Poetic Work That Influenced Dante & Milton

[Zeruiah]

Hi,

I'm interested in reading classical poems by the authors Dante and Milton, and I think it would benefit myself to understand all of the preceeding works that have apparent influences to later works.

I know already that all of the epic poems owe much to Homer's Illiad and The Odyssey and Virgil's Aenid, but I'm not sure of any others past that point. I've heard Ovid's Metamorphoses has some influences, as well has perhaps Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. However, I'm not entirely sure about any of those, as they are merely nuances I've picked up from random parts of the internet.

So, do you know of any major literature/poems that impacted Dante and Milton's creative and stylistic thought while writing their masterpieces? Are they worth reading?

Thanks.

[stlukesguild]

Jeez... you're not asking for much, are you. Both Dante and Milton were very well read. Obviously both would have been more than familiar with the Bible, Homer... but more so Virgil, Ovid's Metamorphoses, and probably most of the classical Latin poets (Horace, etc...) Dante was almost there at the birth of the "modern" European lyric poem and was a contemporary of Guido Cavalcanti and was aware of the work of the Provençal poets, Arnaut Daniel, Bertrand de Born and Bernart de Ventadorn. He was certainly deeply influenced by the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine. I have also come across suggestions that Dante was more than aware of certain Arabic poets and philosophers. Milton, undoubtedly had not only the latin poets and the Bible as predecessors... but certainly Shakespeare as well.

[Zeruiah]

Can you elaborate on who the classical Latin poets Dante was inspired by were--namely the ones that I may easily find a Google Books result for?

[Etienne]

People always forget Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy, which is one of the most important work of literature in the history of Europe... and it was a great influence to Dante, one of his main influences, even. About Milton I don't know specifically... - quick search said he was.

The Consolation of philosophy has been translated by King Alfred, Chaucer and Queen Elisabeth I, among others.

[J.D.]

I haven't forgotten Boethius! Dante, like Boethius, was writing to console himself in the face of the wrongs committed against him by his enemies—to say, hey, I’m going to heaven to look upon God while you all rot in hell. There are definite parallels.

But don’t forget St. Augustine's Confessions, too. Based on my readings, I would say Dante's ascension mirrors the structure of the Confessions. Plus, Dante expresses figuratively what Augustine states more explicitly: the pagan philosophers and poets can only take you so far; to find the truth you need love as a guide and the light of God to see the way.

[AuntShecky]

What about the source for the history of the fallen angels
in Paradise Lost? That story is not in the Bible (I guess we
can suppose that Milton used the King James version which was "new" in his day.) Instead, Milton must've looked into the Apocrypal books or studied ancient Hebrew legends of the Talmud, etc.

[stlukesguild]

This is indeed interesting. The Fall of the rebel Angels and The Fall of Satan were popular themes in the visual arts well before Milton. Like the Christian concept of hell and Purgatory they seem to have been concepts that developed over the ages based upon the most slight of sources. The most cited one is the translation of Isaiah 14:

14:4 You will recite this parable about the king of Babylonia: How has the oppressor come to an end, the arrogance been ended?
14:10 They will all proclaim and say to you, "You also have been stricken as we were; you are compared to us.
14:11 Brought down to the nether-world were your pride and the tumult of your stringed instruments; maggots are spread out under you, and worms are your covers.
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O glowing morning star; been cut down to the ground O conqueror of nations?

The original Hebrew is taken to refer to the fall of the Babylonian kings due to their pride and Heylel or the "morning star" alludes to Venus. The entry in Wikipedia notes that "Jerome with the Greek Septuagint close at hand and familiarity with the pagan poetic traditions, translated Heylel as Lucifer in the Vulgate. This may also have been done as a pointed jab at a bishop named Lucifer, a contemporary of Jerome who argued to forgive those condemned of the Arian heresy." There is also another source to be found in the Qu'ran which narrates the Fall of Satan/Lucifer due to pride in refusing to bow to God's latest creation, Adam. Dante may have built upon both sources as well as traditional folk narrative and Church doctrine. Milton was almost certainly aware of the same.

[Etienne]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_angel

This website amazes me every time I use it...

[Zeruiah]

This is indeed interesting. The Fall of the rebel Angels and The Fall of Satan were popular themes in the visual arts well before Milton. Like the Christian concept of hell and Purgatory they seem to have been concepts that developed over the ages based upon the most slight of sources. The most cited one is the translation of Isaiah 14:

14:4 You will recite this parable about the king of Babylonia: How has the oppressor come to an end, the arrogance been ended?
14:10 They will all proclaim and say to you, "You also have been stricken as we were; you are compared to us.
14:11 Brought down to the nether-world were your pride and the tumult of your stringed instruments; maggots are spread out under you, and worms are your covers.
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O glowing morning star; been cut down to the ground O conqueror of nations?

The original Hebrew is taken to refer to the fall of the Babylonian kings due to their pride and Heylel or the "morning star" alludes to Venus. The entry in Wikipedia notes that "Jerome with the Greek Septuagint close at hand and familiarity with the pagan poetic traditions, translated Heylel as Lucifer in the Vulgate. This may also have been done as a pointed jab at a bishop named Lucifer, a contemporary of Jerome who argued to forgive those condemned of the Arian heresy." There is also another source to be found in the Qu'ran which narrates the Fall of Satan/Lucifer due to pride in refusing to bow to God's latest creation, Adam. Dante may have built upon both sources as well as traditional folk narrative and Church doctrine. Milton was almost certainly aware of the same.

Speaking of the Vulgate translation, do you think it will make a difference which translation I read? Dante definitely would have read the Vulgate translation while Milton would have read the Authorized King James version. Are there any irrefutable theological differences in the two I should note?

[stlukesguild]

Of course you might remember that Milton was more than fluent in Latin himself... actually composing any number of works in the ancient tongue.

[Zeruiah]

But it says in Wikipedia that Milton did in fact read the Authorized Version of the Bible. I'm often skeptical about Wikipedian articles, but I see no motive in misleading anyone over something as trivial as that.

What do you think? Is it likely Milton read the Vulagate version as well?

[JBI]

I am sure Milton had read at least the new testament in the original.

[Kafka's Crow]

One of the main influences on Dante's Inferno is the medieval Arabic writer, ibn i Arabi. The ideas of the divine intelligence and mercy as female (Beatrice) are from ibn i Arabi. On the other hand, the Islamic tenant of 'Mairaaj' or the Ascension of Mohammad where he went through both heaven and hell and saw the inhabitants of both places and returned within moments of earthly time is also a great influence. Naturally he was influenced by Virgil and Cavalcanti etc but he is the last major exponent of the influence of oriental thought on the West.

Milton, on the other hand, is more 'neo' classical. Although the Homeric simile shows itself again and again in 'Paradise Lost' still his main influences are Latin and English. Still he was too much of a revolutionary to be very influenced by any one figure among his predecessors, ''Things unattempted yet in prose or rime''. Although the Koran refers to the Satan's disobedience and Adam's expulsion, the Old Testament devotes first three chapters of Genesis to the Fall:


23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Thus Milton's main source was the Old Testament. I think I read somewhere that Milton could read Hebrew. I could be wrong but he did have enormous intellectual resources at his disposal. As far as the Battle in Heavens is concerned, maybe he had to create the episode as such depictions are among the traditions of epic poetry.

[JCamilo]

For understanding Dante, one good attempt is reading Il Convivio where he explains himself and it is filled with references that he used.

[sherlock]

i would read the Bible

[J.D.]

[QUOTE=Kafka's Crow;509321]One of the main influences on Dante's Inferno is the medieval Arabic writer, ibn i Arabi. The ideas of the divine intelligence and mercy as female (Beatrice) are from ibn i Arabi.

[J.D.]

One of the main influences on Dante's Inferno is the medieval Arabic writer, ibn i Arabi. The ideas of the divine intelligence and mercy as female (Beatrice) are from ibn i Arabi.

I'm sorely underread in Arabic lit.--really I've only read the Koran and the Arabian Nights--but I do wonder about this. While not divine per se, Lady Philosophy in Boethius functions much as Beatrice functions in the Comedy, while St. Augustine's mother does the same in his Confessions. Each lady helps her wrongheaded and confused author ascend, literally or figuratively, from the depths of despair, sin, or hell. So I always thought of Beatrice as descended, at least in part, from these two earlier examples. Thoughts on this?

[JCamilo]

It is not wrong to say that a strong influence of arabian literature exists, but I would bet in something else. For once, Beatrice was crafted before the Comedy and Dante explains that the allegorical meaning of her is : Philosophy.

[Kafka's Crow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_As%C3%ADn_Palacios
ibn i Arabi wrote about the purifying effects of physical love Tarjamaan i Ashwaq which can be translated as 'The Interpretation of Passions' (correct me if I am wrong, gave up Arabi after completing my BA in 1989). Mary M Anderson cites this work as one of the influences on Dante. Still, we must learn to appreciate the fact that in spite of living in the 'Dark Age' the medieval intellectuals were more open-minded and there was more giving and taking of ideas going on than we are led to believe. Medieval Age was not just about crusades, inquisitions and conquests by the sword.

[Kafka's Crow]

It is not wrong to say that a strong influence of arabian literature exists, but I would bet in something else. For once, Beatrice was crafted before the Comedy and Dante explains that the allegorical meaning of her is : Philosophy.

Sorry but the sentence in bold has been troubling me ever since I read it. Care to elaborate it, it might lead to another useful discussion.

[mortalterror]

In his introduction to The Annotated Milton, Burton Raffel mentions the influence of Edmund Spenser's The Fairy Queen, and makes (in my estimation) a somewhat weaker case for Marlowe's Doctor Faustus. I can't remember where, but I believe I read somewhere that Milton knew Latin, Hebrew, and Greek. He would have read the Bible, obviously, the apocrypha, Virgil, Homer, and probably most if not all of the classics known in his time.

Dante obviously read Virgil. I believe he mentions Cicero and Statius in the poem itself. He knew all of his contemporary troubadour and provencal poets. Dorothy Sayers said somewhere in the notes to her translation that he'd read Aquinus. I think something was mentioned about Augustine. He puts Aristotle in the realm of the blessed pagans, and makes him king of philosophers, so I'm guessing he liked Aristotle. The Inferno is a mass mixing of Christian and Pagan symbolism and mythology, but he could have gotten much of that from Ovid.

One of the things that really interests me about poets like Dante is that they had to know something in addition to knowing poetry to write what they wrote. You can see it in the differences between his juvenilia The New Life and his more mature work The Divine Comedy. When writing the first, he wouldn't have known much more than the art itself and whatever life had given him up to then. But during a space of twenty years between the two works he gets married, has kids, fights in battles, governs a city, is exiled, turns to theology, and philosophy. Justinian makes an appearance in the Paradiso so I'm guessing he was interested in history. All of this experience and knowledge informs the new work and makes it markedly superior.

Milton was a good poet, and a well educated man before all of the trouble with his wife and daughters, before his blindness, but I wonder if it wasn't all of that life experience and struggle which put him over the top. Like Dante he was politically active in an age of civil war, writing his pamphlets, making difficult decisions about religion versus state power. There's definitely an X factor at play here, and I don't think it's Wheaties.