Explain Poetry

[Shalot]

I like reading poetry, but I am always too afraid to write it because I am sort of afraid of it. It seems like poetry should have rhythm and rhyme scheme and I learned about iambic pentameter but that's just a term to me. I have no sense of rhythm whatsoever (I don't dance or sing or play any instruments because I just don't get it). Is it necessary to be aware of these things when writing poetry?

Because to someone like me, some poems just seem like random words and phrases all centering around one theme or topic or idea, and they're arranged on a page in chopped up, broken off lines, and if I were to attempt to write a poem myself, that's the kind of poem I would write. My poem wouldn't rhyme it all. If I came up with a rhyme it would sound like this: I love you, You love me, up and down the sugar tree :p (stolen from Boogie Nights).

So, some of you on this forum write wonderful poems and they rhyme and seem to have rhythm. What are your thoughts on this? Is free form poetry crap? Where does your poetry come from?

~ Signed

Poetically Challanged

[crazefest456]

none of the so-called "poetry" I've written so far(about 2 :p) has any rhyme scheme. I've learnt alot about it but I don't know how to channel my emotions in that form. I'm pretty awkward...and robotic. I need help too with writing poetry. I'm glad I'm not alone, though...

~also poetically challenged

[ShadowID]

I imagine that the definition of poetry is unknown to the greatest poets as well as to the poetically challenged. That is most likely allure to the subject.

Poetry constrasts with prose in the sense that it doesn't need to follow a gramatical structure. This facet can be used gracefully or abused to a bloody pulp. It depends on the skill and technique of the writer.

However, what is "skill" and "technique"? And why doesn't everyone write in prose.

Before I get into that, I'd like to say that poetry's roots are probably in music (I remember my english professor saying this along time ago but I don't have a reference). The musical root gives the rhyme and rhythm to the poetry. Since music has set bars, measures, and structure, words to fit the musical notes and beats must have a similar stucture. For very structural poetry (like a sonnet), there can be a "template" musical theme in the background so poets can concentrate on the words without worrying about the music.

Now, why not write the musical lyrics in prose form? Well, the constraint of prose is that it must follow the rules of grammar. Grammar is important if you wish to get specific details out in a communicatible manner. Saying "I went to the store" is more understandable than "to the went store me". If there were another language with different rules, the latter could possibly be understood.

So what's so bad about grammar? More communcation is always good, no? Yes and no. Language has a great limit. When I say "red" I am probably thinking of a particular shade of red. However, you may be thinking of a different shade of red. As a result, the full concept of "red" is not perfectly conveyed. If I said, "dark red", we may get closer to matching our ideas but we still may differ. Language itself has a limit on how we can convey ideas.

Grammar has limits also. Gramatical limits such as "I went to the store" forces the reader to think "I" first and not the "store". As a result, I may wish to convey the concept of "store" first for whatever reason. So a poetic way I would say "I went to the store" could be:

The store,
I went.

I could have the rest of the poem talking about how I dread going to the store, which is why I emphasize the store first.

The store,
I went.
How dreadful
the store.

And with poetry, I'm able to "sandwhich" the concept of "the store" with the words "I went," and "How dreadful". The idea of "store" resonantes in the beginning to the end. Now, look at the prose form:

The store, I went. How dreadful the store.

It's not very gramatical. Furthermore, if we fix it up, look at what happens:

I went to the store. I found it dreadful.

Eh, I may not want to emphasize "me". I may want to emphasize the "store". As a result, the grammar really wreaks what I'm trying to do. Poetry offers me the freedom to discard grammar, or tweak grammar in such a way to emphasize concepts, allowing me to free the rules in which I communicate with.

Of course, it should be taken seriously. When you get rid of grammar, you have a chance of not being understood at all. Which is why, I believe, that great poets know grammar very well and know when to break the rules and when not to break the rules. It's about communication.

Here's another link of my exploration of why certain words are chosen over another:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31325

And at the end, I may be wrong with what I think of poetry.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I like reading poetry, but I am always too afraid to write it because I am sort of afraid of it. It seems like poetry should have rhythm and rhyme scheme and I learned about iambic pentameter but that's just a term to me. I have no sense of rhythm whatsoever (I don't dance or sing or play any instruments because I just don't get it). Is it necessary to be aware of these things when writing poetry?

Because to someone like me, some poems just seem like random words and phrases all centering around one theme or topic or idea, and they're arranged on a page in chopped up, broken off lines, and if I were to attempt to write a poem myself, that's the kind of poem I would write. My poem wouldn't rhyme it all. If I came up with a rhyme it would sound like this: I love you, You love me, up and down the sugar tree :p (stolen from Boogie Nights).

So, some of you on this forum write wonderful poems and they rhyme and seem to have rhythm. What are your thoughts on this? Is free form poetry crap? Where does your poetry come from?

~ Signed

Poetically Challanged

Good for you for a) WANTING to write poetry and b) being so candid about what you perceive to be your deficiencies. ShadowID's message #3 is full of really good suggestions.

The only thing I would add to that is read, read, read - the poets here and in some contemporary anthology. Don't worry about understanding each one perfectly. One of the things that poetry can and often does so is operate in a sort of shadow-land between rational conscious thought and those intuitions - half-formed ideas - that exist in our subconscious. When you get around to your first attempts, allow yourself to be silly - the sillier the better - and also to express your bafflement at life, at love, at injustice. Rage, if you feel like it; or whimper...

A phrase might occur to you, a seemingly meaningless phrase. Allow yourself to explore it. Listen to whatever music it contains. Almost all of English contains a quantity of music, some of it strong, some more subtle...

Above all, think of it as a form of play: serious play at times, or play of a high order.

[Virgil]

I like reading poetry, but I am always too afraid to write it because I am sort of afraid of it. It seems like poetry should have rhythm and rhyme scheme and I learned about iambic pentameter but that's just a term to me. I have no sense of rhythm whatsoever (I don't dance or sing or play any instruments because I just don't get it). Is it necessary to be aware of these things when writing poetry?

I don't think it's necessary to know those things at first to start writing. Over time you will grow to it. Several places on the forum we discussed rhythm and rhyme. In fact babrabra and i had a little discussion of it toward the end of the thread on my poem "That Last Christmas." Here: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31455&highlight=Christmas. The last couple of pages I think.


Because to someone like me, some poems just seem like random words and phrases all centering around one theme or topic or idea, and they're arranged on a page in chopped up, broken off lines, and if I were to attempt to write a poem myself, that's the kind of poem I would write. My poem wouldn't rhyme it all. If I came up with a rhyme it would sound like this: I love you, You love me, up and down the sugar tree :p (stolen from Boogie Nights).
The most fundemental thing you must remember (in my opinion) is that poetry is charged language. No one naturally speaks or writes in meter or rhyme. Meter and/or rhyme is one approach to charging the language. There are other approaches, imagery, turns of phrases, puns, anything that stimulates the language. What i mean by charging is that the language of poetry steps beyond mundane or cliche or common. But that doesn't mean it's unnatural either (I should say that before some jumps on me :p ), although it can be.


So, some of you on this forum write wonderful poems and they rhyme and seem to have rhythm. What are your thoughts on this? Is free form poetry crap? Where does your poetry come from?
No poetic form is crap. Poetic form is associated with aesthetic statements. Just like renaissance painting has a different aesthetic form than say impressionism, so too do poetic forms make certain statements. I wouldn't worry about this too much for now. If i were you I would seek a form that feels comfortable for you to start with. Then i would emulate established poems, with your thoughts and ideas, until you felt comfortable trying another. And it doesn't have to be a lot of poems; one or two per style is probably enough. Once you get the hang of several poetic styles, then you'll find what's best for your voice.


~ Signed

Poetically Challanged
Not challenged, but learning. :) Oh and yes as Prince says, read and try to understand how the poet worked his poem. Poetry, as I've defined it in a couple of places, is the art of crafting language. It's a craft, like needlepoint or woodworking. One has to build one's craft skills. It doesn't come by magic. I hope this helped.

[Pendragon]

Well I'm a rhymer, and many of my poems will flow with rhyme. The only thing I say about it is don't fall into the problem of force rhyme. Like so:

I crosed the river in the pale moonlight,
For the Yankees were headed for Richmond.
If I could just get that General lined up in my sights,
It might slow down their march, so I froze to my gun.

See, that rhyme flows correctly.

But.

I crossed the river in the pale moonlight,
For the Yankees were camped now, and I'd get my chance.
If I could kill their General, it would delay them a few nights.
Well, enter the sniper, named Darby Yance...

You know how long it took me to come up with the unlikely name of Darby Yance? Choose words that flow easily.

Pen

[PrinceMyshkin]

as Prince says, read and try to understand how the poet worked his poem. Poetry, as I've defined it in a couple of places, is the art of crafting language. It's a craft, like needlepoint or woodworking. One has to build one's craft skills. It doesn't come by magic. I hope this helped.

I am more of the belief that what one needs to know and can use (by no means the same thing) can be absorbed, without conscious study. Read enough poetry and those poems that ring true for you will seep into your subconscious. Don't sweat the craft: that will tend to show.

[AuntShecky]

Virgil's definition explanation of poetry comes closest, methinks. Poetry is not words randomly scattered on a page. It is the "best possible words in the best possible order." (That's Coleridge's definition.)
Yes, the origin of poetry is music. A "lyric" poem once meant that the poem was sung or chanted, accompanied by a musical instrument called a "lyre."
Reading every poem that you can (not just modern or contemporary poems) will help prepare you if you want to attempt writing verse in the future. Here are two books to get you started:

How to Eat a Poem, edited by Ted Kooser, former Poet Laureate of the United States.

How does a Poem Mean? by John Ciardi

Read poems in real print. Read them aloud. Try this website:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/


Also, explore this, the Literary Network Forum website for classic poems and poets whose works are in the public domain, the "classics" in other words.

[Virgil]

Virgil's definition explanation of poetry comes closest, methinks. Poetry is not words randomly scattered on a page. It is the "best possible words in the best possible order." (That's Coleridge's definition.)
Yes, the origin of poetry is music. A "lyric" poem once meant that the poem was sung or chanted, accompanied by a musical instrument called a "lyre."
Reading every poem that you can (not just modern or contemporary poems) will help prepare you if you want to attempt writing verse in the future. Here are two books to get you started:

How to Eat a Poem, edited by Ted Kooser, former Poet Laureate of the United States.

How does a Poem Mean? by John Ciardi

Read poems in real print. Read them aloud. Try this website:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/


Also, explore this, the Literary Network Forum website for classic poems and poets whose works are in the public domain, the "classics" in other words.

Thanks for that website Aunty. That is a great website to have. :) Oh, by the way I subsrcibe to that Poetry magazine.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Virgil's definition explanation of poetry comes closest, methinks. Poetry is not words randomly scattered on a page. It is the "best possible words in the best possible order." (That's Coleridge's definition.)
Yes, the origin of poetry is music. A "lyric" poem once meant that the poem was sung or chanted, accompanied by a musical instrument called a "lyre."
Reading every poem that you can (not just modern or contemporary poems) will help prepare you if you want to attempt writing verse in the future. Here are two books to get you started:

How to Eat a Poem, edited by Ted Kooser, former Poet Laureate of the United States.

How does a Poem Mean? by John Ciardi

Read poems in real print. Read them aloud. Try this website:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/


Also, explore this, the Literary Network Forum website for classic poems and poets whose works are in the public domain, the "classics" in other words.

Dear Shalot, if it isn't too late please ignore EVERYTHING in Aunt Shecky's well-intended message and as much as you can of Virgil's! You ought not really at this point to be aiming to equal the great masters but to be trying to find the most effective link between your heart and the page or screen. You ought to be writing BAD poetry, corny poetry, over the top poetry... and little by little if indeed you have an aptitude for it you will grow dissatisfied with things that are glib or corny.

I reiterate: have FUN doing it, or get out your grievances, pay your respects to those you love or have loved but never adequately told them so.

[AuntShecky]

"You ought not really at this point to be aiming to equal the great masters"
(written by the Prince.)

Oh no no no. That was not my implication at all. As a matter of fact, I am learning about a certain occupational hazard among "real" (i.e. not yours truly) poets. It's called "belatedness" and has to do with worrying about one's work measuring up against the illumination of the Great Masters of the past. Harold Bloom 's famous theory of "The Anxiety of Influence" provides a study of this kind of poetic stumbling block.

When I posted that reply,I was under the impression that the young lady who asked the original question wanted to know about the reading and understanding poetry, not the writing of it.

Yes, one's personal feelings are never invalid, and yes writing down one's impressions could be therapeutic toward ameliorating them, but such
juvenilia in its first blossoming may not necessarily be ready for prime time or fully prepared for public consumption.

But, the more one reads, the more one learns, and it is often that an admiration for a poem or poet could spark an an urge to write verse.

Okay, dear Prince? I don't think your criticism of me was harsh a'tall!

[blazeofglory]

Poetry comes out of heart and you need to follow no rules or systems. a combination of words in the order it can express a certain feeling it becomes a poem.

[Sweets America]

I think I agree with both AuntShecky and Jerry here. :p
I mean, doing both of what they advise to do would be a great thing in my opinion. I love Jer's advice about having fun and pleasure writing poetry, I think that is very important. But, I agree with AuntShecky about reading the great poets, it can always be good to find things that inspire you and see how they did it. I love that quote from Coleridge that AuntShecky put on her message. I think Jer agreed about reading a lot. I am not sure, though, about studying books which deal with how to write poetry or how to understand it. It's not because I read book on painting techniques that I will become a great painter.
I think that above all one should write what feels good to them, what comes from a real emotion, and I like Jer's advice about writing even 'bad' poetry.