Does God want us to pray?

[blazeofglory]

This is indeed a very harrowing and irksome question. We are free thinkers and as such there is no boundary or limit set to us and our imaginative flights can take greater heights and indeed we do not choose to be incarcerated within sets of ideas.

That we are created by God; that we all originate from Him; that he is almighty; that this universe is the manifestation of his colossal being; that all of us are his progenies are notions we all kind of choose to pivot on in point of fact.

We know he is above commendation and condemnation. Then he is no entity of vanity and has no carnal desires the rest of us suffer from. He is indeed above approval and disapproval. In essence he is above all attributes. Yet why do we try to make a correlation between two opposing forces love and hate.

Why should our prayers please him and our insolence offend him?

We human beings rationalize things and try to confine God within our limits of understanding or values or set standards. We try to lock up him in a captivity of our knowledge. Is he not big hearted to see all us mortal’s salutations eulogies or adulations to be subjected to moods/

Does God simply help those who flatter him? Or become very vexed with those who are apathetic to those who do not cajole?

I am not kind of an advocate of Spirituality and materiality but such questions pop up and I can not ignore them. I do not whether these ideas are corrupting me or opening a bigger gate to truth.

I want all to have their own ideas across which I believe will take us close to truth if not to truth.

[Lumino_Christi]

Blaze,

Let me start by observing your thoughtfullness in writing this new thread. You really seem to have some genuine questions.

With that said, I'm going to take one or two of your questions and expound upon them, and that should open up discussion.

1.
In essence he is above all attributes. Yet why do we try to make a correlation between two opposing forces love and hate.

While you are correct, God IS above all attributes, our world is not. We have to deal with love and hate every day. The correlation between the two is that during all of our lifetimes, we will experience a good deal of both. It is the amount of love or hate that we experience, and how we deal with it, that will make or break us as human persons. Part of dealing with either of those, then, is explaining where they came from. We want to place attributes upon an indescribable being because there are points in our lives where we either don't deserve what happens to us or we don't know why it happens. The human person, when confronted with an intellectually insurmountable question, is very tempted to look to a supreme being for answers. Why we love and why we hate are things we are never going to find an origin for. Some feel that we've created love and hate because of your own actions as a human race. The correlation between two opposing forces, love and hate, is God.

2.
Does God simply help those who flatter him? Or become very vexed with those who are apathetic to those who do not cajole?

God loves all people unconditionally. Whether an individual chooses to return that love is up to them, but their reaction to God's love has no affect on God's affection toward them, no matter how badly they treat him.

That's all I have. Thanks for opening up this discussion, and thank you for your thoughtfullness.

[Pendragon]

Let me ask you this:

You have a child. This child has problems from time to time but never asks you for help. If something the child has breaks, he or she will spend hours trying to fix what you could fix in a few minutes. But they refuse to ask for help. Him or her act as though you do not exist. You try to talk to them, but they do not listen. You find them asking the neighbor for advice. How do you feel?

That is why God wants us to pray.

God Bless

Pen

[NikolaiI]

The reasons I pray can be broken down as follows. I observe myself, my corpereal form, and I know that this puts the lie to wordly, vain, vulgar, knowledge. I observe myself and see that my destiny is spirituality, is heaven, is an abstract realization through the light of God. My insight and realizations all point towards non-duality. Observing my corpereal form puts the lie to worldly knowledge, and shows my destiny of spirituality-- my insights into the differences between being and material engagement show me both that as all these phenomena are passing, thus they do not exist in relation to the eternal, and also that my true nature is not limited by time or space. The progression of philosophy under the guidance of true ideas has brought me to the understanding of God as the source of goodness and reality, as the Godhead. Blaze, you know more than you think you do, and if you can clear off misperceptions, you'll be at one with the Godhead. It is entirely true that we are given what we ask for, be it beauty, truth, knowledge or peace, so if you want peace, and you want knowledge, these will be given you if you pursue them, but you must take yourself there, and be carried by unremitting faith and devotion. Only then can you stand up, when you've always been submerged, and only then can you climb out of ignorance, and soar. When you get there, when you arrive at this truth, you must trust yourself, when you hear yourself saying that you cannot forget this. This is, as described in Hinduism, progress made towards the Supreme. What does prayer mean? It means to pray, we could say to ask for God. But it is nothing without faith and devotion. You must have faith in God, and you must let this guide you into eventually having faith in yourself. This is very important, because you can attain the Supreme, it is possible. And when you attain the source, you will have already progressed beyond not having faith in yourself. You must trust yourself to have faith in yourself. Prayer is useless without already possessing the knowledge, or without a teacher who can guide you into the knowledge; and with these things, you still must be willing to accept true knowledge, and accept faith in God and yourself. Now when all of these things have been considered and internalized, then faith and prayer become means for the spiritual realization in the light of God. It becomes the path to the Supreme, and to the source-- the path to reality. I have to go now, so I guess i'll come back ot his later.

[blazeofglory]

There are indeed very subliming points in your post. I agree there are some points, very appropriate points of course. I believe prayer has power and if not top help link with the Cosmic soul at least it makes our mind very sublime. It certainly transcends our mind and I have no nuances of doubt in this. I also prayed much in my babyhood sometimes even hours and hours. I had moments I simply cornered myself to a room and engaged in prayer. I have undergone subliminal experiences. I am fully and certainly in-dubiously convinced of the power of prayer.

Yet I have something different to say. We often believe that God is powerful and almighty and he is the ultimate power beyond the creation of the universe and indeed something subtle that is beyond the Copernican' ideas of the universe and Darwinian theory of evolution or natural selection.

If God is so why does he need prayer? Can not he be kind to us without prayer? If we are his progenies why should he need applauses after all. He must be indifferent to both attributes, both, tributes or insults.

God is a process, not a thing the way we rationalize it. It is not a He or a She. It is not a thing or subject. It is just a phenomenon, an energy-source . This is what I understand if I happen to believe in God.

God, understanding him through this concept is neutral to all our attributes. Prayer has little to do with God despite convention coerce us to make prayer.

[Lumino_Christi]

"Prayer has little to do with God"

That statement discards a key tenet of the Catholic faith. Could you elaborate on exactly why you think this?

[B-Mental]

My form of prayer is probably similar to Nik's, but a little different. I never ask for anything for God has already given me the ways to achieve that which I desire, and I have reduced my desires to that which I can obtain... But when I witness something beautiful in the world, I say a prayer of gratitude. I am thankful for witnessing it. Sometimes I believe that we exist to record the beauty that god created. Even these small prayers of gratitude give me strength.

[NikolaiI]

There are indeed very subliming points in your post. I agree there are some points, very appropriate points of course. I believe prayer has power and if not top help link with the Cosmic soul at least it makes our mind very sublime. It certainly transcends our mind and I have no nuances of doubt in this. I also prayed much in my babyhood sometimes even hours and hours. I had moments I simply cornered myself to a room and engaged in prayer. I have undergone subliminal experiences. I am fully and certainly in-dubiously convinced of the power of prayer.

Yet I have something different to say. We often believe that God is powerful and almighty and he is the ultimate power beyond the creation of the universe and indeed something subtle that is beyond the Copernican' ideas of the universe and Darwinian theory of evolution or natural selection.

If God is so why does he need prayer? Can not he be kind to us without prayer? If we are his progenies why should he need applauses after all. He must be indifferent to both attributes, both, tributes or insults.

God is a process, not a thing the way we rationalize it. It is not a He or a She. It is not a thing or subject. It is just a phenomenon, an energy-source . This is what I understand if I happen to believe in God.

God, understanding him through this concept is neutral to all our attributes. Prayer has little to do with God despite convention coerce us to make prayer.

If you read my post again, and carefully, you might see more than you saw the first time. When you say that God is "Just an energy source", you maybe missing that He is not just an energy source, he is actually the source of reality, and all of our thinking-- God is reality, a more true reality. Now we have freedom of choice, and I do not mean to coerce anyone, nor do I think anyone should be: I am very much against this. I'm only trying to present my view as clearly and intelligbly as possible. No, God does not "need" our prayers-- no more than nature needs our ideas. Or maybe that is not a perfect analogy. I don't think that I have perfect knowledge of this, but I do think that prayer is a process or path by which we attain the Supreme. When we attain the Supreme, or source, I conjecture we will be at peace with a knowledge which makes everything we have known previously seem very superfluous. As, because the phenomena is passing, therefore it doesn't exist in relation to the Supreme.

Anyway, God, being the source of goodness, and the source of reality, is certainly not affected by our prayers. Prayer is a path for attaining the Supreme, or the abstract realization through spirituality. And if we do not consider these lofty regions to be our destination, then we at least are calmed by prayer, and it has healing benefits; but these benefits are but a shadow of what we ought to be doing with it. It is like insecurities which keep us from settling down, from being still. We are insecure and have no idea of how to progress forward, of how to look at things, of what is true, of what is, of what should be. And all of this is not necessarily magically "solved" by prayer, but if we don't know what is true, then prayer only benefits us at half-capacity, so to speak...

[Bakiryu]

I basically do not see the point of prayer.
If you talk to God, you pray, but if IT answers you're insane. God hasn't really shown much proof of its presence, prayer or not.

[blazeofglory]

What is God? Can our sensory perceptions perceive Him / Her? why do we masculinze God? Is God the way we have a mythological image of it? Is it a body that feels the way we feel and is affected by phenomena the way we do? Is it affected by praise or reprisal or prayers the way we human beings are?

Are mythological descriptions of God correct? Different mythologies gave different notions of God, and indeed all describe God differently. Which one is correct we cannot say.

This too questions the very need of prayer. Does it have to do anything with prayer to please God. Is He pleased or angered the way we do? If it is what differences remain between God or human beings?

[Whifflingpin]

"It is just a phenomenon, an energy-source . This is what I understand if I happen to believe in God."
If your belief is correct, then prayer does not please god, nor lack of prayer displease it, because please/displease have no meaning in the context. In this case, prayer might be thought of as an attempt to tap into the energy source, or even to feed it.

" "Prayer has little to do with God"
That statement discards a key tenet of the Catholic faith. "
The statement would be considered untrue by anyone who believed that God was a person. To such people prayer, be it praise, petition, thanks or apology, is simply the natural consequence of living intimately with another person.

[Bethany_Argyros]

As i recall Jesus specifically said something about God wanting us to pray. I like the metaphor about the child. But something that's being left out is annoying me.

There is a parable, i dont remember where it is in the bible, but it goes like this: there are two angels who come down to earth to collect prayers for God. On the way back, the first angel began speaking about the weight of his basket. He explained that he had been sent to collect the requests of the people of the town. He then asked the second angel what she had been sent to collect. The second angel replied that she had been sent to collect the thanks and praise of God. She had only two prayers in her basket.

i guess i can't word it better than that.

[blazeofglory]

God is something that rivets our mind as a matter of fact on an assortmnet of images. A subject that is so deepening. I for one got absorbed all my life in the question surrounding God.

God is an enigma, an obsession we can not do away with, a feeling, a quiver that is so much entrenched in our life.

I do not know for sure God really exists, and maybe I got cajoled into believing, maybe this is owing to the fact that I was programmed or conditioned to belieive.

In fact, honestly speaking I never got helped by God in the oridnary course of life I have to work hard to survive, prosper, do better.

Notwithstanding the fact that there are too many mentions about God's help as a father figure, or some tales of miracles, but in reality it never happens.

Despite everything I do say from a logic or syllologic standpoint, or through empirical evidences I have a tinge of feeling, a very deep rooted feeling that God or some source do exists that controls everything, including the law of nature.

[Virgil]

God is something that rivets our mind as a matter of fact on an assortmnet of images. A subject that is so deepening. I for one got absorbed all my life in the question surrounding God.

God is an enigma, an obsession we can not do away with, a feeling, a quiver that is so much entrenched in our life.

I do not know for sure God really exists, and maybe I got cajoled into believing, maybe this is owing to the fact that I was programmed or conditioned to belieive.

In fact, honestly speaking I never got helped by God in the oridnary course of life I have to work hard to survive, prosper, do better.

Notwithstanding the fact that there are too many mentions about God's help as a father figure, or some tales of miracles, but in reality it never happens.

Despite everything I do say from a logic or syllologic standpoint, or through empirical evidences I have a tinge of feeling, a very deep rooted feeling that God or some source do exists that controls everything, including the law of nature.

Blaze, that is an honest, profound, and reflective statement. Probably 90% of what you state in there has been my experience as well.

[hellsapoppin]

~~ parable of two angels ~~

I do not recall reading that in the Bible --- hint: while it is a good story, angels are all male.

[mayneverhave]

The problem I've always had is:

If God is a perfect being/entity, he would be without desire or need. Does God's desire for his creations to pray contradict the notion that he is perfect?

[Aluno49]

Almost all of the thread seems to be aimed primarily at the nature of God, with must less tosay about the nature of prayer. Perhaps this is inevitable: if one does not have a concept of God, then what could prayer mean? And vice versa: would our concepts of prayer make sense if the people to whom we were speaking did not understand how we meant "God"?

The simplest approach is to anthropomorphize God, than analogize prayer to human conversation, perhaps as one might have with a parent or civil authority. But if one takes a much more mystical view of God - as "energy" or "love or "that to which we long to be united", then it is much harder to suppose what prayer might be. If one were an atheist, then prayer perhaps sounds like soemthing between a waste of time and a psychological aberration.

I'm not sure we need to have a specific, or even a firm view of God to understand and practice prayer. It seems tome that prayer can and does occur in many forms, each possible and hopefully useful in some monents of our lives. If I wish to pray for/about the health of a friend, it seems natural to view that as a specific conversation, either one I actually have or one that I can imagine having if I can not be there to provide support. "He prayeth well who loveth well..." Coleridge.

But I also can pray through ordinary acts of daily contemplation: viewing the majesty of God's good day; celebrating good news form family and friends; reacting with anger at violence or deprivation of rights. The power of such contemplation as prayer comes in the connection between the thought and the deed, as a call to action and personal responsibility (to defend the world, to love my neighbors etc.).

And it also - this is not to be despised even in our modern world - can be the oral traditions of our community's prayers and songs, where we join in solidarity with others, those with us and those who have gone before, to share beautiful language given us by others. I am always reduced to tears when I hear the Navy Hymn, "... Oh hear us as we cry to Thee/ For those in peril on the sea", but I do the best I can to sing through the tears and the catch in my throat, to honor those for whom it was written and is sung.

So, although we may -probably will -struggle all our lives to find a meaning for God (postive or, perhaps, negative), I hope we all can make time for prayer.

Aluno

[Jeb0092]

Prayer/Meditation, gives people an artificial sense of being connected to something. It is similar to dreaming while you sleep. If you close your eyes and cut off sensory information to your brain, then your reasoning right-brain shuts off and your free thinking left-brain takes control. The left brain allows for deep thoughts and dreams, while providing the feeling of being one with something, i.e. the universe, God, etc. The ultimate realization of prayer/meditation is that you are one with everything in the universe, including God.

[blazeofglory]

The problem I've always had is:

If God is a perfect being/entity, he would be without desire or need. Does God's desire for his creations to pray contradict the notion that he is perfect?

Exactly he desires, and since he desires there is nothing that gives him a distinction as something supreme as a matter of fact.

God is something, an entity that is created out of imagination. Maybe there is some power, a source of everything, a great resoirvoir of consciousness or energy that guides everything. And if he or she exists he has nothing to do with prayer, and he is above and over desire.

God is wrongly construed as a being that undergo all attributes. God gets angry, happy, and indeed these are human attributes and never god's.

God is beyond, if he really does exist, beyond the domain of our knowledge Our kARMA must blaze the way to Him, not the prayer we do wastefully.

[Bethany_Argyros]

~~parable of two angels~~

(i know, im too lazy to create a difference between them, so to differenciate i made one female and one male.)

((also it depends on the branch of christianity, in my history with the church they tend to be androgynous, though there are those like Gabriel, Raphael, and Michael who are all male, though it is never expressly said that they are all male, theres just no real mention of a female angel))

(((i dont think it was in the bible, though i deffinately heard it in mass. church. worship. whatever you wanna call it. thats where i heard it. from a priest. Father Dan was his name, wonderful man... recently retired... i need to sleep)))

((((i dont know why i put that last bit in. or this bit. im going to sleep now.))))

[hellsapoppin]

~~ prayer ~~

The key to prayer in the Bible is that these prayers are going to be answered. In the New Testament Jesus unconditionally guaranteed that if anyone was to ask via prayer for answers such as healings and miracles, one need only ask in his name and it would be answered.

As I mentioned on another thread, biblical laws are supposed to be immutable: what happens there is supposed to be happening today. Yet, where are the healings and miracles? Why aren't dead people being raised? why are masses of people being fed with but one basket of food? why wasn't the flood disaster in New Orleans stopped when stormy seas were calmed in the Bible?

These things are supposed to take place. After all, the Bible is not intended as some kind of morality tale. It is intended to be an instruction manual. Conformance with its teachings are guaranteed to result in constructive actions. Without these results, the Bible is nothing more than a collection of myths. Church attendance is getting lower every year because that book is now clearly a collection of fairy tales with no relevance to a modern and enlightened society.

Lastly, the Bible indicates that you are to prove me now herewith. This means that you are not supposed to argue the book's merits with anyone. Instead, you are to prove that it is accurate by manifestly creating healings and miracles.

[Mona ..]

actually, I'm a muslim & pray 5 times everyday & I feel so pleased .

and we all know that God want us to pray or worship . God create us to worship & when we do it very well , we will enter the paradise because God promise us that .

[dzebra]

If God is a perfect being/entity, he would be without desire or need. Does God's desire for his creations to pray contradict the notion that he is perfect?

I don't see how one must lack desire in order to be perfect. But, I do see how the lack of need would be required for perfection, and I think God has no needs.

[Aluno49]

Hi hellsapoppin,

"...that book is now clearly a collection of fairy tales with no relevance to a modern and enlightened society."

With all respect, arguing that the words of Scripture must be literally true as interpreted through translations and then declaring them pointless when they are not is very much of a strawman argument. We are npt delaing with a syllogism here, but even if we were, one of your premises is certainly doubtful, in fact wrong. Whereas there are some believers who hold to the literal truth of all words and phrases, there are many who do not.

We would never think that the story of the Grand Inquisitor or Quixote had to be literally true in order to find them relevant to a "modern, enlightened society". It's perfectly fair that you, after study and thought, find the Judeo-Christian scripture to be irrelevant to your life, but there are hundreds of passgaes, perhaps thousands that I and others find entirely relevant:

"What does the Lord require of you but to seek justice, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly in the presence of your God." [Micah, 6, 8]

for example.

Aluno

[NikolaiI]

Well, if we introduce science into it, then there are serious and incredible benefits of prayer, or meditation.

Recently I read in The Brothers Karamazov, under Talks and Homilies of Father Zosima, the following thought, that "prayer is education." Zosima says that if you pray unreservedly (perhaps not the word he used) then there will always be a flash new feeling in it. This is something I've recently learned, prayer as illuminating, as well as calming, soothing, healing, refreshing, all of these things apply to it. Prayer is also necessary to revelation, I believe.

[Aluno49]

Dear Mona,

Thanks for stepping up and sharing insights from a tradition with which few of us have any direct experience.

There are contemplatives in many traditions who would agree with you entirley on the power of prayer in their lives, although their beliefs as to "reward" and even an afterlife woudl differ greatly (but respectfully).

Aluno

[hellsapoppin]

``"What does the Lord require of you but to seek justice, and to love mercy``


That is just logic and common sense -- you do not need a Bible to tell you that this is what people should do.

I am going to send you a PM to illustrate what I mean.

[Aluno49]

Whether or not it is "common sense" [a very problematic phrase, in my experience], it remains true that it is a scriptural admonition in my tradition, one that has guided Jews and Christians for millenia. We both agree that it is good advice, so why would anyone care from where I draw the admonition, so long as I behave accordingto its principles?

But you quote it out of its context: The verse begins "What does the Lord require, but that you should ..." You may (I don't really know) very well find it entirely comfortable to live your life without recourse to the notion of God, much less one who addresses us personally. That's just fine:your life is yours. I find it useful, and so the prefatory words have meaning to me, and also impart context to the ethical instruction that otherwise would not be there. Again, if I find that context useful in my ethical and moral life, should that not be adequate for me? i do not, by any means, insist that anyone else agree with me.

Aluno

[blazeofglory]

actually, I'm a muslim & pray 5 times everyday & I feel so pleased .

and we all know that God want us to pray or worship . God create us to worship & when we do it very well , we will enter the paradise because God promise us that .



I esteem your faith, and I do not to tresspass your domain, for I am not alwayas sure about what I philosphize. I am indeed in an endless eddy of confusion.

I am to be honest to you is very skeptical by nature even if I haved deep down some faith./

My objjective is here not to argue for any particualr sets of opinions but hust to be open to all.

Again I want to iterate that I value your faith and am very excited to read your opinion.

[hellsapoppin]

``if I find that context useful in my ethical and moral life, should that not be adequate for me?

i do not, by any means, insist that anyone else agree with me.``


That, precisely, is the key --- whatever is right for you is perfectly OK. The problem is when religionists defy logic and common sense by imposing that ''right'' or interpretation upon everyone else.

As I mentioned before, Alan Watts accurately stated that more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. The reason being that many have given themselves the 'right' to do so because of a misinterpretation of biblical teaching. And that, more than anything else, is a profanation upon that book.

[blazeofglory]

Indeed Faith is a domain that must be totally kept private to oneself and when we try to impose ours on others it poses problems and at times even threats too.

Of course faith is what we call a domain that is totally rooted in kind of imagination.

Having said so I may hurt someone's sentiments, but this is simply my arguments and nothing else. If you like you can critique me.

As freedom exists respecting argumnets. Here the point is faith is a domain that exerts much pressure on us at times and stirs kind of commotion and at the same times casue disputes.

I do not want to take names here and in doing so I may encraoch the territory of others' faith. The fact is history endorses the fact that Faith stirred lots of commotions.

Yet I respect your faith because I respect you.

This is totally an objective and impersonal view.

Forgive if I trespassed.

[NikolaiI]

That, precisely, is the key --- whatever is right for you is perfectly OK. The problem is when religionists defy logic and common sense by imposing that ''right'' or interpretation upon everyone else.

As I mentioned before, Alan Watts accurately stated that more people have been killed in the name of the Bible than for any other reason in history. The reason being that many have given themselves the 'right' to do so because of a misinterpretation of biblical teaching. And that, more than anything else, is a profanation upon that book.

Supposedly, the Biblical Scripture is a revealed book, by revelation-- to me it is quite plainly just words on a page. I do not believe it is anything; that is, I don't have an asserting belief on it, one way or the other; to keep an open mind. I do believe in revelation; but I don't believe that humans, even in their best of revelations, are equal to the Supreme word of god. Revelation by its nature always overturns, revelation is a process, and there is no final reaching of God. God speaks to us only in revelation; that is, only mysteriously-- this is my view; he also speaks to us through the saints; like Dostoevsky...and in them are the highest ideas extant. So while this is good-- I will read the words of this wonderful, prophetic saint, and be educated as to the sublime worlds, about love, truth, revelation; while even better is the fact that I possess the same abilities as Dostoevsky, though obviously not equivalent on all levels, that is, I breathe, I reflect, I pray, and in prayer I'm educated, and, as he says, there is "always a flash of new feeling, and new thought," etc... in this do I know that prayer and yoga are the path to God, and they are education, and the path of revelation-- all of this is true, and by this do I reach my highest potential-- and humbly do I accept the truth given to me, with no arrogance or ego but only awe and gratitude and acceptance, and because of this I know to value the work of other humans-- regardless of time-- as to be the same thing as what I create-- the work of a human-- though I am yet striving to be aware of hindrancing preconceptions, which always lead to fallacy, so finally, that the Bible I shall not pass judgment on...I do not know. In fact...I do believe...I can't say why...

[blazeofglory]

Nikolai, your ideas are revealing, and of course you do not seem to be hooked to sets of theories. Subscribing to sets of theories is indeed to delimit our potentials for something. Man is unquestionably endowed with limitless energies. Whether we are theishts or atheists this is well accepted. you come across with ideas that are really rich and of course they enrich others' too.

All I beleive in unfolding ourselves. Through this forum I want to expose myslef, or want to put my inside out. I never like to be a hypocryte.

At times I want to write even expressing things that crop up in my subconscious mind. That are fragmnets and I want to presnt the way they are, unpolished in point of fact. Yet I fear we are not prepared to that extent, for at that level we have to write some of the gloomiest and most barbaric thought primitives live with in point of fact.

That is why when I write about God or Godliness I put across ideas that are very honest, the way they pop up, unpolished and unchanged.

[NikolaiI]

My mother, whom even people on here have called wise, as I've mentioned her, says or has said, "I don't question God." Not in those words exactly, rather-- "I don't question why God does what he does." Now this may be vulnerable to attack, but who would seek to do this? I do not wish conflict with anyone. So this attitude of hers also speaks in the question "Does God want us to pray?" God is unimaginable. I think, therefore, that what God wants is also unimaginable. I've already described my view of prayer on this thread, so I won't repeat myself. Lately my view of prayer has been more directed to two things; education or revelation, and transcendental consciousness. Now, I am, of course, aware, of the very common and expressed danger-- danger to integrity or truth, it may be-- of a person taking their own experience to be universal. Supposedly, as I've heard, this is accused of Schopenhaur. However, I'm convinced more strongly of a universality of truth. For some odd reason, I think we're more similar than different, or at least, that there are certain reasons to think that transcendence or philosophy or truth would be universal. Prayer, meditation, and revelation universal? It is my idea. Buddhist meditation focuses on the breath. It also focuses on sitting still in a upright posture, but if we leave this; there is still the breath. Everyone breathes. Everyone has a mind. We can't say that everyone has eyes, or everyone has legs or arms. To say that everyone has a mind is almost challengeable.

Anyway-- that ended pointlessly, and I hope it didn't leave any reader too unsatisfied...I do apologize. I just have a couple other thoughts about the topic, so I'll come back to it. Christian and Hindu religion both have somewhat similar ideas of our situation in relation to the godhead. That word, godhead, is not only used in Hindu religion, but even in some Christian perspective as well, such as Jaspers. My point here is that Christians view God as the creator, and the source of being. The Hindu view is very complicated, and of course it is difficult to even say something like "Hindu view," because there isn't one accepted theory. I may be wrong in this.

So anyway Eastern religions are very much oriented towards the philosophy that says that we are bewildered by phenomena, or short-sighted. The ideas of Maya and Samsara. The Christian religion doesn't talk about this so much, but it does have a similar view of the God-human relationship. Plato isn't the source here, but also had his ideas of More Real Being, or More True Being; and god as the source of being and thought. Evidently Plato was influenced by the Vedas. I first, recently, became convinced as a believer of God-- purely as the source, as 'infinite,' as the definition Pascal makes, convinced by "reason," and this is all I believed, but now I am open to whatever may be the truth.

"Prayer as education."-- this from Zosima, from Dostoevsky. Coming upon this now I view Dostoevsky as a saint and a genius. Zosima advises simple, genuine, open-hearted prayer to the Lord, similar to the non-fictional Thomas Merton. Ask the Lord to have mercy, upon everyone, is what Zosima says. It is sort of a non-aphorism. He doesn't explain it further.

So my ideas are somewhat abnormal. I believe that all of this is literally true. I wrote elsewhere about this. That phenomena of space and time and division are literally illusion, and not just metaphorically. We are bewildered into thinking we roam, when in truth there is no going or staying-- (almost a direct quote from Seng Ts'an) and I believe that what is actually true is both odd, and beyond our imagining. We see it's true but we might completely miss it or if we notice it, we disregard it. Yet we should believe its truth to be consistent-- until we see the truth and after, if we don't recognize it for the glorious thing it is, we are constantly in conflict with the world-- that it is odd, unfair, or insane. But we have faith and trust in this insanity, and so the truth is what we think of as odd, but in fact it is logical. This is my opinion.

And-- I believe this, too; but I mean to be speaking of a different subject than "truth," I always mean to drop what's been said before...I believe that we don't really understand, for whatever reason...what I mean is...I've intellectually understood that there is no coming or going, but this hasn't so far bridged the gap between matter and consciousness. But by reason I am become aware of this idea; and the mysterious, odd, 'things' that I see, which I am convinced are truth as clearly as if I've seen them by the light of the day, but which, nonetheless, I can't communicate in words-- as they are, quite simply, some small attribute of 'breath,' or be inclusive, any attribute of myself at all-- this good awareness of myself, these are interesting to me; but what they help me to see is that progress made in the direction of this transcendence is worthwhile and beneficial. All of this is sort of part of a universal, joyous cosmology I am gradually becoming aware of. Awakening or enlightenment is now such a gentle thing for me. There are so many things which help-- the combination of Hinduism and "The Heart Sutra" is a powerful one, indeed. My life becomes purified, indeed, and without love, what would there be of life? Love purifies my body, soul and mind. The Heart Sutra says there is no feeling, and no feeler; among other things. That Aryavalokitshevara saw the five buddha natures and saw them as empty. One of the deepest meditational experience I ever had was on this Heart Sutra, and I broke through several different directions, and "knew" myself, my buddha nature; it was glorious. Since then I've studied more of Hinduism and transcendental consciousness, and been developing the ideas...anyway...all I can truly say is that transcendental consciousness is something I wish to learn more about.

"Yoga is the path to the supreme." This is stated in the Gita. We can't fully attain the supreme, but we can attain various levels of progress towards the supreme, which in themselves are a sort of supreme in relation to the rest of our lives. I have some inkling of the unlimited energy of which you speak-- yea, there is unlimited energy as well as unlimited possibility (in spiritual freedom). "...And eventually we become sustained by an awareness of the world and ourselves..."

[blazeofglory]

Nikoli I, you have a good grasp on eastern philosphy, and it seems you are a devotee of Krishna.

I too was a great devotee of Lord Krishna and lateron in my life maybe I was too much obssessed with reasons and as such I could not hold deep faith.

It is written somewhere in the Shreemad Bhagabatam that the Gopis without even their knowlede or the fact that they knew little of scriptures were much closer to Lord Krishna.

The Shreemad Bhagabatam is a great holy book and when it comes to devotional songs or sacred texts I find it unbeateable in point of fact, for it is so deeply rooted in devotional matters one will be immersed in the ocean of Ananda.

Indeed very substantial part of my life was totally spent on the devotional path. That was a rare moment of my life. I felt so close to Krishna.

Now, I am to be honest, more towards reason than to faith, and indeed one needs little knowledge of philsophy and all that one needs is devotion
That is why the Gopis without any knowledge of sacred texts were very close to Krishna

[NikolaiI]

Thomas Merton and Father Zosima (a fictional character from a Dostoevsky novel, a monk) both say that the best thing is a simple prayer to ask God for mercy, upon ourselves and everyone in the world. This is very close in my mind to the Gita's instructions about pure devotion.

I am new to the Gita, and I may have had an opposite order of experiene from you. For me reason came before faith. I was convinced of God by reason, and philosophically, before I came convinced of him in feeling, although they were basically inseparable.

What I wanted to say on the other thread (Gibran) I forgot to. It is very difficult to explain. How do we become our true selves? We have to be aware of the movements of the soul, the hidden and sleeping soul. It is above us, yet it is possible (as you mentioned on the other thread) to encompass it. It's a beautiful thing when this happens and I've only experienced it fleetingly. It's something separate from Krishna consciousness, although my dim experience of Krishna consciousness gives me reason to believe it is so important.

I don't have the final word on this. I'm only becoming aware of it. But the best idea for me, that I can think of, is about... knowing, and then being conscious based on this knowledge... or-- bear with me, I know I'm not expressing it well!--... if we know A, B, and C, then we can grasp D intuitively and know it to be true, and then we can go on to E without trepidation. The fact that A, B, and C, we cannot express in words, does not make it more difficult, it only makes it more subtle. It's only difficult if we've never come across things of wisdom, or if we've never had the good fortune to become aware of certain zen-like truths, such as the resolution of paradox. What I've experienced of late is the dissolving of the world into light, in prayer and Krishna consciousness, and other practices. Life without this is complete misery, because I cannot rid myself of the awareness of this. In the Gita it's written that the future is assured bright. This is one step along the path, which we can only grasp by practicing yoga, progress along the supreme. It's not something we can encapsulate by mental speculation, but only by the grace of God.

[crystalmoonshin]

First let us define what a prayer is. Personally, a prayer for me is somewhat like a private conversation between God and me. It is somewhat like a meditation too coz I tend to reflect on my actions and the consequences thereafter. It lets me see my deeper self, thus I think it is one of the most important activities in my daily life.

I guess it just varies from one person to another. Prayers can be for asking for forgiveness, thus it lessens the presence of guilt in our minds and lets us become instantly reborn (though not wholly) as an individual. It also serves as an outlet for humans to direct their unwanted thoughts like fear, anger and loneliness to something invisible but is present, in short, to God.

One can also offer thanks when praying especially when one feels like he or she is super blessed. And it turns those negative thoughts into something positive.

The thing is, prayers help us improve ourselves, through internal reflections and such.

[blazeofglory]

Through prayer we meet in the air, for prayer is something that connects us with the maker of us; for it is a thread that strings His own organs, or flowers together.

It sublimates us and it refines our minds and of course, it keeps us close to our orgin.

Indeed all of us are constantly seeking all the time our source. Of course through prayer we will be there.

Prayer is not a physical activity, and it is not a thing of words, notwithstanding the fact that we have come to know it through words or scriptures as a matter of fact.