The reason we die?

[linz]

In Genesis, after Eve gave to Adam of the forbidden tree, man became knowledgeable of good and evil. Did God need to make us die simply so we couldn't be evil without consequences, having eternity in our laps?

[dzebra]

I don't think it is that God needed to make us die. Death is the consequence of sin. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they brought it upon themselves. There is no evil that can be done without a consequence. When they ate, I don't think that at that point in time God decided that they were going to die. I think that's just the way sin works.

[Dark Muse]

It is necessary to the continuation of the human race on a whole for individual people to die.

If no one ever died then plain and simple we would run out of space, the earth is not going to get any bigger and some people have to die to make room for others, or else eventually every square inch would be occupied, and everything else would eventually be used up and the human race probably along with all other living things, would be extinguished because there would be nothing left.

[Nightshade]

Does the Bible say somewheer that death is somehow related to sin?
:confused:

[kilted exile]

Does the Bible say somewheer that death is somehow related to sin?
:confused:

Ok, I am trying to remember back to my days as a good little believer, I think the linkage is that after the eating of the apple and the fall from Eden humans no longer had the immortality they had whilst in the garden and that as a result death & sin are linked this way - I am sure one of the others will fill in the gaps/errors this likely contains.



Anyway, now to the opening question: No, god does not have to make us die as a result - there are other options that could have been taken


I think a more interesting slant to take on the question is - What would be the characteristic we would desire most in a father: Accepts our misdemeanors and let us continue as we were OR Cast us out of the home to wander? Could both of these actions not show a father's benevolence & love?

[dzebra]

In James 1:15, the Bible says that evil desire gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death.

Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death.

There are other places, but those are some of the more direct statement in the Bible about the correlation between sin and death.

On another note, back in Genesis, after the people had eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God said that man should not be allowed to eat of the tree of life, which would make him live forever. It sort of sounds like it was never the case that humans couldn't die.

If that is the case, and humans were going to die anyway, whether they ate the fruit or not, then the death that is brought about by sin is merely a spiritual death, rather than being both a spiritual death and a physical death.

Were humans going to physically die anyway whether or not they ate the fruit?

And in regard to the last question posted, I could see some logic in either choice (accepting that people messed up and overlooking it vs. casting them out of the garden), but the way it stands does seem to make a strong lesson with a powerful point about how much God dislikes disobedience.

[Pendragon]

If sin was the cause of death, the only cause, then it were foolish to even try to live by any religious code, for all die in the end.

Sin introduced death into the world, for without sin there would have been no death.

But now the righteous may die with the assurance that their sins are forgiven and forgotten.

Ezekiel says "The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

Jesus said Matt.10: [28] "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The death of the soul is the true death completely destroyed.

God Bless

Pen

[blazeofglory]

There is nothing called death saving the word. It is a short respite and indeed the putting down of the burden of life for a short time, something intervening only. Life is eternal and death is a sheer name only not a reality.

[wilbur lim]

Death does not elucidates that our life had ceased,maybe we could go to Hell for punishment,whereas Heaven for nirvana.God intends us to live,devoid of too much sins,as the Bible had cited that we should govern ourselves.

[NikolaiI]

"None can die. None can be degraded forever..." - Vivekananda

[Riesa]

In Genesis, after Eve gave to Adam of the forbidden tree, man became knowledgeable of good and evil. Did God need to make us die simply so we couldn't be evil without consequences, having eternity in our laps?

Wow, another question so aptly put, meanwhile... life is here to live. to breathe, to weep to jump. you don't have eternity in your laps, you have your life in your hands. :)

[Shalot]

Maybe this life that we have here on Earth as physical beings is not so much a "life" as it a stage, or a step in development. Many religious groups accept the concept of a soul that continues to exist after the physical body dies, and if you look at our existence on earth as a step in development of the soul, then yes, the reason we die is sin. When we make a mistake (or commit a sin) then we either realize we made a mistake and learn from it or we don't. If we recognize our wrongs, then we can progress, as souls. We would have learned the lesson. When we recognized our wrongs, there would be sorrow in our souls and death would just be the end of a soul lesson, and then where your soul goes next is a matter of how much you learned from the soul lesson.

[JBI]

God doesn't curse Adam telling him he will die, therefore I think it is safe to say, based on the book, that the fall from Eden isn't connected with death, but connected with the ignorance of death. The same way God doesn't curse Eve, and merely points out "what she is" (according to the book). The book doesn't really allow for subjectivity, so it is difficult to put a what-if-they-didn't-eat-from-the-tree in there, but I see no problem arguing that death existed before there expulsion. As God pointed out, his creation was complete, therefore it is assumptive that he created death.

Further, he seems not to "create" death, or curse Adam with death here, but merely state it;

Genesis 3: 19 from the King James Version


In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

He seems to be telling, as a sort of poetic flare, not to be creating it. Adam perhaps could have died in the garden, who knows. That isn't really the point. I would argue, death and destruction exist beforehand.

Now, if we are going on a Christian theological perspective, it is safe to say that there has already been one rift in heaven, between the factions of God and Satan. I would think the best commentary on this would have to be Blake's Tyger, with the great quatrain:


When the stars threw down their spears,
And watered heaven with their tears,
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

God is believed in the Judeo-Christian tradition to be all knowing. Therefore he must have known about the uprising in Heaven (in the Christian tradition only), and the fall of man (from both traditions). Therefore, it is safe to say, when he created Adam, I would argue, he created him on the assumption that he would fall and die. This is problematic of course, but there is no logical way out of it. Either god knows everything, or he doesn't, and according to the tradition, he does. He therefore created all the evils in the world knowing they are evil.

Now, this naturally brings us back to Job, and the classic were you there when I laid the foundations of the world, and who are you to judge me. What that essentially comes to is, god wanted us to die, and wanted us to suffer, and wanted us to sin, and wanted us to rot in hell, or go to heaven, and we cannot ask why, and cannot be assured of good things happening to us. We can lose everything, and yet if we go against god, we would be sinning. I think that is problematic to say the least.

[El Viejo]

It's a consequence of The Fall, but is it a consequence, like a burn is a consequence of touching a hot stove, or is it a consequence like arrest is a consequence of throwing a pie at the President's limo? The Bible, as nearly as I can recall, doesn't say.

A writer or pastor once explained that, given our imperfect nature, death is the most loving thing God could give us. Who'd want to live forever like this?

I think we die because it is the norm in our universe that everything eventually wears out, runs down, stops.

[Sin of Red]

We are placed on this world to do what we can, and to bring into existence more, whether we choose to sin and damn ourselves to hell is our way to say "hey, I'm enjoying my life, I know I shall die, so I shall live my life". Or somthing like that. God, I beleive, put us here to do our best, and to do what we belive is right, even if it is not nesciarilly what is right to others. Why did he give us free-will? So we can be diffrent. Why do we die? Because he knows that if we lived forever, and experince to much pain.

Sorry, I have a bad problem with rambling.:goof::smash:

[Shield&Sword]

The question will be answered if you answer the question: why we live?
and why did God create Adam and Eve?
Death is not a punishment, if it was a punishment then there wont be any meaning for being good because at the end all will be punished. Its an end of a determined period, If you ever thought why you are breathing right now, eating, talking.

[RG57]

If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, then I think that they may have had eternal life, a part of their punishment was death.

[El Viejo]

If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, then I think that they may have had eternal life, a part of their punishment was death.

Once they'd eaten of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, God was concerned that they'd also eat of the Tree of Life, so he ejected them from the garden. Death was a side effect of being cut off from the Tree of Life.

Of course the Tree of Life may have been forbidden as well. Imagine if that were the case, and they'd chosen the Tree of Life first. We might be living a comparatively idyllic life right now, except for eating our bread in the sweat of our brows, delivering chldren in pain and travail, and women being ruled over by their husbands. At least we wouldn't know good and evil.

What would that mean though? That we were incapable of evil, or that we just wouldn't recognize it as such when we committed it?

[librarius_qui]

In Genesis, after Eve gave to Adam of the forbidden tree, man became knowledgeable of good and evil. Did God need to make us die simply so we couldn't be evil without consequences, having eternity in our laps?


The question will be answered if (...)

What is the question again? Let me see if I understood it right.

"What's the reason we die?"
& "Did the Hebrew god make human kind" (according to Hebrew belief) "to make mankind and each man & woman die?"

You see ... Not all here have (or have to have) the same ground of belief ...

Anyway, did this god make a man to die?, lets wander ...

Did a god make me to die? (Right, I know the answer to that ...)

Now, did your god make you to die? So, my question would be ... What is your god again? Because, if you have a god, and if he is your god, you know him, or are in search for him ... Or have been found by him. It means that you may find answer to your question.

This means, maybe, that other people's answers may make no difference for you to find yours. Maybe. Maybe it will make. I have to admit that usually it makes, and that asking is a wise thing.

Have you decided to believe in anything at all? Why not to start believing in life? (As many here have proposed ...) Is life a good thing? Do you live? Don't you? If you don't, then you're dead, and have nothing to worry about, 'cause you're already dead.

If you live, you worry not about death.

Unless the way you live makes you have a doubt. So, what's the way, will this be the question?

So, lets get out of to be or not to be, and arrive at how to be, shall we? ... Which way to go.

Of course, sometimes to live is simply to go ... move along, without ... meaning, it seems.

When you get together with a friend, or some friends, to have a good time together, those kind of friends you'd like time with them never to end ... Is that to live, or to deceive death ... Or doubt? ...

I will probably confuse you more than to give you an answer on this matter. Considering you're actually willing to have an answer. I don't even know you! ...

What are you?
Who are you?

(Religiously/spiritually speaking?)

(Besides a human being?)

What do you do for living?
Do you do anything for mankind?
For your city?
For your family?

For yourself? ...

Does each answer to each question lead you to think about life or about death?
Is this death related to you or to someone near you?

Once this is a reading forum, I'd suggest some reading.

If you really wish to read something, lets talk. Send me a pm.
There are things not to be spoken in public. Not, at least, by me.

I'm only a very mortal human being! Woe to me!
And, to talk about death, I'd have to talk about something else that I'll definitely not do on written word straight forward ... I'm no philosopher, and I absolutely abhor theology(ies)!

Difficult thing, though, to talk about death without trying to run away from the subject ... :thumbs_up Wonderful question! :thumbs_up


librarius
:bawling:

[JBI]

If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, then I think that they may have had eternal life, a part of their punishment was death.

There isn't room for that speculation in the Bible. God is all knowing and all powerful. He therefore knew they would eat from the tree of Knowledge, and therefore knew they would be banished.

God comes a-walking knowing they have eaten from the tree (if we accept the tradition, and not the notion that the chapters can be of different traditions).

Job is the answer to everything in the Bible. The simple answer, if you believe in him, god doesn't have to answer to you, and therefore what happens is for the good. Leibnizian to the extreme, but that is the logic behind the bible.

[NikolaiI]

I think the vast number of movies or shows personifying death in one way or another have shown the reason we die. If we didn't life would be so crowded! Eventually we would be starving to death but would have nothing to eat. It would be complete torment. So death is part of the natural cycle.

[JBI]

I'm of the mind to think we find our meaning in life from death. If we didn't die, we couldn't possibly function, as all our values stem from the life over death binary.