[kiz_paws]

Who says that sex was only for reproduction: Heb.13
[4] Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

This is a strong statement. Between married couples, what you do in bed is your business, but this is couples, and in the Bible, heterosexual couples. But notice it condemns pure recreational sex outside of a couple in the bonds of marriage, and jumps people besides homosexuals!

Homosexuality is condemned by the Bible, but as I say, I am not their judge and have never said anything to a friend on here I knew was gay or lesbian. This was not because I have no concern for their soul, they know me to be a minister, if they have questions they will ask me. I will not single them out based on their sexuality for a sermon.

I will go so far as this: Had I a church (how I wish!) and the homosexuals came, so long as they did not try to convert others to their way of living (they really believed you are born gay), if they could stand my preaching knowing I disagreed with their life styles, but showed them the Love of God, they would be as welcome as anyone. If my preaching the word of God didn't run them off, then they were depending on God's Grace and who am I to say them nay, God won't have Grace on you. I am not God, and He said "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy,”.

They throw out the homosexual and the adulterer and the fornicators sit on the front rows and hold offices in the church. Sin is sin! It is all covered under sexual sin in the Bible and was all punishable by stoning! I learned a lesson back in 9th grade from a Chinese Student Teacher: One sin is not worth 2 points and another worth 4. God considers it all sin. One is as bad as the other.

Why can’t we just come to the point and say, the blood of Christ was shed for all sin, if the homosexual cannot be forgiven neither can I.

God Bless

PenI don't know if I have ever read a better response than I have today. Pen, I salute you. Your closing lines made me misty. Thank god for people like you. Amen

[Virgil]

I think the Bible was written by men and that is the reason for such homophobia in it.

Huh? :confused: Are you saying that there aren't women who are put off by homosexuality? Because i know many. ;)

[Redzeppelin]

I look at it this way:

The Bible offers many lists of things that are called "sins." A "sin" is a voluntary action, a conscious choice that an individual makes. Examples of sins listed in the Bible: drunkenness, adultery, murder, theft, lying, envy, sorcery, malice, assault, incest, etc.

The Bible also lists homosexuality as a sin. Now, if the Bible is a humanly created document, then its authority to declare homosexuality a "sin" may be challenged IF and only IF it can be definitively proven that homosexuality is a genetic condition and not a choice or the result of many other choices that eventually resulted in the choice of the homosexual lifestyle. If, however, the Bible is a divinely inspired document, then we can assume that homosexuality is a sin in that it is - like other sins - a choice.

Because I see the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, I must assume - against popular cultural sentiment and numerous testimonies as to the "inevitable" or "unavoidable" feelings many homosexuals have claimed - that homosexuality is a choice, or the result of a choice(s) just as other sins are.

God could not be just if He labled as a sin a behavior that was not freely chosen by the individual.

Unfortunately, the strong conviction of many homosexuals that their orientation is "who they are" isn't conclusive proof that what they feel is necessarily an unavoidable biological fact. IT may simply be how they feel (albiet a very strong feeling).

It just seems odd to me that few people would argue with just about any other listed sin in terms of it being a conscious choice and an inappropriate behavior, and few would argue that these sins weren't the result of individual choices, but - for some reason - people argue that homosexuality is different - but why is it different?

[Il Penseroso]

I think people look at it differently because it really harms no one, unlike those other sins you referred to. Other than perhaps sorcery, which is a form of deception (causing harm), homosexuality is the only sin you listed that has no negative ramifications on either individuals or society - in fact it has positive effects, including safe parenting households for adopted children.

[Etienne]

Because I see the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, I must assume - against popular cultural sentiment and numerous testimonies as to the "inevitable" or "unavoidable" feelings many homosexuals have claimed - that homosexuality is a choice, or the result of a choice(s) just as other sins are.

How do you account for homosexuals who: fight with this "choice" and never "go out of the closet (even toward themselves)", or for depressions sometimes leading as far as suicide in people that discover their "choice"? They just decide like this: well, I'm going to be homosexual today?

Do you also believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie? And following what you have said, would you agree with calling it blind faith, if not, how is it not blind faith?

[dzebra]

...including safe parenting households for adopted children.

Though you were talking about safety, by which I figure you mean lack of abuse, I want to point out that children need both a mother and father figure to get full benefit of parenting. Mothers play a role that fathers can't fill, and fathers play a role that mothers cannot fill. Lack of one will deprive a child, I think. I think that's one of the reasons it's good that homosexuals cannot have children, because they can't offer the ideal situation for raising children. Yes, this also mean that I prefer two parents to any single parents (which means no premarital sex, and no killing of people who have children, and no divorce).

[NikolaiI]

Though you were talking about safety, by which I figure you mean lack of abuse, I want to point out that children need both a mother and father figure to get full benefit of parenting. Mothers play a role that fathers can't fill, and fathers play a role that mothers cannot fill. Lack of one will deprive a child, I think. I think that's one of the reasons it's good that homosexuals cannot have children, because they can't offer the ideal situation for raising children. Yes, this also mean that I prefer two parents to any single parents (which means no premarital sex, and no killing of people who have children, and no divorce).

I believe you are right but do you think a child could be raised by God? :)

[Pygmy Twylyte]

A "sin" is a voluntary action, a conscious choice that an individual makes.


The majority of Christians I have seen arguing against homosexuality have been clean-shaven for some reason.

Leviticus 19:27
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Leviticus 19:37
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.

While there is much more in the Bible condemning homosexuality than shaving your beard, people seem to glaze over the more inconvenient laws like this and see only what they want to.

[papayahed]

Because I see the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, I must assume - against popular cultural sentiment and numerous testimonies as to the "inevitable" or "unavoidable" feelings many homosexuals have claimed - that homosexuality is a choice, or the result of a choice(s) just as other sins are.



Can you choose who you fall in love with? Do you choose to find someone handsome/beautiful? I can't, so why wouldn't that same premise apply to a homosexual?

[Granny5]

Huh? :confused: Are you saying that there aren't women who are put off by homosexuality? Because i know many. ;)

Virgil, I can completely understand why men are attracted to other men. Hey, maybe I'm homosexual cause I really like my man. No, what I believe is that men wrote the Bible. If we had books in the Bible written by Sarah or Mary or Eve, maybe we'd all see thing differently. If we all just went along with the way the world is see by men, where would women be right now? We have to look at the Bible as a history book as well as "the word of God" and understand that men were completely in charge of what was in it and how it was worded. Not just the men who wrote it, but the men who copied it for hundreds of years. I just can't believe that some scribe somewhere saw something he didn't approve of and change it or someone didn't misinterpret a word or two along the way. Homosexuals do not scare me as they seem to some men. I have very goods friends who are gay and they are wonderful people, both men and women.

I truly believe that being homosexual in no more a sin than being born with Downs or with blue eyes or red hair. This is the way folks are born and they have no choice, in MHO. Why would someone chose to live a life filled with discrimination and hate? Why would anyone man or woman choose to be treated as "sinners" and shunned by "saints"? It's a hard life, especially in small towns across the country. You don't see threads like this about straight people, do you? Every difference has been treated as sinful at some time in history. Witches were burned, mentally ill people were treated as possessed, people with birthmarks were treated as the devil's child. How can this be any different? It's how people feel about the fellow man/woman that makes them sinners or saints.
This is the 21st century. I find it hard to believe that this is still being debated.

[Redzeppelin]

How do you account for homosexuals who: fight with this "choice" and never "go out of the closet (even toward themselves)", or for depressions sometimes leading as far as suicide in people that discover their "choice"? They just decide like this: well, I'm going to be homosexual today?

Do you also believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie? And following what you have said, would you agree with calling it blind faith, if not, how is it not blind faith?

You will note that I said "choices" or "a series of choices." I believe that people who chose the homosexual lifestyle do so as a result of many choices that began years before they ever actually embraced such an "identitiy."

Feelings are not necessarily reality; they are simply that: feelings. Without even using the Bible or Christianity, I would answer the same. That homosexuals strongly feel the weight of their "orientation" is something I won't dispute; what I question is the de facto assumption that because they feel strongly and because it feels so overpowering that it simply must be something they have no choice in doing. I question that - and science has not yet proven at any convincing level that homosexuality is beyond the realm of human choice.

Like any destructive lifestyle choice, I would expect that people who struggle with their "orientation" without seeking help would suffer some significant emotional trauma.

This discussion is not about the rest of the Bible - and I detect a thinly veiled attempt to discredit my view based on some parts of the Bible which you obviously find hard to accept. "Blind faith" has nothing to do with it - logic and nature pretty much do the job without even needing the Bible.


The majority of Christians I have seen arguing against homosexuality have been clean-shaven for some reason.

Leviticus 19:27
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Leviticus 19:37
Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.

While there is much more in the Bible condemning homosexuality than shaving your beard, people seem to glaze over the more inconvenient laws like this and see only what they want to.

Nice try. This is standard practice - to go hunt out minute points from Leviticus and then wag the finger and say "well, then you need to keep all the laws Mr. Hypocrit." Please - spare me. Do not quote a law whose intent, motivation, context and use you may not even understand. Leviticus is a mixture of ceremonial and moral law. Don't confuse the two. Hair and food and clothing are ceremonial and non-binding; sexuality is (and always has been) a moral issue - and moral law is always binding.



Can you choose who you fall in love with? Do you choose to find someone handsome/beautiful? I can't, so why wouldn't that same premise apply to a homosexual?

I have a problem with the phrase "fall in love" - it implies that love is an unconcious act that may be beyond my choice. We may not chose who we are attracted to or who we are infatuated with - but we do choose whom we love.

"Attraction" cannot be the basis of legitimacy - because some men are attracted to pre-teen girls and some people are attracted to their blood sibling. Attraction doesn't legitimize the desire - it simply means "you appeal to me." If you've ever wandered the web, you'll note there are some pretty scary and disgusting things that some people find "attractive" or sexually exciting. Would you say their attraction to "x" makes their desire appropriate?

[Granny5]

Though you were talking about safety, by which I figure you mean lack of abuse, I want to point out that children need both a mother and father figure to get full benefit of parenting. Mothers play a role that fathers can't fill, and fathers play a role that mothers cannot fill. Lack of one will deprive a child, I think. I think that's one of the reasons it's good that homosexuals cannot have children, because they can't offer the ideal situation for raising children. Yes, this also mean that I prefer two parents to any single parents (which means no premarital sex, and no killing of people who have children, and no divorce).

In a perfect world every child would have a loving mother and father. In the real world, mothers are raising wonderful children without the assistance of the men who fathered the children and most of the time it's the father's choice and the same is true for many men raising children alone. It's silly to think that it would be better for a child to live a life without loving parents, whether the parents are a male or a female, a male and female, two males, two females, whatever. One loving parent is better than no loving parent. Too many children are left in foster homes or orphanages because of outdated ideas that no parent is better than a loving parent(s). This harms only children. What ever would make someone deprive a child of a loving home? Didn't Jesus say something about Judge not least you be judge?

[Etienne]

You will note that I said "choices" or "a series of choices." I believe that people who chose the homosexual lifestyle do so as a result of many choices that began years before they ever actually embraced such an "identitiy."

You have the picture in your mind of the pink dressing, lips-and-tongue talking homosexual that tell his sex life to everyone he meets while making dubious jokes... but many homosexuals actually look more virile than many heterosexuals. Does your reasoning also apply to teenagers? Your reasoning is so flawed in so many ways, but yet, I know, you have to struggle to keep that belief.

Do animals also choose their lifestyle too before they become homosexuals?

Oh, and you haven't answered my question: Do you believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie? Unless you don't believe those thing, your reasoning (that homosexuality is a choice because the Bible said it and the Bible is the word of God, thus necessarily true) is quite hypocritical.

[kiz_paws]

Do animals also choose their lifestyle too before they become homosexuals?

Oh, and you haven't answered my question: Do you believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and that evolution is a lie? Unless you don't believe those thing, your reasoning (that homosexuality is a choice because the Bible said it and the Bible is the word of God, thus necessarily true) is quite hypocritical.With all due respect, Etienne, I don't see how this relays back to Becca's original quest:


[Becca] I do not, however, understand how the Bible can preach compassion and tolerance and acceptance when it can not accept homosexuality.

This is not a thread I want to get heated or angry.

I'm simply bewildered by those who can't accept homosexuality. It's not a choice. It's genetic. I want to understand WHY there's a lack of acceptance.

[Niamh]

Can we please refrain for personalising this discussion and discuss what is asked in the original post. I didnt think it was a hard request in previous mod notes to NOT make it personal.:)

[Virgil]

Virgil, I can completely understand why men are attracted to other men.
:lol: Well, what can I say. Frankly, though I don't discriminate or treat anyone differently, I can't understand it. It seems to violate the rules of biology. If and when I meet God, it will definitely be on my list of questions I want to ask. ;) And I think you copped out on my original question as to why you think it can only be men that are put off by homosexuality.



I truly believe that being homosexual in no more a sin than being born with Downs or with blue eyes or red hair. This is the way folks are born and they have no choice, in MHO.
I'm not a theological expert to really say whether it is a sin or not. I guess if it's listed in the Bible as such then either one accepts the Bible or not. Whether one is born with it or not, I can't really tell. I accept those who tell me from their homosexual experience that it is. But I also know some, all women actually but I think there have been cases in the news of men too, who suddenly discover in mid life, after marriage and children that they are homosexual. If it is so ingrained that one is genetically born with it, how can one not know until mid life, and actually going through marriage and children? Putting on my scientist hat for a second, it doesn't have to be either or. It could be some are born that way and some develop or evolve. Whatever it is it's complicated.

[ForzaSugar]

Can you choose who you fall in love with? Do you choose to find someone handsome/beautiful? I can't, so why wouldn't that same premise apply to a homosexual?

Actually we do choose who we gonna fall in love with.


Putting on my scientist hat for a second.

I didn't know you are a scientist Virgil. What's your expert?

[Sweets America]

:lol: Well, what can I say. Frankly, though I don't discriminate or treat anyone differently, I can't understand it. It seems to violate the rules of biology. If and when I meet God, it will definitely be on my list of questions I want to ask. ;) And I think you copped out on my original question as to why you think it can only be men that are put off by homosexuality.
Who cares about biology?:p Love is love, and it's a very complicated matter. It's not about biology to me. I don't think there are rules either, or maybe if there are rules, those can be different to everyone.


But I also know some, all women actually but I think there have been cases in the news of men too, who suddenly discover in mid life, after marriage and children that they are homosexual. If it is so ingrained that one is genetically born with it, how can one not know until mid life, and actually going through marriage and children? Putting on my scientist hat for a second, it doesn't have to be either or. It could be some are born that way and some develop or evolve. Whatever it is it's complicated.[/QUOTE]

Maybe some men repressed the fact that they were gay because they were too scared of being rejected by society. It is understandable even if it is sad. Maybe some of them also repressed it because they themselves couldn't stand being this way if for instance they were raised with the idea that it was bad. Then, as life passes and they mature, they might grow stronger and accept that this is the way they are, and they can start living for themselves and not for a society or a religion which rejects them.


Actually we do choose who we gonna fall in love with.

It's not really a choice to me. If it were a choice, we could also choose to stop loving someone. And personally I am incapable of doing that. If love were a mere choice, it would not hurt that much.
Now of course in a way we fall in love with people who somehow correspond with what we like, but really, to me the word choice is really not the right one. Why would someone choose to fall in love with someone they can't be with, or someone who lives miles away from them?

[1n50mn14]

I do not believe love is a choice. (I am also a hopeless romantic.) If love were a choice, I don't think it would cause you pain. I don't think people would stay in abusive relationships if they could choose to stop loving the person they were with.

[ForzaSugar]

we could also choose to stop loving someone.

I actually did that. I guess it's related to person's will-power.


If love were a mere choice, it would not hurt that much.

Love doesn't hurt, rejection hurts.


Why would someone choose to fall in love with someone they can't be with.

Some people are too scared to be in a real two person relationship, or so unsafe that they wouldn't like to give a piece of their heart to someone else. Or they may just prefer platonic love because they like the idea of ideal love, a platonic love is a perfect love, don't miss that.


I don't think people would stay in abusive relationships if they could choose to stop loving the person they were with.

It's not love, love is building, not destructive. In your case it's called addiction.

[hellsapoppin]

Contrary to Christian teaching, homosexuality was not the principle crime at Sodom and Gomorrah. See Rev Robert Arthur's excellent essay Homosexuality and the Bible - A Study Addressing the Conservative Christian Perspective.

It is available on pdf thru agcmcc.org

There are no degrees of sin. If homosexuality is sin and must be punished by an intolerant society, *edit* . Selectivity in enforcement is not taught the Bible.

[Sweets America]

I actually did that. I guess it's related to person's will-power.
Well, perhaps it depends on everyone then, I am not saying that everyone reacts like me towards love. But I think that if I could choose who I fall in love with, love would lose some of its mystery.


Love doesn't hurt, rejection hurts.
I agree.


Some people are too scared to be in a real two person relationship, or so unsafe that they wouldn't like to give a piece of their heart to someone else. Or they may just prefer platonic love because they like the idea of ideal love, a platonic love is a perfect love, don't miss that.
I don't see why platonic love would be perfect love? We must have different definitions on this point.


It's not love, love is building, not destructive. In your case it's called addiction.
True. But sometimes love is more complicated than that. And there is always some part of addiction in love, I think. Possessiveness, and all that.

[Virgil]

I didn't know you are a scientist Virgil. What's your expert?

I'm a mechanical engineer.


Contrary to Christian teaching, homosexuality was not the principle crime at Sodom and Gomorrah. See Rev Robert Arthur's excellent essay Homosexuality and the Bible - A Study Addressing the Conservative Christian Perspective.

It is available on pdf thru agcmcc.org

There are no degrees of sin. If homosexuality is sin and must be punished by an intolerant society, Selectivity in enforcement is not taught the Bible.

What are you talking about? No one is talking about punishing anyone.

[Anza]

Quote Sweets: It's not really a choice to me. If it were a choice, we could also choose to stop loving someone.

Ah, such undeniable truth in so little words. I have encountered that. There is no arguement against it, if you've known it... but that goes into somehing else.

As far as I'm concerned about homosexuality... what's it to me? What have they ever done to me? What they do in their own lives, and under their own roofs is none of my business or my concern.

[Nightshade]

yet again Sodom and Gomorrah have popped up, I really need to find out our equivelent to them...for years I wrongly assumed they were the yaggog and magoog , apparantly not.

You know what I dont understand? How come people make such a fuss about something that a) doesnt concern them and b) doesnt harm them.
When itt comes down to it if it is a sin then it only concerns IMO the people directly involved and God Himself everyone else should leave well enough alone and clean their own windows first. You cant force someone into heaven or hell, persecuting people will not win anyone any points and in the end when ( or possibley if , if thats the way you want to look at it) God comes to meet out justice he hardly going to ask a human for advice now is He?

And on the oppposite side of the argument, it must be observed that some of the intolerance may rise from a genuine desire to not see a fellow human being suffer possible eternal agony, and if someon really belives that then well *Shrug* It is never an excuse for intolerance but it may be a reason behind it.

and back to the OP why is there intolerance?
earlier I was sitting on the train when something someone said in the carriage brought aproverb/anallogy/story type thing to mind.... there is this saying that only he who is free of sin my cast a stone ( as in stone someone) and that leads to the tunnel that often is it that the guy throwing the hardest stone is the one with the most to hide? It was just a thought.:)

[Orionsbelt]

Congrats to every Nice discussion on what could be a messy subject.

While this is a bit semantic I have to say that the bible doesn't preach anything, people read it, and they preach. What is written in that book is the record of a culture that once lived long ago. The apparent conflict with current Christian teaching for compassion came along with Jesus and later. It may be impossible to reconcile his ideals of compassion with those ideals of the early bible writings. History indicates that other cultures were somewhat more tolerant. In some it is never addressed at all. That fact makes me think it wasn't an issue. It certainly existed.

I had a friend once long ago who was struggling with whether he was homosexual or not. He was in fact attracted to men and had been since adolescence. However, he felt tremendous pressure to conform. It was a troubling time for him. I have to tell you that it set me back on my heels when he began to discuss this subject with me. I have lost track of him. So, I don't know how it all worked out. I can say from observation that I don’t think it was something he would choose to confront. Rather, he would have preferred the whole thing to go away. It was however a critical part of him discovering who he was in the world.

I personally believe that it will be found one day to be genetic. The faithful will accuse science of undermining values in society and the world will be ending again. On the other hand, the scientist will be accusing the faithful being illogical and stubborn. The Buddha will smile. I have to say that for the most part I agree with the people that ask why do you bother about what amounts to nobody else's business.

[Dark Star]

Though you were talking about safety, by which I figure you mean lack of abuse, I want to point out that children need both a mother and father figure to get full benefit of parenting. Mothers play a role that fathers can't fill, and fathers play a role that mothers cannot fill. Lack of one will deprive a child, I think. I think that's one of the reasons it's good that homosexuals cannot have children, because they can't offer the ideal situation for raising children.

Actually, studies on this subject done by psychologists on a number of children up to their teenage years reveal that there is virtually no psychological difference between a child raised by a homosexual couple and one raised by a heterosexual couple. The only noticable 'difference' was that the ones raised by the former tended to be, in the words of the study 'more open-minded to difference among their peers'.

[Etienne]

With all due respect, Etienne, I don't see how this relays back to Becca's original quest:

I said the reasoning was hypocritical, which was meant as a figurative way (a reasoning cannot be hypocritical literally, only people can be). I'm not angry (maybe I sounded heated? I believe I often sound heated, I don't like wasting my time on flowers, unless they are well-deserved) especially considering that I am not personally (nor anyone dear to me, that I know of) aimed by the subject of this topic...

But I can add a "With all due respect" as well if you feel it's important, but it is implied in most of my posts, I just don't feel like starting and ending my posts with matter of forms all the time. I'll blame the fact that English is not my first language (oh what an excuse, I know, but that might comfort some people) on my perhaps raw writing.

No harm meant, only face (screen) to face (screen) and honest explanations, which are worth more than words of form to me, but maybe I should put a notice as a signature to amend this. Maybe if I do that Virgil will stop sulking me!

[kiz_paws]

Fair enough, Etienne. But I just read and thought that instead of you and Red Zep going off on a tangent about biblical teachings, and questions therein, I thought that it would be in Becca's best interest to just stick to her question, pure and simple. Your writing is not raw. you are well spoken, and your thoughts would make for very good discussion on biblical teachings, I think, but not necessarily here. Thanks :)

[Etienne]

But you will admit that the question I seek answer for is legitimate and very pertinent as well. I admit it's a bit cruel as it doesn't leave much room for him. I may lack Socrate's skills of midwifery, but a cesarean section still produces the baby, only, it's more bloody. Sorry for the scars.

[kiz_paws]

But you will admit that the question I seek answer for is legitimate and very pertinent as well. I admit it's a bit cruel as it doesn't leave much room for him. I may lack Socrate's skills of midwifery, but a cesarean section still produces the baby, only, it's more bloody. Sorry for the scars.ha ha, see? You ARE well spoken! Take care, Kizzo :)

[hellsapoppin]

``No one is talking about punishing anyone.``

They shouldn't. But note that certain posts have made reference to destruction and other things which are not conducive to positivity in society. Luckily, some have been deleted.

[Virgil]

I had a friend once long ago who was struggling with whether he was homosexual or not. He was in fact attracted to men and had been since adolescence. However, he felt tremendous pressure to conform. It was a troubling time for him. I have to tell you that it set me back on my heels when he began to discuss this subject with me. I have lost track of him. So, I don't know how it all worked out. I can say from observation that I don’t think it was something he would choose to confront. Rather, he would have preferred the whole thing to go away. It was however a critical part of him discovering who he was in the world.

I personally believe that it will be found one day to be genetic. ...

But your story about your friend and the statement in the next paragrapgh don't seem to follow. The fact that your friend was unsure suggests that it's not genetic. I can tell you about my heterosexuality. I knew it from the beginning, from my first arousal.

[Metanoia]

Why is it wrong to be homosexual? They're not harming anyone, and yet day after day they are harassed. Alot of people think its a choice to be homosexual. I've known plenty of gay/bi people and it's not a choice for them, its not something they can just get rid of or suppress, it's who they are. My homosexual friends are good people who have perfectly functional lives. There are so many homosexual people who are afraid to come out of "the closet" because the world doesn't approve of their lifestyle. So they live a miserable life, pretending to be someone they're not. Why can't we just accept people that are different? Because the Bible says it's a "sin"? It seems silly to follow every word of a book that was writen so long ago(most likely by men) and seems so prejudice against those who follow a alternate path. I don't see "God" condeming people to hell for their sexual preferance's. Besides, for all we know Jesus was homosexual...

[kiz_paws]

Besides, for all we know Jesus was homosexual... ummmmm ... this seems to be a loaded statement ...

[dzebra]

If Jesus was born with the same genetics of someone who would today claim that they are genetically homosexual, then he was completely willing and able to do what it took to follow what he said and not engage in homosexuality. Maybe he was born with those genes, and his life was proof that following the will of God is more important than following your own desires.

[JBI]

The fact that the original poster says homosexuality is genetic to me seems homophobic. Seeing as there is no evidence decisive evidence on the matter, the belief that homosexuals are born that way, and therefore homosexuality is o.k. is not only a disturbing, but an insulting argument. It's like saying, "You chose something, but we think you were born like that, so we can accept you, because you didn't give birth to yourself."

[Etienne]

But your story about your friend and the statement in the next paragrapgh don't seem to follow. The fact that your friend was unsure suggests that it's not genetic. I can tell you about my heterosexuality. I knew it from the beginning, from my first arousal.

I think he meant he was unsure about "going out of the closet", as living what he is, or "playing the role" of an homosexual.


The fact that the original poster says homosexuality is genetic to me seems homophobic. Seeing as there is no evidence decisive evidence on the matter, the belief that homosexuals are born that way, and therefore homosexuality is o.k. is not only a disturbing, but an insulting argument. It's like saying, "You chose something, but we think you were born like that, so we can accept you, because you didn't give birth to yourself."

What the hell are you talking about...... I'm censoring myself here...

[NikolaiI]

I just don't feel to strongly about it one way or the other....and I don't feel to strongly about that, either.

[jon1jt]

I think civil unions are a beautiful thing.

[Metanoia]

If Jesus was born with the same genetics of someone who would today claim that they are genetically homosexual, then he was completely willing and able to do what it took to follow what he said and not engage in homosexuality. Maybe he was born with those genes, and his life was proof that following the will of God is more important than following your own desires.

How do you know Jesus did not engage in homosexuality? How do you know he was "completly willing and able" to abstain from homosexual pleasures of the flesh? Is there some kind of poof that Jesus was celibate in order to "follow the will of God"?? And further more, why would God even instill these "desires" into Jesus if he didn't want him to do anything with them? Well, that seems rather cruel to me, God gives Jesus lustfull feelings to test him... but he can't act on them. Thats like setting a bowl full of candy in front of your child and saying " You can look but never touch or taste" If this is how God thinks and performs his "all mighty wisdom" I think I'll stick with the Devil, he lets me do fun things and he's not so up-tight. :)

[Pendragon]

I would say the dividing line between being born that way and doing it by choice is the way you act. There are many heterosexual people who cannot control themselves sexually and become deviants. There is something off in their genetic makeup that causes them to act that way.

A homosexual born would be almost certainly drawn to love a single person and settle down as would a normal person. When we see these gay clubs and the open promiscuity and things, something is missing from their makeup to cause them to want to act that way. Are they different from heterosexuals? I think I have just proven that they are not.

The “something’s missing so I’m willing to try anything, make a complete utter sexual fool of myself and maybe someone will love me” syndrome strikes both the straight and the homosexual. It is a mental illness .

[ForzaSugar]

The “something’s missing so I’m willing to try anything, make a complete utter sexual fool of myself and maybe someone will love me” syndrome strikes both the straight and the homosexual. It is a mental illness .

That's a very good explanation uncle Pen. Although i would like to say it's not mental illness even though it's pathetic psychological situation. That's why this kind of situations are more common in west. Because family concept is working wrong and individualism creating lonely people, it's related to capitalism in many ways.

[Virgil]

I think he meant he was unsure about "going out of the closet", as living what he is, or "playing the role" of an homosexual.


No, you're abslutely wrong. These aare Orion's exact words:

I had a friend once long ago who was struggling with whether he was homosexual or not.

[Logos]

Closed because this topic has really had very little to do with 'religion' or a specific religious text. (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410)