Darcy V Rochester

[hollywoodkid]

Ok, stop me if you've heard this one before - i did have a quick look to see if this was already an existing thread but as my search was fruitless i thought i'd start it up.

Afterall, surely this is one of the most IMPORTANT debates in Literature :lol:

Now personally, i am vehemently 'Team Rochester'

We did this quite recently at my college and the results were in Darcy's favour so I would be interested to see who comes out on top amongst the REAL literature lovers (!)

Let the debate begin...

[cactus]

Oh Darcy! *Swoon*

[papayahed]

Tough choice. Although, when I picture Darcy and Rochester I picture Colin Firth and Orson Welles respectively and that may cloud my judgement slightly. I'll have to think about this one.

[motherhubbard]

this is under constant debate at my house- constant. I think Rochester is a man of passion and Darcy of reason. I would choose Rochester. I think you should add a poll.

[LadyWentworth]

Rochester!!!!!

No need for me to say anymore than that! :D

[hollywoodkid]

papayahed, whatever you do, DON'T picture orson welles; that almost kills it for me and i am a devout Rochester fiend.

Try picturing Toby Stephens instead - much more 'aesthetically pleasing' :blush:

motherhubbard - you are very true: Rochester is PASSIONATE

In my opinion (*prepares for an outcry*) Darcy is a bit of a milksop. A bit pathetic. A bit too frigid and rigid.

In short, a big dull dud.

Oh and how do I do a poll? I can't find it :/

[Scheherazade]

Oh and how do I do a poll? I can't find it :/You surely jest! You have already got a poll!

:p

[hollywoodkid]

really? oh so I have!

Confound this modern day technology - it's always catching me out!

[Tersely]

I'm for Darcy. Rochester has never entered into my mind right as someone who I'd like to spend the rest of my life with. He might be passionate but he danced around alot of important topics...oh lets say like a crazy house mate in the attic or bringing other chicks around to incite a womans natural jealous wrath.. At least Darcy wouldnt toy with my heart. Physically by the end of the book Darcy comes out more pleasing to look at too.

[Dark Muse]

I have to say Darcy hands down

[Splendour]

I say Darcy...however, I would maintain that I would much rather marry Captain Wentworth from Austen's Persuasion. He stood out as a much better lover than Darcy for me.

[LadyWentworth]

I say Darcy...however, I would maintain that I would much rather marry Captain Wentworth from Austen's Persuasion. He stood out as a much better lover than Darcy for me.

:thumbs_up :D

[Remarkable]

Rochester always held more appeal to me.In the end,he is absolutely more passionate but not wholy unreasonable.I like the way Rochester thinks;he is a wise man and also a very cultured one.Darcy is a good choice too:handsome,smart,with manners,a real gentleman in the end but he is too perfect and men this perfect are certainly going to put you in a lot of trouble!And what about Rochester's looks?No,really,who cares?It's enough if he looks like a man!

[Silvia]

mmm...I would like to say both of them....but in this case, since we have to decide, then Rochester is my choice:blush: !

[hollywoodkid]

Ok so maybe Rochester's principles are a little wild but he has had a troubled past so we can forgive him if his morality is a little warped.

The worst misfortune Darcy has ever had to face was his little sister getting engaged to an unsuitable man which was all resolved pretty quickly anyway

Now, Darcy IS a gentleman but for me he is still too priggish and he cares far too much for social status

I mean, yes he DID save Lydia and hence save the family from disgrace.

But lets imagine that he wasn't able to get Wickham to marry Lydia and the family was disgraced - would he have still 'allied' himself with Elizabeth? Would he have overlooked said disgrace, bearing in mind how hard it was for him at the beginning to overlook the fact that she was of a lower social class to him?

I don't think he would.

Whereas Rochester - he wouldn't have cared if Jane's (metaphorical) sister had married a pauper or a prince. He didn't give two hoots about Jane's social status or her impoverished background - he loved her devotedly, passionately, hopelessly for the person she is

And that's another thing -would Darcy have even looked at Lizzie twice if she was as plain, obscure and little as Jane Eyre?

NO!

Rochester, despite his defects, is the better man - hell, he risked the wrath of God to have his Jane!

DOWN WITH DARCY
VOTE ROCHESTER

[LadyWentworth]

Rochester, despite his defects, is the better man - hell, he risked the wrath of God to have his Jane!

DOWN WITH DARCY
VOTE ROCHESTER

**applauds**

I mentioned this shirt in another thread awhile ago. When I finally get around to having the extra money to spend, I most definitely will buy it! :D

http://www.cafepress.com/buy/bronte/-/pv_design_prod/pg_1/p_storeid.92177459/pNo_92177459/id_16234673/opt_/fpt_/c_666/

[hollywoodkid]

Thank you, thank you :P

Oh I must have this shirt!
I love the description too -

"Fans of Charlotte Bronte and Jane Eyre could totally beat Jane Austen fans in a fight."

What a charming image that is - hundreds of people on a battlefield, armed with copies of their favourite Brönte/Austen novels, fighting to the death :P

lovely

[Patience]

Oooh! I love both! ermm.. Rochester. But they're both so moody and passionate, perfect ;)

[Tosca]

I CAN'T CHOOSE!!!!

I voted for Darcy, and the I changed my mind...a couple of times....

[RobinHood3000]

DARCY, no question. No way I can support Rochester, not after reading Wide Sargasso Sea.

[Shea]

This was a tough decision!!! In the end, I picked Darcy because though he does have the qualms about class, I think its only because of how he was raised and the strong influence of society. However, he had the good grace to overcome this and simply choose the woman he loved. I think that if Lizzie were at the same status of Miss Eyre, he would have married her anyway.

[Annamariah]

This is a very difficult question to answer, since I really do love them both <3 But great topic and great answers, I had to struggle not to laugh out loud while I was reading them at school :lol:

I'm surprised to see that the votes are even, though. Most of my friends would choose Mr Darcy without any hesitation. They cannot understand why I like Mr Rochester so much (and I can't understand why they DON'T like him :D)

Mr Rochester is the one I fell in love first, since I read Jane Eyre about a year before I read Pride and Prejudice, but then Mr Darcy sort of pushed him aside from my mind for a while. Now I just love them both and I can't decide which one I love better :lol:

I thought I should perhaps vote for the one who has fewer votes, but since they're even, I guess I'll wait and vote later :D

[RobinHood3000]

Taking Jane Eyre by itself, Rochester's not that terrible. Yes, he's manipulative, but only for purposes of sounding the depths of the people around him. Yes, he's a bit of a heel, but only because he doesn't like being vulnerable.

However, Rochester is also the mouthpiece for a lot of Bront&#235;'s Victorian bias against foreigners. (I'm pretty sure she's Victorian - my memory could be a bit dodgy, though.) Rochester's mistresses - the French woman and the German woman - are both completely lacking in any romantic merit, and Bertha, the woman who's not even European, is completely out of her mind (or so he says). The Englishwomen in the novel besides Jane may be calculating, but at least most of them have brains. Even Adele, a little French girl, scarcely gets any regard from Rochester beyond the basics. Yes, Rochester treats Bertha better than he could have, and attempts to save her life at the end, but I think that was just a consideration from Bront&#235; to make the seemingly tacked-on ending to Jane Eyre more palatable.

Then if you read Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys, Rochester becomes entirely distasteful. I realize it's sort of unfair to allow revisionist literature to alter the original canon of Jane Eyre, but it poses an interesting viewpoint, in my opinion - that Bertha's insanity is not the result of family nor is it being healed by Rochester's benevolence, but is instead the result of Rochester's own selfishness in his older life and his unwillingness to empathize with anyone who isn't English.

[Sir Bartholomew]

yep, Rochester's in Wide Sargasso Sea too. And we get to see there what he's really like. I'll vote for him because he's more of a monster, like Heathcliff. Darcy's more of a spoilt prince charming, though I love Pride and Prejudice; I'd choose Knightley as the best of Austen's boys.

[ksotikoula]

Then if you read Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhys, Rochester becomes entirely distasteful. I realize it's sort of unfair to allow revisionist literature to alter the original canon of Jane Eyre, but it poses an interesting viewpoint, in my opinion

Ok now you choose to believe an author that didn't designed the original character but just borrowed his name and story to present a monster? Wasn't she being prejudiced in her read of Jane Eyre because of her nationality? I admit that I haven't read her book (and I don't know if I want to as I don't like encouraging stealing and forgery of other people's plot) but some reviewers have said she was as unfair to black women, as Charlotte was to Creoles. Although Charlotte didn't had anything against Creoles, didn't even met one, while Phys was living among black women. Charlotte just needed a story to happen in a far away country so as to be credibly hidden in England. She was not being racist in her descriptions of his mistresses too. She wanted to show he searched the whole world and couldn't find his true love and that is why he loves Jane so passionately.

And I don't want to hear anymore nonsense about Rochester's getting Bertha mad. No one has that kind of power. In Bronte (I repeat and not Wide Sargasso Sea) Bertha was an adulterous woman and I don't believe she is converted into a saint due to her illness. Rochester treats her in the best possible way (and I know what I'm saying being a psychologist and knowing by facts that the only thing possible measure then for cases like Bertha's was restriction which was brutally done in institutions but here we have a private nurse that let her loose whenever possible) and he does not deserve being considered her tormentor for that.

He is guilty for not telling Jane, but is redeemed for his true love for her and the fact that his dissolve of marriage is really a technicality. He could divorce her for adultery but since she was pronounced mad she was not considered responsible for her actions. It was a dead end and he didn't want to even think losing Jane. Charlotte Bronte meant him to be a good man:
"Mr. Rochester has a thoughtful nature and a very feeling heart; he is neither selfish nor self-indulgent; he is ill-educated, misguided; errs, when he does err, through rashness and inexperience: he lives for a time as too many other men live, but being radically better than most men, he does not like that degraded life, and is never happy in it. He is taught the severe lessons of experience and has sense to learn wisdom from them. Years improve him; the effervescence of youth foamed away, what is really good in him still remains. His nature is like wine of a good vintage, time cannot sour, but only mellows him." letter to Mr Williams. So whether you like it or not he was a good man.

He also proves to have a conscience in Adele's and Mrs Fairfax's case and he is no way cold as someone said above. In fact during his role-playing of courting Blanche you often feel him (when he sees her suffer or when she is near to him) at the verge of letting go of that hideous role and as he terms it: "I had much ado often to avoid straining you then and there to my heart"

We must also bear in mind we are judging a man from another era. He may seem despotic and manipulative but he was original and liberal enough to accept Jane's revolutionary character and was the one to say to her more or less "be yourself and I will love you for who you are". What more is love, than acceptance, and how important this is for the orphaned and unloved girl Jane was.

And to the guy that wondered how somebody being a woman could like Rochester. Well for your information the book is a favorite mostly among women and even feminists like Gubart (who wrote "the mad woman in the attic") have acknowledged that they were really tempted and wanted Jane to stay with him. Charlotte Bronte has made possible the impossible. To present a man committing the ultimate offend, but being so wretchedly in love with her heroine, having meshed his life so badly and not being essentially bad, that you actually pity him instead of blaming him. He is human and vulnerable and flawed and that makes him more realistic, interesting and deserving Jane's love after all.

Edit: I forgot to add that when I was an adolescent I liked Darcy better for being more sedate character and gentleman-like. Now I tend to consider him less interesting and boring. I find myself liking excessively more Rochester whom at the beginning thought too dangerous to love. I have come to the conclusion though that it was not exactly Rochester whom I was afraid of when younger but the passionate feelings he created in Jane: the sense that she could lose herself in loving him so much. After dealing with that fear (that Charlotte eliminates through God's punishing Jane for idolizing Rochester and separating them) I felt more comfortable enjoying that splendid male character with that dangerous sexuality Charlotte created. He is far more sexy than Darcy and also less class conscious (which by the way was always the case between Bronte and Austen heroes: Charlotte's were suffocating in the same society that Austen's characters were so keen to preserve). So my vote to Rochester!

[Sepulchrave]

Easily Rochester.

[amalia1985]

Rochester: dark, fascinating, gothic character...

[wessexgirl]

Darcy. He does start off as a prig, but he turns out right in the end. I'm not too sure about Rochester, with the-wife-in-the-attic business. He's a selfish man, but I did like him in the guise of Toby Stephens......:lol:

[Niamh]

Neither. Captain Wentworth all the way! :D

[Joreads]

It has to be Darcy

[Emil Miller]

Thank you, thank you :P

Oh I must have this shirt!
I love the description too -

"Fans of Charlotte Bronte and Jane Eyre could totally beat Jane Austen fans in a fight."

What a charming image that is - hundreds of people on a battlefield, armed with copies of their favourite Brönte/Austen novels, fighting to the death :P

lovely

Make it millions on the battlefield, did you not know that Jane Eyre is on the curriculum in China and literally millions of Chinese girls are in love with Rochester?

[joseph90ie]

.....

[joseph90ie]

.....

[Silas Thorne]

I vote for Charles Wilmot, Earl of Rochester!

[Virgil]

Darcy if I had to pick from those two. But frankly I think the question should be Rochester or Heathcliff? Those are interesting compliments.

[Wilde woman]

Ummm, Rochester IMPRISONED his wife within his own house and then allowed rumors of a resident ghost to scare away all comers. Then he abandons his home and goes cavorting around Europe to sleep with (and discard) practically any pretty face. For a while in Jane Eyre, Jane is just the next fascinating woman to come along. Another conquest to secure. And are we forgetting the fact that he lied to Jane to get her to marry him?

Plus, I'm not convinced that Rochester changed in the end, blindness or not.

On the other hand, I don't think Darcy's a saint either but given the choice, I'd go for the man who happens to exercise a little restraint.

I have to second (third?) the vote for Captain Wentworth. And Virgil has a great point. Rochester vs. Heathcliff...now there's a good debate. :thumbs_up

[Niamh]

Darcy if I had to pick from those two. But frankly I think the question should be Rochester or Heathcliff? Those are interesting compliments.

Well then i'd still choose Captain Wentworth! :lol:

[kiki1982]

You are cruel in your question :(

Both men change into something better towards the end. That is I think what maks them lovable. It makes us forget their bad conduct of before.

Darcy's seech: 'I see nothing handsome in her,' is just downright cruel and bad behaviour.

Yet Rochester's attempt at bigamy is also not really excusable, only for lying to Jane so long...

But both turn out soft-boiled eggs... :)

Darcy's 'My feelings are unchanged, but one word from you will silence them forever,' makes you melt.

However Rochester's 'Our honeymoon will only fade over your grave or mine,' would also met a solid block of ice...

Can I vote twice? :D

[Jassica]

Darcy or Rochester? Darcy or Rochester?
Why there isn't vote "both"?
But, nevertheless, Darcy

[iCherry]

Darcy. Definitely Darcy. I just like him more. But may be it's because I don't like "Jane Eyre"

[PoeticPassions]

So I pick Rochester.. though I have to admit it was a tough choice... But I think I would not pick Rochester as my top choice in general. this might be shocking, but I think I would prefer Heathcliff over Darcy and Roch. (though he's from the other Bronte sister's novel :))

[Jassica]

It will be interesting to add Heathcliff to the poll))

[sunshine_enl]

Darcy!!I never really liked Rochester,I kept wishing she wouldn't stay with him,he looked mean.(and that was before I even read Wide Sargasso Sea).
Darcy:well I always loved him even when he was cruel on Lizzie.

[Sepulchrave]

I would prefer Heathcliff over Darcy and Roch

Aye, so would I.

[Pensive]

Hmmmm tough question! Both are two of my least favourite characters in literature. :p


I would prefer Heathcliff over Darcy and Roch


Aye, so would I.

I second, third, fourth and fifth that! Heathcliff definitely is better than both of them put together! :)

[kelby_lake]

Oh, Darcy! :) sigh :)

[The Comedian]

If only there were a "none of the above" option. . .

:)

[beth01081]

I prefer Rochester. His character is much deeper. Austens hero is very "fluffy" if i may. Good for certain moods. other than that though I prefer Rochester because there is so much more to think about. Is he really a selfish person who turned his wife mad because he's racist? Or is he a noble person who was treating his wife the best way possible under the circumstances? Everytime you read it you can't help but ponder the questions. I love that. You just know what kind of person Darcy is. There is no escaping it. He is a gentleman, and will be a moral, upstanding gentleman for the rest of his life. I like the Pride and prejudice movie but the Jane Eyre book. This being a book site i pick Rochester.

[Niamh]

I think I would prefer Heathcliff over Darcy and Roch.


Aye, so would I.




I second, third, fourth and fifth that! Heathcliff definitely is better than both of them put together! :)

Ugh! Heathcliff:sick:

[PoeticPassions]

Ugh! Heathcliff:sick:

Heathcliff is the best anti-hero/hero of the three, for sure... ah, driven wild by his passions, driven mad by his love.... he is human. He succumbs to vice (vengeance and bitterness), and is far from perfect...
granted, he is a dark, mysterious, and often unlikeable character... but that's what makes him interesting :)

[Niamh]

He doesnt appeal to me. But then again, as most people here know, i'm not a fan of Wuthering Heights. Its very hard to like characters if you dont like the book.

[beth01081]

Gaskell? Do you mean Elizabeth Gaskell who wrote Wives and Daughters?

[beth01081]

I happen to love reading her works. I first saw the movie they made out of Wives and Daughters. it is one of my favorites. Then i read a book called Cranford. It moves slowly, but I thought it was much better than the movie. I saw that a couple years later. The impression I got from the book was much more complete than the movie. Anyways I think you get the point. Why don't you like her? Just because she moves slowly? I think that the tale is interesting enough to allow for the pace unlike (my own opinion purely!!!) Charles Dickens. I can watch the movies but the books repel me. They travel at a glacial pace and it bugs the living daylights out of me. I think I read the first 30(!!!!!) Chapters of Little Dorrit and I hadn't come to the point of the story yet. How annoying is that?! Not to mention that i wasn't even a quarter of the way through. So, like you-Gaskell i quit. So if you feel like that i perfectly understand.

[beth01081]

One of my dad's favorite books is Barneby Rudge. That's the very reason he loves it so much. he said that he trudged through it the first time he read it and everytime since he has found new thing that make him laugh histerically. I wish i could bear the first time through. Unfortunatly I find it impossible. Although maybe it's just Little Dorrit. I should probably try to read barnaby rudge.Well, It couldn't hurt to try. even though I think I was traumatized for life by little dorrit I will try again. Everyone thinks he is a great author so how could I be right? I must try, try again. Just not with Little dorrit. ever again for that one.

[Pensive]

Heathcliff is the best anti-hero/hero of the three, for sure... ah, driven wild by his passions, driven mad by his love.... he is human. He succumbs to vice (vengeance and bitterness), and is far from perfect...
granted, he is a dark, mysterious, and often unlikeable character... but that's what makes him interesting :)

Exactly!

He appears to be just human, not a super human, no perfect man, there isn't one side to his character, he has got a complex character and that's precisely what I like about him.

[Niamh]

hi Niamh...i'm interested to know what it was about W Heights that put you off, as I'm a fan of it myself - or perhaps it was nothing. I don't like Gaskell, and I don't know why, but there it is!

Oh i didnt like it because i found it agravating and annoying. I didnt like the characters and felt no sympathy for any of them.
Now as for Gaskell. I think she is wonderful! Her Ruth was heart breaking. She had a great grasp of what was going on around her. I find her writing a collaboration of the societies of Austen and the life and times of Dickens.

[kelby_lake]

I hate cuddly loveable characters, hence my disliking of Mockingbird. I love me a good warped tortured character.
Would you rather they smiled sweetly and had little tea parties together?

[beth01081]

...hey beth, the last thing I'll say on reading is, there's only one person who's wrong or has provably bad taste, and that's the person who likes every classic under the sun. i mean, it stands to reason, if a person is an individual with a mind of one's own, you're going to take strong exception, to put it mildy, to lots of novels. The novel reflects the mind and personality of the author, and we cannot get along with everyone.

When I love a writer, I am glad and unquestioning, and feel good about myself. When I dislike an author, I only wish to know why myself and this intelligent book do not meet eye-to-eye, why there is a clash of personalities, so to speak. If I can't fathom it, no problem. I can't get along with everyone. -- Now I'm flogging a dead horse and will let this sleeping dog lie!!
way to go on the metaphors. you certainly have strong opinions. The reason I want to try and read it again is because I don't want to just give up because of one failed attempt. Plus i did enjoy one other book of his when I read it in middle school. The Christmas carol. Of that may be because I had my teacher explainging it all to me, and it may have been the abridged version. i'm not sure. Anyways i do think i should try again.

[wessexgirl]

Just a quick question off topic...is your avatar The Sick Child by Munch Joseph? I love Munch.

[kelby_lake]

Munch Bunch :)

The Scream? That's by him, isn't it?

[hollylite]

I say Darcy all the way. I'm read pride and prejudice right now for my world brit. lit. class

[hollylite]

what are you talking about? I thought the poll was about Darcy vs some guy whos name starts with an R. Not to be mean, just curious.

[ksotikoula]

I think that if the question here was "who is the sexiest", Rochester would have had a clean victory;). Now when it comes to overall character, Rochester is not an easy man to live with, let alone to think of his disastrous past. But still I feel that he is a better/nobler character than Darcy who has not been tasted by misfortune much in his life. He is certainly more interesting and imaginative as you don't know what he is going to say or do next.

[Frankie Anne]

This is a tough question. I'm not sure I could pick from these two. Darcy seemed a bit superficial and Rochester a bit dishonest (in my opinion).

I have to agree with the votes for Captain Wentworth. The words "you pierce my soul" make me sigh out loud!

[*Classic*Charm*]

It's all about Darcy for the way he takes care of his little sister

[Lynne Fees]

Dark, gothic & intriguing doesn't make for marriage material. Go for steady and attentive, girls!

[ksotikoula]

Dark, gothic & intriguing doesn't make for marriage material. Go for steady and attentive, girls!

Who talked about marriage material? They are fantasizing material really ;). That is why they are so great! So if you are going to fantasize why not choose the most exciting one :lol:

[Lynne Fees]

True as long as you're not fantasizing marriage! I just often finish one of those "happily ever after" books and think - I'd love to see the sequel in 10 years!

[ksotikoula]

True as long as you're not fantasizing marriage! I just often finish one of those "happily ever after" books and think - I'd love to see the sequel in 10 years!

But Jane Eyre has already been married 10 years and is happy with her dark gothic guy :lol:

[IJustMadeThatUp]

I totally agree that Wentworth is beautiful (though I was disappointed by the actor that played him in the movie version I watched recently).
Darcy, however, wins my vote for this particular poll. I think he is dreamy :lol:

[Lynne Fees]

But Jane Eyre has already been married 10 years and is happy with her dark gothic guy :lol:

I can't argue with you there. I'm sure she smoothed out his rough spots:)

[kiki1982]

Yes, I always found that that last bit was a little too positive... But then again, Brontë wasn't married yet.

It is amazing what she wrote after a few days of marriage... Something about that 'it was tyring to be always needed' or something like that. It must have been a real difference with her former life... But nonetheless, I sometimes wonder if she thought about the ending of Jane Eyre when she was married to Nicholls. :p

I'm afraid I voted Darcy (I think) because he is so... how does one say... Rochester is exciting but Darcy is just the man. (And I hadn't seen Firth in the role yet.) I'd like to see a 10-year-sequel of Pride and Prejudice. Those two strong minds together, it could be interesting... I think Rochester and Jane would go much smoother.

[onioneater]

First of all, I'm a man but I get the dilemma. And don't crucify me for what I'm about to say, but it's an interesting idea inspired by the Spanish play "In the Burning Darkness", in which Ignacio is a blind youth in a blind institution who suggests that sighted women who marry blind men are ugly and they marry blind men who are attracted to them beyond their physicality. OK, so here's a possible way to view this decision:

Women who are paranoid about their looks and don't think they're beautiful physically, prefer Rochester because he can't see them.
Women who are confident hotties prefer Darcy.

What do you think?

[ksotikoula]

Women who are paranoid about their looks and don't think they're beautiful physically, prefer Rochester because he can't see them.
Women who are confident hotties prefer Darcy.

No that's not the issue here. It has to do about the depth of love though. Independently whether a woman is beautiful or not likes to be loved for something more than her beauty. And that is mainly because beauty doesn't last. Most women wouldn't like to think that their partners will love them as long as they are beautiful because all people are getting old there will always will be someone more beautiful or younger.

Rochester's appeal is that he understood the woman inside that insignificant frame and loved her for herself. And a reminder: Rochester wanted Jane when he had his eyesight and could compare her to the hotty Blanche.
But to give justice to Darcy too he didn't like Elizabeth so much externally in the beginning but she turned out to be one of the most beautiful women of England because he was falling for her character and originality. However I could never see him with a Jane. And that makes the whole difference. It is about how much flawed can you stand your heroes to be, before accepting them. Rochester as a man would be a walking disaster, nothing like the classical prince charming. He is ugly, he has no manners, he is sarcastic and arrogant, he has made terrible mistakes, he has a harem of mistresses and possibly illegitimate children, you would not bet on his principles, he ends up crippled...but despite all this he is still lovable and able to love sincerely. This would sound so very improbable and romantic but in a way is closer to reality. Because aside the question of how many flawless men do you know, love is the acceptance of the other and his flaws together.

[ksotikoula]

Yes, I always found that that last bit was a little too positive... But then again, Brontë wasn't married yet.

It is amazing what she wrote after a few days of marriage... Something about that 'it was tiring to be always needed' or something like that. It must have been a real difference with her former life... But nonetheless, I sometimes wonder if she thought about the ending of Jane Eyre when she was married to Nicholls. :p


Kiki Charlotte's marriage is a huge issue because some people wanted to present her unhappy in her marriage, which she wasn't, and tried even to forge her letters. The sentence which you mention goes like this:
"Since I came home I have not had an unemployed moment; my life is changed indeed - to be wanted continually - to be constantly called for and occupied seems so strange: yet it is a marvellously good thing. As yet I don't quite understand how some wives grow so selfish - as far as my experience of matrimony goes - I think it tends to draw you out of, and away from yourself."

The sentence that puzzled some people is "it is a solemn and strange and perilous thing for a woman to become a wife" but that seems to be a warning to Ellen for a future marriage because Charlotte urges her to wait God's will. As she did, when she announced her wedding to Ellen with the word "Providence offers me this destiny. Doubtless then it is the best for me".

[kiki1982]

@ksotikoula:

I am not at all arguing she was unhappy. She loved the man and despite 5years of resistance on her father's part she took no other proposal until her father was desperate and then she told him that she only wanted Nicholls after which her father (maybe out of desperation to get her married) consented. Bless her and Arthur. No doubt they were very happy (if you read what she wrote about him on her deathbed about his devotion).

I just think that she wrote the last of Jane Eyre out of a pretty ideal picture of what marriage should be like and not what it is like. Having been married almost 10 years myself, I may say that I and my husband understand each other very well, that we are the best friends and that we talk all day long. That said, it is not a path of roses from the first day to the last and I just think that she was pretty straight forward in her 'fantasy' so to say. It is nice to think that 'our hearts [can] beat as one', but will it really happen like that a lot?

But then anyway, she went for truth and not reality.

@Onioneater:

There might be something in that, but don't forget that might be the opinion of the author of the play. Rochester indeed wanted Jane already before he was blind and his feelings did not change, although maybe got deeper than he thought they were. Darcy didn't think Elizabeth was extremely beautiful and had a prejudice against country girls. Obviously because they all wanted him because of his purse. Imagine being Darcy: every time you turn up at a party the only thing mothers do is trying to get their daughters in your good books. No matter your character, no matter you manners; your purse, that is what counts. The rumours about your mansion and your fortune arrive always much earlier than yourself and they stick to you like flies. Yet, you yourself would like to get to know a woman who is more intelligent than the ones who are 'accomplished' in Caroline Bingley's idea; a woman who also 'broadens her mind by extensive reading', but you never find one; you would like to find a woman who you can sit in your mansion with and talk seriously to, not only play cards with, see her embroidering, hear her play on the pianoforte, and for the rest shut up or sit in your library like Mr Bennet is forced to do. You want to be able to respect your wife for what she has in her head, not for what she looks like, because then you end up like Mr Bennet. You want someone you feel comfortable to be with so you don’t have to hang around with your own sex and for the rest sit and wait until the day is over. And then you meet a girl who is not extremely beautiful, but whom you grow to respect because she has more to offer than what she looks like: she can count, she reads and does not prefer cards, she plays but prefers other more meaningful activity and she walks a great deal causing her to have a tan. You had never thought it of yourself, but you are considering marrying beneath yourself because it makes you happy; because there is no other woman you would prefer; she is 'accomplished' in your books and tons more interesting than any Caroline Bingley.

Rochester, deep inside, is also a very intelligent man and I would think, in the meantime, has grown to look beyond beauty because he knows there is nothing to get there (Bertha). He grows to respect Jane because she is learned, or at least has the potential to become so. I'd like to think he had rarely met a woman so smart and learned, considering that girls were not really supposed to have anything to say. They were supposed to embroider, to play the piano, to sing, to read (girls' novels), to make conversation. Not to have anything intelligent to say about literature, philosophy, arithmetic (remember his remark one of the first meetings). Darcy is quite surprised at Elizabeth knowing that 'half a dozen' equals 6. Out of that I conclude that women could not even count properly in some cases... Imagine living with that. You as an educated man (at Cambridge or Oxford) have a wife who can't even do 12 divided by 2. The stupidity Blanche Ingram displays is much the same as Caroline Bingley’s: Blanche Ingram takes up a book to avoid scrutiny of the rest of the company after the gypsy, without reading it of course - Caroline takes up a book because it is the second volume of Darcy's; Blanche laughs at governesses because they are stupid - Caroline finds that being accomplished means what was mentioned above 'despite the fact that nothing is known about the feelings of a man' about that.

In essence, both Darcy and Rochester would like someone they can spend time with without being bored. Only, in Rochester it is emphasised by his blindness. Darcy is not blind but does not prefer the company of Caroline. Because 'beauty is in the eye of the gazer', Elizabeth has become 'one of the most beautiful women of [his] circle' and for Rochester, Jane has become 'fairly beautiful' (note the ironic value of beauty). Beauty in Greek philosophy is indeed something to be seen by the gazer through his own virtue and so it is not peculiar that Rochester can see beauty despite his blindness. Darcy has changed as well and so can see more beauty in Lizzy than he saw before.

Jane, at the end of Jane Eyre, has more self-confidence. Lizzy always had confidence. Both, though, are aware of their inferior status. Lizzy would never have dreamed of catching Darcy and Jane never dreamed of catching Rochester. By the end, though, both are confident that they can, although they are both aware that it is not their looks their men have fallen for. Though Lizzy is more beautiful than Jane (Jane Eyre), both women are chosen for their mind. And in that, Darcy and Rochester stand on one line: the one handsome and the other rather ugly; the one having a clear image in his head about a possible wife, the other having been disappointed in his first choice; the one seemingly arrogant but unfortunately rather shy, the other really arrogant (although by the end a little tempered); the one a good and virtuous man from the start, the other having lost all his illusions and we might say, finding them back slowly; finally, both very intelligent men.

We do have to remember that Rochester is about 10 years Darcy's senior when he is playing his role. So he is in another phase of his life than Darcy.

I think a non-hotty could have tried to get Rochester, but I don't it would have worked on him if she didn't have anything to say. Nor had it worked with Darcy if she didn't have anything in her head.

[Dark Lady]

Have to say Rochester! Despite his faults.

I can't understand anyone saying Heathcliffe, though!! Why? I detested pretty much all of the characters in that novel (not to mention the novel itself). It's supposed to be a great love story? The only love I saw was characters in love with themselves. At some point I will reread it because I'm so convinced I must have missed something but I don't think I see myself changing my mind...

[Lynne Fees]

Have to say Rochester! Despite his faults.

I can't understand anyone saying Heathcliffe, though!! Why? I detested pretty much all of the characters in that novel (not to mention the novel itself). It's supposed to be a great love story? The only love I saw was characters in love with themselves. At some point I will reread it because I'm so convinced I must have missed something but I don't think I see myself changing my mind...

I don't think you missed anything. I think Healthcliffe had serious problems with depression. Apparently we were supposed to think everything he did was justified due to the abuse he suffered as a child? Excuse me?


First of all, I'm a man but I get the dilemma. And don't crucify me for what I'm about to say, but it's an interesting idea inspired by the Spanish play "In the Burning Darkness", in which Ignacio is a blind youth in a blind institution who suggests that sighted women who marry blind men are ugly and they marry blind men who are attracted to them beyond their physicality. OK, so here's a possible way to view this decision:

Women who are paranoid about their looks and don't think they're beautiful physically, prefer Rochester because he can't see them.
Women who are confident hotties prefer Darcy.

What do you think?

I'm just kidding about that title...your views are accepted and cherished and this is an equal opportunity thread, BUT women do like to think they understand men better than men understand themselves, you know!:lol:

[Dark Lady]

I don't think you missed anything. I think Healthcliffe had serious problems with depression. Apparently we were supposed to think everything he did was justified due to the abuse he suffered as a child? Excuse me?

That's a relief! I get kind of defensive when it comes to my dislike of Wuthering Heights, and condemnation of the two main characters. At least there are others who see what I see. My fiance says I have a thing for guys with baggage so I'd have thought if anyone would get the Heathcliffe thing I would! But I just don't.

[dfloyd]

the Rochester who was Jack Benny's valet.

[higley]

I recall commenting on my dislike of Heathcliffe on another forum a while ago, and got quite a tongue-lashing from a displeased girl because of it! She said something to the effect that I just didn't "get" him. So I'm glad to hear of others who don't think of him as just misunderstood.

[victorianfan]

I have to say Darcy. He's a sophisticated gentleman. Rochester is more of a savage!

[Alexandra S.]

I'll go for Darcy just because he is the unexpected character!He falls in love with Eliza but he still "tortures" us till the end,and that for me is a good reason to support him!Jane Austen is so into the marriage issue,and becomes rather boring sometimes that Darcy figures as our savior!Correct me but this mysterious type of man,the harsh and sometimes odd,excites most of women.

[kelby_lake]

And darcy is colin firth :P

Although Rochester might be a more complex character, as a partner he is not desirable. He's a womaniser who locked his mad first wife in an attic.

[Emil Miller]

And darcy is colin firth :P

Although Rochester might be a more complex character, as a partner he is not desirable. He's a womaniser who locked his mad first wife in an attic.

I think a lot of men have wanted to lock their wives in an attic whether they're mad or not. I recently asked someone why he didn't take his wife out more often and he said it would be totally counterproductive because the reason he went out so often was to get away from her.

[Scheherazade]

And darcy is colin firth :PNuff said.

[victorianfan]

Although Rochester might be a more complex character, as a partner he is not desirable. He's a womaniser who locked his mad first wife in an attic.

Excelently put, my friend! :thumbsup:

[Three Sparrows]

I can't say Rochester is my favorite-I wish Jane had married Mr.St.John.:cold:
If husbands were sold in stores, Darcy would be sold out.

[Delta40]

Darcy strikes me as strong and all powerful which is not without its attraction. however Rochester as well as being a man of position, also displays a weakness and neediness which tells women, 'I cannot be this powerful without you.' Women are all too glad to lend a hand when so obviously needed!

[wessexgirl]

I have to say Darcy. He's a sophisticated gentleman. Rochester is more of a savage!

Is that why your avatar is Rochester :nod:, or is it the lovely Toby you're liking? :biggrin5:

[Annamariah]

Here's another one who cannot understand why anyone would love Heathcliff! I don't like Wuthering Heights (I've read it twice) because I cannot like any of its characters... For the first part of the book I actually felt sorry for Heathcliff and thought that he might be a good person given the chance, but then I read on and it was proved that he had no kindess in him whatsoever.

About Fitzwilliam Darcy and Edward Rochester - I still can't really make up my mind between the two of them. As they are still (unfortunately) only fictional characters, perhaps I'll be allowed to love them both equally? :D

[victorianfan]

Here's another one who cannot understand why anyone would love Heathcliff! I don't like Wuthering Heights (I've read it twice) because I cannot like any of its characters... For the first part of the book I actually felt sorry for Heathcliff and thought that he might be a good person given the chance, but then I read on and it was proved that he had no kindess in him whatsoever.


I don't like Heathcliff! :incazzato:

[Annamariah]

I don't like Heathcliff! :incazzato:

As I said, me neither, but I rather like your avatar :D

[mystery_spell]

If I'm being honest, I have a soft spot for both of them. Darcy is a gentleman and speaks so eloquently (thank you, Jane Austen); Rochester has an unfortunate past and interesting present, which makes him fascinating. It's hard to choose just one, but I think I'd have to choose Darcy. Rochester definitely deserves happiness--not that Darcy doesn't, but Darcy is just Darcy. Need I say more? :)