Dying for your country, or living for your family?

[TeeJay12513]

Today I had a very interesting encounter at the dinner table with my father. Before I continue, let it be know that he is a white rhodesian of 50 years, and im 15. Anyways so we were eating dinner and somehow the bush war of rhodesia came up (civil war of zimbabwe), which eventually developed into a discussion of nationalism. Eventually, frustrated agruing with such an informed man, I blurted out "Well who do you respect more now, Bush or her majesty?" Anger quickly took his eyes of course, and he said "the Queen of course. If she walked through that front door right now I would stand out of respect, but if she asked me to go fight a war for her I would refuse." At this point we stopped talking about it, but its still interesting. I personally would die to defend the Queen or any member of the royal family, but im interested in others' views. So, what would you choose, dying for your country, or living for your family?

[B-Mental]

TeeJay, I had a conversation with my father when I was close to your age that was identical to this one. I basically told my father that I thought it was noble to die for my country. I was young, I knew nothing. My father was so confused by my reaction, and said wait until you are older and have a family. You will change your mind.

A couple of months later we had a discussion about the military paying for college. Now, I realise that I grew up in a lower middle class family with one income to feed six mouths. I decided that I would join the military, and that my government could pay for my college education. My father went in the US Army, so I ended up going into the US Army. I learned how to use every type of weapon in the US arsenal dating from 1940 through 1990, ranging from military shotgunto 107mm mortars, I attended military courses on Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Warfare. All my military experience was during time of peace. The one thing about the 3 years active and 5 years reserve (national guard) that I really truly learned is that humans are capable of dealing great amounts of violence, pain, and injustice upon one another. I became a pacifist. I would rather die trying to prevent violence than trying to commit violence. I think one day you will see similar to your father. He sounds very interesting.

[Virgil]

Well, Teejay, I don't know how close to a political discussion this skirts but let me correct you on one thing. No one in this country is asked to give up one's life for one's country. One serves one's country, not sacrifice one's life. Suicide missions are things of the movies, not real life. Certainly one takes on greater risks but no soldier is asked to sacrifice one's life. First of all, no one would do it.

[cactus]

If you have not seen Lions for Lambs, I would strongly recommend that you do... very powerful ideas and themes emerge from that film which are relevant to this discussion. In particular, I would like to hear your opinion on the two black soldiers, their views vs the Political Science professor (played by Robert Redford).

Without the young and their ideals and passion, who would be bold enough to drive the change?

[TeeJay12513]

Well i understand both points presented by both of you, I will attempt to respond to both in seperate points.

First off, B-Mental I respect you for your service to your country, it was very noble in my eyes, expecially to get money for school and take the burden off your family. Although it does fit well with the topic, im ment is it better to set your alligence with your country or your family. I personally dont support war, although I do recegonize it as a human necessity as there will always be someone opposing someone/thing else, ending in conflict. I believe (as much as a 15 year old boy can) that if Britain is willing to sacrifice just a part of itself for me or my ideals, then thats enough for me to die for it.

Virgil, im not sure on this point, but im under the assumption that when you enlist in the military they own you for your designated time, and during that time they have control over your body physically, when they say jump you say how high for a lack of a better example. Disobeying officers is usually met with severe punishment, so its in the eye of the beholder whether or not you are asked to give your life or not when you enlist.

[crazefest456]

neither.
Either intention is motivated by something I don't want to be part of.

[Dori]

I think I would choose family, unless they (my family) wanted me to serve my country. I'm young, by the way.

[Pensive]

Living for myself, world needs perfection. :p

(On a more serious note, don't know, would most probably live for family but then again if a situation comes where I would either have to pass the secrets of the country where I would be living, or die, I would probably choose death but then who knows what happens on the door-step to death - I might change my views even though at the moment I feel it is close to impossible)

[Sweets America]

Well, Teejay, I don't know how close to a political discussion this skirts but let me correct you on one thing. No one in this country is asked to give up one's life for one's country. One serves one's country, not sacrifice one's life. Suicide missions are things of the movies, not real life. Certainly one takes on greater risks but no soldier is asked to sacrifice one's life. First of all, no one would do it.

:confused: But when guys are sent to fight, they have great chances to die, don't they?
No soldier is directly asked to sacrifice his life, but indirectly, it is what has chances to happen. If you go fighting, it's either to kill or be killed.

To answer the original question, I do not have any nationalist feelings. Or if I had some, it would not be for France but more for the US even if I'm not a US citizen. But I would choose my family I think. That might be selfish but I think I would really do that.

[manolia]

And what about wars of independance or against dictatorships?
I would rather die for my country than see her enslaved (as was in the past) or under a dictatorship (as was in the not so distant past).

[kilted exile]

For me to go to war, it would need to a monumentally serious & imminent requirement. I most certainly wouldnt go to war for a meaningless figurehead who, by the lottery of birth, has assumed power.

[Hira]

Even though I am not sure if I would be willing to die when I am actually about to die, probably family. But I would hope that I consider humanity first rather than limiting it to the tiny compartment of a country.

[TeeJay12513]

.... I hope your not referring to the royal family.... becuse they've lead the UK for generations with pride and compassion, in the face of dozens of terrible events.... and they are certainly not "a meaningless figurehead", referring to them in that way is a way to make a lot of enemies...

[amalia1985]

My family means the world to me, I could live in any country...

[Taliesin]

I have never wanted to be torn apart by bombs, land mines or bullets.
I have no interest in bleeding to death.
Dying slowly in a trench holds no romance in my eyes.
And never would I go to death in the name of some figure or symbol of power.


After consulting with my pineal gland, I actually agree with Pensive - living for oneself, as reasonable egoism is actually one of the most healthy and natural views on life. (also considering superrationality, doesn't rule out what is usually considered as "ethical".)
Living for your family is also living for yourself, and there is absolutely nothing derogatory in the phrase "live for oneself". Ones' values come from oneself.
Live for your family and yourself.

I'd certainly choose "living for your family" although it is doubtful whether I would ever have one besides mother and father and brother.
Well, considering how close a group of my friends are to me, I think I could call them family, when you'd stretch the term. And it is definitely "live for my family" in that case.

Family is more important than country.

[Koa]

And what about wars of independance or against dictatorships?
I would rather die for my country than see her enslaved (as was in the past) or under a dictatorship (as was in the not so distant past).

I was thinking of that... I would never go to war or to the army (hm women couldnt in my country until a few years ago yay) but if there was some kind of dictatorship and my belief led me to be a dissident? I don't know if I would go far or I'd be part of the silent majority, to be honest... But going to war as a job and being blown up because someone decided to invade a country, to me is quite far from heroism. (oops...politics?)

[Bakiryu]

Living for my country.

Back home the resistance is barely alive, but I'd prefer to return one day and work to change it. As soon as the present regime collapses.

(politics?)

[Adventure Man]

dying for ones country is sooooo 1790's like omg.....

living for my family, nah i've seen bitter people who "sacrificed" and never saw the pay out they were hoping for.

Not being extreme in my thinking is probably my answer.

[manolia]

I was thinking of that... I would never go to war or to the army (hm women couldnt in my country until a few years ago yay) but if there was some kind of dictatorship and my belief led me to be a dissident? I don't know if I would go far or I'd be part of the silent majority, to be honest... But going to war as a job and being blown up because someone decided to invade a country, to me is quite far from heroism. (oops...politics?)

I agree ;)

[Nightshade]

ok steering away from the oh so subtle ( note the sarcasm) refferances to current politics....to literature and this topic, I know more than a few of us studied potery and war ( some specific as in WWI)


My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

and on the other side

This be our part, for so we serve you best,
So best confirm their prowess and their pride,
Your warrior sons, to whom in this high test
Our fortunes we confide.


One of my favouirte illustrations of the changing attitudes to war il literature has got to be E.F Benson's Michael .

[kilted exile]

Yep, War poetry is great stuff. My offering is the last stanza of E.A. Mackintosh's Recruitment

"Lads, you're wanted, over there
Shiver in the morning dew
More poor devils, like yourselves
Waiting to be killed by you."

[Virgil]

One of my all time favorite quotes:


The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.
- General George S. Patton