Does God love his enimies?

[Dark Muse]

If in the Bibile God preaches that man should love his enemies as well as his friends, then why does he not live by example? If people are suppose to be striving for Godly perfection.

If God truly loved and forgave his enemies, than why would there be a hell? It seems to me that sending those whom oppose you into eternal punishment of pain and suffering is not very loving or forgiving, but the ultimate act of revenge.

If God truly loved and forgave everyone, friend and foe alike, then would not everyone be given pass into heaven?

[LadyW]

If God truly loved and forgave everyone, friend and foe alike, then would not everyone be given pass into heaven?

Indeed, it is said that if we expect to be forgiven for our sins then we must go through the process of recognizing what we have done, accepting responsibility, apologizing for our transgression and promising/endevouring not to repeat this. But in order for this process to be complete, we must be willing to forgive others too, in accordance with the "Our Father".

The question you posed is a rather difficult concept and I suppose it is something we shall never know during our earthly life. It raises the questions, does hell exist? and if so, what degree of sin would admit us into hell?

[Dark Muse]

Indeed, it is said that if we expect to be forgiven for our sins then we must go through the process of recognizing what we have done, accepting responsibility, apologizing for our transgression and promising/endevouring not to repeat this. But in order for this process to be complete, we must be willing to forgive others too, in accordance with the "Our Father".

Well I am no biblical scholar it does not seem to me that it says in the bible that man should only love his enemies if they first apologize and make redemption of the wrong they have done. But it seems man is exepcted to be forgiving reguardless.

But it does not seem to me that God parctices the same turn the other cheek philosophy he exepcts man to follow.

[LadyW]

Seemingly, yes you could be correct. But how do we ever really know if it really works that way? I don't see how it could be justifiable to claim that all men should be so forgiving when this very thing is not practiced by the speaker, however, is this so? We donot know for sure if hell exists, or what a man has to do in order to be sent there for all eternity, or in fact if this is determined by God.

[Dark Muse]

But according to the Bibile there is a hell where sinners go. So if you start saying, well maybe there is not a hell, then it makes the whole Bibile void. Becasue either the word of the bibile is true, or it is not, you cannot just say the parts you like are true.

[Virgil]

Hmm, well you assume the rules of humanity apply to God. An aspect of Christianity is the notion of cosmic justice. Justice requires punishment as well as rewards.

[LadyW]

But according to the Bibile there is a hell where sinners go. So if you start saying, well maybe there is not a hell, then it makes the whole Bibile void. Becasue either the word of the bibile is true, or it is not, you cannot just say the parts you like are true.

Okay, I never claimed that I didn't believe hell existed despite scripture. But I could write down that the sky is purple... who is to defy me? Probablly alot of people. Just because it says so in scripture it does not make it a 100% bonafied guarantee that hell exists and that all those condemned on judgement day shall spend an eternity there; then again, it could very well be. I am not personally defying the Bible, I do not take the Bible literally, I believe it symbolizes/represents things.

I believe that if God preached forgiveness, then God wouldn't be hypocritical of this. But how far does forgiveness stretch for a repeat offender? or someone who is ignorant of his/her transgressions?

[rosa]

Hi Dark Muse
There are some difficult question in your post.
God is supposed to love but also to punish. Man has no power to punish.
Infact as for Bible man is supposed to forgive he does not have a choice because the ultimate judgement is supposed to be in Gods hands.
God set rules down and in order not to be punished you have to follow those rules.You have the choice not to,if you like but then you will face the consequence.Fair to me!
The fact that he loves his enemies does not means that they are exent from punishment,in the same way in which his friends are not going to be exent from it if they cross the line. Any different it would be an easy way out, God is supposed to be just so we expect him to be impartial.
I also would say that " living in his image" does not suggest achieving his power to judge .

In the same way I do not think that forgiving is a God think in the way you put it.He is forgiving if and but not as a matter of procedure.
We must be forgiving.Why?
Because God is supposed to judge and punish not us.We are supposed to leave in his hands the judgement bit and the punishing bit too.
Where would be the point to have Hell if God was going to forgive everybody regardless from their crime and their intention?

[Dark Muse]

Okay, I never claimed that I didn't believe hell existed despite scripture. But I could write down that the sky is purple... who is to defy me? Probablly alot of people. Just because it says so in scripture it does not make it a 100% bonafied guarantee that hell exists and that all those condemned on judgement day shall spend an eternity there; then again, it could very well be. I am not personally defying the Bible, I do not take the Bible literally, I believe it symbolizes/represents things.

I myself do not belive in the Bibile at all, but people who do belive in the Bibile take it as the absolute true word of God, so if a person says they belive in the Bibile and in God, they cannot then try to cliam that parts of the Bibile are wrong just becasue those parts might refelct poorly on God or seem hypircitical.

And if it did say in the Bibile that the sky was purple then Christians would preach that the sky was purple, and if you tried to tell them, no I can see they sky is blue they would say you were wrong and give some cryptic answner about God working in mysterious ways.

It seems if God is asking man to be more forgiving then he himself is, then he is asking man to in fact be better then himself.

[LadyW]

And if it did say in the Bibile that the sky was purple then Christens would preach that the sky was purple, and if you tried to tell them, no I can see they sky is blue they would say you were wrong and give some cryptic answner about God working in mysterious ways.

Ooh, some harsh claims there don't you think?
Those are what we call fundamentalists/Bible Believers, they take the Bible literally/ word for word. Whereas, many other decide that the Bible merely implys things about life and it is written in a way that the people at the time would understand.
Thankfully, I donot think anyone could justifiablly claim that the sky is purple :)
Why is it that we cannot pick and choose sections of the Bible that we believe to be correct and incorrect?
Different passages were constructed by different people, it doesn't all have to be 100% flawless just because someone says so. Plus, a religion is personal, thus the Bible can be interpreted differently by different individuals.

[Dark Muse]

Different passages were constructed by different people, it doesn't all have to be 100% flawless just because someone says so. Plus, a religion is personal, thus the Bible can be interpreted differently by different individuals.

Well an individual person could do so if they wanted, but according to Christainty as a whole the bibile is the True Word of God, reguardless if it was written by man or not. So to pick and choose, would be to question the word of God.

And can a person turly cliam to be a part of any religion is they only pratice the parts of the religion they like but do not commit themselves to the whole religion?

That would be like a person saying, well I am a Buddist, but I eat meat, becasue I do not like that part of Buddisim.

[LadyW]

Well an individual person could do so if they wanted, but according to Christainty as a whole the bibile is the True Word of God, reguardless if it was written by man or not. So to pick and choose, would be to question the word of God.

And can a person turly cliam to be a part of any religion is they only pratice the parts of the religion they like but do not commit themselves to the whole religion?

Yes, according to Christianity, the people who wrote the Bible were, at the time, under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit (the 3rd nature of God) and therefore they wrote what God intended, nothing more nothing less.

But yes of course, I am part of a Christian division myself and I am by no means a perfect model of Christianity by the set standards. I believe that people should have the liberty to interpret things how they wish, to develop their religion on their own, to worship in whatever way suits them personally.
Anyway... you shouldn't always believe what you read :)
There are somethings in the Bible that I do not personally agree with/come to terms with; just because it is my religion I donot comply to all of its "rules" just because it was written in a book some thousands of years ago. My religion is a little more than that.

[dzebra]

I am convinced that God does love his enemies, but I also don't think that all of God's enemies love God. Hell is a place of eternal separation from God. God wants to be with all people, but for the people who don't want to be with God, maybe he lets them get what they want by separating himself from them, which is "sending them to hell."

That could be a way of looking at it.

[Dark Muse]

I Hell is a place of eternal separation from God. God wants to be with all people, but for the people who don't want to be with God, maybe he lets them get what they want by separating himself from them, which is "sending them to hell."That could be a way of looking at it.

If he simply wants to give them what they desire, why the fire and brimstone? Why not make hell a pleasent place to live, apart from Heaven and God?

[B-Mental]

I have two brief points. ONE....and this is a biggie....ITS GOD...Do you really think God has enemies? That is ridiculous! Two, Lets for the sake of arguement say that their is a place God sends us. There may be a hot place, there may be a cold place, there may be a comfortable place. The believer will find that no matter where he/she is she/he is happy. The unbeliever may be able to, but then again they may just believe they are being punished. I say its all what you put into it.

[Dark Muse]

According to many Christains those that do not belive in the Judeo-Christain God are enemies to God

[B-Mental]

Yeah, well thats plain old doggie doo doo... God has no enemies, only man has enemies!

[Dark Muse]

If God has no enemies, then what about the whole Armeggedon thing and the coming of the anti-christ, and Satan trying to overthrow God?

If God has no emeies then what is the point of the seven sins? If God truly had no enemies then he would not try to forbid people from doing things, because it would not matter to him what they did.

[B-Mental]

These are called trials...they are trials of the righteous and by them they shall be judged. The seven sins are the ones that lead to breaking the 10 commandments. They are the root of sin, and all sins can be broken down into some aspect of one or the other (maybe some aspect of more than one).

Read your last line again, and again, and again... until you believe it.

[Dark Muse]

But nonetheless, sinners are considered to be enmies of God becaue they act against the will of God.

[B-Mental]

SO you insist that God has enemies and I insist that he doesn't. I'm not going to change my view...nor do I suspect that you are going to change yours...But nonetheless...lets drop it. You are insisting that God has enemies...maybe we worship different Gods, my God has no enemies...therefore I have no enemies!

[Dark Muse]

I just think it is presumptious to say that God can have no enemies simply becasue he is God.

But that is the last I shall say on that subject.

[B-Mental]

There is only one God DM...Its presumptuous to say that God is so petty he has enemies. Don't you get it? God takes no sides in the petty wars of men. IF he did choose a side, it would be for the innocents. Innocence. Thats why its ridiculous when some country believes it is cloaked in the will of God. There is no God siding with one or the other...that is presumptuous!

[Dark Muse]

If God does not take sides why does he punnish those that disagree with him or act against his will? That is taking a side.

If they were not his enemy then he would not care if they choose to walk a different path.

[B-Mental]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I really don't know what you are trying to say by this last statement.

[Dark Muse]

Then I presume your God is not the Christain God?

For according to Christianty, those whom do not belive in thier God shall be punnished in the afterlife.

[B-Mental]

Actually, I was brought up in the Catholic faith. Have you ever heard of Jesus teaching forgiveness? Do you think you could forgive the ones that wrong you? If you can, that is Christian, if you can't then its something to aspire to... I believe in the Christian God, but am appalled at what all these different religions teach. It seems to me that some "Christians" think that wearing your best and getting into the front seats at the church is more christian than reaching into your pocket and handing something to someone less fortunate, or giving them food or shelter.

[Dark Muse]

I am familair with the teachings of Jesus, but I scarecly see them acutally followed even by those that cliam to be Christians.

And God as he is presented in the Bibile does not come off as being very compassionate.

Needless to say it seems as the Bibile would have it, and as many Christains would have it, should there be a heaven and hell, then I would gather there is a nice cozy spot in hell waiting for me. Not becasue of the things I have done, but beacue of what I choose to belive in.

[B-Mental]

Then I presume your God is not the Christain God?

For according to Christianty, those whom do not belive in thier God shall be punnished in the afterlife.


Wow, you presume my God is not the Christian God....Where in the Bible did Jesus say "...those whom do not believe in their God shall be punished in the afterlife." I can't find that...Can you help me with that one, cause if you can find it verbatim as quoted by Jesus Christ (thats where the Christian thing comes from) then I shall apologise for the wickedness of my ways.

[B-Mental]

I am familair with the teachings of Jesus, but I scarecly see them acutally followed even by those that cliam to be Christians.

And God as he is presented in the Bibile does not come off as being very compassionate.

Needless to say it seems as the Bibile would have it, and as many Christains would have it, should there be a heaven and hell, then I would gather there is a nice cozy spot in hell waiting for me. Not becasue of the things I have done, but beacue of what I choose to belive in.

I think God accepts you for who you are DM. I think that even were you to go to hell, you would have a party there, and get to make some smashing friends, and when you were forced to endure painful and punishing torture, you would do it with a smile on your face or whistling some tune...man would the devil be pissed when he can't bring you down!

[Dark Muse]

Wow, you presume my God is not the Christian God....Where in the Bible did Jesus say "...those whom do not believe in their God shall be punished in the afterlife." I can't find that...Can you help me with that one, cause if you can find it verbatim as quoted by Jesus Christ (thats where the Christian thing comes from) then I shall apologise for the wickedness of my ways.

Let me put it this way. I really do not think there are going to be a lot of Pagans strolling around in Heaven, if so then they would not have worked so hard to try and convert us.

[Dark Muse]

I think God accepts you for who you are DM. I think that even were you to go to hell, you would have a party there, and get to make some smashing friends, and when you were forced to endure painful and punishing torture, you would do it with a smile on your face or whistling some tune...man would the devil be pissed when he can't bring you down!

LOL well if there is a Hell, then my closest friends will be right there with me anyway, for they do not stand much more of a chance then I do.

[B-Mental]

See, how bad could hell be if you get to hang out with your friends?

[Dark Muse]

I just hope it is a Dante's Hell, becasue I do prefer the cold.

[B-Mental]

Yeah, Ditto, I would be snowboarding, and then walking up the neverending mountain again to get another awesome run, and when it storms, I'm making a little snow shelter and playing cards until the storm goes away...think about all the fresh powder.

[Aston]

I think a lot people fail to realise that God loves us enough to be on our side, think if God was not on our side, what would the world be like. It would be chaos. God loves us enough that he made us all, and when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they sinned, the first sin of mankind. If they didn't sin then we wouldn't be here having this debate, we would know God is real, as real as the earth we walk on and the sky we live under. In everyones life they all get atleast on chance to choose god as their one and only saviour. So as this debate stands this could be one of those chances in your life.

[blazeofglory]

This is something springs out of imagination only

[blazeofglory]

I think a lot people fail to realise that God loves us enough to be on our side, think if God was not on our side, what would the world be like. It would be chaos. God loves us enough that he made us all, and when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they sinned, the first sin of mankind. If they didn't sin then we wouldn't be here having this debate, we would know God is real, as real as the earth we walk on and the sky we live under. In everyones life they all get atleast on chance to choose god as their one and only saviour. So as this debate stands this could be one of those chances in your life.

This is a primitive sort of idea and you cannot take God literally and defining God or describing his acts in terms of what you read in the Bible validates the point that you have yet to read other scriptures in point fact, Read the Vedas there is somewhat different version of creation.

[catavenger]

1) God does love his enemies that is why he didn't just squash Satan like a bug.
2) I agree with dzebra that hell is for those who separate themselves from God. If you separated yourself from the best place and person there is you would be making your own hell.
Imagine eternity in such a place (think of how much humans have messed up this planet in only a few thousand years.)
3) Since hell contains an evil vindictive Satan and his demons they are probably the ones meting out the "hell fire and brimstone" not God.

[Dark Muse]

But by God sending them there, he is not forgiving them for thier offense against him, and so how can he love them, if he will not forgive them?

If God truly loved his enemies, and belived in "turn the other cheek" there would by no hell. Why dose God not turn his own cheek?

[El Viejo]

If in the Bibile God preaches that man should love his enemies as well as his friends, then why does he not live by example? If people are suppose to be striving for Godly perfection.

If God truly loved and forgave his enemies, than why would there be a hell? It seems to me that sending those whom oppose you into eternal punishment of pain and suffering is not very loving or forgiving, but the ultimate act of revenge.

If God truly loved and forgave everyone, friend and foe alike, then would not everyone be given pass into heaven?

Here's what I was taught: God loves everyone, but not everyone loves Him. God wants everyone to be with him, but not everyone chooses that. God offers forgiveness, but if we don't avail ourselves of that forgiveness we won't receive it.

Essentially, people choose to be with or apart from Him. He's a great guy, and anyone who'd reject him certainly doesn't desire eternal happiness.

Here's what I've come to on my own:

I've never heard a satisfactory answer to why God would incinerate anyone for eternity. Yes, there are crimes that warrant severe punishment, but eternal torture? You'd think God would prefer rehab or erasure to torture.

I've found the God of the Bible to be a capricious sort. His meting of punishment and reward makes about as much sense as what we see in the world of business and politics.

EV

[blazeofglory]

you are close to truth. God seems to be a trader in a commodity market. Rewards when he gains and punishes when he recurs losses.

I do not see anyone rising above these realities.

[Redzeppelin]

But by God sending them there, he is not forgiving them for thier offense against him, and so how can he love them, if he will not forgive them?

If God truly loved his enemies, and belived in "turn the other cheek" there would by no hell. Why dose God not turn his own cheek?

1. God does not "send" anybody to Hell - Hell is a choosen destination. If my doctor tells me that eating fatty food and smoking will kill me and I chose to ignore that and then I die, I don't get to blame the doctor. He told me what would happen. Likewise, God tells us that choosing to turn from Him is choosing to turn from Life itself because God is the source of all Life in the universe. So, choosing to turn from him is like committing a slow-motion suicide. It is not His will that you do so, but He values freedom so much that He won't make anybody go to heaven against his/her will.

2. "Forgiveness" does not mean "relieved of the consequences." Even believers - who are forgiven - still often pay the prices of their choices. God has already forgiven all our sins - but we must turn to Him and accept His offer of eternal life in order to change the path we've chosen.

3. The Biblical advice to "turn the other cheek" means to "let go" minor offenses committed against ourselves. "Turning the other cheek" does not mean that I allow injustice, violence, suffering and mayhem to happen if it is within my power to stop it.

God does "turn His cheek" more than we realize - every sin we commit is against Him and is a violation of His relationship with us - yet, no matter how horrible the sin (murder, rape) He still allows us to continue to live in hopes that we will eventually realize our need of Him. If God didn't "turn the other cheek" we'd all be gone the minute we decided to betray Him and sin against Him.

Finally, at some point justice must be served if God is to be fair and just; a loving God cannot allow wrong to go unadressed; if we accept the gift of salvation and change our lives to align with Him, then our sins are forgiven - but if we choose to follow our own selves and reject Him, then we will be held accountable for the lives we lived. It should be reassuring that God is completely, unbiased-ly, fair - justice for all the wrongs ever done will be dispensed. To ask God to "gloss over" the atrocities of this world is to ask Him to be unloving, unfair, unjust. Would you like me - the court judge - to excuse the drunk driver who killed your lover because I was a forgiving guy?

[Jozanny]

If in the Bibile God preaches that man should love his enemies as well as his friends, then why does he not live by example? If people are suppose to be striving for Godly perfection.

If God truly loved and forgave his enemies, than why would there be a hell? It seems to me that sending those whom oppose you into eternal punishment of pain and suffering is not very loving or forgiving, but the ultimate act of revenge.

If God truly loved and forgave everyone, friend and foe alike, then would not everyone be given pass into heaven?

Dark, I am a non-believer, but let me try to help you out by saying if hell actually exists, being in it ceases to be a punishment, merely a condition. If I punish my cat by a light smack for knocking over my coffee pot, the smack gets the message across and ceases.

For a soul, eternal damnation is a contradiction in terms. The damnation merely becomes what it is, a condition.

The Pope recently said, btw, that the souls of unbaptized infants no longer go to Limbo.

Nice of God to let the big fellow in on that.:p

And no, I don't like to punish my baby boys often, but sometimes things get out of hand.