This God thing

[blazeofglory]

This is an enigma that we human beings believe in God and live with so many ideals. Are we superior to animal beings? I doubt in point of fact.

We are indeed superior just because we are armed with weapons can can kill human beings in wars and battles? We are superior just because we can destroy nature and degrade ecological conditions?

Does our God protect us from being cruel and ruthless? Does man's belief in heaven and hell make us kinder and more generous to other living beings?

Of course there is brutality in nature and animals are set against one another and kill. Are we morally better or ethically better than animal beings?

Does our idea of God help us overcomie our brutalities?

These questions always intrigue me.

I am indeed not a disbeliever either. I read the Gita, the Veda, the Bible, the Koran.
I feel I am sublimated after going sacred books of course, yet there are shades of doubt, and the skeptic within me at times become manifest.

What do you feel about this?

[weepingforloman]

First, I believe that animals are incapable of being morally good or bad. They operate solely on instinct. The fact that humans have the ability to discern good and evil makes us capable of good and evil- far more often evil.
Second, I don't believe that belief in God makes a man better. But it should make him better. If a man really experiences a relationship with God, shouldn't he be changed by it? That is why I am forced to conclude that many who claim to believe in God do so in either a nonexistent way (i.e., they don't really believe) or in a dry, intellectualized way (they don't have a relationship with Him- of course, there is nothing wrong with intellect, but there must be some emotion involved).

[M Turner]

We are indeed superior just because we are armed with weapons can can kill human beings in wars and battles? We are superior just because we can destroy nature and degrade ecological conditions?

I think most people believe that humans are superior to animals simply because we have the capacity for higher though and logical reasoning. We have complex and intricate communications and have built a society that spreads across the world like no other animal has. We are certainly not superior because we destroy our planet, but we are thought to be superior because we have the (unfortunately demonstrated) ability to do so.



Does our God protect us from being cruel and ruthless? Does man's belief in heaven and hell make us kinder and more generous to other living beings?

The first question answers itself. Of course God doesn't protect us from being cruel and ruthless, war is the product of that. Heaven and Hell, I think, have very little to do with the way people treat each other nowadays. Compassion, I find, comes from one's philosophy of life rather than the traditional beliefs of "be good and go to heaven".



Of course there is brutality in nature and animals are set against one another and kill. Are we morally better or ethically better than animal beings?

No. We are manipulated by an authoritarian attitude in society that breeds blind obedience, thus we believe that our brutality is justified. Wild animals kill with little or no regard for their victim, though humans have a capacity for compassion, just because we have that capacity doesn't mean that when we kill somebody it is justifiable. Animals kill for food, we kill for God, country and oil. Does that seem justifiable?

[B-Mental]

I think most people believe that humans are superior to animals simply because we have the capacity for higher though and logical reasoning. We have complex and intricate communications and have built a society that spreads across the world like no other animal has. We are certainly not superior because we destroy our planet, but we are thought to be superior because we have the (unfortunately demonstrated) ability to do so.

Does this truly make us superior, or superior in our eyes. Are animals capable of killing other animals by the millions. The myth of superiority is a learned thought. That which can be learned can be unlearned.





No. We are manipulated by an authoritarian attitude in society that breeds blind obedience, thus we believe that our brutality is justified. Wild animals kill with little or no regard for their victim, though humans have a capacity for compassion, just because we have that capacity doesn't mean that when we kill somebody it is justifiable. Animals kill for food, we kill for God, country and oil. Does that seem justifiable?

I guess I don't accept the "authoritarian attitude" and "blind obedience" comment. Brutality is never justified. We are not lead by others, we all have free will. Many people deny this, and that is truly sad.

[Dark Muse]

I come from a belief system that believes in trying to live in harmony with nature and animals, and not trying to control nature or her inhabitants. I have always believed in the intelligence of animals, even if they may have different ways of thinking and viewing the world then humans do, I do not think that makes them stupid or inferior.

I do not believe that humans are superior to animals just because humans are different from animals. I think in fact all too often humans tend to forget that they themselves are just animals. Being a believer in evolution, we are nothing more then apes.

I also think that people tend to use the whole idea of communication as a proof of the inferiority of animals, but I think this is misguided, just because animals do not speak in human speech, or in a way that humans can understand does not mean animals lack communication skills. In fact animals often have very complex communication abilities humans just lack understanding of animal communication.

In fact just about anyone who has ever owned a dog has had those moments when they could almost swear their dog knew just what they were thinking. This is because humans are creatures of habit, and their body language can give away just what they are thinking or planning to do, without even realizing it. Even the slightest twitch of a muscle, arch of an eyebrow, particular smile is associated with a certain action and dogs can actually memorize over 100 different facial expressions.

In fact humans over the years have learned a great detail from watching and observing animals, it was through the study of birds that people first got the idea to try and master the skies themselves. If man never saw a bird fly, do you think he would on his own get the idea to try, or even think it would be possible?

Many people may argue that what animals do is only out of instinct and not intelligence, but in the end, is there a real difference between the two? What good would it do man to have knowledge that did not teach him how to survive?

And I think there have been many different studies and stories have prove animals have displayed an intelligence beyond just pure instinct.

[hew2702]

I have always believed in the intelligence of animals, even if they may have different ways of thinking and viewing the world then humans do, I do not think that makes them stupid or inferior.

Indeed, animals are intelligent but not in the way humans are. Animals are inferior but that does not justify cruelty towards them (and eating them =/= cruelty). Animals do not have cognitive thinking abilities or logical thought processes like humans. Whether or not you think that makes them inferior does not make it so.


I do not believe that humans are superior to animals just because humans are different from animals. I think in fact all too often humans tend to forget that they themselves are just animals. Being a believer in evolution, we are nothing more then apes.

Technically, even by evolutionary standards, we are more than apes.

Ouch, evolution. A few holes there that can't be filled. Remember: Morphological similarities do not equal common descent.


In fact just about anyone who has ever owned a dog has had those moments when they could almost swear their dog knew just what they were thinking.

This argument for animal intelligence is faulty; apeal to emotion. And rather vague.


This is because humans are creatures of habit, and their body language can give away just what they are thinking or planning to do, without even realizing it. Even the slightest twitch of a muscle, arch of an eyebrow, particular smile is associated with a certain action and dogs can actually memorize over 100 different facial expressions.

"What they are thinking"? Are you not human? Ahh, a typing animal! It is true!

The ability to memorize =/= intelligence.


In fact humans over the years have learned a great detail from watching and observing animals, it was through the study of birds that people first got the idea to try and master the skies themselves. If man never saw a bird fly, do you think he would on his own get the idea to try, or even think it would be possible?

Because we got an idea from animals doesn't mean that they are equal or superior to us (and if that's not the argument you were trying to make, lemme know what was).

Oh, and thanks birdies for the idea of flight! I know you read this when we're not watching, being all secretly intelligent and all. ;)


Many people may argue that what animals do is only out of instinct and not intelligence, but in the end, is there a real difference between the two? What good would it do man to have knowledge that did not teach him how to survive?

Yes, there is a difference. Instict is not learned and usually unconsciously utilized while intelligence is the opposite. Both are rather useful.

And non-survival wise knowledge is useful for discussion. Are you saying that anything that doesn't deal with surviving doesn't merit learning?


And I think there have been many different studies and stories have prove animals have displayed an intelligence beyond just pure instinct.

Such as...

[B-Mental]

oh the zealots come out and play.

[Dark Muse]

Animals do not have cognitive thinking abilities or logical thought processes like humans. Whether or not you think that makes them inferior does not make it so

I am going to have to disagree with you there. There have been several examples of animals using some reasoniong skills. There are birds, though I cannot remeber the breed off the top of my head now, that have been documented, using sticks as a tool to dig out grubs from trees, that they cannot reach with thier own beaks.

Differnet types of monkey's have also been seen using very simple tools.

There have been studies done with octopi, in which a pickle jar, I think it was, with the lid screwed on had been dropped into a tank with an octopus, and the octopus, eventually figured out how to unscrew the jar.

African Gray Parrots can figure out how to do simple puzzles made for young childern. Like being able to figure out how to put a circle shape into a circular hole, and a square shape into a square hole and so on.

Or mice that can find thier way out of mazes.


Technically, even by evolutionary standards, we are more than apes.

Ouch, evolution. A few holes there that can't be filled. Remember: Morphological similarities do not equal common descent.

That may be true, but the point is, unless you think that humans are some alien speicis, then when it comes down do it, we are still just mamals.



Because we got an idea from animals doesn't mean that they are equal or superior to us (and if that's not the argument you were trying to make, lemme know what was).

The point of this argument was just to say that human beings have and can learn from animals, that animals do have something to each us, and much of what we have learned today we do owe to the animals from the animals. I wonder how much would human's have figured out on thier own, if they did not have an example to give them the idea?

I think that the fact that we have learned form animals and in a lot of ways it is becasue of them that society has advanced the way it did becasue of animals do make them our equals, even if the bird for example is not intelligence per sae just becasue it has given the gift of flight.

I think of it this way, if it were not for animals human beings would never have surived, human beings rely upon animals for thier surivial, and yet animals would more likely prosper more then suffer without human beings.


Yes, there is a difference. Instict is not learned and usually unconsciously utilized while intelligence is the opposite. Both are rather useful.


And non-survival wise knowledge is useful for discussion. Are you saying that anything that doesn't deal with surviving doesn't merit learning?...

I was not saying that ezactly, but, I look at it like this. Say one was to take a human being, and a wolf for example, and put them in the middle of the desert. And the human knew how to read and write, and spoke several different lanaugues, was good at mathamatics, and always wone triva games, but was unable to figure out how to find food and adapt to the knew enviroment and ultimately died.

While the wolf on the other end was able to figure out how to feed itself, and how to find water, and though did not have any of the knowlege the human had, continued to live and surrive.

In that situation could you truly say the human was surperior to the animal?

As to the last bit, well other then the examples I have in my first post, above, there have been countless stuides done on chimpanzees, teaching them sign langauge succesfully. There have also been many studies on dolphins judging thier intelligence. There have been expirments done that prove they can recogonize thier own reflection in a mirror for example.

And I have read countless stories about some amazing things animals do.

One of my faveorites that I can recall off the top of my head. I read this book about this pack of wolves that the author of the book had stuided and observed, and one of the accounts he gave in his book was about this hunter whom was getting too close to the den so the alpha male would move into the hunters vision to get his attention and started to weave in and out of the trees, every now and then reappearing to make sure the hunter could see him and followed, but at the same time staying out of the way of harm and danger by dissapearing from sight again, and once the hunter was far enough from the den, the wolf just slipped back into the trees and doubled back to the den.

It has also been documented that Hippos acutally give a vigil of silence to dead animals. It is a behavhior that has been caught on flim, in which when an animals has died, a group of hippos will come and and just gather around the animal and just sit there in silence for several miniutes, and then get up and walk away.

[Pendragon]

Superiority to the animals...we have souls and it is said that they do not. I do not question this, but I say this. Jesus said the road to heaven was to love God and love thy neighbor, defined as anyone who needs you. Do not animals love? Have not they given their lives to save humans they love? Greater love hath no man...I've got a feeling there'll be animals in heaven, and call me crazy. But they are innocents and have love and they will just be tossed? I can't see it. It's what we are supposed to become, innocent children full of love.

God Bless

Pendragon

[Wintermute]

Do not animals love? Have not they given their lives to save humans they love? Greater love hath no man...I've got a feeling there'll be animals in heaven, and call me crazy. But they are innocents and have love and they will just be tossed? I can't see it. It's what we are supposed to become, innocent children full of love.

God Bless

Pendragon

Hi Dale,

You are a classy Christian--a rarity. Well said. As an agnostic, I'm uncertain of a heaven. However, I am certain that if one exists, and my animals are not there, then I want no part of it. Nothing, save perhaps my wife, has given me so much pleasure and happiness as the animals I've been friends with over the years. A life without animals would be a life with fewer colors. And their existance is one of the few things that keeps me up here on the fence instead of joining my atheist friends. Thanks Again!

Doug

[Dark Muse]

Superiority to the animals...we have souls and it is said that they do not. I do not question this, but I say this. Jesus said the road to heaven was to love God and love thy neighbor, defined as anyone who needs you. Do not animals love? Have not they given their lives to save humans they love? Greater love hath no man...I've got a feeling there'll be animals in heaven, and call me crazy. But they are innocents and have love and they will just be tossed? I can't see it. It's what we are supposed to become, innocent children full of love.

God Bless

Pendragon

Well said, though I do come from a tradition that has always beleived that animals, and all living things do in fact have souls.

[hew2702]

Thanks Pen, I was going to get to that sooner or later. I don't know if we can say for sure whether or not there will be our pets and animals in heaven but I doubt that God wouldn't have some of his beautiful creations in His own domain.

The term "superior" is very broad. To actually determine our superiority/inferiority/equality to animals we must be specific about what aspect concerning them we are comparing. We are, indisputably, superior in our cognitive and thinking abilities. However, dogs are superior in their smelling abilities. I am guilty of using this term flippantly.

Oh yeah, and animals don't have souls. That's what separates us from them. We are made in the image of God.

[rosa]

the problem here is that as soon as we start talking about animals admitted in hell and heaven,about differences between animals and men,souls in animals etc we accept the existence of God and apply His set of values. If we accept that hell and heaven exist we might as well take our pets with us.Why not.I can see some potential problems.Would animals be exent from the distinction between good and bad? Would they need to understand? Would they have to fulfill different requirements from us. Does anyone know if Moses was given tables we do not know about,for animals?
Surely there should be a set of requirements somewhere. I refuse to believe that animals are all good.I would like to meet my dog in heaven I must say,but I am not so sure about my neighbours one.It is so fierce all the time
and I cannot walk down the lane when it is loose.I was hoping if heaven is there for it to be a relaxing place.

[Lote-Tree]

Are we superior to animal beings?


In many ways we are and many ways we are not. But either way we are one exceptional species on this planet. There is nothing like us.



We are indeed superior just because we are armed with weapons can can kill human beings in wars and battles? We are superior just because we can destroy nature and degrade ecological conditions?


We superior in the sense that we can conceive of things that do not exist.



Does our God protect us from being cruel and ruthless?


No. Cruel and ruthlessness is a choice you make.



Does man's belief in heaven and hell make us kinder and more generous to other living beings?


No. Not necessarily. But it gives us ideals to aspire, dreams to dream.


Are we morally better or ethically better than animal beings?


In many ways yes. And in many ways no.



Does our idea of God help us overcomie our brutalities?


Yes it can. It can also reinforce it. It is when you abandon both then see things are they are.



These questions always intrigue me.


As to billions of others. You are not alone.



I am indeed not a disbeliever either. I read the Gita, the Veda, the Bible, the Koran.


Read them, use them but see them for what they are.

[Wintermute]

. . . I was hoping if heaven is there for it to be a relaxing place.

Hi Rosa,

Yeah, it better be if we're gonna be there for infinity. The first hundred trillion years might wear on me if I'm all agitated. I must say, it would be nice to have a thread where folks could describe exactly what they think heaven will be like, in specifics--animals, trees, friends from earth, activities etc. I've always wondered if we will remember our time on this planet. It seems like our 80 years here would be so hard to recall after a million years, hehe, I barely remember what happend yesterday. Sorry for rambling, but this kind of stuff is so interesting to think about.

Peace,
Doug

[Wintermute]

In many ways we are and many ways we are not. But either way we are one exceptional species on this planet. There is nothing like us.

Hi Lote,

One could say this about any animal, no? The platapus comes to mind immediately...the zebra...oh, the hippo...how about the honey bee? I don't feel exceptional. Hey and how would our views change should we, as many expect we will, find intelligence elsewhere. What an amazing universe!

Cheers,
Doug

[Dark Muse]

We superior in the sense that we can conceive of things that do not exist.

Considering that humans cannot communicate with animals, and humans do not fully comprehend the way in which animals communicate with each other, and can only give a guess at what certain sounds, gestures, signals, etc... mean, and are completely baffled still be the communcation ablities of some animals, and there is no way to truly know what an animal is thinking, then how can anyone say with 100% certainty that humans are in fact the only ones that can conceive of things that do not exsist?

[Lote-Tree]

Hi Lote,
One could say this about any animal, no? The platapus comes to mind immediately...the zebra...oh, the hippo...how about the honey bee? I don't feel exceptional. Hey and how would our views change should we, as many expect we will, find intelligence elsewhere. What an amazing universe!
Cheers,
Doug

No not any animal. We are on a category on it's own. We have evolved from our animal nature to become an exceptional species. There is nothing like us on this planet.



Considering that humans cannot communicate with animals, and humans do not fully comprehend the way in which animals communicate with each other, and can only give a guess at what certain sounds, gestures, signals, etc... mean, and are completely baffled still be the communcation ablities of some animals, and there is no way to truly know what an animal is thinking, then how can anyone say with 100% certainty that humans are in fact the only ones that can conceive of things that do not exsist?


Because no other species on this planet has demonstrated even a rudimentary spirituality. We are species on a category of it's own. There nothing like this on this planet. We are indeed exceptional.

[Dark Muse]

What about the fact that it has been documented on more then once occasion that the hippopotumus gives what appears to be a vigil of silence, both for thier own dead, as well as other animals that have died?

Or birds that mate for life, and even after thier mate has died, will not for the rest of thier life choose another mate?

In a herd of Elephants when a new calf is born, the elephants will all acutaly gather around to greet the newborn, also they will pay resepct to thier dead by gently touching the bones, skulls and tusks of thier dead with thier tunks, or thier feet. They are also said to congerate around places where the bones of thier kin lay.

There are many other animals that are known to morun for the dead.

Even ants acutally have ant cemetaries, a desginated spot where they will carry all of thier dead comrades.

[Wintermute]

We have evolved from our animal nature to become an exceptional species. There is nothing like us on this planet.

You may be exceptional Lote-Tree. I am not. And thank goodness there is nothing else like us on this planet. If there were, I fear the planet would not be.

Just out of curiosity, are you a hunter?

Much Happiness,
Doug

[Lote-Tree]

What about the fact that it has been documented on more then once occasion that the hippopotumus gives what appears to be a vigil of silence, both for thier own dead, as well as other animals that have died?


We observe attachment behaviour in Animals but not spirituality.

[Lote-Tree]

You may be exceptional Lote-Tree. I am not.


Please no self-effacement here. Our "Exceptional" nature should give us the aspirations to become the Guardians of all life forms on this planet. It no way meant arrogance of our status.



And thank goodness there is nothing else like us on this planet. If there were, I fear the planet would not be.


If there was then we could have said Spirituality is nothing special.



Just out of curiosity, are you a hunter?

Much Happiness,
Doug

What makes you think that? I am kind of "Semi-Vegetarnian" :D

I am against hunting for sport! That is such a ridicoulus thing!

[Dark Muse]

We observe attachment behaviour in Animals but not spirituality.

I would say that a group of Hippos giving a vigil of silence to a wilderbeast that had died is more then attachment, being that the animals had no personal connection to the wilderbeast.

[Lote-Tree]

I would say that a group of Hippos giving a vigil of silence to a wilderbeast that had died is more then attachment, being that the animals had no personal connection to the wilderbeast.

Even far more complicated behaviour has been observed in the Animal world...but nothing close to spirituality.

[Dark Muse]

According to you, meerly becasue you are of a beleif system which refuses to belive that animals could have anything like spirutaly, but still there is no way you can say for 100% you know how all animals think and how they precivie the world, or why they do the things they do.

[Lote-Tree]

According to you, meerly becasue you are of a beleif system which refuses to belive that animals could have anything like spirutaly, but still there is no way you can say for 100% you know how all animals think and how they precivie the world, or why they do the things they do.

Not at all. I would love to see Spirituality in other animals because that would mean Spirituality is nothing special. My outlook is the scientific method. My "belief" has nothing to do with it.

[Dark Muse]

Forgive my misunderstand on that point

I just personaly think it is human arrogence for people to presume that there is no possible way that any other creature can have any notion of a spirituality of any sort, particuarly people do not understand even half as much about animals as they like to think they do.

And over the years there have been countless studies and observations of animals displaying emotions or behaviors, that people once thought were unique only to them.

So who is to say spirituality is not possible?

When it has already been proven that animals do act in varrious different ways and display varrious behaviors, that do seem to be about more then just thier own surivial.

[hew2702]

Dark-Muse, may I pose a question?

What, to you, gives animal life, or any life for the matter, a speciality that deserves protecting?

In other words, what makes life, any life, sacred at all?

(Anyone can answer this, BTW ;) )

[Dark Muse]

I think all life is sepcial in its own way, but I do not think that there needs to be a question of something being surperior over something else, and I do not think humans need to try and make themselves feel or look more special then any other living thing.

All living things have thier own speicial role to play, all are part of the ecosystem and all serve a role that help keep the planet living, if just one was completely removed, however small or great it may appear, then it can severly effect the rest of the natural order.

Nature is the most perfect and balanced system, and the reason the Earth suffers the problems it has now is becasue of man trying to work against nature becasue humans like to think themselves above Nature.

But without it, where would the human reace really be?

I think life shoudl be sacred for its own sake, and for the sake that all living things are childern of Nature, and not becasue of how humans catagorize varrious different forms of life.

As well it is part of my beleif system that all living things have souls.

[hew2702]

I think all life is sepcial in its own way, but I do not think that there needs to be a question of something being surperior over something else, and I do not think humans need to try and make themselves feel or look more special then any other living thing.

Agreed.


Nature is the most perfect and balanced system, and the reason the Earth suffers the problems it has now is becasue of man trying to work against nature becasue humans like to think themselves above Nature.

So is nature above us or equal or what? It would certainly seem that we are above nature for it is not even a being; nature is a vague term. Please define.


I think life shoudl be sacred for its own sake, and for the sake that all living things are childern of Nature, and not becasue of how humans catagorize varrious different forms of life.

That doesn't answer anything. Why is life sacred? We're all just meat-machines, why do we matter? And where did this "children of Nature" thing come from? Whos the father?


As well it is part of my beleif system that all living things have souls.

Are you New Age or something?

[Dark Muse]

So is nature above us or equal or what? It would certainly seem that we are above nature for it is not even a being; nature is a vague term. Please define.?

Well I belive in the Goddess Mother Nature, so for me Nature is a being, she is the Great Mother of All. For me the Goddess is the creator.

Though I am also Polythestic. And I do belive in a Father God or Sky God, in parnternhsip with the Mother Goddess, or Earth Goddess.


Are you New Age or something?

Actually the belief that all living things, not just humans, have souls, is a very old belief. As it happens, I am not New Age, but I am a Pagan.

[NikolaiI]

Hinduism upholds that all living things have souls, so it isn't new age.

They say we are above nature, but this is completely wrong. We are parts and parcels of nature, as nature is a thing greater than us. Just because nature doesn't write volumes of poetry or compose symphonies in our 12-tone system, doesn't mean anything at all. Nature provides us with everything, should we not serve Nature as a whole then, instead of only ourselves, and our own desires?

[Dark Muse]

Well put Nikolai

[NikolaiI]

Even far more complicated behaviour has been observed in the Animal world...but nothing close to spirituality.

It is not saying animals are necessarily spiritual, but think about how spending time in nature, and especially when its cold, is the best practice possible for spiritual enlightenment. When the environment is so pure, then the process and activities of the mind become a cascade of spirituality. Being such a connected part of nature is good in many ways; fresh air, as well. And you sleep better in nature, too. There are Asian nomadic people who travel more than 20 hours a day, and sleep only one hour a night and are completely refreshed after. They do yogi, and it is because of Yogic relaxation that it's so refreshing, but don't you think it would be more refreshing even without knowledge of the secrets of yoga?

Anywho, it would be wrong to say one way or the other. We have to accept that our terms, like spirituality, are inadquete to describe other species. Obvioulsy they are spiritual if we consider spiritual to be the highest mystic connection to nature. In American Indian spirituality, after all, animals have spirits and the spirit of animals and humans are much closer. Yet in religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism, the animal realm is a lower realm, since it's not spiritual enough to transcend out of all realms. So we can't know, and it wouldn't be honest to make a claim either way. It's just what we make of it, since, as there's no better way to put it; what we think, we think, right or wrong.

And finally, attaching 'complicated' to 'spiritual' doesn't make any sense to me.

[blazeofglory]

They do yogi, and it is because of Yogic relaxation that it's so refreshing, but don't you think it would be more refreshing even without knowledge of the secrets of yoga?

This line has a lot of substance in point of fact. Does not this corroborates the fact that animals too are spiritual? In fact they are more spiritual and in harmony with nature. We are really more villainously inclined and destroyer of nature.

In point of fact in nature there is more spirituality without having the knowledge of it indeed. Here we have more knowledge of it but less of it.

There is brutality in nature yet more in human societies. They have no religions yet they are less violence and no killings in the name religions.

Spirituality has little to do with religions and more to do with living spiritually in harmony with nature.

[Dark Muse]

Spirituality has little to do with religions and more to do with living spiritually in harmony with nature.

I completely agree with that, I think it is important to seperate spirituality from religion, for the two are not one in the same and do living independtly from each other.

[Pendragon]

Considering that humans cannot communicate with animals, and humans do not fully comprehend the way in which animals communicate with each other, and can only give a guess at what certain sounds, gestures, signals, etc... mean, and are completely baffled still be the communcation ablities of some animals, and there is no way to truly know what an animal is thinking, then how can anyone say with 100% certainty that humans are in fact the only ones that can conceive of things that do not exsist?Wonderful point. And if you believe in Noah, who do you think told the animals to get on the ark? You ever notice during natural disasters that birds, small animals, and others get out of the buildings that fall before the quake? No, this is true, and not fantasy. During earthquakes in Mexico some years ago, they noted: "The Quakes must be over, the birds are returning." Someone told them to get out. Jesus said not one sparrow falls without notice and God doesn't care for his animals? I don't think you coulld prove that.

[Dark Muse]

It is also true that during the Tusami that happend just last year, there were several people that survied becasue even before anyone knew what was happening, the animals began to head up for higher ground and the people followed suit with the animals.

[Pendragon]

And to care enough to warn about natural disasters so that they survive and not allow them the rest of a heaven is unthinkable to me.

[blazeofglory]

Wonderful point. And if you believe in Noah, who do you think told the animals to get on the ark? You ever notice during natural disasters that birds, small animals, and others get out of the buildings that fall before the quake? No, this is true, and not fantasy. During earthquakes in Mexico some years ago, they noted: "The Quakes must be over, the birds are returning." Someone told them to get out. Jesus said not one sparrow falls without notice and God doesn't care for his animals? I don't think you coulld prove that.

Of course presentiments exist and animals are more gifted with them. We human beings intellectualize things and have opinions about everything. This is called rationalization. Our opinions or thoughts create problems and of course animals have less of them and more of instincts and instincts are powerful elements and of course they lead us to understanding nature.

[B-Mental]

When it comes to the Tsunami...You realise that there are persons that were trying to get a worldwide tsunami warning system set up prior to the Dec.26th tsunami which was so devastating. I actually spent a lot of time studying Tsunamis in 2001, all along the Pacific coast of the US and part of British Columbia. When I heard of the Tsunami on Dec.26th, I was very sad, but I new that the devastation would only get worse and worse. I still say that memorials should be built for the dead and lost from that. I would make them in the shape of pyramids with local archetectural features. These would be a place that people can go in the event of a warning. Animals may be more attuned to the natural world, but humans have memory, and the ability to prepare for these disasters.

[Dark Muse]

Many different animals also have memory, this is something that has been well stuided and observred within animals.

And I have already spoken before about varrious different animals that have thier own rites of morning for the dead that are not so different then some of ours.

[Pendragon]

Many different animals also have memory, this is something that has been well stuided and observred within animals.

And I have already spoken before about varrious different animals that have thier own rites of morning for the dead that are not so different then some of ours.Example: Elephants according to Animal Planet, I think, it was on TV, they have something we don't: Generational Memory. An elephant will remember where a water hole is because their ancestor knew and they were born with the memory. They care for the sick as well as Dark's funeral rites.

[Etienne]

Example: Elephants according to Animal Planet, I think, it was on TV, they have something we don't: Generational Memory. An elephant will remember where a water hole is because their ancestor knew and they were born with the memory. They care for the sick as well as Dark's funeral rites.

I believe this refers to memestic memory, which is not a "genetical" transmission but a behavioral one, particularly through imitation. A non-biological evolution, if you want.

[Dark Muse]

Example: Elephants according to Animal Planet, I think, it was on TV, they have something we don't: Generational Memory. An elephant will remember where a water hole is because their ancestor knew and they were born with the memory. They care for the sick as well as Dark's funeral rites.

Elephants also have thier own version of day care, in which they will arrange playdates, which are done in shifts so each of the elephants get a bit of a break from taking care of the young and get some time to themselves.

[Pendragon]

I believe this refers to memestic memory, which is not a "genetical" transmission but a behavioral one, particularly through imitation. A non-biological evolution, if you want.You may be correct on the name, I saw the show again, it was on "News of the Weird", but the facts as given by the scientists who had been doing the study for a long time was that an elephant could find a water hole in the dry season even though they hadn't been alive last dry season but their grandmother was. They also dealt with the complex death rituals, how the bones are passed around, then restacked, the care for sick elephants even to rude medicine, and the kindergarten or nursery Dark mentions. A elephant that falls on the march is only abandoned after every effort is made to help them, even if delays the herd or endangers them.

[blazeofglory]

It is also true that during the Tusami that happend just last year, there were several people that survied becasue even before anyone knew what was happening, the animals began to head up for higher ground and the people followed suit with the animals.

In fact animals have more powerful and intense sensory organs than human beings, for they are closer to nature and they can read natural forces and happenings faster than us.