Women & Hijab? [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

mercy_mankind

01-07-2008, 06:49 PM

First of all , What is Hijab??

hijab is

, loose clothing topped by a type of scarf worn around the head and under the chin.

History of the Veil (Hijab)

What constitutes modest clothing has changed over time. Like most customs, what women wear has reflected the practices of a region and the social position of the wearer. The veil itself predates Islam by many centuries. In the Near East, Assyrian kings first introduced both the seclusion of women in the royal harem and the veil. Prostitutes and slaves, however, were told not to veil, and were slashed if they disobeyed this law.

Beyond the Near East, the practice of hiding one's face and largely living in seclusion appeared in classical Greece, in the Byzantine Christian world, in Persia, and in India among upper caste Rajput women.

The Islamic Hijab(Veil)[/B]

The Quran, the Muslim's holy scripture, clearly enjoins Muslim men and women to dress and behave modestly. Muslim women are specifically instructed to cover their heads when in the presence of non-mahrem (potentially marriageable) men:

Surah Al-Nur (the Light) (24:31) in the Quran states: "They (the believing women) should draw their head coverings over their bosoms...". . Surah Al-Ahzab (33:59) states: "O Prophet [PBUH] Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should put on their outer garments; that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested."
[B] The comment:
This is an effective rebuttal to the argument some Muslim women have against wearing Hijab, that by wearing it they will be recognized and will be attacked. Allah clearly wants Muslims to be recognized in whatever community they live in. Their lives lived as Muslims will get other people interested in them and that will be a way of spreading the message of Islam. People will approach them and ask them why they dress like that, why they are different. Their curiousity will automatically draw them towards Islam. Allah is the most supreme starategist of the universe. He blessed us with the message of Islam (Islam means peace and security and told us strategies to spread the message which only benefits us and not Allah. Allah is beyond all needs.
THE BENEFITS OF HIJAB (COVERING) FOR WOMEN

. For Muslim women, COVERING THE HEAD IS NOT THE SIGN OF DEGRADATION or oppression. It is a commandment from Allah, who is not male or female, and thus, would not discriminate against women, a segment of His creation.

. Rather, HEAD-COVERING IS A SIGN OF PURITY AND DIGNITY. It highlights the Muslim woman as a pure, chaste woman and sets her apart from the immoral behavior associated with women who dress immodestly.

. The HIJAB IS A SORT OF "SCREEN" BETWEEN THE CHASTE MUSLIM WOMAN AND THE EVIL THAT EXISTS IN THE WORLD. When a woman wears a hijab she is less likely to be harassed by men with lusty motives; SHE IS LESS LIKELY TO BE EXPLOITED FOR HER BEAUTY AND FEMINITY.

. The Hijab allows a woman to move about outside the confines of her home WITH HER ATTENTION ON THE TASKS SHE HAS SET OUT TO DO. The Muslim woman does not try to impress anyone but Allah when outside of her home. She is not concerned if men find her attractive, or if people are impressed because she has the latest fashions, or the newest hairstyle. She leaves her home as a SELF-CONFIDENT PART OF HUMAN RACE, not as a fashion-plate seeking stares and adoration in order to gain self-esteem.

. The hijab cuts down on competition among women. How many people in the West sacrifice financial savings and health in order to have plastic surgery - in a desperate attempt to meet up to an unrealistic standard of beauty. IN ISLAM, WOMEN ARE APPRECIATED FOR THEIR KNOWLEDGE, PIETY AND CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY. When women wear hijab one finds that the most beautiful women are not necessarily the most popular. Rather, a woman is assessed for her mind, and not just superficial physical traits.

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I want to know your opinions and to know what is your look about Hijab

What do you think of Hijab? And Why?
a) a symbol of liberation.
b)a symbol of repression.

--

copy and pasted from:

jannah.org/sisters/hijab_protect.html

--

crazefest456

01-07-2008, 07:18 PM

Well, Hijab can't be strictly defined as a symbol of liberation. I wear it solely because it's a command from God; a firm belief and trust is neccesary to go on about being steadfast in faith and the concerns of the world. Sure, it does liberate us (countless examples) but the primary reason that should be for one, is that it's something that God gave us a privelege of and that we have to take advantage of that.
Hijab is something sacred, too, and shouldn't be adorned by those sort of people who abuse it by misreperesenting themselves and misbehaving shrewdly...So, for women who want to wear hijab, it's a HUGE decision, and a commitment you must maintain...

Welcome Mercy!

Lote-Tree

01-08-2008, 05:28 AM

Muslim women are specifically instructed to cover their heads when in the presence of non-mahrem (potentially marriageable) men:

Why? Why so special about a women's head?

. For Muslim women, COVERING THE HEAD IS NOT THE SIGN OF DEGRADATION or oppression.

Why cover it in the first place? What is so special about a women's head?

. Rather, HEAD-COVERING IS A SIGN OF PURITY AND DIGNITY. It highlights the Muslim woman as a pure, chaste woman and sets her apart from the immoral behavior associated with women who dress immodestly.

That would be fine. But it assumes only women behaviour can be immoral and not a man's.

When a woman wears a hijab she is less likely to be harassed by men with lusty motives

It assumes that women have no such motives. It assumes women are not sexual. And millions of women around the world go around quite happily without being harrased. It is only a matter of education.

; SHE IS LESS LIKELY TO BE EXPLOITED FOR HER BEAUTY AND FEMINITY.

But putting women in a Niqab or even hijab is suppresing her individuality. I suggest educate both men and women to respect each other. And as the quran enjoins - modesty of behaviour towards each other.

The Hijab allows a woman to move about outside the confines of her home WITH HER ATTENTION ON THE TASKS SHE HAS SET OUT TO DO.

Billions of women around the world quite sucessfully does this without covering themselves up. Why should they have to hide themselves to do this?

She is not concerned if men find her attractive, or if people are impressed because she has the latest fashions, or the newest hairstyle. She leaves her home as a SELF-CONFIDENT PART OF HUMAN RACE, not as a fashion-plate seeking stares and adoration in order to gain self-esteem.

You assume women are not sexual creatures.

How many people in the West sacrifice financial savings and health in order to have plastic surgery - in a desperate attempt to meet up to an unrealistic standard of beauty.

This is has nothing to do with Hijab/Niqab.

IN ISLAM, WOMEN ARE APPRECIATED FOR THEIR KNOWLEDGE, PIETY AND CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY.

We should appreciate women as individuals with their own hopes, dreams and aspirations.

When women wear hijab one finds that the most beautiful women are not necessarily the most popular.

Humanity has always been fascinated with Beauty. It is healthy. It's not like smoking which will give you cancer :D

Rather, a woman is assessed for her mind, and not just superficial physical traits.

I want admire women for those "superficial traits" as well as their intelligence and most importantly for their individuality.

[B]What do you think of Hijab? And Why?

I don't think most westerners and rest of the world find a problem with Hijab -a scarf covering the head.

It's the Niqab they have issue with where the women's face is totally covered and she sees through a slit.

a) a symbol of liberation.

Niqab is a symbol of oppression. It's men's Total Mastery over women.

Most westerns don't have problem with the head coverings.

muhsin

01-08-2008, 05:59 AM

A very nice and vibrant post by mercy mankind! Allah bless. And keep it up!

hew2702

01-08-2008, 07:59 PM

mercy_mankind

01-09-2008, 11:04 AM

Well, Hijab can't be strictly defined as a symbol of liberation. I wear it solely because it's a command from God;

Asslamu Alikum, (Peace Be Upon You)
Actually you are right that Hijab is a command from Allah , but you have to be completely sure that Allah won't order you to do something brings you the damage, Look for, this to the Quranic verse in which it was hijab((in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested."))
, yes Because you are Muslim you should perform it without discussion but God Almighty explained to us why this veil?
May be apparent in the type of restriction, but Why? you'll find that is the fully freedom, Ok?
so Hijab give me more freedom, because I am not afraid of this or that
because this one knows that i'm muslim , and that one when he look at me , he will remember Allah , and never try to hurt me.
so this is the full liberation , that you do whatever you want to do without frightening.:)

you are welcome,crazefest :)
you are the third Muslim that I met here .

kilted exile

01-09-2008, 11:17 AM

Lote-Tree

01-09-2008, 11:42 AM

If it is worn out of personal choice it is a symbol of liberation.

If it's personal choice then everything is a liberation even drug taking!

motherhubbard

01-09-2008, 11:53 AM

Its not repression at all. It actually gives them more freedom of what to wear underneath their hijab. It is a modesty issue. They are protecting themselves from other men and saving what they look like for their husband and girlfriends.

While I am not Muslim, I do find this aspect honorable.

this is a strange statement. More freedom of what to wear underneath? It's hair. Is hair immodest? it's hard for me to think that hair sends muslim men into a frenzy of passion that women must protect themselves from men.

This is an effective rebuttal to the argument some Muslim women have against wearing Hijab, that by wearing it they will be recognized and will be attacked. I am so sorry that this happens.

Rather, HEAD-COVERING IS A SIGN OF PURITY AND DIGNITY. It highlights the Muslim woman as a pure, chaste woman and sets her apart from the immoral behavior associated with women who dress immodestly. .

Are women inherently immoral and therefore one must set herself apart while men are not? This part of the argument seems to insinuate that a woman must cover her head to be above the natural immorality of women but are men not just as immoral? It also places the standard of modesty with the hijab. There are many women who dress modestly and in a manner that is not to attract unwanted stairs from men. Is showing their hair equivalent to showing their breast?

Are shouldn’t Muslim men control themselves and not act on lust just because they have lust. The fact is that all men and women experience lust and desire, but doesn’t Islam place any constraint on the man. You say that those who do not cover are immoral and that women must protect themselves from men. Does this mean that the men, even Muslim men are immoral? What does the man do to be more moral? Is there an attitude that if a woman doesn’t cover her head she is asking for trouble and therefore if she is harmed by a man it is her own fault, and not the fault of the man who used no self control?

The Hijab allows a woman to move about outside the confines of her home WITH HER ATTENTION ON THE TASKS SHE HAS SET OUT TO DO. The Muslim woman does not try to impress anyone but Allah when outside of her home. She is not concerned if men find her attractive, or if people are impressed because she has the latest fashions, or the newest hairstyle. She leaves her home as a SELF-CONFIDENT PART OF HUMAN RACE, not as a fashion-plate seeking stares and adoration in order to gain self-esteem.

You know, most women are not like what we see on TV or in magazines. I’m sure there are some who are more concerned with getting attention for their looks, but these are very shallow women and not the majority. I have to doubt that covering the head would lessen this kind of woman’s superficiality. We are all part of the human race regardless of what is on or in our heads. I hate to dash the hopes of men, but most women are not walking about town hoping that men will find them attractive. We do our business regardless of appearance. It is nice to look one’s best, but that is a matter of self respect.

. The hijab cuts down on competition among women. How many people in the West sacrifice financial savings and health in order to have plastic surgery - in a desperate attempt to meet up to an unrealistic standard of beauty. IN ISLAM, WOMEN ARE APPRECIATED FOR THEIR KNOWLEDGE, PIETY AND CONTRIBUTION TO SOCIETY. When women wear hijab one finds that the most beautiful women are not necessarily the most popular. Rather, a woman is assessed for her mind, and not just superficial physical traits.

There are areas in the West that value youth and beauty above everything, but there are many more that value knowledge and contribution. We just don't produce TV shows or movies so the world doesn't see us.

What do you think of Hijab? And Why?
a) a symbol of liberation.
b)a symbol of repression.
I can see both sides of the argument but isn’t someone repressed when they are forced to do something and isn’t someone liberated when they choose to do something?

kilted exile

01-09-2008, 11:55 AM

If it's personal choice then everything is a liberation even drug taking!

Ok, the type of clothing someone chooses to wear is so far apart from drug taking as to make the entire reference pointless. But, yay for sensationalism, Fleet Street would be proud of you.

I have no issue with people personally choosing what they want to wear, some women may feel liberated wearing a hijab, some may feel liberated wearing a halter top, 6" skirt & high heels, others may feel liberated plastering their exposed breasts all over page 3. So long as it is an issue of personal choice, I cant see why anyone should have a problem with what a person decides to wear. It is not like drugs where the pursuit of drugs leads people to commit crimes to finance their habit or the proceeds from buying the drugs go to organised crime. It's clothing.

Lote-Tree

01-09-2008, 12:04 PM

But, yay for sensationalism, Fleet Street would be proud of you.

It was meant to amuse ;-)

I have no issue with people personally choosing what they want to wear,

Are you sure?

You don't want to see people wearing Nazi uniform to work do you?

Pendragon

01-09-2008, 02:17 PM

I have no problems with this mark of faith. There is a Muslim lady in town who always wears hers, and a delightful smile. The Spanish women used to wear a mantilla, which was I always thought, very becoming. The Mennonite women wear a small white lace cap over their long hair drawn up into a bun. Amish also do likewise. The Puritan Woman's white cap was part of her attire and looked nice. The Jewish Women wore cloths over their hair. Many Christian American women wear hats to church, and it used to be almost vital. In my own belief, women do not cut their hair and my mother's and sister's is long enough to sit on. My wife has brittle hair, but hers is below her waist. My daughter's is long enough to sit on, and though she no longer believes, she is proud of that hair!

What you believe sacred, that do ye for God.

God Bless

Pen

mercy_mankind

01-09-2008, 05:39 PM

Why? Why so special about a women's head?

Why cover it in the first place? What is so special about a women's head?

In The name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful

((that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested." ))

This is what I am talking about, we must first know that the hijab is a command from (Allah) God, we must know also that the meaning of the word ""Islam"": is a full surrender of (Allah's) God's commands and forbidding, and when Allah command women to wear the hijab .They must obey it if they really know and believe in the meaning of the word ""Islam""
, But God Almighty explained to us why women wear the hijab, and the explanation is very clear.

. I suggest educate both men and women to respect each other. And as the quran enjoins - modesty of behaviour towards each other.

Yes, it's what the Quran do , teaching men and women how to respect each other alike.
An-Nur , 30.
((Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do. ))
If you believe that the Quran orders only women to wear the veil and
the men have the right to do every thing ,I'll say to you that is incorrect because the Quran also command MEN, regardless sight and not to consider women and respected.

Billions of women around the world quite sucessfully does this without covering themselves up. Why should they have to hide themselves to do this?

And there are also alot of Muslim Women wearing the Hijab and they are sucessful,
Note: that is not hiding , It's a way of Protection , not for women but for the World.

We should appreciate women as individuals with their own hopes, dreams and aspirations.

So why don't you want to act with what you're saying?!
we also "Muslim Women" have dreams , hopes , aspirations , and we want to acheive them , and we will , Inshaa' Allah.

Niqab is a symbol of oppression. It's men's Total Mastery over women.

Most westerns don't have problem with the head coverings.

Yes , but i'm not talking about Niqab ( Niqab also a symbol of liberation)

about Hijab your opinion is so clear , but i think that you are not from those westerns that don't have a problem with Hijab. Because I could see your PROBLEM CLearly ,
Thank you for sharing.

A very nice and vibrant post by mercy mankind! Allah bless. And keep it up!

Asslamu Alikum (Peace Be Upon You)
JAK brother Muhsin for sharing , I hope to read your opinion .
May Allah bless you .

Its not repression at all. It actually gives them more freedom of what to wear underneath their hijab. It is a modesty issue. They are protecting themselves from other men and saving what they look like for their husband and girlfriends.

While I am not Muslim, I do find this aspect honorable.

Actually I'm very happy to speak with someone like you , I thought that this situations only can be found in stories and plays , your words made me remember "The Play Under Cover ", and the American girl with her issue to solidary with Muslim Women ,
Thank you ,

mercy_mankind

01-09-2008, 05:54 PM

Sorry about the rest , I couldn't replay nowadays because of my exams ,
I'll replay later , Thanks For all of you.

Lote-Tree

01-09-2008, 06:00 PM

Note: that is not hiding , It's a way of Protection , not for women but for the World.[/COLOR]

I am sorry protection from what? What is this protection for the world?

So why don't you want to act with what you're saying?!

I am. That is why I never wish to see women in a niqab. I want to see them as human beings walking the earth and not some black shadows to be hidden. I want to see their smile, their sadness, their happiness, their joy, their doubts and their achievements as individuals.

Yes , but i'm not talking about Niqab

Yes. I know. I have made that distinction.

(Niqab also a symbol of liberation)

If liberation to you means hiding in a dark cloak then it is. But there are far more exalted view of liberation and it never means hiding yourself from the world. But standing up as an individual to be respected as individual.

about Hijab your opinion is so clear,

You asked for it. And I have given it to you.

but i think that you are not from those westerns that don't have a problem with Hijab.

Westerners don't have a problem with Hijab as in the Headscarf. But it is niqab that is problematic because it takes away an individuals identity.

Because I could see your PROBLEM CLearly

You asked for an opinion. And I have given it to you.

There is no need to take personally.

Go in peace.

Salaam, Shantih and Peace.
Regards,
Lote.

crazefest456

01-09-2008, 06:43 PM

Asslamu Alikum, (Peace Be Upon You)
Actually you are right that Hijab is a command from Allah , but you have to be completely sure that Allah won't order you to do something brings you the damage, Look for, this to the Quranic verse in which it was hijab((in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested."))
, yes Because you are Muslim you should perform it without discussion but God Almighty explained to us why this veil?
May be apparent in the type of restriction, but Why? you'll find that is the fully freedom, Ok?
so Hijab give me more freedom, because I am not afraid of this or that
because this one knows that i'm muslim , and that one when he look at me , he will remember Allah , and never try to hurt me.
so this is the full liberation , that you do whatever you want to do without frightening.:)

you are welcome,crazefest :)
you are the third Muslim that I met here .

Actually, I agree whole heartedly about hijab being a symbol of liberation. But muslims nowadays tend to forget the true essence of things and instead delve into "common day" explanations that fit into the cookie-cutter views of today. I feel that muslim ideology should be consistent throughout any era as is the Quran. That's all I wanted to point out..
:D There are alot more muslims here....

mercy_mankind

01-10-2008, 05:07 AM

If it is worn out of personal choice it is a symbol of liberation. If it is imposed by cultural, social or political ideology it is a symbol of oppresion.

I am wondering if there is any extra addition to the verses from the koran in the OP which account for the full covering, from reading it it would suggest that only a head scarf would be required. Where did the ideology change to a full head to toe covering?

You know , you are a human , so you have the right of choice , every thing in your life.
but when you choose to be Muslim you have to do with that choice , so there is not oppression , because that is Originaly your choice ,
about the extra addition , that require woman to wear a veil , but there are some steps also because Hijab is not a piece of cloth only , Hijab means Morals , Purity , Respectance , so when you wear Hijab you have to be good in every thing you'll do.
but about the full head covering to toe , is important , i want to say that when you cover the head , it is also a must to cover the whole body ,
because if you didn't ,you would be so funny .

If it's personal choice then everything is a liberation even drug taking!

Sorry , What are you saying ?
There is a great difference between drugs and Hijab , Drugs means damage
but Hijab is a command From God and protection from that damage.

this is a strange statement. More freedom of what to wear underneath? It's hair. Is hair immodest? it's hard for me to think that hair sends muslim men into a frenzy of passion that women must protect themselves from men.

I am so sorry that this happens.

Are women inherently immoral and therefore one must set herself apart while men are not? This part of the argument seems to insinuate that a woman must cover her head to be above the natural immorality of women but are men not just as immoral? It also places the standard of modesty with the hijab. There are many women who dress modestly and in a manner that is not to attract unwanted stairs from men. Is showing their hair equivalent to showing their breast?

No, women are not immoral , but just they have to take care ,
I don't know why you insist on saying that women are immoral by their nature! , that is not true
but i said that this Hijab will make them so moral than , and will give them much respect .
She has to do her rights , and men also have to do theirs ,
as i said above

An-Nur , 30.
((Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do. ))

so Quran also tell men to respect women and don't look at them ,

Are shouldn’t Muslim men control themselves and not act on lust just because they have lust. The fact is that all men and women experience lust and desire, but doesn’t Islam place any constraint on the man. You say that those who do not cover are immoral and that women must protect themselves from men. Does this mean that the men, even Muslim men are immoral? What does the man do to be more moral? Is there an attitude that if a woman doesn’t cover her head she is asking for trouble and therefore if she is harmed by a man it is her own fault, and not the fault of the man who used no self control?

Muslim men and non Muslim men will never control themselves every time , if they do handred times , they won't be able to resist ,
so both of them , man and women should take care,

I never said that men or women do not have the morality, but this there is always the feelings between men and women, but must be these feelings in a proper framework away from the ethical problems must be guided in its right place

You know, most women are not like what we see on TV or in magazines. I’m sure there are some who are more concerned with getting attention for their looks, but these are very shallow women and not the majority. I have to doubt that covering the head would lessen this kind of woman’s superficiality. We are all part of the human race regardless of what is on or in our heads. I hate to dash the hopes of men, but most women are not walking about town hoping that men will find them attractive. We do our business regardless of appearance. It is nice to look one’s best, but that is a matter of self respect.

I'm not speaking for sure about women who sell themselves in a cheap price,
but about women who really want to protect herself

((that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested." ))

I can see both sides of the argument but isn’t someone repressed when they are forced to do something and isn’t someone liberated when they choose to do something?

So what is your definition on liberation ,
Is it to do every thing you want to do?
no, that is wrong , liberation is to do what will benefit you without any threatens , and we won't find more suitable that God Commands but He Almighty created us and He knows what is suitable for us .

I have no problems with this mark of faith. There is a Muslim lady in town who always wears hers, and a delightful smile. The Spanish women used to wear a mantilla, which was I always thought, very becoming. The Mennonite women wear a small white lace cap over their long hair drawn up into a bun. Amish also do likewise. The Puritan Woman's white cap was part of her attire and looked nice. The Jewish Women wore cloths over their hair. Many Christian American women wear hats to church, and it used to be almost vital. In my own belief, women do not cut their hair and my mother's and sister's is long enough to sit on. My wife has brittle hair, but hers is below her waist. My daughter's is long enough to sit on, and though she no longer believes, she is proud of that hair!

What you believe sacred, that do ye for God.

God Bless

Pen

Thank you , That is why , i want to say that not Muslims only did that , and Hijab was found before Islam religion , so why only the fight with Muslim Women !!

muhsin

01-10-2008, 05:54 AM

Mercy mankind, you are absolutely doing great here. Wish I had guts and time to do something like this. Allah bless and support you, amin.

Muhsin

mercy_mankind

01-10-2008, 06:19 AM

I am sorry protection from what? What is this protection for the world?

I think you heard about the many incidents of rape, and also hear about homosexuality, and so much etc.., because the parties that men and women have no manners, something else is women who impose respect on the man , it is also to make it not respected them, so women have a great role on the subject, that does not mean that men are not charged any error, they are also responsible for these things.

I am. That is why I never wish to see women in a niqab. I want to see them as human beings walking the earth and not some black shadows to be hidden. I want to see their smile, their sadness, their happiness, their joy, their doubts and their achievements as individuals.

Sorry, you mean that women in Niqab are not a human beings?
so they are , what?
when you see their smile and sadness , what will you do for them after that?!
your look won't help them , but that will help you.

If liberation to you means hiding in a dark cloak then it is. But there are far more exalted view of liberation and it never means hiding yourself from the world. But standing up as an individual to be respected as individual.

you insist on repeating that word "hidung" , okay , we didn't wear a black clothes , we wear brightful ones , but with our Hijab , and Niqab is considered to be the high form of liberation , because Niqab is not a must , or a command , and women do that with themselves .

Westerners don't have a problem with Hijab as in the Headscarf. But it is niqab that is problematic because it takes away an individuals identity.
women who wear Niqab love that , so why you have a problem ?

You asked for an opinion. And I have given it to you.

There is no need to take personally.

Yes that is not strange , I know that you have that clue on Hijab , that is why we are discussing the matter.
thank you,

Actually, I agree whole heartedly about hijab being a symbol of liberation. But muslims nowadays tend to forget the true essence of things and instead delve into "common day" explanations that fit into the cookie-cutter views of today. I feel that muslim ideology should be consistent throughout any era as is the Quran. That's all I wanted to point out..
:D There are alot more muslims here....
Asslamu Alikum,
That is right , Muslims have to be united more than this , but you know every one has a different mind , and that different considered to be a MERCY for all of us , so we have to coexist with each other,
Thanks Crazefest ,
I hope to know that alot more muslims :)

Mercy mankind, you are absolutely doing great here. Wish I had guts and time to do something like this. Allah bless and support you, amin.

Muhsin

Peace be upon you
Thank you brother , I'm doing nothing ,
I wish too that you could be here instead of me , because of my exams , If you could for sure.

Lote-Tree

01-10-2008, 06:48 AM

I think you heard about the many incidents of rape,...

Hijab is Protection Against Rape?

This has not stopped Rape happening in countries were women are forced to wear the Niqab - has it?

Rape happens regardles of this because Rape is usually about man's Power over a women. His subjugation of a women.

But if you follow this argument that Niqab is a Protection against Rape.

Then Black People should wear Niqab as a Protection Against Racism?

Manchester United Fans should wear Niqab as a Protection Against Celtic Fans?

Can you see how absurd that line of argument can be? Humanity going about covered to Protect themselves?

and also hear about homosexuality,

Are you saing Homosexuality is caused by Women not wearing Hijab and Niqab?

so women have a great role on the subject, that does not mean that men are not charged any error, they are also responsible for these things.

I don't see how men are responsible for anything here. They get away scot free. It is the women that needs to cover herself in fear of being raped. It also insults all men - because it makes all men potential rapists. And any decent man would resent that.

Sorry, you mean that women in Niqab are not a human beings?

How would I know. They could be men behind the niqab. How would I know? Our face is very important part of our identity.

so they are , what?

They have become unidentified blobs.

when you see their smile and sadness , what will you do for them after that?!

I will join in their smiles. I will enquire why are they sad. Have they lost someone close. Are they ill etc. There was a women on the bus to work and she was terribly agigated. I asked her what happened and she said she lost her purse. When we finally found the purse she gave a wonderful smile. She said the only important thing in the purse was a photo of her husband and the key to her house.

your look won't help them , but that will help you.

Yes. When see my women work colleagues distress I will ask them why and can I help etc...

you insist on repeating that word "hidung"

But it is hiding isn't it? You are viewing the world through a slit in your Niqab. You are saying to the world I am hiding from you.

women who wear Niqab love that , so why you have a problem ?

Because it takes away an individuals identity.

Edit: PS don't take anything personally - we are only debating the ideology of the hijab and niqab.

motherhubbard

01-10-2008, 10:23 AM

No, women are not immoral , but just they have to take care ,
I don't know why you insist on saying that women are immoral by their nature! , that is not true
but i said that this Hijab will make them so moral than , and will give them much respect .
She has to do her rights , and men also have to do theirs ,
as i said above

I was only addressing your reference to the immoral nature of women in the OP. Doesn't morality come from love of god and self respect? I fail to see how wearing the Hijab will change what is inside, but merely give the impression of what should be inside. They should be respected as humans and should not have to live in fear one way or the other.

so Quran also tell men to respect women and don't look at them ,

Is looking at a woman disrespectful? Is it disrespectful to look at a man?

Muslim men and non Muslim men will never control themselves every time , if they do handred times , they won't be able to resist ,
so both of them , man and women should take care,

There is often a this crazy idea that men rape women because they are so overrun with sexual desire and passion and lust for a lovely woman that they simply must take her. The woman drove him to this lust with her appearance and so it is her fault, not his. Absurd. The fact is that most rapist do not even ejaculate. And I would love for someone to explain the strong sexual appeal how a bewildered woman who is begging and crying and calling out to God to save her. And very often women have been beaten prior to the rape so you can add blood to the tears. Rape is simply about a mans power, not a woman’s sexuality. How will Hijab prevent this kind of man from harming a woman? Additionally, what punishment does the man receive for this crime? Is the woman punished for being the victim?

[COLOR="darkred"]I'm not speaking for sure about women who sell themselves in a cheap price,
but about women who really want to protect herself

((that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested." ))

Are you saying that women who wear Hijab are never raped?

So what is your definition on liberation ,
Is it to do every thing you want to do?
no, that is wrong , liberation is to do what will benefit you without any threatens , and we won't find more suitable that God Commands but He Almighty created us and He knows what is suitable for us .

A agree that God knows what is best for us, 100% and I'm not saying that to be liberated we must be able to do whatever we choose. but we should be able to choose to obey God. Will it please God for one to obey not out of love, but because they are forced to by the law of man?

Mercy mankind, you are absolutely doing great here. Wish I had guts and time to do something like this. Allah bless and support you, amin.

Muhsin

I want to agree with Mushin. You are doing great and it does take guts. I appreciate your response to my questions and am not trying to be disrespectful.

Nightshade

01-10-2008, 11:35 AM

I think you need a third option on that pole, that is neither, I mean because it isnt really, it can be held as a symbol of one or the other but it is in it self neither.

Virgil

01-10-2008, 12:27 PM

I think you need a third option on that pole, that is neither, I mean because it isnt really, it can be held as a symbol of one or the other but it is in it self neither.

I was thinking the same thing. It isn't really either, but tradition. It's traditional wear where one feels a cultural identification. It becomes oppression when someone against her individual choice is forced to wear it. It is liberating when someone choses to wear it against the social pressures of a new culture that they may find themselves in.

Nightshade

01-10-2008, 12:28 PM

Or in fact if they simply choose to wear it in a society that excepts it.

Kafka's Crow

01-10-2008, 12:55 PM

What IS hijab? Is it the head dress that you see girls wearing on the streets of London? Is it the black 'burqa' that Indian Muslim women wear? Is it the disgusting shuttlecock thingy that the taliban forced their womenfolk to wear? Is it the scarf or 'dupatta' just covering the head that Pakistani women wear? Quran never tells Muslim women to wrap themselves up in rags as if there was nothing more shameful than being a woman. It only asks them to wear 'modest dress' and the command is for both men and women. Nowhere is the hijab etc mentioned. It is a cultural practise. Islam is facing the challenge of facing the realities of the modern life and such 'appearances' are just means of holding on to a sense of identity in a 'melting-pot' of cultures. No way does it make a woman a better person and people who wear these things must not be proud and look down upon people who don't follow this cultural practice. Everybody is free to wear what they wear but that's where it should stop. Covering does not make you a better person, neither your faith nor your rituals do. What makes you a better person is your conscious choice of actions that you undertake for the betterment, well-being and welfare of mankind.

Hijab is ambiguous and can not be defined as a symbol of freedom or slavery. It seems more like a symbol of rebellion against the general values of a secular society and in this case it is neither oppressive nor liberating. It is just a symbol of rebellious assertion of one's faith in the face of secular values. I have no problems with people who wear hijab as long as they don't let it add a chip on their shoulder. I would rather opt for a religion of action than a religion of appearances and rituals.

P.S: I am not non-Muslim.

kilted exile

01-10-2008, 01:21 PM

It seems more like a symbol of rebellion against the general values of a secular society and in this case it is neither oppressive nor liberating. It is just a symbol of rebellious assertion of one's faith in the face of secular values.

Ok, I have some "misgivings" about this particular section. I would doubt there are many women (if any) who decide "I'm going to wear a hijab to protest against secularism". I'm also not completely sure what I see as particularly rebellious about it. Should people be forced to not show their religion?

By not wearing a symbol of religion is someone automatically saying that they are in total support of the secular ideal?

Also, what about turbans, crucifixes etc.?

muhsin

01-11-2008, 05:32 AM

Hijab is Protection Against Rape?

This has not stopped Rape happening in countries were women are forced to wear the Niqab - has it?

Rape happens regardles of this because Rape is usually about man's Power over a women. His subjugation of a women.

But if you follow this argument that Niqab is a Protection against Rape.

Then Black People should wear Niqab as a Protection Against Racism?

Manchester United Fans should wear Niqab as a Protection Against Celtic Fans?

Can you see how absurd that line of argument can be? Humanity going about covered to Protect themselves?

C'mon Lote, stop playing silly like this. Are you serious about all you said above. Think just kidding...if not I really have never thought you could have spell out something akin to this.

But any way, in response to your words; it's very obvious that hijab can and will protect one from been raped. You said its by power that man uses...yeah I do agree with you here but how at the first beginning he gets attracted to the woman he wants to rape? Isn't it by looking at her exposed nakedness, which can rightly be comletely covered by Hijab?

And moreover, if you can say it stopped its happenings in countries where wearing Hijab is mandatory then you can very aloud announce it reduces it with very larg percentage. Don't you know that?

Lastly, Islam denounce racism but wearing Hijab has almost nothing to do with protection of it. And I won't say a word in relation to your mention of these football club there. Transcendentally irrelevant!

Are you saing Homosexuality is caused by Women not wearing Hijab and Niqab?

To talk on her/his behalf; I out-and-out don't think thats the meaning. Something else. Re-read it maybe you'll gist it.

I don't see how men are responsible for anything here. They get away scot free. It is the women that needs to cover herself in fear of being raped. It also insults all men - because it makes all men potential rapists. And any decent man would resent that.

Pointless I think. You above said Hijab couldn't protect raping and you here aimlessly says it does. And it's only and only insult to the guilty ones--those that are rapist if not...

Do those going half naked or almost ripped naked insult other men who prepare their women to cover their body? Opposite to what you said?

How would I know. They could be men behind the niqab. How would I know? Our face is very important part of our identity.

Yeah its but you can easily figure this out. Simple as chasing cat to a dog.

They have become unidentified blobs.
;)

I will join in their smiles. I will enquire why are they sad. Have they lost someone close. Are they ill etc. There was a women on the bus to work and she was terribly agigated. I asked her what happened and she said she lost her purse. When we finally found the purse she gave a wonderful smile. She said the only important thing in the purse was a photo of her husband and the key to her house.

Must you?

Yes. When see my women work colleagues distress I will ask them why and can I help etc...

I Like this sentiment.

But it is hiding isn't it? You are viewing the world through a slit in your Niqab. You are saying to the world I am hiding from you. Because it takes away an individuals identity.

I don't think thats what most of them are. This depends heavily upon individual characteristics but the religion says women should lower their gaze upon MEN and things around them...unimportant.

Edit: PS don't take anything personally - we are only debating the ideology of the hijab and niqab

Am sure she/he won't and neither we. Thanks for you questions...certainly I appreciate every single word.

Sweets America

01-11-2008, 06:47 AM

I was thinking the same thing. It isn't really either, but tradition. It's traditional wear where one feels a cultural identification. It becomes oppression when someone against her individual choice is forced to wear it. It is liberating when someone choses to wear it against the social pressures of a new culture that they may find themselves in.

I agree so much!
I don't like when people want to make laws so that no one will be allowed to wear it. Those people say that women are always forced to wear it, which is not always right. I think no law should be made about that and women should be free to decide.

Muhsin, it seems to me that what you say sounds like it is women's fault if they get raped because they expose their bodies. :confused:
If I understood this well, I am shocked. I don't think either that a hijab will protect a woman against rape. If a rapist really needs a victim, if his impulses are uncontrollable, he will rape the first woman he meets, whether she exposes her body or not. Because he will need to relieve his impulses if they become unbearable to him.

muhsin

01-11-2008, 07:25 AM

Muhsin, it seems to me that what you say sounds like it is women's fault if they get raped because they expose their bodies. :confused:
If I understood this well, I am shocked. I don't think either that a hijab will protect a woman against rape. If a rapist really needs a victim, if his impulses are uncontrollable, he will rape the first woman he meets, whether she exposes her body or not. Because he will need to relieve his impulses if they become unbearable to him.

Oh...I didn't say its exactly women's fault. But I said and want to say again most of those raped, they exposed their nakedeness, which simply means an invitation to the rapist. But nonetheless, wearing hijab doesn't mean a shield protection from rapist but it does mean a bit, i.e his male verile or impulse won't be arised. So don't get confuse any more.

papayahed

01-11-2008, 07:54 AM

mercy_mankind

01-11-2008, 07:56 AM

http://file6.9q9q.net/img/94938861/m.jpg (http://file6.9q9q.net/preview/94938861/m.jpg.html)

http://file6.9q9q.net/img/38637243/CAKLXTPM.jpg (http://file6.9q9q.net/preview/38637243/CAKLXTPM.jpg.html)

This two pictures show the form of Islamic Hijab,
http://file5.9q9q.net/img/88633241/images.jpg (http://file5.9q9q.net/preview/88633241/images.jpg.html)
Do you know , Who is she?!
http://file5.9q9q.net/img/48933361/2.jpg (http://file5.9q9q.net/preview/48933361/2.jpg.html)

Muslim woman, a Nun , Christian woman ,Nun represents a purity and chastity , is not it?

Am sure she/he won't and neither we. Thanks for you questions...certainly I appreciate every single word.
Asslamu Alikum,
JAK, brother ,well done
Allah bless you,

mercy_mankind

01-11-2008, 08:40 AM

I was only addressing your reference to the immoral nature of women in the OP. Doesn't morality come from love of god and self respect? I fail to see how wearing the Hijab will change what is inside, but merely give the impression of what should be inside. They should be respected as humans and should not have to live in fear one way or the other.

Not everyone who wore the veil known its right, but the majority of those who wear hijab do with its rules,but just like I said and I will say that the hijab makes women more transparency and purity.

Is looking at a woman disrespectful? Is it disrespectful to look at a man?

Yes , when there are looking with no need , "gazing"
could you tell me , when you are so hungry , and look at the food , so you will find your self that the need for food increases in yourself, right?
so the eye is influential forces in the situation that occurred, either to look at women, it is not only forbidden to men, but both of them must not look at each other, because ,this "looks" will agitate feelings, and then and problems occurs!

The woman drove him to this lust with her appearance and so it is her fault,
Both of them , Also because he could not control himself , but if he did once , he couldn't do anymore.

How will Hijab prevent this kind of man from harming a woman?

Read what brother Muhsin wrote,

A agree that God knows what is best for us, 100% and I'm not saying that to be liberated we must be able to do whatever we choose. but we should be able to choose to obey God. Will it please God for one to obey not out of love, but because they are forced to by the law of man?

So there is no disagreement, and that's happen , the choice ,
there is no forcing at all , if you are talking about exact country , i'll tell you that it is their traditions ,
but , i want you to say the truth, if your son want to damage himself by doing anything fault , what would you?
Will you let him lost front of you without doing anything?
because you don't want to make him did something he don't love?
and after loosing him will you forgive your self ?
that is what i'm talking about , if there is a force from any one that because of love , although i disagree to see any one facing forcing to do a command from Allah .

I appreciate your response to my questions and am not trying to be disrespectful

Thank you , we just are discussing , there is nothing at all. :)

Lote-Tree

01-11-2008, 09:37 AM

C'mon Lote, stop playing silly like this.
Are you serious about all you said above.

Yes. If you follow that line of argument it leads to that kind of absurdity!

If Niqab protects you from Rape then so can it from Racism.

So let's hide ourselves from Racists and Rapists?

But any way, in response to your words; it's very obvious that hijab can and will protect one from been raped.

Not it is not Obvious! Because those countries that force women to wear Niqab Rape still happens!

You said its by power that man uses...yeah I do agree with you here...

Good! Now go and research Rape cases and you will see it on the whole boils down to this.

but how at the first beginning he gets attracted to the woman he wants to rape?

So why do 80 year old grannies get Raped? it's not for her looks is it?

And moreover, if you can say it stopped its happenings in countries where wearing Hijab is mandatory then you can very aloud announce it reduces it with very larg percentage. Don't you know that?

It is not true. Go and research it yourself. Google Pakistan or Saudi Arabia and Rape.

Lastly, Islam denounce racism but wearing Hijab has almost nothing to do with protection of it. And I won't say a word in relation to your mention of these football club there. Transcendentally irrelevant!

I think you have not grasped the absurdity that I was highlighting when you say Hijab is a Protection against Rape. It is no such thing! To wear Hijab as a commandment from God is understandable. But it is certainly not a form of liberation or protection against Rape. To say this is absurd.

Yeah its but you can easily figure this out. Simple as chasing cat to a dog.

Really? Identify this!

http://www.blackcollegewire.org/culture/071013_muslim_women/burka.jpg

Must you?

Yes. Because no man or women is an Island. We are social creatures. We have compassion. It make us human.

I don't think thats what most of them are.

Many parts of the world women are forced to wear the niqab. Thus erasing their idenity as women, as a human being.

Sweets America

01-11-2008, 09:48 AM

Oh...I didn't say its exactly women's fault. But I said and want to say again most of those raped, they exposed their nakedeness, which simply means an invitation to the rapist. But nonetheless, wearing hijab doesn't mean a shield protection from rapist but it does mean a bit, i.e his male verile or impulse won't be arised. So don't get confuse any more.

What you say here is absolutely insulting. You reverse the problem. If men rape women, it is because those men have a problem, a psychological problem which makes them do that. Saying that a woman who shows some part of her body invites the rapist is obnoxious.

Many parts of the world women are forced to wear the niqab. Thus erasing their idenity as women, as a human being.

I am not sure about this last point, Lote. Of course some women are forced to wear it, but some others do it by choice. And, what you see as being a sign of erasement of identity could as well be an affirmation of identity in case a great part of those women's identity is defined through their religious belief.

Nossa

01-11-2008, 10:12 AM

I have a few comments concerning the whole discussion.
I'm a Muslim girl, as most of you already know, and I wear Hijab for almost ten years now. It was something out of my own choice, and conviction, so I'm very proud and happy with it. It's a part of who I am, and more of a reminder that I'm doing something that I'm instructed to do as a Muslim girl, so it's basically a reminder that I'm doing something that God wants me to do. That's been said, I do NOT believe that nowadays Hijab can protect a woman from getting raped. Rapists don't have morals, and they act according to thier lust, whether you're wearing Hijab, Niqab, or a two-peices bathing suit, it doesn't matter to them, as long as they're getting what they want.

Now I have a comment concerning whether women who don't wear Hijab are right or wrong, bad or good, moral or immoral. It's stupid, allow me to say, that who doesn't weat Hijab is immediately bad. It's like saying that whoever isn't a Muslims or isn't following the same belief as you are is bad and wrong. Hijab doesn't make you good, if you don't know your religion, and don't follow it as it should be followed, then wearing Hijab is pointless. For me, Hijab was a reminder, as I said, as a Muslim girl, that I have certain responsibilities towards it, it's more than a head cover for me, and untill it's more than a head cover for whoever wears it, it's of NO use. Untill it's treated as more than a tradition, then it's pointless.

Nossa

01-11-2008, 10:18 AM

I am not sure about this last point, Lote. Of course some women are forced to wear it, but some others do it by choice. And, what you see as being a sign of erasement of identity could as well be an affirmation of identity in case a great part of those women's identity is defined through their religious belief.

Yes, I agree. A muslim girl will remain a muslim even without wearing Hijab anyways. So there's nothing about identity here, when someone is focred to wear al Hijab it's not about her identity, as much as it's about her own conviction with it. I know first hand that if a girl, now, is forced to wear Hijab, she'll take it off at some point.

I think the problem here is that most people gave Hijan a 3D effect and are treating it as someone who's responsible for people's actions. There's nothing wrong with Hijab as a concept, I think the probelm is mainly with those who wear it and see others as wrong, and those who don't wear it and view the rest of us as women who have no identity or will, just cuz we're doing something we believe is right. No personal remark intended of course.

Logos

01-11-2008, 10:46 AM

Oh great! :rolleyes: lots of wide-sweeping generalisations going on here.

Please remember there are specific rules for this area of the forums:
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410

--

Lote-Tree

01-11-2008, 10:59 AM

...I'm doing something that I'm instructed to do as a Muslim girl, so it's basically a reminder that I'm doing something that God wants me to do.

Nossa that can be understanable. An Instruction from God.

But you would not equate with Liberation and Protection Against Rape would you?

mercy_mankind

01-11-2008, 11:05 AM

What you say here is absolutely insulting. You reverse the problem. If men rape women, it is because those men have a problem, a psychological problem which makes them do that. Saying that a woman who shows some part of her body invites the rapist is obnoxious.

sorry sweets America , There is no insulting here to any one , so don't take it PERSONALLY!

it is because those men have a problem, a psychological problem which makes them do that.

Okay , Could you tell me , Why have that rapist a psychological problem?
I'm waiting for your answers.

I'm a Muslim girl, as most of you already know, and I wear Hijab for almost ten years now. It was something out of my own choice, and conviction, so I'm very proud and happy with it. It's a part of who I am, and more of a reminder that I'm doing something that I'm instructed to do as a Muslim girl,

Beautiful words , Allah bless and protect you.

That's been said, I do NOT believe that nowadays Hijab can protect a woman from getting raped. Rapists don't have morals, and they act according to thier lust, whether you're wearing Hijab, Niqab, or a two-peices bathing suit, it doesn't matter to them, as long as they're getting what they want.

You said , NOWADAYS .
That's mean Hijab alrdeay protect , but nowadays not.
you know why?
Because the Islamic world facing a great problems just like. Occupation and the resulting of occupation is moral corruption, theft, bribery , and that the nature of what faces in most if not all the Islamic world.

allow me to say, that who doesn't weat Hijab is immediately bad. It's like saying that whoever isn't a Muslims or isn't following the same belief as you are is bad and wrong.
Sorry ,Nossa .I disagree with you , there is no one here said that words ,
and don't forget that Verse "O mankind! We have indeed created you from a male and a female, [from] Adam and Eve, and made you nations,and tribes that you may come to know one another has been omitted), that you may acquire knowledge of [the customs of] one another and not to boast to one another " [49- Al-Hujurat , 13]

For me, Hijab was a reminder, as I said, as a Muslim girl, that I have certain responsibilities towards it, it's more than a head cover for me, and untill it's more than a head cover for whoever wears it, it's of NO use. Untill it's treated as more than a tradition, then it's pointless.

Good,Nossa,
Hijab is not a piece of cloth , it is so much great than that .

Nossa

01-11-2008, 11:07 AM

Nossa that can be understanable. An Instruction from God.

But you would not equate with Liberation and Protection Against Rape would you?

Nope, I already said, Hijab is NOT a protections against the evils of the soceity. But I do think it's an act of liberation, as long as you're doing it out of your own will and choice, as it was for me. Enough said that my dad didn't want me to wear it as early as I did, but I did what I think was right.

@Logos: I'm sorry if I broke any rules by my comment, I didn't mean any generalisations. I apologise.

You said , NOWADAYS .
That's mean Hijab alrdeay protect , but nowadays not.
you know why?
Because the Islamic world facing a great problems just like. Occupation and the resulting of occupation is moral corruption, theft, bribery , and that the nature of what faces in most if not all the Islamic world.

Okay, let me elaborate on why I said nowadays. I believe that some people now live by the law of thier own lust and desire, no respect whatsoever to anything else, and so whether you wear Hijab or not, it doesn't matter. I've seen, in our streets in Cairo, women and girls wearing Niqab and get picked on, and they're being subjected to things that even those who don't wear Hijab don't face sometimes. It's not about what you wear, it's about those around you. Time changed, there came a time when people did respect your beliefs and what you stood for, whatever that belief is, now some people don't have any regard to that. I understand that you believe, as me, that Hijab is protection, but sometimes it doesn't work this way, I'm sorry to say.

Sweets America

01-11-2008, 11:18 AM

sorry sweets America , There is no insulting here to any one , so don't take it PERSONALLY!
I am not taking it personally, you know, it is just that I imagine how women who have been raped would react to your statement.

Okay , Could you tell me , Why have that rapist a psychological problem?
I'm waiting for your answers.

I think the rapist has a psychological problem because he needs to have sex with women without their consent. I hope you agree that it is not quite right.

I am not sure that these men are necessarily bad persons. I guess their life history jsut led them to be this way, and they have impulses that they cannot refrain because if they did, it would give them great anxiety. So they just give in and rape women. Some men regret what they do, but they cannot help it. Some other men have no regret at all, though. I really cannot generalize on this. But I was mainly saying that someone who does that to someone else without the person's consent must have a problem in how they see human relationships.

Now you are saying that it is the women's fault because they dress themselves a certain way, but saying that is denying the man's problem and reversing the situation. It is also insulting towards the woman who has been traumatised by this experience and who just was in the wrong place at the wrong moment.

mercy_mankind

01-11-2008, 11:23 AM

Okay, let me elaborate on why I said nowadays. I believe that some people now live by the law of thier own lust and desire, no respect whatsoever to anything else, and so whether you wear Hijab or not, it doesn't matter. I've seen, in our streets in Cairo, women and girls wearing Niqab and get picked on, and they're being subjected to things that even those who don't wear Hijab don't face sometimes. It's not about what you wear, it's about those around you. Time changed, there came a time when people did respect your beliefs and what you stood for, whatever that belief is, now some people don't have any regard to that. I understand that you believe, as me, that Hijab is protection, but sometimes it doesn't work this way, I'm sorry to say.
Yes you are right , but could you tell me WHY they are doing that?
What's lead them not to respect any one or any religion?
Immm, so you must believe that it is a protection , because that is not my words ,
Surah Al-Nur (the Light) (24:31) in the Quran states: "They (the believing women) should draw their head coverings over their bosoms...". . Surah Al-Ahzab (33:59) states: "O Prophet [PBUH] Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should put on their outer garments; that is most convenient in order that THEY MAY BE RECOGNIZED (as Muslims) and not be molested."
and i'm not talking about the abnormal , I'm talking about the base.:)

Nossa

01-11-2008, 11:29 AM

Yes you are right , but could you tell me WHY they are doing that?
What's lead them not to respect any one or any religion?
Immm, so you must believe that it is a protection , because that is not my words ,
and i'm not talking about the abnormal , I'm talking about the base.:)

You've just proved my point of view from the Holy Qura'an. They wore Hijab to be recognised as Muslim women, who shouldn't be molested, by whom?!! by people around them. Which means that those who lived then were willing to submit to that rule. Now, many people don't live by that law, even if it was a divine one, and so Hijab today, though primarily a protection, doesn't stand for that any more for rapists, or else we wouldn't have any rape cases in a country like Egypt for instance.

Logos

01-11-2008, 11:34 AM

sorry sweets America , There is no insulting here to any one , so don't take it PERSONALLY!
Actually, some people can and *do* take things very personally here, especially in the religious texts forums :) So please, express your opinions, ideas, beliefs, etc. but remember people will not always hold the same.

@Logos: I'm sorry if I broke any rules by my comment, I didn't mean any generalisations. I apologise.
My same comment as above to you :) it is fine and great to express your opinions, beliefs, etc...but remember people will not always hold the same.

--

And that goes for everyone, re: the rules and tolerance towards others, because this topic is being watched very carefully ;) and I would not like to see posts removed or the thread closed.

--

mercy_mankind

01-11-2008, 11:55 AM

.Now you are saying that it is the women's fault because they dress themselves a certain way, but saying that is denying the man's problem and reversing the situation. It is also insulting towards the woman who has been traumatised by this experience and who just was in the wrong place at the wrong moment.

I'm not insulting any one , not the rapist , nor the usurped woman , do you know why , because both of them in most cases are faulter , but there are some cases that the usurped woman is innocent , but it is a few cases , and that repist has to face his fault and his punishment .
so please don't generalise my words .

another question , the rate of raping in the world raised in the twentieth century,right?

that is because of the leatest movements of disrespecting religions and disrespecting to individuals.

I am not sure that these men are necessarily bad persons. I guess their life history jsut led them to be this way, and they have impulses that they cannot refrain because if they did, it would give them great anxiety.

Some men regret what they do, but they cannot help it.
Yes, i agree with you , but Why he did that orginally , we have to be wise people , What makes that regret rapist do that?
simple example:
Man who married woman reached forty or fifty, and his wife experienced service operations, childbirth and breastfeeding, and the impact of time in beauty .. If he left of the street and view a girl in the prime of life, the best of ornamental, and young. what would be his position for her when seeing?

His instincts will be moved after what was normal, and when his wife was due to begin in the comparison unfair.

Actually, some people can and *do* take things very personally here, especially in the religious texts forums :) So please, express your opinions, ideas, beliefs, etc. but remember people will not always hold the same

Thank you Logos , but actually I respect everyone here , and I respect all your thoughts , that's made sad to find people misunderstanding me , and thought that i want to insult them , that is not true , I'm just want to tell you about Hijab , because I know that ""some"" of you think badly about women in Hijab , and i want to change that thought with all my respect to everyone.
and also I want from you the same to exchange the respect , that to respect my thoughts and religion also .
if you want to close it , do it ,if that topic will cause anything of hatred , and that is what i really hate .
Thank you again , :)
my Regards to you.

Sweets America

01-11-2008, 12:15 PM

I'm not insulting any one , not the rapist , nor the usurped woman , do you know why , because both of them in most cases are faulter , but there are some cases that the usurped woman is innocent , but it is a few cases , and that repist has to face his fault and his punishment .
so please don't generalise my words .

I just have trouble to understand why it would be the woman's fault, you know. I don't understand what you mean because one has the right to dress the way one wants to dress without being attacked by a man, I think. It's not the woman's fault if a man cannot repress his impulses.
I am sorry to use such an inappropriate comparison, but if a guy wants to stop smoking, and he sees people around who smoke, and if it makes him give in and smoke, it is not the fault of the other smokers, it is only the fault of the man who couldn't resist smoking. It's all a question of the individual's choice and control of the impulses.

another question , the rate of raping in the world raised in the twentieth century,right?

that is because of the leatest movements of disrespecting religions and disrespecting to individuals.

I cannot really tell if that is right or not, about the number of rapes that have increased, because I have no idea.
But, I don't see the link with religions. Impulses and psychological problems have nothing to do with religions or morality.

Yes, i agree with you , but Why he did that orginally , we have to be wise people , What makes that regret rapist do that?
simple example:
Man who married woman reached forty or fifty, and his wife experienced service operations, childbirth and breastfeeding, and the impact of time in beauty .. If he left of the street and view a girl in the prime of life, the best of ornamental, and young. what would be his position for her when seeing?

But, but....:( what about love? I mean, when you love a person, when you are married to a person, you love this person the way she is, and physical appearance is not the most important.
And, seeing a beautiful girl on the street is not a reason to rape her, is it? I think men can control themselves. Plus, if my husband were having such thoughts about other girls, I would certainly need to discuss with him seriously. :(

PrinceMyshkin

01-11-2008, 12:38 PM

Oh...I didn't say its exactly women's fault. But I said and want to say again most of those raped, they exposed their nakedeness, which simply means an invitation to the rapist.

By the same argument, if a man or woman takes out some dollar bills to pay for things in a store and later gets robbed by an onlooker, the man or woman who exposed that money should be arrested. Similarly anyone who parks their car in the street should be held responsible if that car is stolen, all the more so if it is an especially attractive car...

Lote-Tree

01-11-2008, 12:42 PM

Sweets America

01-11-2008, 01:04 PM

Jane Jane

01-11-2008, 01:37 PM

These men that rape, I wish with all my heart they were dealt with in a way that might tell others contemplating it that there are consequences, terrible ones. I think whatever one wears, such men already have it in their dark ugly hearts to use their power to inflict pain, humiliation and cruelty upon a woman, period.It sounds as if what a woman wears makes a man with a brain unable to control himself, just FORCES him to go out there and committ these heinous atrocities. If that is so then you ought to be seeing that kind of horror en masse in places like Los Angeles or New York. No, clothes for protection or not, it is the horrible m entality of a group of men who think women are nothing it seems to me and therefore any excuse is good enough to rape her and destroy her life. But that is only my opinion. It is just a power and control thing I think.

Sweets America

01-11-2008, 01:47 PM

Etienne

01-11-2008, 05:23 PM

Similarly anyone who parks their car in the street should be held responsible if that car is stolen, all the more so if it is an especially attractive car...

Here's a remedy to your problem:

http://www.electriccarsandcarts.com/images/options/CarCoverweb1.jpg

:D

Niamh

01-11-2008, 05:48 PM

Can we please return to the main topic of discussion and off the topic of rape etc. Thank you:D

Shield&Sword

01-11-2008, 06:54 PM

Assalamo alaikom

Living here in europe i learned alot of things about islam, one of the things that made me so sure about Hijab and it's positive results is the behaviour of the men here. I study medicine here and most of students here are girls, nearly all my friends that i know (they dont study medicine) ask me about girls there and talk so badly about them, even some students who study other subjects go to my university to watch girls, especially in summer and always when summer comes they say now the meat wont cost, in winter they forget girls, in summer they go to seek girls and behave so nicely to them and when girls go they begin to talk so badly about them, i think all of you understand what i intend, the only persons that are in safe are the "not beutiful" (as men define them here) and the old women.
Islam didnt order women to wear hijab only to protect them from rape, it protect them from eyes of sick people and from their dirty tongue, not only from rape but also not to deceived by men.
Here the body of women is used for publicity to attract costumers to make more money, here the most famous women are not the smart women, but the women who have sexy body and so on.
Islam didnt order only women to cover their heads but ordered men not to watch women, the men are forced not to look at women who dont wear hijab and who look at them then he will be asked about this in day of judgment, when such men exist then women are safe, but what about the men who look at every woman, what is the solution? the solution is Hijab. Muslim men dont look and muslim women wear hijab, this way non muslim women (also non religious muslim women) wont be treated as center of sensuality and in same time muslim women will be protected from non muslim men (and from non religious muslims). 2 thing that complete each other to create a safe society for all.

For Lote who said that also black men should cover face so they will be protected, perhaps in europe and america its the best way as long racist people exist.

Sweets America

01-11-2008, 07:04 PM

I understand your point Shieldandsword, but I don't agree with the last sentence about racism. I mean, it's not a solution for black people to hide themselves and pretend that the problem is solved.

Etienne

01-11-2008, 07:14 PM

Shield&Sword: Women are free, if they want to hide their beauty, they can, if they don't want to, why should they have to? Your reasoning is as much applicable to women towards men. Why don't men have to wear a Hijab? You talk about it being useful for the respect of women, but I think this is very ironic, such way of thinking is a Pandora box to any and every kind of intolerance, up to the most extreme. What if I said that Christian inquisition in Spain was justified because they were saving Jews from eternal damnation?

That women consciously, without feeling threatened if they don't, to wear hijap is perfectly fine, but it's the repression (just like Jewish repression of the inquisition) if they don't wear Hijab (convert to Christianity) that I blame.

I am not putting a judgment against Hijab, I am putting a judgment against intolerance toward women who do not wish to wear one, and against attempts of rational justification which, in the end, are only hiding one's head in the sand.

Nightshade

01-11-2008, 08:08 PM

I have what can be held as a lets say an 'unorthdox' view on hijabs. But hey Ive decided to share ...:D

Firstly there are only 2 references to hijjab in the koran and both of them are ambiguous and more to do with the idea that modesty is a good idea, that actual hijab in my opinion is a cultural interpretation of what was meant by modest and thus passed down.

Secondly- One of the purposes of Hijabbs are deflection of sin, as it were. That is if 'fantising' borders on a sin, and if men naturally think of sex on average around once every 8 seconds ( some official statistics from something or other cant remember ) then it is unfair to add to it by dressing and 'flaunting' in a way that encourages /stimulates it. So the theory is if you dress to create that kind of image gets double the sin of the person who is sinning. I might add that on this point IMO this refers more to the awrah which applicable to both sexes and is parts of the body that shouldn’t be shown except to certain people under certain circumstances and the rules are long but as I remember them women to women is from your neck not including arms to knees, men -men is waist to knees, Men-women is torso (not including arms ) to calfs and women-men is neck (arms till wrists) to ankles... or something like that.

Thirdly--- Related to this it is for deflecting attention, so perhaps while it is amazing good camouflage in a ‘Muslim’ country sort of defeats the object in the west.
Fourthly—Ah yes protection. Protection against what? Certainly not against physical harm, and if you walk down the theory of harm and evil in Islam you hit upon the concept of the evil that only you can produce or save your self from really. So IMO sometimes wherein the hijaabb is more of a sort of physical moral support thing to help one steer clear of temptation, Im not talking about giant things ( religiously speaking) like sex and stuff, but even the little things , Plus in the west it is the best excuse to get out of the argument ‘How can trying it just once hurt”? or “ the uniform is a mini skirt” ...

But mostly I think that in the big picture hijabs are barley a spot... there is so much more to being a muslim, and a muslim woman than the way you dress, and the perception of society any society on you based on the way you dress, and that putting such importance to it does a major disservice not only women and the religion but to the people who are too caught up in their prejudices and preconception ( whichever they may be) to look beyond what is basically a scrap of material, that doesn’t really hide that much.

On a more personal level, wearing a hijab is just right for some people and for others its not. As with most if not all religious practices its between the person their conscience and God and its no one else business.

Shield&Sword

01-11-2008, 08:28 PM

Sweet i didnt mean that realy, my answer was same "type" of Lote opinion. You can notice i talked against racist people not black people.

I wont answer your question why men dont wear hijab, lets be realistic.

Islam is does not concern individual life, it is also society, politics, it enter in every part of life.
If the major part of a society decide to live islamic life then all the members must respect the majority. As i said before islam does not allow any relation before marrage, and Hijab is one of ways that protect such society from such act, i think you agree with me because you said "show their beauty", women show their beauty to men who seek beauty, and it lead to negative result.
In europe women decided to show their beauty for all, and make relation before marrage and so on, so the society allow them to uncover their heads, but we find in europian countries like france, Netherlands, (also other countries are studying such law) Hijab not allowed in universities and we find alot of muslim girls against such law and call such "free" countries to cancel such law. I cant be against such countries, the majority decide what they want. Now immagine that in some countries such muslim women who insist to wear Hijab (no one can say that they are oppressed in europe by muslim men to wear hijab) are the majority, dont you think that the minority must respect the majority and behave in public like them.
For example in israel were muslims (2 million) live with jews (6 million), you find the muslim women wear hijab by their own decision, no "opression" by muslim men can be made their because the law is same in europe, but we find thousands of women wear the Hijab.
Same thing for church were they form their own "society", the woman there if she want to enter church and live there by her own decision she "must" cover her head incide church. I cant say its oppression, its the majority who decide.
I say it again, muslim girls doesnt agree to be watched as body, or to be deceived by men or to be described with bad words so islam founded Hijab, or lets say ordered hijab because we can find hijab also in Judaism and christianity which are much older than islam.

Night. references in Holy Quran about Hijab are not ambiguous. They are so clear.

KJVO1611

01-12-2008, 12:28 AM

Etienne

01-12-2008, 12:34 AM

I wont answer your question why men dont wear hijab, lets be realistic.

I am not talking about being realistic, I am talking about your argument. If you can't defend this, then your whole argument crumbles.

If the major part of a society decide to live islamic life then all the members must respect the majority.

Well then, I guess that also means we should forbid people to practice their religion in a country where it is not the official religion? Right? That's your argument?

In europe women decided to show their beauty for all, and make relation before marrage and so on, so the society allow them to uncover their heads, but we find in europian countries like france, Netherlands, (also other countries are studying such law) Hijab not allowed in universities and we find alot of muslim girls against such law and call such "free" countries to cancel such law.

There are rational reasons why such laws exist, so it is not a matter of intolerance. If someone wears Hijab, how does anyone know it is the right person doing the exam, for example? I'm not saying they is no degree of intolerance in such laws, I would have to know more about them, but the backbone is rational.

dont you think that the minority must respect the majority and behave in public like them.

You cannot make such a general statement like this. Said in a general way like this I could only disagree, and after that we have to look on more precise cases (ex: no one should murder). But your statement could also mean: If you are not in a Muslim country, you cannot practice your religion, which is absolutely wrong.

For example in israel were muslims (2 million) live with jews (6 million), you find the muslim women wear hijab by their own decision, no "opression" by muslim men can be made their because the law is same in europe, but we find thousands of women wear the Hijab.

This statement is absolutely wrong. If we want to go in particular examples, a father killed his daughter recently in Canada because she adopted a "western" style of life. This is an extreme example of a more benign (I don't like using this term here) and generalized problem. And your statement is even more false in the case of Israel.

Same thing for church were they form their own "society", the woman there if she want to enter church and live there by her own decision she "must" cover her head incide church. I cant say its oppression, its the majority who decide.

This is absolutely not the same. If you go to Church it means you agree to conform with it's precepts. Just like if I don't want you to smoke in my house, you won't smoke in my house. The Church is a particular place of cult. Just like I won't wear shorts if I go to a Mosque, because if I don't agree, then I have nothing to do there. However can we say the same about the... street? The grocery store? If a women doesn't want to wear the Hijab then she just has not to show herself in public or to anyone? I'm sorry but such comparison is wrong.

Night. references in Holy Quran about Hijab are not ambiguous. They are so clear.

Absolutely not. Quote please. At the same time, quote me other beliefs such as "no image of Mohammad". They are only extremist interpretation of very simple precepts, in the same way as I would say: "eat carrots, it's good for the health" and it would be interpreted as "eat only carrots".

Virgil

01-12-2008, 12:37 AM

On a more personal level, wearing a hijab is just right for some people and for others its not. As with most if not all religious practices its between the person their conscience and God and its no one else business.

Well said, Night. All I've seen here is that every muslim woman on the thread prefers to wear it. How can it then be oppresion? Is there a muslim woman here or that anyone has met that considers it oppresive?

crazefest456

01-12-2008, 12:44 AM

I would like to say that I think it is a form of repression. Here's why, I believe in modesty i.e. skirts or dresses to the END of the knee, high neck-lines, sleeves, etc. But if your going to go to an extreme to where you can't see the face, I think that's a little to extreme. Maybe I'm wrong on this, and maybe I'm a liberal for thinking so, but tell me, would you go to so much of an extreme? i know it's the culture and custom of the people, and in some ways I applaud them. They actually stick to their dress code from the beginning to present. America can never say that. It started out as a modest, Biblical standard of living, to a worldly, evil way of living. To where it's basically, whatever feels good IS good.

I guess it (the face veil, called a niqaab) seems extreme because it is an estranged practice nowadays. But it's purely a personal choice for some muslim women, who are at a "higher" spiritual level. I've met and befriended a few of these women, and they're really satisfied with this lifestyle. They have an awesome personality...I don't see it as an extremity.

Etienne

01-12-2008, 01:22 AM

Well said, Night. All I've seen here is that every muslim woman on the thread prefers to wear it. How can it then be oppresion? Is there a muslim woman here or that anyone has met that considers it oppresive?

But the main point of the ongoing discussion is about forcing women to wear it. It can be a symbol of oppression because no matter whether they chose or not, they HAVE to wear it. And we also have to take into account the distinction with "being" and "being a symbol of".

B-Mental

01-12-2008, 01:23 AM

I didn't really want to vote, but I ended up voting for repressive. This was after reading and re reading all of the entries. The arguements for wearing it tend to blame women for the man's inability to control himself...then is not that man the sinner? Cloth will not make a woman pure. I do believe that those that choose to wear it may feel liberated...but still the arguements are too flimsy and blame the women for everything.

Virgil

01-12-2008, 01:26 AM

But the main point of the ongoing discussion is about forcing women to wear it. It can be a symbol of oppression because no matter whether they chose or not, they HAVE to wear it. And we also have to take into account the distinction with "being" and "being a symbol of".

So what. I have to wear a suit and tie when I have to make a presentation to management. I HAVE to wear it. Besides I haven't heard any woman here who wear one say they HAVE to wear it. So that's bogus.

Etienne

01-12-2008, 01:46 AM

So what. I have to wear a suit and tie when I have to make a presentation to management. I HAVE to wear it. Besides I haven't heard any woman here who wear one say they HAVE to wear it. So that's bogus.

Do you have to wear and suit and tie to go on the street? If women had to wear a Hijab only to go to the mosque, for example, then it would not be a problem. That you have to wear a suit and tie is specific to the activity you are doing. So such comparison is non sequitur. And the fact that no women on a shady forum in english about literature complain about it, does not account for the whole world, I'm afraid. Are you ready to declare that no women wear the Hijab because they are forced? And past that we have people saying that it is right for them to be forced. Even if the women wouldn't care, it wouldn't be right to force them, do you agree? Also if the only consequence to not wearing a Hijab would be, for example, not being able to go to the Mosque or not be considered Muslim by certain people (just like you not wearing a suit and tie would only mean that you wouldn't be able to go to your presentation), then it would be the same thing either. However the repression that is referred to is not limited to this, I'm afraid.

The discourse you are holding there is also very bogus, to use your own terms, with the discourse you have toward communism, which would make a much better comparison, although also inaccurate, then your suit and tie.

If I told you every men has to wear a suit and tie when they are in public or they are subject to something comparable to the Sharia, it would feel different, wouldn't it?

Virgil

01-12-2008, 01:52 AM

Do you have to wear and suit and tie to go on the street? If women had to wear a Hijab only to go to the mosque, for example, then it would not be a problem.
Who the hell are you to stipulate what other people's religions require? First of all i's none of your business.

That you have to wear a suit and tie is specific to the activity you are doing. So such comparison is non sequitur.
The point is we all have traditional garb that we wear, even you if you looked closely enough at your life.

And the fact that no women on a shady forum
Shady forum? You have a habit of insulting people. This is not your first time. If you consider this a shady forum, why don't you get off. As far as I'm concerned I will never speak to you again. You insulted me and Americans once. Now you insult everyone on this forum. :flare:

Il Penseroso

01-12-2008, 02:02 AM

I haven't read all through this thread, and I may be stepping in at a bad time, but I don't think that a comparison between the Hijab and a suit and tie is valid. A suit and tie does not cover an extranneous body surface feature (like the Hijab does hair) that is essentially pointless (other than as conformity within the bounds of the Islamic religion). A suit and tie in fact accentuates the masculine features heighth and squared shoulders. A Hajib does in fact "hide" the typically feminine quality of long hair.

also, do you believe that you Having to wear a suit and tie to work is not repression of a sort? It's just repression that is so ingrained in our society (like the Hijab in Ismlamic society) that we refuse to acknowledge that it limits a person's creativity/comfort by dictating what they can or cannot wear to fit in.

Etienne

01-12-2008, 03:04 AM

Who the hell are you to stipulate what other people's religions require? First of all i's none of your business.

I am not one to stipulate what other people's religion require. Although I am one to criticize the repression of those who do not conform to a given religion. That's all I've said and I haven't got farther than that in my speech, you've managed to find dirt where there is none.

The point is we all have traditional garb that we wear, even you if you looked closely enough at your life.

What is the point f this? Of course we do, why don't you focus on the point which is the repression?

Shady forum? You have a habit of insulting people. This is not your first time. If you consider this a shady forum, why don't you get off. As far as I'm concerned I will never speak to you again. You insulted me and Americans once. Now you insult everyone on this forum. :flare:

I meant shady in the sense of obscure... I looked in the dictionary (English not being my native language, perhaps I had made a blunder?), there is four definitions of the word, only one has a negative connotation. You had to take that one, of course...

And honestly in the context of my words, I'm astonished you interpreted it that way, it seems like you are trying as hard as you can to be offended... I have not insulted you, or Americans and even less this forum. That you interpret it that way is not my problem, I assume my words but not your twisted interpretations. Maybe I am just not putting enough fluff in my words for you. You have a habit of always seeing in black, astonishingly even when it is white.

Do you like being offended?

Etienne

01-12-2008, 03:11 AM

also, do you believe that you Having to wear a suit and tie to work is not repression of a sort? It's just repression that is so ingrained in our society (like the Hijab in Ismlamic society) that we refuse to acknowledge that it limits a person's creativity/comfort by dictating what they can or cannot wear to fit in.

Wearing a suit and tie is merely decorum for a certain event or occupation. I really don't see what's so hard in making the distinction between this and the Hijab which EVERY women has to wear ALL THE TIME. As I said comparing suit and tie to Hijab would be more accurate if the Hijab would only have to be worn at the Mosque, for example. One doesn't HAVE to go to the Mosque, and if she does, then she accepts to wear a certain costume while she's doing this particular occupation.

Then consider the consequences. One who is not wearing a suit and tie will only be forbidden to pursue the particular occupation that requires one. A women will be subject to the Sharia...

Is it the same to be forbidden to practice Islam in a Church and being forbidden to practice Islam at all?

crazefest456

01-12-2008, 03:51 AM

Wearing a suit and tie is merely decorum for a certain event or occupation. I really don't see what's so hard in making the distinction between this and the Hijab which EVERY women has to wear ALL THE TIME. As I said comparing suit and tie to Hijab would be more accurate if the Hijab would only have to be worn at the Mosque, for example. One doesn't HAVE to go to the Mosque, and if she does, then she accepts to wear a certain costume while she's doing this particular occupation.

Then consider the consequences. One who is not wearing a suit and tie will only be forbidden to pursue the particular occupation that requires one. A women will be subject to the Sharia...

Is it the same to be forbidden to practice Islam in a Church and being forbidden to practice Islam at all?

I'd like to point out, Etienne, that Islam for alot of muslims is much more than the five "ceremonies" that we practice in a mosque-- Islam is a lifestyle. To become closer and closer to God, one most live, breathe, eat, drink the faith-- the oneness of God. And we do that through living as though every action we do is in worship. So succumbing to being hijabi only in the mosque (while practicing this aforementioned "occupation") completely defeats the purpose. The Hijab is more than a physical covering...it's something that really spirtually helps us thrive...I'm pretty sure I don't make sense, because I can't; you've got to experience the feelings to understand.

Plus, when praying in a mosque (or at home) the least that one could do (man or woman) is cover themselves as much as they can afford to (this is the shariah point of view):

A person who has no clothing [no clean clothes, or none at all, or not enough to cover all that must be covered] may make one's prayer without them, [or with as much as one has] facing the qiblah
This quote is from Essential Islamic Knowledge by Qadi Thanaullah Panpati.
But think about it, wouldn't you want to exercise the utmost modesty when conversing with God? Don't you want to present yourself respectably before him

muhsin

01-12-2008, 06:18 AM

By the same argument, if a man or woman takes out some dollar bills to pay for things in a store and later gets robbed by an onlooker, the man or woman who exposed that money should be arrested. Similarly anyone who parks their car in the street should be held responsible if that car is stolen, all the more so if it is an especially attractive car...

Let me borrow Sweet American expression; how intelligent! Hmm... but how eager and pointless!

You don't actually fathomed what I said dear. I said most, which means not always but at times. And tell me of one case of rape you witnessed or heard about? How did it happen, any way?

Hmm...in the case of your examples; what kind of law says you would be arrested while its obviously you are the victim. Why and how that that exposed the money be charged responsible? And moreover, I don't know how it is in your country but whoever parks his car, for instance even at banks or other offices; its boldly written AT OWNER'S RISK. Thus if its stolen then who should...eh?

On a more serious note; I'm a male and probably you are a female thats why you don't know how it is to see a woman going with her body (nakedness) exposed! You'll feel like sth is burning within you. Certainly! But if she covers her body; head to toe, then how can you guess the case here? Perfectly nothing, really nothing you'll feel. No impulse. No rising charges. NO NOTHING. But that doesn't say she won't be raped but at least it reduce the possibility of its occurence.

Thanks.
Muhsin