God or Chaos? I can not say.

[blazeofglory]

I raise some questions, fragmentary questions. There are no links there and they are independent questions. They are not sequential. Add your questions and answers too if you have any.

I believe that questions embed answers too.

************************************************** ******

Torn between these two disparities I am in a dilemma. Godliness and ungodliness
that something very intriguingly questioning.

Since my babyhood these questions have been stretching my mindscape and of course I am still unanswered.

I have read many religious texts, Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity, Islam, Taoism and many other theologies, philosophies, yet I am not fully convinced about their statements.
Of course there are some convincing accounts or testimonials that approbate this fact, the fact about the existence of God or some supreme power in the Vedas yet they are not fully reliable.

I turned to science and read Einstein, quantum physics, and many other scientific assertions.

Yet scientific facts or theories are simply a handful of sands and the question of the whole cosmos is a vast sandmass stretched infinitely in the limitless desert.

This universe is really mysterious and it is unfathomable and never scientists can know the depth of the secret of the universe. For the universe keeps on expanding infinitely.

Some argue just because the universe is very vast and limitless and that is why they assert God's existence and this too is not a convincing proposition.

All create a God of their own, and they carve out images of their own, in the shape and form that bear a resemble to both.

I like to be honest that I live through varying opinions. At times I believe not in the Gods theologies or mythologies describing His characteristics, but as a fountain of universal consciousness and at times only chaos.

I just like questioning more and more to plunder deeper and deeper of course.
I keep on reading more and more. Now what appeal to me more are Zen, Sufism, Taoism, the Vedas. These are some sources I find more credible and convincing.

I am amazed indeed at everything in the universe.

I am also amazed at the fact that we all are mortals and yet feel as if we are immortal and keep on living with hope and aspiration until we take last breathe.

Creation is simply amazing. The question we are here is also amazing. Are not you amazed at everything around you and the fact that you exist?

[Ludmila607]

God idea always implicate a sort of teleology and pree-established order.
God means order, will, sense.
Chaos means dis-order, lost energy ,non sense.
My life is chaos.That is why I am looking for God.

[blazeofglory]

My life is chaos.That is why I am looking for God.[/QUOTE]

I like this expression immensely. There is beauty in your expression.

[dramasnot6]

It is not difficult to feel overwhelmed at the vast amount of knowledge and questions available to us.
Sometimes studying why people look to religion is even more fascinating than studying religion itself.

[blazeofglory]

It is not difficult to feel overwhelmed at the vast amount of knowledge and questions available to us.
Sometimes studying why people look to religion is even more fascinating than studying religion itself.

Of course this is true, and to see human interests in religions. To see devotees and how they surrender is really a matter of fascination.

We stick to religions and this fad continued over generations. Faith has no scientific foundation and yet it interests people immensely.

Faith is something that endures time. Certainly we are not the same way hinging on faith the way our ancestors did in point of fact. But faith goes on and on.

I am of course well read in philosophy and science more than my ancestors. Yet I am a believer and indeed can not do away with it. It is in my genes too. The whole backdrop conditions me to be a believer.

[mazHur]

I am amazed indeed at everything in the universe.

I am also amazed at the fact that we all are mortals and yet feel as if we are immortal and keep on living with hope and aspiration until we take last breathe.

Creation is simply amazing. The question we are here is also amazing. Are not you amazed at everything around you and the fact that you exist?


Blaze

This is the proof that you do believe in a Creator, a God. The holy Quran expressly states that one should not be amazed at the disparity he witnesses in this world,,,because that's a manifestation of the Supreme Being or God as we call him.

take care

[blazeofglory]

Blaze

This is the proof that you do believe in a Creator, a God. The holy Quran expressly states that one should not be amazed at the disparity he witnesses in this world,,,because that's a manifestation of the Supreme Being or God as we call him.

take care

Somewhere I find nuances of Sufism in your ideas. They are really rich in ideas.

I am really fond of Sufi ideas.

[mazHur]

Somewhere I find nuances of Sufism in your ideas. They are really rich in ideas.

I am really fond of Sufi ideas.


Blaze, I am not a Sufi but amazingly I have heard many a people say I am--atleast a 'hidden sufi !'

Sufism is interesting in that it deals with the nourishment and refinement of soul.
You may like to check out this site, http://www.sufipsychology.org/page_aboutSPA.htm

I have translated this web page pro bono into Urdu language at the request of an American Professor Sufi friend . I hope you will find it intersting,,,,I did.

above all, the very thing that impressed me is the personal character of the Sufi friend itself, She is a great lady, a pychologist, a Sufi, a good friend and a writer of several books.

[NikolaiI]

Blaze, I was thinking of writing you as I had some more things to share with you; but you know already what's in my mind and meditations; you've described it as sublimating yourself. If you are not at peace, and if you do not understand something, then you should take your own advice and set all the misconceptions aside; as you say let ideologies clash and live the life that you live, knowing as you do that you will come to Heaven by it. I would recommend reading the Gita as much as possible-- I know you've read it, long, long before I was ever aware of it and you probably have read more of it than I have; but I just recommend reading it again, very carefully, and with as new of ideas as you can possibly think of. Focus on liberation and transcension. Use the one-pointed meditation from Buddhism, and Krishna consciousness to aim your hands and heart at the Godhead, and then you will be rewarded with bliss and knowledge. If you can take away all misperceptions, Blaze, then you will see reality as it truly is; as a passing dream. Nothing in the dream will not pass; it is all here one time, and gone another; we our selves are not bound by time, we just view things from this reference because of the way we were taught. Since nothing in the dream will not pass; truly there is nothing that is not of the nature of void. This is explained in the Heart-Sutra; which is as fantastic to understand-- equally, exactly, equivicably-- as our own nature. There is nothing to be enlightened, no enilghtenment, and importantly, there was never anything to be attached to in the first place. In the ultimate view there is no duality and no time. If we can relax and feel our being, this is much more than words. If we arrive at the ultimate view, we are at peace unknown by any except those also at the same view. When you make this kind of achievement, which requires many, many, many hours of meditation; you will be struck by it like nothing else. You will be completely at peace because you are situated in perfect knowledge and happiness. This stage at the ultimate view is closely connected with having trust in your mind; cf. Inscription on Trust in the Mind, by Seng Ts'an. There is nothing more to know. It is only peace and happiness which we strive for; and these can only be attained when we stop striving. When we are situated perfectly in meditation, we're not disturbed by any of the passing dream. When we see things with perfect understanding, we know what their true forms are. When we realize that things are not difficult or easy, then we know that simple knowledge of a form suffices; and if we examine everything we know, then we realize that we know all the forms sufficiently and perfectly, and when we realize this, we have perfect trust in the mind. Of all idealists one thing is shared; the desire for a perfect, peaceful existence. The realists and other differing philosophers say so much peace makes them sick to the stomach, and it is too peaceful for them; but we answer-- what do you ask for? Crime? We say let there be no crime and you say you would not like it so. Well then let there be this; let there be no crime at all, and then let there be one crime, and let it happen to you! For we are not bored when we have time, and when we read and learn we realize that we are always learning, and how can we have more knowledge at one time or another? We've come out of the dream at various intervels, but known we've had to go back into it. Since the ultimate view is that there is no duality; take this to your heart and trust yourself above those who teach false teachings.

As to whether the dream is of Visnu or it is an atheistic universe, whether the ground we walk on is the manfiestation of the mind of Krishna, from his Visnu expansions, or whether it's all materialistic, and spiritualty is just something that evolved out of nature and humanity-- let others debate this, who cannot be happy learning and teaching higher things.

And I actually challenge you to make a side; be convinced whether it is a God's creation or not. However are you sure it is chaos if it is not God? Since God is a thing we argue about in our minds; look at nature, look at the cosmos, look at the Earth before and after humans and tell me this is chaos-- take humans out, this is not chaos; but a beautiful synchronated world, an ecosystem, everything connected and related and affecting everything else; it is not chaos, it is a world of very sublime beauty; and Earth has described perhaps very beautifully and poetically in the science fiction of Douglas Adams, in a story as a Computer, a vast computer where the organic elements themselves are part of the matrix. There is no mention of God, but you would call such a matrix chaos? No, it is not chaos, it is a matrix.

As you can see in my signature and also the beginning of this post, I talk of God, and the Gita, and Heaven. This is because I feel I have discovered something very valuable; spiritual attainment of the highest order. Yet I do not believe that even the most sublime things I have discovered about aiming my heart and mind and hands at the Godhead, even this, does not preclude the possibility of a Godless matrix. Much talk, but not much worry. Blaze, don't you see what is sublime in those who are well-convicted? I am very convicted; beyond convicted-- anything else would be the wrong way to be!! I remind you that 1% of spiritual progress to the Supreme cannot be lost. I have perhaps attained 1%-- now, at some point, I will be attacked by demons and perhaps faced with gross grotesqueries and harassments and temptation will be high. But by then we have gotten far beyond whether there is a God or not. This is why I would not even think about this in such times of distress or conflict. I rather will be convicted both in my devotion and love for the Godhead, which is transcendental in all respects; as well as-- perhaps somewhat slightly less-- convicted in my belief that I cannot truly know the difference between a God's universe or a Godless matrix; but devoted still to the transcendental nature and body of Godhead. If you cannot be convicted like I am, then I advise you to be convicted of the existence of Krishna, and the idea that the material universe is part of Krishna's Visnu expansions. This is an exceptional view. Work towards the Supreme. But think;; how can you make any progress in this world if you do not trust yourself?? So try to trust yourself, because the moment you begin to, at this moment all the false teachings begin to unravel of themselves.

[crazefest456]

1If you can take away all misperceptions, Blaze, then you will see reality as it truly is; as a passing dream. Nothing in the dream will not pass; it is all here one time, and gone another; we our selves are not bound by time, we just view things from this reference because of the way we were taught. Since nothing in the dream will not pass; truly there is nothing that is not of the nature of void.

2In the ultimate view there is no duality and no time. If we can relax and feel our being, this is much more than words. If we arrive at the ultimate view, we are at peace unknown by any except those also at the same view. When you make this kind of achievement, which requires many, many, many hours of meditation; you will be struck by it like nothing else. You will be completely at peace because you are situated in perfect knowledge and happiness. This stage at the ultimate view is closely connected with having trust in your mind; cf. Inscription on Trust in the Mind, by Seng Ts'an. There is nothing more to know.

3It is only peace and happiness which we strive for; and these can only be attained when we stop striving. When we are situated perfectly in meditation, we're not disturbed by any of the passing dream. When we see things with perfect understanding, we know what their true forms are. When we realize that things are not difficult or easy, then we know that simple knowledge of a form suffices; and if we examine everything we know, then we realize that we know all the forms sufficiently and perfectly, and when we realize this, we have perfect trust in the mind.

We've come out of the dream at various intervels, but known we've had to go back into it. Since the ultimate view is that there is no duality; take this to your heart and trust yourself above those who teach false teachings.

But think;; how can you make any progress in this world if you do not trust yourself?? So try to trust yourself, because the moment you begin to, at this moment all the false teachings begin to unravel of themselves.

:thumbs_up I love these ideas, but I haven't read the Gita (yet) or studied it at all, so please don't mind if I ask a few questions:
1 How about the reality of our "selfs"? Isn't that grounded in the misperceptions we are born into? If so, how do we get out of this imprisonment?

2 Can the truth of mind be sorted out through the other mess that is programmed in our brains (or hearts)?
3 I'm sort of scared about not striving for peace and happiness, because I feel like I'm sinning (in a way) that I'm not trying to put my thoughts into action...Will peace just come to us? I really don't trust my actions, at all infact! So do I have to do things without thinking about its effects, or something else?

Maybe I misunderstood all this; now I'm planning to read these texts, to make sense out of everything.

[mazHur]

:thumbs_up I love these ideas, but I haven't read the Gita (yet) or studied it at all, so please don't mind if I ask a few questions:
1 How about the reality of our "selfs"? Isn't that grounded in the misperceptions we are born into? If so, how do we get out of this imprisonment?

2 Can the truth of mind be sorted out through the other mess that is programmed in our brains (or hearts)?
3 I'm sort of scared about not striving for peace and happiness, because I feel like I'm sinning (in a way) that I'm not trying to put my thoughts into action...Will peace just come to us? I really don't trust my actions, at all infact! So do I have to do things without thinking about its effects, or something else?

Maybe I misunderstood all this; now I'm planning to read these texts, to make sense out of everything.

you may like to find some answers to you questions here::

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:ysqGyyBCWYAJ:www.pu.edu.pk/phill/alhikmat/PDF-files/1Ontology%2520of%2520Self%2520-%2520Absar%2520Ahmad.pdf+self%2Biqbal&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=29&gl=pk&client=firefox-a

or here:
http://www.pu.edu.pk/phill/alhikmat/PDF-files/1Ontology%20of%20Self%20-%20Absar%20Ahmad.pdf.


Man is created to strive and without striving it is not possible for him to find peace and happiness. Meditation does help men to curtail chatter in their brains but every one doesn't possess the ability to observe the intricacies of the process.

[crazefest456]

Man is created to strive and without striving it is not possible for him to find peace and happiness. Meditation does help men to curtail chatter in their brains but every one doesn't possess the ability to observe the intricacies of the process.

thanks for the links...I'll get to it tonight.
Does meditation really need to be intricate? I mean, I start fazing out at the most weirdest (ok, WORST:) ) times and then start meditating about everything. Anything could make me react this way-- too much anger or worry, or annoyance. I'd be walking and doing my necessary duties in school, but at the same time, my mind wasn't even there. I was meditating the whole time. I had to explain to my friends in one sentence to bear with my odd behavior because I needed that. While everyone was in action, my face had this smirk plastered over, pretending to acknowledge my reality here.
But since I allowed myself to become peaceful (for that week), didn't that ultimately make me use meditation to strive for that peacefulness?
Is this even meditation?

[NikolaiI]

Thanks for responding!

Mazhur, Meditation helps women and children, too. ;)

Craze, you are very lucky actually to have experienced that! I've only experienced that once, that I can really remember, and it's fairly recently. Of course I meditate every night and I've had a lot of progress, etc...but being in that kind of continuous meditative trance just briefly, anyway, I know what you mean I think.

To answer your questions:


I love these ideas, but I haven't read the Gita (yet) or studied it at all, so please don't mind if I ask a few questions:
1 How about the reality of our "selfs"? Isn't that grounded in the misperceptions we are born into? If so, how do we get out of this imprisonment?

I have referred once or twice to our nature being a buddha-nature. For those who think Buddhism is an atheistic or even (gosh) nihlistic "religion"---in other words...er... a bad thing... what can I say?-- anywho, forget them, the rest is directed at Craze.

Anywho, so I refer to our nature as being buddha-nature. B-Mental's mentioned auras; there's a lot of stuff in this world I know nothing about.

To your question of the selves, I say that our true nature is buddha-nature. Now, this term, buddha-nature, is something so large it is at the ends of my imagination. What is a buddha? It is one who enlightens an entire age; the entire world at a particular time, perhaps. It is a boddhisattva, and one who perhaps has spent time as a god or demigod. This is very extravagant and fantastic, I know. It is larger than what we see ourselves as, and its realization is far away from what we know exists. However, this is an indicator of its existence. The sublime and the Supersoul exist; because as we can see and observe them, so are they too observing us. Existing as our full realized self-nature, in one philosophical sense, is as great, as sublime, as fully realizing our nature in any sense that we can observe it in. Realizing our nature in a physical way, with our actions, seems so distant to us because we are so constantly fixated in a conditioning which prevents us from viewing it. If we really observe our selves, our physical bodies, however, don't we see that we are matter, the same as energy, and that our realization would be into pure light?

--pardon me, I hit 'enter' before I was through. I'll erase this part and re-save when this is through.

2 Can the truth of mind be sorted out through the other mess that is programmed in our brains (or hearts)?
3 I'm sort of scared about not striving for peace and happiness, because I feel like I'm sinning (in a way) that I'm not trying to put my thoughts into action...Will peace just come to us? I really don't trust my actions, at all infact! So do I have to do things without thinking about its effects, or something else?

Maybe I misunderstood all this; now I'm planning to read these texts, to make sense out of everything.

[B-Mental]

Well just to briefly comment on the aura...My father had an aura that others remarked about, but he and I experienced things which could have been either aura. I recognise it most especially around street lights and animals. Anyways, I joined the internal struggle for purity of mind and action, to encourage and try to never discourage. This enhances my my aura... something that animals recognise.

Meditation for me is effortless, and a wonderful passage of time. I release all of my pure energy into my aura (this really takes a long time to learn, don't get discouraged) and then I begin to "ride the white lightning" I experience my aura as it expands, when I recognise that something has felt my aura I blink (internally). When some thing recognises my blink, it will blink back. I recognise this intersection of auras as an "electric" flash.

The first time I experienced this was on the ocean, and it is like nothing you can imagine. The abundance of life beneath the surface that lives there flashes you like a brilliant cascade of flashbulbs (with differing intensities). When I can, I push my aura through this and expand it further. Ok, now I'm going to be categorised as cuckoo. These experiences are after years of attempted purification and meditation. I know that I will never be truly pure, but I will continue to strive for this.


Now back to the topic, I know that I would never have achieved any level of meditation without first overcoming my questions of faith...it is pinnacle to belief. I do believe that there is some Supreme being. As for the title....Science has found order in Chaos, and this lends to a further belief in the Supreme hand involved in everything.

[NikolaiI]

Okay, this is the second part of my post above. I might as well post it here.


2 Can the truth of mind be sorted out through the other mess that is programmed in our brains (or hearts)?

Yes truth can be understood, and it can be helpful in understanding and growth. I will use the term 'mind' in this discussion, rather than brain; as I use it I mean either 'mind' or 'heart-mind.' I do not think that mind and brain are the exact same; if for no other reason than that mind is a different word. For instance, "areas of the mind" would probably mean something mental, where as "areas of the brain" would probably be physical; the phsysical regions of the brain.

It is quite interesting you say "truth of mind" because I think the mind is in fact something very sublime, and so then the truth of it is also sublime. Now from my experience, through different means we can understand the true nature of the objects of the mind with certainty. The great Buddhist truth, what is described in the Heart Sutra, or Sutra of Perfect Wisdom, is that the nature of all form is void. Still this truth as expressed is a form itself; and so, though it might be revered as a gem of self-illuminating wisdom, its nature is void the same as everything else. Although I don't know what that tells us! Anyhow, this seems to be exactly what Plato was saying; and Plato says that when we see things as empty, as they are, then we escape from the "cave of ignorance." Ooh, ominus sounding. :)

A great way to get past bad conditioning is to actively practice better habits. A lot of praise is reserved throughout religious texts and society too for those who have broken out of their conditioning. The Buddha says this, that one who is committed to meditation, and meditates for an hour a day, is doing a good job of this, and is on the path, or advancing on the path, to liberation. Don't neglect to correct habits of thinking. After all, thinking and acting are very closely related. And don't forget your spirit, too, I suppose.

Anywho, one absolutely sure-fire way to change all conditioning is to change environments. Just a thought.


Does meditation really need to be intricate? I mean, I start fazing out at the most weirdest (ok, WORST ) times and then start meditating about everything. Anything could make me react this way-- too much anger or worry, or annoyance. I'd be walking and doing my necessary duties in school, but at the same time, my mind wasn't even there. I was meditating the whole time. I had to explain to my friends in one sentence to bear with my odd behavior because I needed that. While everyone was in action, my face had this smirk plastered over, pretending to acknowledge my reality here.

Like I said before, this indicates to me a particular experience which I recognize, as I've had it.

As for too much worry, anger and annoyance, I understand; it's nothing to fret about. In fact you should not avoid it but use everything you can as fuel for your understanding, a lesson to learn from. Don't be upset by your afflictive emotions; if you reject them, then you'll worry even more. Don't feel guilty over not striving for peace. Keep striving for peace, you're intelligenct and you have a lot of potential, and what knowledge you've attained, what you have to share now is very valuable! If you think knowledge and meditation will help you in your quest for peace, pursue them also.

Back to your post (above quote); meditation is good to help for a peaceful mind. Studying buddhism and aikido, I learned a small amount about the mind being at peace--- the mind at peace turns slowly. It is disturbed by nothing. The agitated mind is disturbed by things it thinks are external. It is good to be at peace, peace of mind and centered in meditation, but this could be difficult in a roomful of noisy people. The Buddhists talk about big mind, and small mind. Big mind is when the mind relates to nothing, or to the unchanging eternals. Small mind is when the mind relates to the things it confronts, it observes, as externals, which it thinks it is inside. If the mind relates to these-- or takes its reality from them; it is small mind. If it relates to none of it, it is big mind; it is not disturbed by phenomena, and it turns slowly, and is well focused, and is not distracted, but stays on its target. This would be related to one-pointed concentration, which I find a parallel in Krishna consciousness.


But since I allowed myself to become peaceful (for that week), didn't that ultimately make me use meditation to strive for that peacefulness?
Is this even meditation?
3 I'm sort of scared about not striving for peace and happiness, because I feel like I'm sinning (in a way) that I'm not trying to put my thoughts into action...Will peace just come to us? I really don't trust my actions, at all infact! So do I have to do things without thinking about its effects, or something else?
Maybe I misunderstood all this; now I'm planning to read these texts, to make sense out of everything.

It is said that the true view is that meditation is not different from non-meditation, and inaction not different from action. Not the same, but not different. Not two, and not one. If this appeals to you, pursue it. I can tell you I think it's one of the highest truths. Non-duality. The smallest is at one with the largest. Time is an illusion. Things of this nature. Interdependence of all living things. These are Buddhist ideals but the last, interdependence, is a precept of Unitarianism, for example. I wish you luck and I look forward greatly to your replies. May you be happy.


Well just to briefly comment on the aura...My father had an aura that others remarked about, but he and I experienced things which could have been either aura. I recognise it most especially around street lights and animals. Anyways, I joined the internal struggle for purity of mind and action, to encourage and try to never discourage. This enhances my my aura... something that animals recognise.

Meditation for me is effortless, and a wonderful passage of time. I release all of my pure energy into my aura (this really takes a long time to learn, don't get discouraged) and then I begin to "ride the white lightning" I experience my aura as it expands, when I recognise that something has felt my aura I blink (internally). When some thing recognises my blink, it will blink back. I recognise this intersection of auras as an "electric" flash.

The first time I experienced this was on the ocean, and it is like nothing you can imagine. The abundance of life beneath the surface that lives there flashes you like a brilliant cascade of flashbulbs (with differing intensities). When I can, I push my aura through this and expand it further. Ok, now I'm going to be categorised as cuckoo. These experiences are after years of attempted purification and meditation. I know that I will never be truly pure, but I will continue to strive for this.


Now back to the topic, I know that I would never have achieved any level of meditation without first overcoming my questions of faith...it is pinnacle to belief. I do believe that there is some Supreme being. As for the title....Science has found order in Chaos, and this lends to a further belief in the Supreme hand involved in everything.

However, this is an indicator of its existence. The sublime and the Supersoul exist; because as we can see and observe them, so are they too observing us. Existing as our full realized self-nature, in one philosophical sense, is as great, as sublime, as fully realizing our nature in any sense that we can observe it in. Realizing our nature in a physical way, with our actions, seems so distant to us because we are so constantly fixated in a conditioning which prevents us from viewing it. If we really observe our selves, our physical bodies, however, don't we see that we are matter, the same as energy, and that our realization would be into pure light?

From my post above. :D

[crazefest456]

Yes truth can be understood, and it can be helpful in understanding and growth. I will use the term 'mind' in this discussion, rather than brain; as I use it I mean either 'mind' or 'heart-mind.' I do not think that mind and brain are the exact same; if for no other reason than that mind is a different word. For instance, "areas of the mind" would probably mean something mental, where as "areas of the brain" would probably be physical; the phsysical regions of the brain.
yeah, that makes sense...



It is quite interesting you say "truth of mind" because I think the mind is in fact something very sublime, and so then the truth of it is also sublime. Now from my experience, through different means we can understand the true nature of the objects of the mind with certainty. The great Buddhist truth, what is described in the Heart Sutra, or Sutra of Perfect Wisdom, is that the nature of all form is void. Still this truth as expressed is a form itself; and so, though it might be revered as a gem of self-illuminating wisdom, its nature is void the same as everything else. Although I don't know what that tells us! Anyhow, this seems to be exactly what Plato was saying; and Plato says that when we see things as empty, as they are, then we escape from the "cave of ignorance." Ooh, ominus sounding. :)
Yes, the truth of mind should be sublime because God, when creating us, breathed his spirit into the human 'container'...I guess that's why humans can have this mystic relationship with the creation-- how we could cure ourselves with our will power, and the "aura" B-Mental was referring to. I'm not saying that we have a divine relationship with God, I mean, we are his creation and that's it. But the actual truth might just be beyond us, that we (normally) just keep chasing the semblance of truth...I guess that's why I believe in immortality of the universe (not neccesarily the physical one, I mean the extra-dimensional universes...yay, time travel! :p ). I guess we're always taught to chase the 'deeper' meaning in literature, that we forget the somewhat bigger picture.



A great way to get past bad conditioning is to actively practice better habits. A lot of praise is reserved throughout religious texts and society too for those who have broken out of their conditioning. The Buddha says this, that one who is committed to meditation, and meditates for an hour a day, is doing a good job of this, and is on the path, or advancing on the path, to liberation. Don't neglect to correct habits of thinking. After all, thinking and acting are very closely related. And don't forget your spirit, too, I suppose.

Anywho, one absolutely sure-fire way to change all conditioning is to change environments. Just a thought.
I feel more and more embarrased of my giving up the habits that I'm supposed to keep: mainly, worship. I guess it's hard for me to stick to consistently praying (which consists of a balance of physical exercise, mental focus, and spiritual sincerity)...It's really difficult to do the last thing when I'm usually distracted and wish that my time to worship would end soon-- ignorant thoughts that take a toll on my other habits, like eating, studying..etc.
And you pointed out (in the other thread)that asking was important, and I realized that I was worried for the wrong reasons. God would love it more if someone, who was previously down right filthy in his actions and ungrateful, and would just ask Him for one more chance, one more way to fix this, to let him come back on the road to goodness. I was just fooling myself into 'independence' from anyone else.



Like I said before, this indicates to me a particular experience which I recognize, as I've had it.

As for too much worry, anger and annoyance, I understand; it's nothing to fret about. In fact you should not avoid it but use everything you can as fuel for your understanding, a lesson to learn from. Don't be upset by your afflictive emotions; if you reject them, then you'll worry even more. Don't feel guilty over not striving for peace. Keep striving for peace, you're intelligenct and you have a lot of potential, and what knowledge you've attained, what you have to share now is very valuable! If you think knowledge and meditation will help you in your quest for peace, pursue them also.

Back to your post (above quote); meditation is good to help for a peaceful mind. Studying buddhism and aikido, I learned a small amount about the mind being at peace--- the mind at peace turns slowly. It is disturbed by nothing. The agitated mind is disturbed by things it thinks are external. It is good to be at peace, peace of mind and centered in meditation, but this could be difficult in a roomful of noisy people. The Buddhists talk about big mind, and small mind. Big mind is when the mind relates to nothing, or to the unchanging eternals. Small mind is when the mind relates to the things it confronts, it observes, as externals, which it thinks it is inside. If the mind relates to these-- or takes its reality from them; it is small mind. If it relates to none of it, it is big mind; it is not disturbed by phenomena, and it turns slowly, and is well focused, and is not distracted, but stays on its target. This would be related to one-pointed concentration, which I find a parallel in Krishna consciousness.
Big mind is something that might take time for one develop...The ability to harness such a thing is very useful, it seems. I feel like alot of these concepts in Buddhism are very much alike to the ideals of some religions I'm well acquainted with (though not very learned)...I see so much universality in almost every supposedly different religions...and it's beautiful. It makes everyone around me feel more and more like me. I start to feel that division in identities is something nonexistent; that I've become the universal man
and he has, me.



It is said that the true view is that meditation is not different from non-meditation, and inaction not different from action. Not the same, but not different. Not two, and not one. If this appeals to you, pursue it. I can tell you I think it's one of the highest truths. Non-duality. The smallest is at one with the largest. Time is an illusion. Things of this nature. Interdependence of all living things. These are Buddhist ideals but the last, interdependence, is a precept of Unitarianism, for example. I wish you luck and I look forward greatly to your replies. May you be happy.
I started thinking, after I wrote that line, of why I should only rely on one to take me to my intended destination, rather than the other. Why do I fear that one might be wrong, when it has immediate positive affects and no signs of impurites or evil...I might employ a method that uses bothe in their own time-- each a different step in my same goal. I feel that all of these ideals (esp. time = illusion) are very universal thoughts that we happen to not pay attention but are right in front of us. Thank you for sharing these thoughts with me; I'm very sure to use these to give me strength to guide myself.



However, this is an indicator of its existence. The sublime and the Supersoul exist; because as we can see and observe them, so are they too observing us. Existing as our full realized self-nature, in one philosophical sense, is as great, as sublime, as fully realizing our nature in any sense that we can observe it in. Realizing our nature in a physical way, with our actions, seems so distant to us because we are so constantly fixated in a conditioning which prevents us from viewing it. If we really observe our selves, our physical bodies, however, don't we see that we are matter, the same as energy, and that our realization would be into pure light?

From my post above. :D
our realization would be very abstract, indeed. The simplicity of the cognitive awareness of our true selves is pretty baffling, but a very good thing overall.

[NikolaiI]

yeah, that makes sense...
Yes, the truth of mind should be sublime because God, when creating us, breathed his spirit into the human 'container'...I guess that's why humans can have this mystic relationship with the creation-- how we could cure ourselves with our will power, and the "aura" B-Mental was referring to. I'm not saying that we have a divine relationship with God, I mean, we are his creation and that's it. But the actual truth might just be beyond us, that we (normally) just keep chasing the semblance of truth...I guess that's why I believe in immortality of the universe (not neccesarily the physical one, I mean the extra-dimensional universes...yay, time travel! :p ). I guess we're always taught to chase the 'deeper' meaning in literature, that we forget the somewhat bigger picture.

I don't think truth is beyond us; even if we have very limited knowledge, if we think correctly, which is the most tricky thing, then we can know the truth. The problem is that we don't ever get to where we think correctly all the time. Fortunately it is entirely possible to do this. But it's not easy. Anywho the truth is often discarded, it's often set aside for something more comfortable. But if you view the truth with correct thinking, then it will actually take you beyond anything.

Oh, I remember now something that was going through my mind thinking about these things. In the third book to "The Vocation of Man," "Faith," Ficthe describes how our vocation is not merely to know, but to do. Kind of interesting. But I think if we really know, then what that knowledge tells us is that we do not need to save everyone. In The Brothers Karamazov Father Zosima says that we are all responsible for everyone else. This is true, but it's also true that we are not responsible for everyone else. Can't we be free of guilt or is there an obligation to engage in battle for the truth? I mean metaphorically. I've sort of got the impression that truth will prevail, in the long run; and we should write books and things, but it's probably wrong to...engage in debates and stuff. How does it help?

I don't know if any of this is useful or interesting. I'm glad to help you with ideas that will give you strength. Knowledge should give us strength, after all. A lot of my ideas are influenced by the thinking of Plato, Jaspers. Jaspers says that in philosophy, we have not gone higher than Plato. This is interesting and possibly true; but then it's wrong to say one philosophy is higher than another. For instance I could rate my own ideas higher than Plato, and this would be fair and true, because if I did so, it would be true to me, but therein lies the vulgarity and falseness of it. We shouldn't use the knowledge that everything is a state of mind to believe things that aren't true, and rate one thing higher than another, but to progress in real knowledge towards real truth. Now, the ideas that I have are very similar to Plato's, and the reason I can't compare my philosophy to his, is tha I don't know how well he fully realized his own philosophy. After all, as he himself says, that is the point of philosophy, and that's how you might judge it. But the ideas that there's a truth, which is a higher being, those I share. I talked about it a little on the other thread-- defining the self, just now, too. Jaspers talks about it, too, and he talks about how different truths affect different people, and he sort of asks; "If I have this knowledge of truth, then why is it still insufficient for me, why do I still long to be a part of worldly things?" And I think all I can reply to this is that he is forgetting that what he sees is truth, which means that the rest is not truth.


I feel more and more embarrased of my giving up the habits that I'm supposed to keep: mainly, worship. I guess it's hard for me to stick to consistently praying (which consists of a balance of physical exercise, mental focus, and spiritual sincerity)...It's really difficult to do the last thing when I'm usually distracted and wish that my time to worship would end soon-- ignorant thoughts that take a toll on my other habits, like eating, studying..etc.
And you pointed out (in the other thread)that asking was important, and I realized that I was worried for the wrong reasons. God would love it more if someone, who was previously down right filthy in his actions and ungrateful, and would just ask Him for one more chance, one more way to fix this, to let him come back on the road to goodness. I was just fooling myself into 'independence' from anyone else.

Well, I think I follow you. As you say realizing ourselves is abstract. As for independence, everyone is unique. As for being worried, there's no reason to be worried, but perhaps there's less reason to be worried over being worried. I don't know if I'm making any sense or helping at all. As for asking God, I don't really know how to put this but I think we ourselves have to take ourselves to God. In Hinduism a lot of emphasis is placed on thsi; although a lot is also placed on finding a bona fide guru, or spiritual master. The spiritual master is supposed to be taken as an authority, although I don't see the same importance they do on this. But does that make any sense how I say that, that we have to take ourselves to God? As far as praying goes, I don't think I've really seen it described anywhere what I've found to be so great. In the Gita, it talks extensively about it all, and it's good, but not quite what I've found. Still, the way they describe it in words is similar to what I believe. There is something very, very special in aiming one's heart and mind towards the Godhead, and in this I believe is the quickest route to spirituality, to the Godhead, and to reality. I believe with all my heart that the reality of God is higher, and truer, than everything we know. I believe this because I've seen it, and I know that I don't, or haven't, made this knowledge manifest, but that's what I would like to work towards.


Big mind is something that might take time for one develop...The ability to harness such a thing is very useful, it seems. I feel like alot of these concepts in Buddhism are very much alike to the ideals of some religions I'm well acquainted with (though not very learned)...I see so much universality in almost every supposedly different religions...and it's beautiful. It makes everyone around me feel more and more like me. I start to feel that division in identities is something nonexistent; that I've become the universal man
and he has, me.

Yes, I"ve noiced the same thing, sometimes, universal ideas in philosophies and religion. I admire the religious thinkers who acknowledge this and make progress towards a commonwealth of knowledge and nourishment.

Very interesting of you to say that you feel like you've become the universal man. :) I'm not sure how I feel about that.


I started thinking, after I wrote that line, of why I should only rely on one to take me to my intended destination, rather than the other. Why do I fear that one might be wrong, when it has immediate positive affects and no signs of impurites or evil...I might employ a method that uses bothe in their own time-- each a different step in my same goal. I feel that all of these ideals (esp. time = illusion) are very universal thoughts that we happen to not pay attention but are right in front of us. Thank you for sharing these thoughts with me; I'm very sure to use these to give me strength to guide myself.

This seems similar to my own growth. I've studied the Bhagavad-Gita, and I can tell the beneficial effects on my mind, or in this case, really, brain. I can tell, reading it, that I am connecting to something spiritually high or whatever, and that just reading it carefully, just running my eyes over the page and meditating, I am learning a lot. And this is not a destination, but just a step along the way, as I come back to other philosophies, and take them and make them my own; and try to understand true being, and God. Dunno if you knew but I was an atheist as a kid, and I've gone back and forth; it was Hinduism which brought me back into believing in God. Good luck with guiding yourself. May you have wings to soar.

[crazefest456]

Can't we be free of guilt or is there an obligation to engage in battle for the truth? I mean metaphorically. I've sort of got the impression that truth will prevail, in the long run; and we should write books and things, but it's probably wrong to...engage in debates and stuff. How does it help?
uh, I'm sorry, I sort of didn't understand this...I hope you're not frustrated with me: I keep making you answer my dumb questions...

I don't know if any of this is useful or interesting. I'm glad to help you with ideas that will give you strength. Knowledge should give us strength, after all. A lot of my ideas are influenced by the thinking of Plato, Jaspers. Jaspers says that in philosophy, we have not gone higher than Plato. This is interesting and possibly true; but then it's wrong to say one philosophy is higher than another. For instance I could rate my own ideas higher than Plato, and this would be fair and true, because if I did so, it would be true to me, but therein lies the vulgarity and falseness of it. We shouldn't use the knowledge that everything is a state of mind to believe things that aren't true, and rate one thing higher than another, but to progress in real knowledge towards real truth. Now, the ideas that I have are very similar to Plato's, and the reason I can't compare my philosophy to his, is tha I don't know how well he fully realized his own philosophy. After all, as he himself says, that is the point of philosophy, and that's how you might judge it. But the ideas that there's a truth, which is a higher being, those I share. I talked about it a little on the other thread-- defining the self, just now, too. Jaspers talks about it, too, and he talks about how different truths affect different people, and he sort of asks; "If I have this knowledge of truth, then why is it still insufficient for me, why do I still long to be a part of worldly things?" And I think all I can reply to this is that he is forgetting that what he sees is truth, which means that the rest is not truth.
Could it be that the non-truth he doesn't see is the truth for some other?



Well, I think I follow you. As you say realizing ourselves is abstract. As for independence, everyone is unique. As for being worried, there's no reason to be worried, but perhaps there's less reason to be worried over being worried. I don't know if I'm making any sense or helping at all. As for asking God, I don't really know how to put this but I think we ourselves have to take ourselves to God. In Hinduism a lot of emphasis is placed on thsi; although a lot is also placed on finding a bona fide guru, or spiritual master. The spiritual master is supposed to be taken as an authority, although I don't see the same importance they do on this. But does that make any sense how I say that, that we have to take ourselves to God? As far as praying goes, I don't think I've really seen it described anywhere what I've found to be so great. In the Gita, it talks extensively about it all, and it's good, but not quite what I've found. Still, the way they describe it in words is similar to what I believe. There is something very, very special in aiming one's heart and mind towards the Godhead, and in this I believe is the quickest route to spirituality, to the Godhead, and to reality. I believe with all my heart that the reality of God is higher, and truer, than everything we know. I believe this because I've seen it, and I know that I don't, or haven't, made this knowledge manifest, but that's what I would like to work towards.
so, the sort of prayer I was talking about was the one dictated under Islam...uh, I've realized that I slowed down my habit of praying, because I breathed incorrectly and would exert so much in my body (because I'd forget to exhale) that it would become physically exhausting...Belief is the first thing in Islam, that's supposed to lead you to the the "reality of God", but to keep reminding yourself throughout the day, you pray...I've got to master the first to get to the other...I'm glad you brought up the belief thing...See, it's little things I thought I accomplished, but didn't....




Yes, I"ve noiced the same thing, sometimes, universal ideas in philosophies and religion. I admire the religious thinkers who acknowledge this and make progress towards a commonwealth of knowledge and nourishment.

Very interesting of you to say that you feel like you've become the universal man. :) I'm not sure how I feel about that.

If you mean literally my gender, I meant man as in "man" not my gender?...
I was being vague there...I meant our souls sort of inter-mingle in a collective-conciousness...Like, a universal mind? I'm sort of baffled, myself :D



This seems similar to my own growth. I've studied the Bhagavad-Gita, and I can tell the beneficial effects on my mind, or in this case, really, brain. I can tell, reading it, that I am connecting to something spiritually high or whatever, and that just reading it carefully, just running my eyes over the page and meditating, I am learning a lot. And this is not a destination, but just a step along the way, as I come back to other philosophies, and take them and make them my own; and try to understand true being, and God. Dunno if you knew but I was an atheist as a kid, and I've gone back and forth; it was Hinduism which brought me back into believing in God. Good luck with guiding yourself. May you have wings to soar.

thanks..

[NikolaiI]

uh, I'm sorry, I sort of didn't understand this...I hope you're not frustrated with me: I keep making you answer my dumb questions...

It's just that sometimes we place too much responsibility on ourselves, or give ourselves and unrealistic burden. I guess it's off-topic.


Could it be that the non-truth he doesn't see is the truth for some other?

Well, sure, yeah. Although, I didn't write that thought out too clearly. I sort of meant that he wasn't fully grasping what he sought after. It's like how you have to be 100% yourself. You have to be completely stable, on firm ground, and since he wasn't, then he didn't fully grasp the truth he sought for, and because of this, he wasn't satisfied with only that truth.


so, the sort of prayer I was talking about was the one dictated under Islam...uh, I've realized that I slowed down my habit of praying, because I breathed incorrectly and would exert so much in my body (because I'd forget to exhale) that it would become physically exhausting...Belief is the first thing in Islam, that's supposed to lead you to the the "reality of God", but to keep reminding yourself throughout the day, you pray...I've got to master the first to get to the other...I'm glad you brought up the belief thing...See, it's little things I thought I accomplished, but didn't....

I don't know so much about Islam. I was raised Christian but I don't know so much about Christian praying, either. I learned Buddhist meditation and one-pointed concentration, which I found a parellel when I learned about Krishna consciousness. Meditation and prayer are something different for everyone; personally, I don't think it's necessary so much to spend a whole hour without moving at all. Someone Blaze told me about, Osho, a spiritual leader from India, talked about this and had some other techniques for meditation to ease someone into the practice. Meditation is similar to prayer and I probably wouldn't have come to prayer if I hadn't learned about meditation, but prayer is a little different if you're giving yourself to God. Lots of thinkers say that we're built for service of God.


If you mean literally my gender, I meant man as in "man" not my gender?...
I was being vague there...I meant our souls sort of inter-mingle in a collective-conciousness...Like, a universal mind? I'm sort of baffled, myself :D

Hm, no I didn't mean your gender. I believe in a universal mind, and a universal consciousness. I believe in fields of information, which we may be unaware of but exist. I've read too many stories of Anton Chekhov and others, that so bafflingly semed like I'd read them before, to doubt a universal consciousness. Universal mind is hard to explain...and I obviously don't really understand it, but I also feel that we can be at one with one another, and it's interesting you say souls inter-mingling because I've felt this, too. Pretty amazing!

[crazefest456]

I don't know so much about Islam. I was raised Christian but I don't know so much about Christian praying, either. I learned Buddhist meditation and one-pointed concentration, which I found a parellel when I learned about Krishna consciousness. Meditation and prayer are something different for everyone; personally, I don't think it's necessary so much to spend a whole hour without moving at all. Someone Blaze told me about, Osho, a spiritual leader from India, talked about this and had some other techniques for meditation to ease someone into the practice. Meditation is similar to prayer and I probably wouldn't have come to prayer if I hadn't learned about meditation, but prayer is a little different if you're giving yourself to God. Lots of thinkers say that we're built for service of God.
Prayer for me isn't a service to God...He doesn't need anything from us. Prayer's different from me because there's that feeling of letting go of my ego and just giving myself away to Him. It truly humbles me, when I finish praying...I'll tell you more about the way I pray, if you want...But it's all essentially the same, somewhat.



Hm, no I didn't mean your gender. I believe in a universal mind, and a universal consciousness. I believe in fields of information, which we may be unaware of but exist. I've read too many stories of Anton Chekhov and others, that so bafflingly semed like I'd read them before, to doubt a universal consciousness. Universal mind is hard to explain...and I obviously don't really understand it, but I also feel that we can be at one with one another, and it's interesting you say souls inter-mingling because I've felt this, too. Pretty amazing!

:) Yeah, definitely!

[Bruce Bradley]

I didn't have time to read all of the replies to this subject. I would like to say one thing about religion, it is very confusing in fact, which is the truth. I feel they all have validity to them. The question is which one to believe in.

It is up the individual to believe how they chose. One thing you will find in yourself is you know the difference between right and wrong. You must listen to your heart and it won't steer you wrong. It has been said that god has made man in his own image and that must mean he is mental just like we are.

Your mind will make you wonder about anything. It is in our nature to never be content with the norm. This why children rebel and want to be different than there parents. They really have no idea what life really is about but they want to learn in their own way. There are some that stay in line and listen but they are the followers of the world. It is the individuals that everybody wants to know and follow. They are a cut above the norm and have different ideas that followers couldn't dream of.

I believe that if we are patterned after god then he is prone to never be content and change his mind, the universe is evidence of that. He tried something and it didn't work out so he kept trying different things. Just like I don't think we are his first attempt at making a creature in his likeness. Thus the ancient cities that did not succeed and prehistoric creatures that just disappeared without a trace. Someday the same thing may happen to us.

I think it is human to think that god is always perfect. I don't believe that he is perfect because he made us in his image and we are not perfect either. I do think he is always right because who is there to dispute him.

I believe that god did send us his son to show us a way to live that is good and true. I also believe we killed him because he was different. what is more important than that is do feel remorse for what we did to him. I believe it would happen again if Jesus was alive today. Search your heart find the answers you are looking for. They are inside each of us. God embedded it in all of us so we would know what he wanted. He also gave us a mind to think for ourselves. It depends on which that you want to listen to.

This is little different then what you will hear in church because they want your money. I don't want anything but the truth and this what I believe in my religion.

[NikolaiI]

I agree with most of the things you wrote, Bruce, or that they are symbollically true. I disagree with something in your presentation though. You personify god so much that he becomes someone we can talk about, describe his actions in a mere few words, and this is incomprehendible to me.

To me god is an infinite, and by that he is undefined and undefinable. He is unknowable-- he is not a he any more than he is a she. God exists and he reveals himself to us, in the infinite-- in what allows us to grow beyond anything we could imagine previously, and in everything which is impossible, but exists anyway, and throws everything off of it. And in all of these, only what is good and true.

[byquist]

God would say chaos doesn't exist and not recommend that we subscribe to it as much as we do.

[blazeofglory]

[QUOTE=byquist;524945]God would say chaos doesn't exist and not recommend that we subscribe to it as much as we do.[/QUOTE
It is written in the Bible there was chaos before the creation of the world.