Sic Transit Gloria Scotia

[kilted exile]

Ok, I have been in 2 minds whether to post this here, in my blog or in the poetry section. Finally, I decided on here. The topics may be too many to really discuss in one thread (hence why I considered blogging it), and whilst it is related to a poem the topics I want to discuss are more reaching (therefore not suited for the poetry section) I suppose I could have put it in the Burns forum, but seriously other than the 3 days around Burn's night do any of you visit there?

So, here we find ourselves. Firstly some introduction on the poem it was written by one of my favourite poets Hugh MacDiarmid, I am not sure if it is in the public domain, so I will not be posting it in its entirity here, only the stanzas relevant to the discussion - however for any of you interested in reading the full poem, it was published in the anthology A drunk man looks at the thistle in 1926. My copy is the the book Twelve Modern Scottish Poets edited by Charles King (ISBN# 0-340-08765-X)

Anyway, here is the section most relevant to the discussion (stanzas 10-18 of 30 in total)

You canna gang to a Burns supper even
wi'oot some wizened scrunt o' a knock-knee
Chinee turns 'roon to say "Him Haggis - velly goot"
And ten to wan the piper is a Cockney.

No' wan in fifty kens a word Burns wrote
But misapplied is a'bodys property,
And gin there was his like alive the day
They'd be the last a kennin' haund to g'ie-

Croose London Scotties wi' their braw shirt fronts
And a' their fancy freen's, rejoicin'
That similah gatherings in Timbuctoo
Bagdad - and Hell, nae doot - are voicin'

Burns' sentiments o' universal love,
In pidgin English or wild-fowl Scots,
Ane toastin' ane wha's nowt to them but an
Excuse for faitherin' genius wi' their thochts

A' they've to say was said afore
A lad was born in Kyle to blaw aboot
What unco fate mak's him the dumpin'-grun'
For a' the sloppy rubbish they jaw oot?

Mair nonsense has been uttered in his name
Than in ony's barrin' liberty and Christ.
If this keeps spreadin' as the drink declines
Syne turns to tea, wae's me for the Zeitgeist!

Rabbie, wad'st thou wert here - the world hath need,
And Scotland mair sae, o' the likes o' thee!
The whisky that aince moved your lyre's become
A laxative for a' loquacity

O gin they'd stegh their guts and haud their wheesht
I'd thole it, for "a mans a man," I ken
But though the feck ha'e plenty o' the "a' that"
Their nocht but zoologically men.

I'm haverin', Rabbie, but ye understaun'
It gets my dander up to see your star
A bauble in Babel, banged like a saxpence
"Twixt Burbank's Baedeker and Bleistein's cigar.

So some decent pickings there for discussion I think. Here are the main off-shoots I thought of but if anyone has others feel free to chime in:

1) Of course the poem itself

2) The idea of national pride, as an example I meet a lot of people who consider themselves Scottish over here, despite no-one in 2 or sometimes 3 generations having been over there, is it not enough to consider yourself a national of the country you are born.

3) Which figure from history do you think is the most mis-used by people to peddle their own agendas? Is there a case to be made for either Bob Dylan or Mohammed Ali?

[Whifflingpin]

Wheesht mon, is Rabbie Burrrruns no' a braw laddie whaever havers aboot un? Yon's a greet soul wha can carry them a'.

2) National pride's a fine thing if it gives something to live up to, and a curse if it leads you to disparage other nations. In any case, if inherited from your ancestors or gained by the location of your birth, your nationality is a mere accident and should be taken very lightly.

3) I guess that Jesus & Mohammed are off limits, so what about Nietsche or Freud?

[Niamh]

I understand some of what is being said in the poem but...eh... any chance of a bit of a translation Kilted? :blush: Not for me of course but litnetters who dont understand scottish lingo...eh..yeah...

[papayahed]

I understand some of what is being said in the poem but...eh... any chance of a bit of a translation Kilted? :blush: Not for me of course but litnetters who dont understand scottish lingo...eh..yeah...

I would be one of those litnetters... I read it (And I really dislike poetry but I did it for Kilted) but I'm not sure what's goin on...


"wi'oot some wizened scrunt o' a knock-knee" - Say what????:alien:

[Lote-Tree]

Ah Kilty is Scottish Nationalism calling you? :D

[kilted exile]

Ok, so I had a good reply giving the glossary of terms from the book and then the computer crashed:crash: :p

Will retype that later tonight or tomorrow, of course not for you Niamh who as I am fully aware understands the dialect completely;)

I will give the quick transation to the line Papaya asked about just now though:

"wi'oot some wizened scrunt of a knock-knee"

becomes

"without some wizened knock-kneed dwarf"


Nope, Lote I am not hearing the calls of Scottish Nationalism - I am actually not in favour of independence.

Whiff, regarding, figures being off-limits: nope, as far as I am concerned anybody is fair game, I am hopeful that we can manage to dicuss things without it denigrating into the pathetic state of some of the religiious section threads (mainly because the die-hards are unlikely to read a thread with this title)

[Niamh]

Will retype that later tonight or tomorrow, of course not for you Niamh who as I am fully aware understands the dialect completely;)
Yes :nod: of course i understood... No problem!:p


I will give the quick transation to the line Papaya asked about just now though:

"wi'oot some wizened scrunt of a knock-knee"

becomes

"without some wizened knock-kneed dwarf"


I know that was without but the rest i hadnt a clue!:p

[papayahed]

does scrunt = dwarf?

[Virgil]

I love that Scotish dialect, but I must say I can't understand it. I love reading the old Scotish ballads. I did a pretty neat term paper in college on Sir Patrick Spence. But unfortunately I need a cheat sheet on some of the words.

[motherhubbard]

I need my hand held too.

[Lote-Tree]

Nope, Lote I am not hearing the calls of Scottish Nationalism - I am actually not in favour of independence.


Bueno!

Nationalism is kind of Tribalism...and we must go beyond that :D

[kilted exile]

Ok, here is the promised glossary

Firstly, some probably unneeded stuff

o' - of
a' - all
ha'e - have
etc. This is just all spoken dialect as we in general talk too quickly and miss out some syllables in the process.

Yes, papaya scrunt does mean dwarf.

Now, the rest:

Sic Transit Gloria Scotia - Thus Scotland's glory fades
gin - if
kennin' - knowing, recognizing
croose - conceited
freen's - freinds
unco - remarkable
wad'st - would that
stegh - stuff
haud their wheesht - remain silent
thole - bear
feck - majority (in contrast to the Irish meaning of the word as used by Father Jack;) )
haverin' - talking nonsense
dander - temper

Ok, hope this is enough any specific words people dont get just post and I'll give you the meaning of them individually

[Whifflingpin]

Something like -



You canna gang to a Burns supper even
wi'oot some wizened scrunt o' a knock-knee
Chinee turns 'roon to say "Him Haggis - velly goot"
And ten to wan the piper is a Cockney.

You cannot even go to a Burns supper without some wizened knock-kneed Chinese dwarf saying "Him Haggis - velly goot."
And ten to one the piper's a Cockney.

No' wan in fifty kens a word Burns wrote
But misapplied is a'bodys property,
And gin there was his like alive the day
They'd be the last a kennin' haund to g'ie-

Not one in fifty knows a word Burns wrote, but everyone misquotes him.
And if he was alive today, they'd be the last to give him appreciative applause.

Croose London Scotties wi' their braw shirt fronts
And a' their fancy freen's, rejoicin'
That similah gatherings in Timbuctoo
Bagdad - and Hell, nae doot - are voicin'

Stuck-up London Scots with their stiff shirts and all their fancy friends, rejoicing that similah gatherings in Timbuctoo, Bagdad - and Hell no doubt -

Burns' sentiments o' universal love,
In pidgin English or wild-fowl Scots,
Ane toastin' ane wha's nowt to them but an
Excuse for faitherin' genius wi' their thochts

are voicing Burns' sentiments of universal love in pidgin English or wild-fowl Scots, and toasting one who's nothing to them but an excuse for [shooting their mouths off.]

A' they've to say was said afore
A lad was born in Kyle to blaw aboot
What unco fate mak's him the dumpin'-grun'
For a' the sloppy rubbish they jaw oot?

All they've got to say was said before a lad was born in Kyle (reference to Burns poem about himself) to talk about. What great fate makes him the dumping ground for all the sloppy rubbish they spout?

Mair nonsense has been uttered in his name
Than in ony's barrin' liberty and Christ.
If this keeps spreadin' as the drink declines
Syne turns to tea, wae's me for the Zeitgeist!

More nonsense has been uttered in his name than anyone else's except liberty & Christ. [Next bit not directly translatable]

Rabbie, wad'st thou wert here - the world hath need,
And Scotland mair sae, o' the likes o' thee!
The whisky that aince moved your lyre's become
A laxative for a' loquacity

Rabbie thou should'st be living at this hour, the world hath need of thee (ref to Wordsworth on Milton) and so does Scotland. The whisky that used to inspire you now just causes verbal diarrhoea.

O gin they'd stegh their guts and haud their wheesht
I'd thole it, for "a mans a man," I ken
But though the feck ha'e plenty o' the "a' that"
Their nocht but zoologically men.

If they'd just stuff their guts and shut up I'd put up with it, for "a man's a man," I know. But though most of them have plenty of "a' that" they're not men at all, except biologically.

I'm haverin', Rabbie, but ye understaun'
It gets my dander up to see your star
A bauble in Babel, banged like a saxpence
"Twixt Burbank's Baedeker and Bleistein's cigar.

I'm rabbitting on, Rabbie, but you understand it annoys me to see your star turned into tinsel by babblers, stuck like a sixpenny bit between Burbank's Baedeker and Bleistein's cigar (reference to a poem by T S Eliot)

[Niamh]

Ok, here is the promised glossary

Firstly, some probably unneeded stuff

o' - of
a' - all
ha'e - have
etc. This is just all spoken dialect as we in general talk too quickly and miss out some syllables in the process.

Yes, papaya scrunt does mean dwarf.

Now, the rest:

Sic Transit Gloria Scotia - Thus Scotland's glory fades
gin - if
kennin' - knowing, recognizing
croose - conceited
freen's - freinds
unco - remarkable
wad'st - would that
stegh - stuff
haud their wheesht - remain silent
thole - bear
feck - majority (in contrast to the Irish meaning of the word as used by Father Jack;) )
haverin' - talking nonsense
dander - temper

Ok, hope this is enough any specific words people dont get just post and I'll give you the meaning of them individually

And whats wrong with the Irish meaning of the word? Its feckin great!:p

Thanks for the translation. It means so much more now! Very powerful.

[kilted exile]

Well whiff, has given a full translation.I would agree with the vast majority, but, perhaps disagree with his version of the third line in the final stanza.

Where he has:


turned into tinsel by babblers

I cant escape the religious connotations of the tower of Babel, and so for me the idea is far more about Burn's words being the one shining light in the darkness. For MacDiarmid this is terrible because he feels Burns deserves so much more.

[Whifflingpin]

"Well whiff, has given a full translation.I would agree with the vast majority, but, perhaps disagree with his version of the third line in the final stanza.

Where he has:"turned into tinsel by babblers"

I cant escape the religious connotations of the tower of Babel, and so for me the idea is far more about Burn's words being the one shining light in the darkness. For MacDiarmid this is terrible because he feels Burns deserves so much more."

I agree totally, and of course there are other places where my translation loses the power and richness in meaning of the original. In fact, it's weak tea compared to MacDiarmid's whisky.:D

Another candidate for your question 3. MacDiarmid said much nonsense had been spoken in the name of Liberty, which was certainly true of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. For the last hundred years, the most abused and misused idea has probably been Democracy.

[kilted exile]

Another candidate for your question 3. MacDiarmid said much nonsense had been spoken in the name of Liberty, which was certainly true of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. For the last hundred years, the most abused and misused idea has probably been Democracy.

Yep, the idea of democracy has been so mistreated over the last century that even a govt freely elected by the majority of the population becomes a despot/dictator if they do not form consensus with more powerful countries elsewhere.

[kilted exile]

Bumping for the day.

also see here (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090122.wbkrobbie24/BNStory/globebooks/home)

[Niamh]

Happy Burns day Kilted!


http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp222/haggis-photo/Ode_to-Haggis.jpg