What's wrong with being naked?

[TheFifthElement]

In another thread there was some lighthearted discussion going on about nudity, and a comment was made (a completely correct comment, by the way) that being nude in public is considered indecent exposure, and is a criminal offence. This is certainly true in UK, although I suppose it's only indecent exposure if someone sees you ;)

Anyway, this is a subject I have thought about in the past, and I wrote a poem about it, which you can read here, if you're interested : http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27800

what occurred to me, when I was thinking about it, was the question of why it is considered indecent, wrong for a person to be naked, when this is their natural state. We are born naked, clothes are technology, we have to manufacture them artificially to our natural state. It's like saying it's an arrestable offence to be without a mobile phone, or a watch, or something along those lines.

So, what is is about being naked that is wrong?

What say you?

[SleepyWitch]

This is certainly true in UK, although I suppose it's only indecent exposure if someone sees you
:lol: :lol: Fifth, I admire your powers of reasoning

I don't think there's anything wrong with it as such :) if everyone walked around naked in public, then it wouldn't be indecend exposure :D

I suppose it's because some prudes (let's blame it on male patriarchs, OK? :D) believe that the only time you should be naked is when you're having sex and since you're not supposed to have sex in public, you're not supposed to be naked, either.

I think if nudity was the norm, no-one would associate it with sex this way. ???


edit:
I'm sitting on the fence, there are splinters in my bum!
:lol: :lol: did you make this up or is it a common saying (the splinters part I mean). I like it

[Lote-Tree]

Supreme Being - you should have made it multi-choice!

I could have voted more than one option there.

But I have voted to get your kit off :D

[SleepyWitch]

have you guys heard of the leopard man (or maybe it was another big cat). he lives in Scotland, I think (or in England). His whole body is tattoed and he doesn't wear any clothes. He built himself a kind of peat hut out in the heaths and he's got a library in it. He spend all day reading his books or going for walks. He's got some saving so he can buy food, milk etc, but otherwise he doesn't work etc.
:bawling: I want to be a leopard man, too

[Nocturna]

I had a long discussion on this with some of my housemates from Northern Ireland and was quite surprised by their reactions. I guess the fact that I'm from the Canary Islands makes me more open minded when it comes ot this topic.

I think that nudity is perfectly natural and that clothes are, like you've said and I can't have put it better, "technology, we have to manufacture them artificially to our natural state".

Nudity is associated to sexuality in out culture, and people still consider sex a taboo. I think it was Diocles who used to masturbate in public because he considered that there was nothing wrong in doing so. Then he spoke of natural needs and artificial ones. Artificial needs would be the ones which have been established socially.

Therefore, clothes when used as protection from the cold, of other things (such as sitting on a fence :P) are a comodity, they're technology. And when used estetically they're totally pointless, an artificial need and a social statement... which then give away a lot about personality, social class... bla bla bla (I'm getting carried away now... my thoughts always come out so messy as well... I usually have to reorder essays a million times, I hope I'm understood in these three paragraphs :P).

I spent hours talking about this with my housemates, one who even said that "seeing a girl in a bikini was disgusting".

[browneyedbailey]

Bleck!

[kilted exile]

I dont walk around naked for fear of jealous people attacking me

[Dori]

I think that nudity is perfectly natural and that clothes are, like you've said and I can't have put it better, "technology, we have to manufacture them artificially to our natural state".

"Industry is the root of all ugliness."

Oscar Wilde, Phrases and Philosophies for the Use of the Young

"Greek dress was in its essence inartisitic. Nothing should reveal the body but the body."

Oscar Wilde, Phrases and Philosophies for the Use of the Young


I voted the same as Lote.

[Lily Adams]

In another thread there was some lighthearted discussion going on about nudity, and a comment was made (a completely correct comment, by the way) that being nude in public is considered indecent exposure, and is a criminal offence. This is certainly true in UK, although I suppose it's only indecent exposure if someone sees you ;)

Anyway, this is a subject I have thought about in the past, and I wrote a poem about it, which you can read here, if you're interested : http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27800

what occurred to me, when I was thinking about it, was the question of why it is considered indecent, wrong for a person to be naked, when this is their natural state. We are born naked, clothes are technology, we have to manufacture them artificially to our natural state. It's like saying it's an arrestable offence to be without a mobile phone, or a watch, or something along those lines.

So, what is is about being naked that is wrong?

What say you?

Nudity is "wrong" in modern society because it implies sexuality, which is also a no no in modern society.

It always cracked me up about how some people hated how the Voyager spacecrafts had pictures of naked people on them. Someone said, "I can't believe my taxpayer dollars are being sent to send indecencies into space."

Do they want E.T. to think that clothes are fused to our skin naturally?

But I don't think I'd want to walk around naked. It's too cold. And also because of the connotations it brings obviously, in some places. It would definitley be uncomfortable. But when you think about it, it's also a matter of where you are. There are topless beaches in Europe and tropical places.

[Koa]

I suppose it's because some prudes (let's blame it on male patriarchs, OK? :D) believe that the only time you should be naked is when you're having sex and since you're not supposed to have sex in public, you're not supposed to be naked, either.

I think if nudity was the norm, no-one would associate it with sex this way. ???



Wow, do you shower with clothes on? :D:D:D

I don't know, to prudity I'd add insecurity. Which is of course another society-induced fear, I guess cavemen and women didn't compare themselves to actor and supermodels...although maybe they had their own, more instinctive idea of beauty... When I was in Russia or in Finland my friends invited me to try sauna, which in both places is traditional. Even if I'm curious about traditions, I just couldn't accept that because being somewhere naked, even if among other women and in a place where everyone is naked and is certainly not paying attention, would make me feel quite bad. :sick:

[Nocturna]

In Finland they see nudity as a normal thing... and don't relate it to sexuality. They all do the sauna thing togehter... They even have festivals with saunas!! I was discussing it with a Finnish friend of mine once.

[SleepyWitch]

Wow, do you shower with clothes on? :D:D:D


:lol: nope, I personally don't. but I saw a documentary about nudism once and they interviewed some very prudish people and this one girl said: "The only time I'm naked is when I'm having sex with my partner and that's a very intimate thing. That's why I could never be a nudist."
I asked myself the same question as you :D :lol:

[manolia]

have you guys heard of the leopard man (or maybe it was another big cat). he lives in Scotland, I think (or in England). His whole body is tattoed and he doesn't wear any clothes. He built himself a kind of peat hut out in the heaths and he's got a library in it. He spend all day reading his books or going for walks. He's got some saving so he can buy food, milk etc, but otherwise he doesn't work etc.
:bawling: I want to be a leopard man, too

I have seen this guy (i think on a tv program with weird stuff)..i want to be a leopard (wo)man too :rolleyes:



Nudity is associated to sexuality in out culture, and people still consider sex a taboo. I think it was Diocles who used to masturbate in public because he considered that there was nothing wrong in doing so. Then he spoke of natural needs and artificial ones. Artificial needs would be the ones which have been established socially.

:lol: :lol: greek perverts (what's wrong with these people? :lol: ) *Joking*
We have many beaches here only for nudists. Never been to one of them, though.


I had a long discussion on this with some of my housemates from Northern Ireland and was quite surprised by their reactions. I guess the fact that I'm from the Canary Islands makes me more open minded when it comes ot this topic.

I think that nudity is perfectly natural and that clothes are, like you've said and I can't have put it better, "technology, we have to manufacture them artificially to our natural state".


Therefore, clothes when used as protection from the cold, of other things (such as sitting on a fence :P) are a comodity, they're technology. And when used estetically they're totally pointless, an artificial need and a social statement... which then give away a lot about personality, social class... bla bla bla (I'm getting carried away now... my thoughts always come out so messy as well... I usually have to reorder essays a million times, I hope I'm understood in these three paragraphs :P).

I spent hours talking about this with my housemates, one who even said that "seeing a girl in a bikini was disgusting".

I agree with most of the things you say. I also believe that much of the prejudice (against nudity) comes from the church (who has demonised sex in past centuries).



I dont walk around naked for fear of jealous people attacking me


Bah! You are just afraid of the pointing and laughing :p

[Lote-Tree]

what occurred to me, when I was thinking about it, was the question of why it is considered indecent, wrong for a person to be naked, when this is their natural state.


Now now Supreme Being! You need to have a better argument than it's being natural state! If you use natural as an argument then there many "natural" thing that will destroy our society. Murder, Rape and pillage - these have been natural state of our human's past!

If natural state is nakedness then all northern European and American Alaskans will be dead by winter :D

And all the Saharan and middleasterners would be burn to toast :D

So Supreme Being - is the a better argument from you?

My argument would be that human body - especially the female body is such a beautiful thing. So I subscribe nakedness for Admiration of Beauty :D

[TheFifthElement]

Now now Supreme Being! You need to have a better argument than it's being natural state! If you use natural as an argument then there many "natural" thing that will destroy our society. Murder, Rape and pillage - these have been natural state of our human's past!

If natural state is nakedness then all northern European and American Alaskans will be dead by winter :D

And all the Saharan and middleasterners would be burn to toast :D

So Supreme Being - is the a better argument from you?

My argument would be that human body - especially the female body is such a beautiful thing. So I subscribe nakedness for Admiration of Beauty :D

So, what you're saying is that it's indecent because of the implications of nakedness, rather than nakedness itself, or are you just avoiding the question like always ;)

And your argument is flawed - what about tribes in Africa who exist in a largely unclothed state - they aren't burnt to toast, just not feeble weaklings like us westerners, and there are ways to keep warm in winter without clothing ;)

Apart from that, yes you are right murder, rape and pillage are part of the natural state of affairs, these things go on no matter how clothed we are, covering up seems to make no difference, but if we were naked all the time...who knows, perhaps we would make love, not war after all? And it's wrong to place nakedness in the same classification as murder, rape, etc - does nakedness harm anyone, shouldn't we only deplore behaviour which is harmful to others?

I agree with one point though, the human body is the most beautiful and remarkable thing that we can experience, and we should treat it as such, not something to be hidden and giggled or sniggered about in embarrassment. But when it comes to the human body we have double standards. When a human form is cleaved out of marble it is art, when my neighbour sunbathes naked in his garden it's indecent exposure - this to me does not make sense!

[Lote-Tree]

So, what you're saying is that it's indecent because of the implications of nakedness, rather than nakedness itself, or are you just avoiding the question like always ;)


I think we adopted clothing not because we started being ashamed of our bodies but for the needs of the environment.



And your argument is flawed - what about tribes in Africa who exist in a largely unclothed state - they aren't burnt to toast, just not feeble weaklings like us westerners, and there are ways to keep warm in winter without clothing ;)


Off course it is flawed. I wanted you to give me a better argument :D

And no nakedness not harmful anyone. But if you have a bad hygiene problem then clothing can prevent disease spreading :D



I agree with one point though, the human body is the most beautiful and remarkable thing that we can experience, and we should treat it as such, not something to be hidden and giggled or sniggered about in embarrassment.


And this is the argument we should pursue :D

[Shalot]

If nudity were the norm, I'd still want to wear at least some underwear. I don't want to sit in a booth at a restaurant after some gross sweaty hairy filthy man has put his "bits" on the vinyl.

Clothes have come to be status symbols, but really we need some cloth for protection, even when it is hot outside. :nod:

[TheFifthElement]

Off course it is flawed. I wanted you to give me a better argument :D



*sigh*

Beauty isn't the argument for everything you know :D

and there's an underlying more serious question. With nakedness it has gone further than expedience, further than adapting for the needs of the environment, as a society we are saying that nakedness is wrong, criminal in fact. Why should it be so? Is this because most people aren't beautiful?


If nudity were the norm, I'd still want to wear at least some underwear. I don't want to sit in a booth at a restaurant after some gross sweaty hairy filthy man has put his "bits" on the vinyl.

he he, good argument Shalot!

[Virgil]

Public nudity is not my cup of tea. Personally I think it actually destroys libido.

[Lote-Tree]

Public nudity is not my cup of tea. Personally I think it actually destroys libido.

Good point. That's why in Saudia Arabia and elsewhere where women are covered - Men's libido must by like Northern European Voles in the mating season :D

[Sweets America]

Public nudity is not my cup of tea. Personally I think it actually destroys libido.

Interesting comment, Virgil. Do you think it destroys libido because some naked bodies are less appealing than others, or because it would remove all notion of mystery and discovery if everyone was constantly naked?

[Sweets America]

Men's libido must by like Northern European Voles in the mating season :D

Jesus. :D :eek:

[amanda_isabel]

personally, i don;t find anything wrong with being naked.. it's just that i suppose it causes a lot of discomfort. it;s not exactly an easy thing to see. i flinch when i see porn stuff, but maybe that's because of their sexual meaning and not of the fact that they are naked.

i mean, my mom was telling me that for people, it's okay to see a woman's breast when there's a baby sucking on it, but not when the breast is there for the sake of calling people to suck it.

another thing that just popped into my head: nakedness is often associated with sexual activity... and since in modern society sexual activities, whether known to the world or not, will and can break or make a person.

nudity is beauty, not because you've got the guts for it, not because you've got the paycheck to prove its worth. it is the human being human--sexual implications included!

[Shalot]

another thing that just popped into my head: nakedness is often associated with sexual activity... and since in modern society sexual activities, whether known to the world or not, will and can break or make a person.




that's interesting. how? Is it like if a woman has sex with too many partners she's a whore and if a man has sex with 100 females by the age of 19 he's a total stud? Or where were you going with that? Or, someone has sex and is humiliated by his/her lover, or left?

Sex is such a natural part of the human experience that I hate to hear about it being the be all end all thing that makes or breaks a person

[LadyW]

Well it would be highly impractical in certain places due to extreme climates...
Not to mention all the disturbed people of the Earth who would use nudity to their strange advantage.
Then theres people like Lote-Tree... who might get self-conscious when people see his lance :D
So sorry, I really couldn't help myself this time.
Oh yes but aside from all of this, nudity... could be interesting.

[Lote-Tree]

Then theres people like Lote-Tree... who might get self-conscious when people see his lance :D


Ha ha :D I am quite proud of my Lance. It keeps women with "Whacking Books" at bay :D

[Virgil]

Interesting comment, Virgil. Do you think it destroys libido because some naked bodies are less appealing than others, or because it would remove all notion of mystery and discovery if everyone was constantly naked?

Pretty much. I think if everyone were constantly naked whatever stimulates us would become dulled and unaroused from repeativeness. Plus some people I think it would be best if they were clothed. :D I've also seen articles about men who are porn obssessed actually have less libido in real life.

[Shalot]

Nocturna said:


Nudity is associated to sexuality in out culture, and people still consider sex a taboo. I think it was Diocles who used to masturbate in public because he considered that there was nothing wrong in doing so. Then he spoke of natural needs and artificial ones. Artificial needs would be the ones which have been established socially.

Is masturbation and/or sex considered a natural need? Because some people think masturbation is a terrible sin. And sex is only permitted within marriage, and only when the act is open to life. And, if you're a nun or priest, you take a vow of celibacy and you're not supposed to have sex or masturbate EVER. Is that natural?

[Chava]

Hmm, Danes have rather an easy going relationship to nudity, and most women go to the beach topless (as do men). Can't say there is an effect on libido though, this scandinavian nation is also known for their sex(uality).

Although, come to think of it, i have heard about insane impotence ratings recently, but i believe it was due to over exposure from chemicals in make up and such before birth. And only the other day there was a claim that viagra ratings were through the roof! What's with you guys!

[LadyW]

Ha ha :D I am quite proud of my Lance. It keeps women with "Whacking Books" at bay :D
Haha oh no, I will never back down Lote :D not ever.

[amanda_isabel]

that's interesting. how? Is it like if a woman has sex with too many partners she's a whore and if a man has sex with 100 females by the age of 19 he's a total stud? Or where were you going with that? Or, someone has sex and is humiliated by his/her lover, or left?

Sex is such a natural part of the human experience that I hate to hear about it being the be all end all thing that makes or breaks a person


sex was such a broad topic that i'm not sure how to expound on it, but i'll give it my best. let's start with this: i happen to think that sex has become much more public today than it would have been a few years back. and yes, you did pick up on the fact that sex can nail your reputation, which, by the way, is a measure by which we are judged on a day to day basis. i don't agree with your example, though, that women with multiple partners are whores and men with multiple partners are studs.

i do agree with sex being part of natural experience. sex is being human, but when i mean making or breaking people, i mean it reputation-wise, like what i said above. hope this clarifies things :)

[Whifflingpin]

" being nude in public is considered indecent exposure, and is a criminal offence. This is certainly true in UK, although I suppose it's only indecent exposure if someone sees you ."

Being nude in public is not generally a criminal offence in the UK.
Sexual Offences Act 2003, clause 66: "Exposure (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) he intentionally exposes his genitals, and (b) he intends that someone will see them and be caused alarm or distress"
Note, intent to be seen and intent to cause alarm and distress are both needed for the offence of Exposure.


(It was potentially a criminal offence until the most recent Sexual Offences Act, so you might find yourself arguing with members of the public or police who are not aware of the current law.)

As to the question, I'd say "Where clothes serve a purpose then wear them, otherwise don't" In practice, since I'm not interested in arguing my way through life, this means I go naked on the beach and indoors, but otherwise generally not. I do not think that there are any sensible moral arguments for covering some part of the body rather than others - totally covered Muslims make more sense to me than men in swimming trunks, but neither make much sense when compared with nudists.

[Shalot]

sex was such a broad topic that i'm not sure how to expound on it, but i'll give it my best. let's start with this: i happen to think that sex has become much more public today than it would have been a few years back. and yes, you did pick up on the fact that sex can nail your reputation, which, by the way, is a measure by which we are judged on a day to day basis. i don't agree with your example, though, that women with multiple partners are whores and men with multiple partners are studs.

i do agree with sex being part of natural experience. sex is being human, but when i mean making or breaking people, i mean it reputation-wise, like what i said above. hope this clarifies things :)

Got it. Also, I don't agree with the woman with a lot of sex partners are whores example, - I was just using it because it was te first thing to come to mind.

And I agree that sex has become very public - even if you're just a regular person. What I mean is that people are sharing a lot more information for some reason. Locker room talk is everywhere. discussions about a partner's intimate "behaviors" (for lack of a better word) and grooming habits etc are broadcast. And that all goes back to nakedness - generally you don't see someone naked unless you're involved with them (or at the locker room at the gym. Can I just request that people not sit on the benches nude? GROSS!" Okay, I am all over the place here. So I will stop typing. I am rambling.

[amanda_isabel]

Got it. Also, I don't agree with the woman with a lot of sex partners are whores example, - I was just using it because it was te first thing to come to mind.

And I agree that sex has become very public - even if you're just a regular person. What I mean is that people are sharing a lot more information for some reason. Locker room talk is everywhere. discussions about a partner's intimate "behaviors" (for lack of a better word) and grooming habits etc are broadcast. And that all goes back to nakedness - generally you don't see someone naked unless you're involved with them (or at the locker room at the gym. Can I just request that people not sit on the benches nude? GROSS!" Okay, I am all over the place here. So I will stop typing. I am rambling.

if people sat on benches nude i'd have to request that people be provided with disposable seat covers!

sexuall activity has gotten a makeover these past few years, and since it's but natural for most to associate intercourse with nudity, nudity gets a makeover too.

despite this though, i still think that nudity is beautiful. that doesn't mean i'm encouraging this whole global warming thing so that it gets warm enough flashing everything to everyone, though

[jon1jt]

I'll tell you why, because the malls and world religions would go out of business.

[Lily Adams]

When a human form is cleaved out of marble it is art, when my neighbour sunbathes naked in his garden it's indecent exposure - this to me does not make sense!

Hey that's another good point!


I'll tell you why, because the malls and world religions would go out of business.

AHAHAHAHAHA. :lol:



You know what else I thought, children can run around naked because children don't, I don't think, have sex that often. :D It ties in with the whole nudity implies sexuality deal.

Also another reason why I would want to wear clothes is because of the various fashion statements I have. :D

[SleepyWitch]

If natural state is nakedness then all northern European and American Alaskans will be dead by winter :D

And all the Saharan and middleasterners would be burn to toast :D

So Supreme Being - is the a better argument from you?
yep, Lote, I think you've got a point there. but I heard the human body adapts to it. there's this one nudist guy who walks around naked in his flat all the time, never heats and leaves the windows open. I think he's from central or northern Europe. As long as you stay in cities it shouldn't be a problem. maybe walking around in 5 m high snow drifts at -30 °C for ten hours could be a bit unpleasant...




My argument would be that human body - especially the female body is such a beautiful thing. So I subscribe nakedness for Admiration of Beauty :D
http://www.freewebs.com/craaaaazi/fat%20woman.jpg
? :sick: :sick: :sick:

[SleepyWitch]

And your argument is flawed - what about tribes in Africa who exist in a largely unclothed state - they aren't burnt to toast, just not feeble weaklings like us westerners, and there are ways to keep warm in winter without clothing ;)


yep, that's why their skin is black, so that they DON'T get burnt to toast. it's not only for decoration, Lote

[SleepyWitch]

Public nudity is not my cup of tea. Personally I think it actually destroys libido.

yep, I agree with that :D but wouldn't the same people who consider nudity indecent see libido as no less decent ;) ---> Death to libido!!! libido must be destroyed :)

[crazefest456]

I'm thinking that it's unhealthy for someone to touch a place where a (bare) butt has sat on because of the thriving bacterial fauna up *ehm* there. Those afore-mentioned benches must be a health-hazard. No one could enjoy a sandwich without being afraid of what sort of things touched it...
I think I'm gonna puke...

[Lote-Tree]

yep, Lote, I think you've got a point there. but I heard the human body adapts to it.


Off course.

But my point is this: Clothing evolved not because humans became ashamed of their bodies but because of the need of the environment and for hygiene reasons. It's better to have your bits covered to have your body hygiene at bay :D


http://www.freewebs.com/craaaaazi/fat%20woman.jpg
? :sick: :sick: :sick:[/QUOTE]

Ha ha :D

Now now Sleepy lets not be Fatist :D

[SleepyWitch]

Being nude in public is not generally a criminal offence in the UK.
Sexual Offences Act 2003, clause 66: "Exposure (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) he intentionally exposes his genitals, and (b) he intends that someone will see them and be caused alarm or distress"
Note, intent to be seen and intent to cause alarm and distress are both needed for the offence of Exposure.

hey, there's a loophole in that law. when you walk around naked in public, you are not exposing your gentials. I mean, you are exposing everything, so you are not explicitely exposing your genitals, seeing as the genitals are not the only thing being exposed :D I.e. walking around naked is not the same as one of those perverts who masturbate out of the window of a train or flash only their genitals
since we all know that psychologists have determined that what counts in morality is the INTENTION, not the effect of people's actions. so when someone walks around naked his intention is to be naked, not to expose his genitals and if his genitals happene to get exposed in the process, that is perfectly moral and decent, because it was not his intention :D
I should have become a lawyer ;)
what if a woman has a big... fur/bush :blush: can she be naked in public? I mean, her genitals wouldn't be exposed :D or do bushes count as genitals? in that case, botanical gardens should be illegal.

[Pensive]

Some people want to keep the information of their bodies to themselves, like some of their thoughts...

The weather we are having here today - I am sure you would catch a severe cold if you run around naked! And clothing can prevent you from being bitten by mosquitoes and what-not! So surely it has some advantages.

*edit to add*

Oh and how would you distinguish between people in streets without them having any clothes on? It would be too difficult, clothes make it much easier. Like the one in green sweater is this or that.

[amanda_isabel]

apparel is worn for the following reasons:

1. utility
2. to denote hierarchy
3. as a form of expression

besides, not everyone looks good naked.

[Whifflingpin]

Originally Posted by Whifflingpin
"Being nude in public is not generally a criminal offence in the UK.
Sexual Offences Act 2003, clause 66: "Exposure (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) he intentionally exposes his genitals, and (b) he intends that someone will see them and be caused alarm or distress"
Note, intent to be seen and intent to cause alarm and distress are both needed for the offence of Exposure."

Originally Posted by Sleepywitch
"hey, there's a loophole in that law. when you walk around naked in public, you are not exposing your gentials. I mean, you are exposing everything, so you are not explicitely exposing your genitals, seeing as the genitals are not the only thing being exposed I.e. walking around naked is not the same as one of those perverts who masturbate out of the window of a train or flash only their genitals"

That's not a loophole - that's the purpose of the law. No part of the human body is considered offensive in UK law unless it is deliberately used offensively.

Being nude in a public place is perfectly legal unless you intend to cause alarm or distress. People who flash their genitals intending to cause alarm or distress are committing an offence, under the Sexual Offences Act. Full nudity could be offensive, for instance if a man walked up and down naked outside a girls' school, there could be a presumption that he was intending to cause distress.

Just the same principle, for example, as exposing a hand. Normally, people who go about with bare hands are not committing any offence, but someone who clenches his fist and threatens with it is committting an offence, under the Public Order Act.


*** **** ****
Originally Posted by Crazefest456
"I'm thinking that it's unhealthy for someone to touch a place where a (bare) butt has sat on because of the thriving bacterial fauna up *ehm* there. Those afore-mentioned benches must be a health-hazard. No one could enjoy a sandwich without being afraid of what sort of things touched it...
I think I'm gonna puke..."

Now, I might be on shaky ground here, but I think that there are far more harmful bacteria in the mouth than around the bum. So, people who leave ued chewing gum or cigarette ends around are a far greater public health hazard than someone sitting down naked. Does the thought of touching used chewing gum make you want to puke? Probably not, in which case it is not really hygiene that is the issue, but something else that gets you all emotional.

And if you consider your own personal health, then remember that clothes, especially clothes fabricated of man-made fibres, keep your skin in a warm, moist condition which encourages the growth of bacteria & fungi.

[Whifflingpin]

Pensive: "Some people want to keep the information of their bodies to themselves, like some of their thoughts...
... And clothing can prevent you from being bitten by mosquitoes and what-not! So surely it has some advantages."

I don't think anyone has argued that everyone should go naked all the time, or even that people who want to wear clothes should not. Only that, in general there is nothing wrong with being nude, and that those who want to go naked should be able to do so without comment or criticism from those who prefer to wear clothes.

[TheFifthElement]

Originally Posted by Whifflingpin
"Being nude in public is not generally a criminal offence in the UK.
Sexual Offences Act 2003, clause 66: "Exposure (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) he intentionally exposes his genitals, and (b) he intends that someone will see them and be caused alarm or distress"
Note, intent to be seen and intent to cause alarm and distress are both needed for the offence of Exposure."


I suppose the danger is that intent is inferred due to the generally prudish and non-demonstrative nature of us Brits. Plus it occurs in other ways. I have heard of people who have been slapped with an ASBO for sunbathing naked in their own back garden due to complaints from neighbours who could 'see' them when looking into their neighbours garden from an upstairs window. Of course if the neighbour then 're-offends' it's a criminal act because they're breaching their ASBO.


apparel is worn for the following reasons:

1. utility
2. to denote hierarchy
3. as a form of expression

besides, not everyone looks good naked.

Not everyone looks good clothed ;)

*EDIT*


I don't think anyone has argued that everyone should go naked all the time, or even that people who want to wear clothes should not. Only that, in general there is nothing wrong with being nude, and that those who want to go naked should be able to do so without comment or criticism from those who prefer to wear clothes.

Well said.

[SleepyWitch]

I have heard of people who have been slapped with an ASBO for sunbathing naked in their own back garden due to complaints from neighbours who could 'see' them when looking into their neighbours garden from an upstairs window.
why don't they just stop looking into their neighbours garden then?

[TheFifthElement]

why don't they just stop looking into their neighbours garden then?

You'd think that'd be the obvious answer, but that would be curtailing the rights of the curtain-twitcher. It's a national institution.

[kiz_paws]

besides, not everyone looks good naked.
But in who's perspective? How are we basing this judgement?

[Pensive]

Pensive: "Some people want to keep the information of their bodies to themselves, like some of their thoughts...
... And clothing can prevent you from being bitten by mosquitoes and what-not! So surely it has some advantages."

I don't think anyone has argued that everyone should go naked all the time, or even that people who want to wear clothes should not. Only that, in general there is nothing wrong with being nude, and that those who want to go naked should be able to do so without comment or criticism from those who prefer to wear clothes.

If you are ready to share all your thoughts with about just everyone, in most of the cases you would be considered a fool. Such is the case with the information of your body. Fine if someone wants to be nude (personally I don't feel like it there must be some death sentence imposed on them for that) but if they choose to do whatever they want, we also choose to think of them in whatever the way we want to. The sight might make some people umm uncomfortable, because of religious reasons or others. If they find you going like this to be something you have done wrong, after all you have also considered what they disliked to be right. :p

[Virgil]

If you are ready to share all your thoughts with about just everyone, in most of the cases you would be considered a fool. Such is the case with the information of your body. Fine if someone wants to be nude (personally I don't feel like ithere must be some death sentence imposed on them for that) but if they choose to do whatever they want, we also choose to think of them in whatever the way they want to. The sight might make some people umm uncomfortable, because of religious reasons or others. If they find you going like this to be something you have done wrong, after all you have also considered what they disliked to be right. :p

Well said Pensy, and not just for religious reasons. Common decency.

[Pendragon]

I voted to keep yourself covered. I've seen the leopard man, (he wears a pouch in front), having a pint in town with the other people who accept him as eccentric. Now, even with me having lost weight, finally, about 25 pounds, I am still over 300 at 6 foot to 6 one. I can stand straighter now. I do not look that big in clothes. Naked, I might be taken for a silver back Gorilla, or something! My oldest boy might be Bigfoot, he's so hairy! We are not "The Pretty People!" I am the type that a doctor or a wife should only see and doctors and nurses may require therapy! And don't give me this "Get in shape!" crap. I was in shape. The medications they gave me to fight this bi-polar gave me the weight, over 100 pounds. I can take my medicine or freak out. You wouldn't like me when I freak out! I don't like me when I freak out!

Pen

[TheFifthElement]

If you are ready to share all your thoughts with about just everyone, in most of the cases you would be considered a fool. Such is the case with the information of your body. Fine if someone wants to be nude (personally I don't feel like it there must be some death sentence imposed on them for that) but if they choose to do whatever they want, we also choose to think of them in whatever the way we want to. The sight might make some people umm uncomfortable, because of religious reasons or others. If they find you going like this to be something you have done wrong, after all you have also considered what they disliked to be right. :p


Well said Pensy, and not just for religious reasons. Common decency.

I have a few questions :

Pensieve, are you advocating deceit? This seems to be the message of your post (that, and that nudists should receive the death penalty, but I'm sure I'm getting that bit wrong!). We should hide/lie about our thoughts, we should hide/lie about our bodies. Is this what religion teaches?

Virgil - why is it common decency?

Or perhaps the overriding question is - what is so distasteful about the human body, that you feel so strongly that it should be covered up.

Not saying you're wrong, or right for that matter, but in a number of posts (not just these) thoughts have been expressed which indicate that there is something distasteful/disgusting/uncomfortable about the human body. This is what I am trying to understand, Pensieve, you said that "the sight might make some people umm uncomfortable..." - what is it about the human body that makes you uncomfortable. Should the human naked form make you uncomfortable?

[Lote-Tree]

what is it about the human body that makes you uncomfortable.


It's the genitals I guess for most people. Sex Taboo. It's in all cultures.



Should the human naked form make you uncomfortable?

No it should not. And it does not in most European countries.

It only happens religiously puritan nations.

I say it again - it was not humans became ashamed of their bodies that they wore clothing. It was for the environmental protection initially - it then evolved into a taboo after the invention of - especially patriachal religions.

India for example in the past was quite comfortable with nudity. Now its very Taboo.

[Whifflingpin]

Pensive: "if they choose to do whatever they want, we also choose to think of them in whatever the way we want to. The sight might make some people umm uncomfortable, because of religious reasons or others."

Of course you may choose to think of people in any way that you want, but that does not mean that they have to behave in a way that suits your opinion rather than their own. I, for cultural or other reasons, find that the proximity of women in strict Islamic dress makes me feel uncomfortable, but I recognize that my discomfort is my problem, and I would not suggest for a moment that Moslem women should take the slightest notice of my opinion on their dress. I certainly do not think that the law has any business telling people what they should or should not wear, (except where the dress is intended to be offensive.)


"If you are ready to share all your thoughts with about just everyone, in most of the cases you would be considered a fool. Such is the case with the information of your body."
This analogy makes no sense to me whatsoever. I think the look in my eyes and the lines on my face tell more about me than any other aspect of my body, and I share that information with anyone who cares to read it.
There may be a case for hiding all the body, face included, and obviously there is sometimes good reason for protecting certain parts, e.g. the eyes while welding, but I think it is silly to single out certain bits of body as being showable, and other bits as being (literally) obscene.


Virgil: "Common decency."
"Common decency" when applied to dress really translates as "unreasoning prejudice."
Common sense, maybe, suggests that one should conform within reasonable limits to local practice in dress, because not doing so is to make some positive statement. So, although it is legal in UK to walk naked down the street, few nudists would do so, any more than they'd walk down the street in the outfit of a Cherokee chief.

[Oniw17]

If it's warm enough, there's nothing wrong with it.

[SleepyWitch]

I voted to keep yourself covered. I've seen the leopard man, (he wears a pouch in front), having a pint in town with the other people who accept him as eccentric. Now, even with me having lost weight, finally, about 25 pounds, I am still over 300 at 6 foot to 6 one. I can stand straighter now. I do not look that big in clothes. Naked, I might be taken for a silver back Gorilla, or something! My oldest boy might be Bigfoot, he's so hairy! We are not "The Pretty People!" I am the type that a doctor or a wife should only see and doctors and nurses may require therapy! And don't give me this "Get in shape!" crap. I was in shape. The medications they gave me to fight this bi-polar gave me the weight, over 100 pounds. I can take my medicine or freak out. You wouldn't like me when I freak out! I don't like me when I freak out!

Pen

hey, I like gorillas. they are cuddly. I'm not sure about naked gorillas, though :D
congrats on losing 25 pounds, Uncle Pen. I'm sure you'll manage to reach your goal in the end.

[SleepyWitch]

Virgil - why is it common decency?



:D what sort of a stupid question is that, Fifth? It is common. If you don't get it, you've got only yourself to blame :D ;) j/k

[Pensive]

Pensieve, are you advocating deceit? This seems to be the message of your post (that, and that nudists should receive the death penalty, but I'm sure I'm getting that bit wrong!). We should hide/lie about our thoughts, we should hide/lie about our bodies. Is this what religion teaches?

Yes you have got it wrong. When did I say that? Please take the time to read my post again. And there is a HUGE difference between 'hiding' and 'lying'. When the hell did I mention lying about something? As for keeping things inside yourself, and keeping a few things about yourself away from public eye is not what at least appears to me most religious beliefs that people have, condemn. In fact in a few ways it can be quite useful. You don't trust just about everyone with your secrets or do you?


Of course you may choose to think of people in any way that you want, but that does not mean that they have to behave in a way that suits your opinion rather than their own. I, for cultural or other reasons, find that the proximity of women in strict Islamic dress makes me feel uncomfortable, but I recognize that my discomfort is my problem, and I would not suggest for a moment that Moslem women should take the slightest notice of my opinion on their dress. I certainly do not think that the law has any business telling people what they should or should not wear, (except where the dress is intended to be offensive.)

When did I say law has any business about it? Why put words in my mouth which I did not even utter? I wrote 'Personally I don't feel it that there must be any death sentence imposed...' Did I not put a 'don't' there?

[Whifflingpin]

Whiff: "I certainly do not think that the law has any business telling people what they should or should not wear, (except where the dress is intended to be offensive.) "

Pensive: "When did I say law has any business about it? Why put words in my mouth which I did not even utter? I wrote 'Personally I don't feel it that there must be any death sentence imposed...' Did I not put a 'don't' there?"

You put a "don't" and I did not think [or mean to imply] that you suggested that the law had anything to do with it. [Like TheFifthElement, I did read a comma into your phrase at first, and then realised that was the opposite of what you meant - "Fine if someone wants to be nude (personally I don't feel like it :) there must be some death sentence imposed on them for that)"]

[subterranean]

have you guys heard of the leopard man (or maybe it was another big cat). he lives in Scotland, I think (or in England). His whole body is tattoed and he doesn't wear any clothes. He built himself a kind of peat hut out in the heaths and he's got a library in it. He spend all day reading his books or going for walks. He's got some saving so he can buy food, milk etc, but otherwise he doesn't work etc.
:bawling: I want to be a leopard man, too

I think you were talking about Tom the leopard? I think he has his teeth carved too so that they'd look (and function, I guess) like leopard's teeth. Funny to see him with a shopping cart and full clothes.


To me, all tese nudity things are more about appropriateness and not about right or wrong.

[Virgil]

hey, I like gorillas. they are cuddly. I'm not sure about naked gorillas, though :D
congrats on losing 25 pounds, Uncle Pen. I'm sure you'll manage to reach your goal in the end.

I seem to remember a certain part of a gorilla's anotomy you so prominantly focused on in one of your poems. :p So I believe you. You do like gorillas. :lol:

[Virgil]

No it should not. And it does not in most European countries.

I beg to differ. Last time I checked European nations do not walk around in the streets naked. And while I'm no legal expert I would think there would be legal ramificatons. Do you walk around naked in town?


It only happens religiously puritan nations.
Such as?


I say it again - it was not humans became ashamed of their bodies that they wore clothing. It was for the environmental protection initially - it then evolved into a taboo after the invention of - especially patriachal religions.
I didn't know you were an anthropoligist. Can you supply evidence for that statement? Humans were wearing clothing well before Judiism, Christianity, or Islam. You must be another of those lit netters who get their information from movies. And which cultures were not patriarchal? All cultures known to date were patriarchal.

[Virgil]

Virgil - why is it common decency?

Or perhaps the overriding question is - what is so distasteful about the human body, that you feel so strongly that it should be covered up.



That's probably a complicated question. I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer it. My gut feel is that we do not live in a vacuum or in historical isolation. We live in a community that has a continuity with the past, a heritage. We don't get to make social norms in isolation. We have thousands of years of social practice, conventions, and institutions that are interlinked. And yes a big part of it is religious institutions. Now you can chuck all the heritage and institutions you want, but that dosn't prevent others who are quite comfortable in their heritage and institutions from looking at you as some deviant. Actually that's probably a paraphrase of Edmund Burke, who I'm sure is not taught in school much any more.

And no matter what you do there will always be social conventions. Let me ask you. Assume you are having a dinner party and one of your male guests stands, unzips his fly, and proceeds to urinate in an empty carafe. Pretty shocking, but under your criteria of nakedness what's the difference? He feels it's his liberty to do so. And I assume you wouldn't object. :p

[Lote-Tree]

I beg to differ. Last time I checked European nations do not walk around in the streets naked.


No. I meant European nations (except UK) are more comfortable with nudity. Women go bare breasted quite easily on the beaches.



Do you walk around naked in town?


Sure all the time - especially when Americans around ;-)



Such as?


The Indian Subcontinent, Middleeast and even bible belt America.



I didn't know you were an anthropoligist.


I am a lot of things Virgilus ;-)



Can you supply evidence for that statement?


More primitive Amazonian Tribes do not wear clothing because their environment does not require it because it's too humid.



Humans were wearing clothing well before Judiism, Christianity, or Islam.


Yes, for protection against the environment mainly and not to cover shamefullness of their bodies.



And which cultures were not patriarchal?


If we evolved from Animals then early human culture's would have been matriachal. Anthropologiest have found Fertility Cults - the worhsip of the Female for her reproductive powers - all over Europe and India.



All cultures known to date were patriarchal.

The dispute still going on this.

[Virgil]

No. I meant European nations (except UK) are more comfortable with nudity. Women go bare breasted quite easily on the beaches.


Oh big deal. They do not go around walking bare breasted as a rule. Ok, one social norm of going topless at a beach has been established. That must amount to .00000001% of the life of an average woman. I went to a topless beach in Italy, and all my male Italian cousins were gawking and evaluating the topless chests. Hardly what I think people would consider natural and unassuming.


Sure all the time - especially when Americans around ;-)
I guess you enjoy your perversions. ;)


The Indian Subcontinent, Middleeast and even bible belt America.
You mean like China and Japan and Canada and Austrailia and... in short any civilized nation.


More primitive Amazonian Tribes do not wear clothing because their environment does not require it because it's too humid.
That's not proof. How do you know they first didn't start wearing clothes and evolved away from it. You're just making things up.


Yes, for protection against the environment mainly and not to cover shamefullness of their bodies.
Again, how do you know? Based on movies? Did they write it down that they were unashamed? You don't know.


If we evolved from Animals then early human culture's would have been matriachal. Anthropologiest have found Fertility Cults - the worhsip of the Female for her reproductive powers - all over Europe and India.
Yes there were fertility cults who worshipped goddesses, but they were still patriarchal. Men were in control and held power. It's just that God was a she.


The dispute still going on this.
I've never heard this was in dispute.

[Lote-Tree]

Oh big deal.

Erm it is! You do that in UK and you get arrested or even in Bible Belt America you will probably get locked up :D



That must amount to .00000001% of the life of an average woman.


The point is Europeans (except UK) are quite comfortable with nudity.



I guess you enjoy your perversions. ;)


Naked body is pervesion? Perversion is to think it so! ;-)



You mean like China and Japan and Canada and Austrailia and... in short any civilized nation.




That's not proof. How do you know they first didn't start wearing clothes and evolved away from it. You're just making things up.


Why don't you read upon Amazonian Tribes?



Again, how do you know?


By studying :D

You should try it ;-)



Yes there were fertility cults who worshipped goddesses, but they were still patriarchal. Men were in control and held power. It's just that God was a she.


God was a She and men held power?



I've never heard this was in dispute.

Perhaps you should read upon it:D

[LadyW]

Goodness me Lote...
Is this the passion you so frequently speak of?
Roar on Lote :D
N.B: No offence to Virgil I don't know what the debate includes due to the fact I am too tired to read it. I just like Lote when he's all fired up!

[LadyW]

Naked body is pervesion? Perversion is to think it so! ;-)
Oh Lote... what should I do with you :)

[Virgil]

Erm it is! You do that in UK and you get arrested or even in Bible Belt America you will probably get locked up :D


Are you saying that a man can freely walk down the streets of Paris naked without being arrested? I doubt it.


The point is Europeans (except UK) are quite comfortable with nudity.
Who says that anyone else is not comfortable with nudity? I'm comfortable with people picking their noses in public, but I still would hold he has no manners. Do you fart in front of your company? Decency has nothing to do with being uncomfortable.



Naked body is pervesion? Perversion is to think it so! ;-)
If you feel the urge to display your wares when it is not the cultural norm to do so, yes that is perversion.


God was a She and men held power?
Absolutely. Read up on it. :p ;)

[Koa]

Oh big deal. They do not go around walking bare breasted as a rule. Ok, one social norm of going topless at a beach has been established. That must amount to .00000001% of the life of an average woman. I went to a topless beach in Italy, and all my male Italian cousins were gawking and evaluating the topless chests. Hardly what I think people would consider natural and unassuming.


Typical Italian attitude. :D If you (Lote) think in Southern Europe we are more free with such things, you're on the wrong track. We are more prude because of the influence of the church, and in general for example my German teacher was explaining us that for Germans naked bodies on TV are not a big deal while they are here. Unfortunately there is a tendency, often condemned by foreign press, to have quite undressed ladies on TV shows, which is indeed appalling. However, it is not nudity but blatant allusion...which is probably more likely to cause men to drool and feel allowed to drool (see Virgil's cousins) rather than create a feeling of comfort for nakedness. I think nakedness, even if partial, is very sexualised here (dunno if it's different elsewhere) and it's part of how male-centred our society still is below the surface.
And honestly, since I live in the UK, I'm very surprised of how underdessed girls often are. I am noticing it is becoming more and more common in Italy too, but I don't think it was when I was younger (and I think it comes from examples on TV). Again, that's not nudity, but very open and showy t-shirts seem to me to be far more commonly worn by English girls than Italian ones. In general, I have always heard that Northern European cultures have a better relation with nudity than Southern ones, as I have mentioned for example the Finnish thing before. Probably as a result of how Catholicism has shaped our culture. Btw, never been to a nudist beach nor known anyone who has been etc. You see topless women on the beach but not on a regular basis. And well it's probably almost a decade since I've been on a beach, but back then it was seen with curiosity.

[Lote-Tree]

Are you saying that a man can freely walk down the streets of Paris naked without being arrested? I doubt it.


I am saying that Europeans (except uk) are quite comfortable with nakedness. They can go bare breasted in beaches without in qualms. You cant do this in the uk.



If you feel the urge to display your wares when it is not the cultural norm to do so, yes that is perversion.


So Europeans when they went to Amazonia - were perverted weren't they because they were fully clothed?

or did not the Europeans find nakedness of the natives digusting?



Absolutely. Read up on it. :p ;)

I have and I say to you - it's not!

If we evolved from animals then early societies must have been matriachal.

[Koa]

Public nudity is not my cup of tea. Personally I think it actually destroys libido.

That is another good point. If you could see naked people everywhere, would you find it so special to dream of that person you really like -naked? Well first of all if/she would be naked all the time anyway so you wouldn't need to wonder/imagine, and well that would leave some curiosity away wouldn't it? And therefore some fun. It's like how sex and sexual images and not very covering clothes are all over the media and they make me so annoyed that I would become a nun just out of spite for that...:crash:

[Koa]

I am saying that Europeans (except uk) are quite comfortable with nakedness. They can go bare breasted in beaches without in qualms. You cant do this in the uk.

Wrong. Maybe you didn't have time to read what I wrote above, but please... a lot of - even very young - girls go close to bare breasted around, when they go out or even at Uni/work (even I find myself staring!) which is not that common where I'm from (when my parents came to visit they also noticed, as one of my best friends always wears very open tops- they don't even look slutty but well I've seen her boobs more often than not). While on a beach that makes more sense because well, you're exposing so much already...

[LadyW]

Wouldn't it be a beautiful world if we could all wonder round naked with pure content. But first we would have to address and then eliminate the following: Self Consciousness, prejudice, paedophilia, extreme climates, perverts, rapists and the list continues... The human body is beautiful but there are many terrible people in this world who would take advantage of nudity. Personally, I would rather be with clothes because through clothes I can express individuality.
As it happens... these days, the human body is flaunted rather shamelessly through TV, magazines and papers. I find it infuriating that women would sink to such a low level - I find it rather degrading. The female body is beautiful, priceless... but the beauty can be bought for about £1.20 in your local shop.

[Lote-Tree]

Wouldn't it be a beautiful world if we could all wonder round naked with pure content. But first we would have to address and then eliminate the following: Self Consciousness, prejudice, paedophilia, extreme climates, perverts, rapists and the list continues... The human body is beautiful but there are many terrible people in this world who would take advantage of nudity. Personally, I would rather be with clothes because through clothes I can express individuality.
As it happens... these days, the human body is flaunted rather shamelessly through TV, magazines and papers. I find it infuriating that women would sink to such a low level - I find it rather degrading. The female body is beautiful, priceless... but the beauty can be bought for about £1.20 in your local shop.

Good point! Again we are agreeing! :D

I think the contention is this:

We criminilise nakedness.

We should be encourage to love our bodies.

Going about naked is not practical or desired for many reasons.

What I am saying is that clothing evolved as a protection against evironment rather humans becoming ashamed of their bodies.

[Koa]

Wouldn't it be a beautiful world if we could all wonder round naked with pure content. But first we would have to address and then eliminate the following: Self Consciousness, prejudice, paedophilia, extreme climates, perverts, rapists and the list continues... The human body is beautiful but there are many terrible people in this world who would take advantage of nudity. Personally, I would rather be with clothes because through clothes I can express individuality.

Well I like clothes too, firstly because what bothers me most in this context is self consciousness (I'm anti-rapeable lol, even the most lustful raper would think twice :lol:) and then yes, these days they are a means of expression


As it happens... these days, the human body is flaunted rather shamelessly through TV, magazines and papers. I find it infuriating that women would sink to such a low level - I find it rather degrading. The female body is beautiful, priceless... but the beauty can be bought for about £1.20 in your local shop.

I'm not sure I find it degrading per se, depends on the context, what annoys me is the amount of it, you can't go on TV without showing half of your body... at least here...

[LadyW]

Good point! Again we are agreeing! :D

Argh, this is happening more often than not Lote :lol:
Glad you agree though...
I had a rather comical image of a rather thoughtful naked man standing there one day until it finally hit him...:idea: "It's rather chilly today... I think I shall wrap a leaf around my lance to keep it warm"

[Koa]

What I am saying is that clothing evolved as a protection against evironment rather humans becoming ashamed of their bodies.

But I was wondering about that earlier in the thread: when did shame set in? Or competition? Did primitive people feel shame for their bodies? Or were envious of each other's bigger/smaller parts? When did that start? In modern times with all the media stuff? What about the Victorian age? Was it just about prudeness?

[Lote-Tree]

Argh, this is happening more often than not Lote :lol:
Glad you agree though...
I had a rather comical image of a rather thoughtful naked man standing there one day until it finally hit him...:idea: "It's rather chilly today... I think I shall wrap a leaf around my lance to keep it warm"

LadyW that was really funny :D

I must hand it to you. You are quite good ;-) but you know whose best don't you ;-)

[Lote-Tree]

But I was wondering about that earlier in the thread: when did shame set in? Or competition? Did primitive people feel shame for their bodies? Or were envious of each other's bigger/smaller parts? When did that start? In modern times with all the media stuff? What about the Victorian age? Was it just about prudeness?

I would say it set in with Abrahamic religions in middle east.

[LadyW]

LadyW that was really funny :D

I must hand it to you. You are quite good ;-) but you know whose best don't you ;-)

Haha :D I am glad to have amused you so...
Pray tell, who is best?
For I have no idea... ;) hehe just kidding chief.

[kratsayra]

never mind. I had something and then I changed my mind.

Anyone ever hear of Foucault's "repressive hypothesis"? I just thought I'd throw that in. But that's not at all what I had here before.

[TheFifthElement]

That's probably a complicated question. I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer it. My gut feel is that we do not live in a vacuum or in historical isolation. We live in a community that has a continuity with the past, a heritage. We don't get to make social norms in isolation. We have thousands of years of social practice, conventions, and institutions that are interlinked. And yes a big part of it is religious institutions. Now you can chuck all the heritage and institutions you want, but that dosn't prevent others who are quite comfortable in their heritage and institutions from looking at you as some deviant. Actually that's probably a paraphrase of Edmund Burke, who I'm sure is not taught in school much any more.

And no matter what you do there will always be social conventions. Let me ask you. Assume you are having a dinner party and one of your male guests stands, unzips his fly, and proceeds to urinate in an empty carafe. Pretty shocking, but under your criteria of nakedness what's the difference? He feels it's his liberty to do so. And I assume you wouldn't object. :p

Is he naked?

You lost me at 'dinner party' and 'carafe' as I have niether of these :p but you raise an interesting point and, sadly, I was thinking along these lines when I was trying to get to sleep last night. I'm not sure how I'd react, is the honest answer, though men urinate in public all the time, in fact men urinating in public is infinitely more socially acceptable than nudity.

But you didn't answer question no. 2 "what is so distasteful about the human body, that you feel so strongly that it should be covered up." ;)

[SleepyWitch]

I seem to remember a certain part of a gorilla's anotomy you so prominantly focused on in one of your poems. :p So I believe you. You do like gorillas. :lol:

that was not a gorilla. plus, I found that beast gross. :cold:

[SleepyWitch]

I didn't know you were an anthropoligist. Can you supply evidence for that statement? Humans were wearing clothing well before Judiism, Christianity, or Islam. You must be another of those lit netters who get their information from movies. And which cultures were not patriarchal? All cultures known to date were patriarchal.

nope, for example there are matriarchal tribes in the Gobi dessert in Mongolia.
I guess they do wear clothes, though. but in this case it would probably bebecause of the environment, not because they are ashamed, following Lote's argument

[SleepyWitch]

Decency has nothing to do with being uncomfortable.

what's the purpose of decency then?
did you know that holding back farts can cause indigestion? which will lead to even worse farts? :p

[Virgil]

But I was wondering about that earlier in the thread: when did shame set in? Or competition? Did primitive people feel shame for their bodies? Or were envious of each other's bigger/smaller parts? When did that start? In modern times with all the media stuff? What about the Victorian age? Was it just about prudeness?


I would say it set in with Abrahamic religions in middle east.

Where do you make your stuff up from? You mean to say that Chinese cultures, quite distant from ancient Isreal (which by the way was a tiny culture compared to all the other clothed cultures around it) didn't wear clothes?

[Virgil]

Is he naked?

You lost me at 'dinner party' and 'carafe' as I have niether of these :p but you raise an interesting point and, sadly, I was thinking along these lines when I was trying to get to sleep last night. I'm not sure how I'd react, is the honest answer, though men urinate in public all the time, in fact men urinating in public is infinitely more socially acceptable than nudity.


Well, he's taking out his member and peeing into a bottle at the table. I can't imagine you or anyone would find that acceptable. And where do you live that men go around peeing in public? You would get arrested for that here in New York or actually anywhere in the US. Now that you mention it, I do remember one late night in Glasgow a bunch of very young men peeing up against a city building in the middle of downtown. Is that the custom in Britain? How repulsive if it is.


But you didn't answer question no. 2 "what is so distasteful about the human body, that you feel so strongly that it should be covered up." ;)
Well, I don't agree with the premise of your question. There is nothing distateful about the human body. I enjoy it personally. But there are manners, courtesies, decorum.

[Virgil]

nope, for example there are matriarchal tribes in the Gobi dessert in Mongolia.
I guess they do wear clothes, though. but in this case it would probably bebecause of the environment, not because they are ashamed, following Lote's argument

Describe matriarchal. You mean women actually rule the land, have men as their servants, and control power? I find that hard to believe.

[SleepyWitch]

Describe matriarchal. You mean women actually rule the land, have men as their servants, and control power? I find that hard to believe.

there are many things I find hard to believe, too, but they exist anyway :p

[Shalot]

I did a little search looking for matrirachs and Gobi desert and found the Kayans, or The Padaung, which is a subset of the Karens. I couldn't find much about them though.

here's a link to someone's travel blog I found after reading some long piece about the Karens, which briefly mentioned the Kayans. http://www.burntmoon.com/section38858_2733.html

Oh, and here's the link to the piece about the Karens. http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Mauritania-to-Nigeria/Karens.html

I am not sure if that was who she was referring to though.

[TheFifthElement]

Well, he's taking out his member and peeing into a bottle at the table. I can't imagine you or anyone would find that acceptable. And where do you live that men go around peeing in public? You would get arrested for that here in New York or actually anywhere in the US. Now that you mention it, I do remember one late night in Glasgow a bunch of very young men peeing up against a city building in the middle of downtown. Is that the custom in Britain? How repulsive if it is.

I wouldn't say it's custom, but it's common practice, if you need to pee and there are no toilets handy then you have to be pragmatic. No one would get arrested for that here. You may say it's repulsive, I say so is McDonalds but it doesn't make it illegal.


Describe matriarchal. You mean women actually rule the land, have men as their servants, and control power? I find that hard to believe.

Great Britain is currently a matriarchal society and has been so in the past. In fact Queen Elizabeth I was probably the most successful of the British monarchs, so perhaps the idea of women 'ruling the land, having men as servants, and controlling power' is not so hard to believe after all.

*edit* I didn't get that from a movie by the way ;)

[Koa]

I wouldn't say it's custom, but it's common practice, if you need to pee and there are no toilets handy then you have to be pragmatic. No one would get arrested for that here. You may say it's repulsive, I say so is McDonalds but it doesn't make it illegal.


Tsk tsk, MacDonalds has toilets you can sneak into instead of being pragmatic against a tree...:D
Anyway well I wouldn't say it's common but I certainly don't find it strange if a man stops somewhere hidden to pee - a bit weirder is to see it in a visible place but it happens, especially with drunk people. It's one of the reasons why I say I'd like to be a man, they don't need to look for a MacDonalds lol.

I saw a movie once about an italian immigrant in Switzerland in the 70s who got into trouble for peeing in public (NOT a true story, just a movie), but we consider Switzerland to be super-clean and the film was about hard conditions of immigrants in the 70s, it was kind of like "but I did nothing" while the authorities were taking it seriously.
http://digilander.libero.it/godot61/paneecioccolata.htm
(oh the plot says, he loses his residence permit for that)

[SleepyWitch]

Well, he's taking out his member and peeing into a bottle at the table. I can't imagine you or anyone would find that acceptable. And where do you live that men go around peeing in public? You would get arrested for that here in New York or actually anywhere in the US.
people do it in my town all the time. yep, it is repulsive, but I've never seen anyone get arrested for it :(

[pussnboots]

There is nothing wrong with the naked body. But I do think that there is a time and place for everything. To go outside just to be naked is ridiculous.
I don't care if the law allowed it. If someone wants to be naked let them go to a nudist colony or do it in their own home or backyard. Its bad enough to see people walking around in clothes that are too tight with all their rolls hanging but to see them naked would gross me out.
I'd rather try to envision what a person looks like naked this way my perception won't be ruined.

[mazHur]

what will be the difference between me and my she-rotaweiller(sp.?) if I also stayed naked all the time, at all places ?

[pussnboots]

what will be the difference between me and my she-rotaweiller(sp.?) if I also stayed naked all the time, at all places ?

your point ?

[mazHur]

Simple. There ought ought to be some difference between animals and humans, ignorance and intellect.

[pussnboots]

of course there's a difference between animals and humans. Are you going to say there isn't ?

[mazHur]

I said there is.

[pussnboots]

I said there is.

sorry, my mind is not quite awake yet

[mazHur]

It's alright...have a nice cup of coffee and refresh
happy new year

[Whifflingpin]

Well that's the best reason I've heard for wearing clothes - so that no-one mistakes you for a dog.

[mazHur]

good for you good for the dog !

[subterranean]

LOL, Whif..

My friend's husband has this business in dog hotel (yes..dog hotel). The dogs are put in the very clean cage with nice blanket and toys in their cage. They even got music to put them asleep and with extra cash, the dogs can also have steak served in a silver plate.
I saw some pictures of dogs wearing cute clothes too.
O yea...they got Christmas presents too..

Here's the website: http://www.aahundecenter.dk/
It's in Danish but I think you'll get the idea

[Lote-Tree]

Where do you make your stuff up from?
You mean to say that Chinese cultures, quite distant from ancient Isreal (which by the way was a tiny culture compared to all the other clothed cultures around it) didn't wear clothes?

It was only in the Bible you find that after Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit that they realised they were naked and thus became ashamed of their nakedness and covered themselves up!

You don't get such stories in the Chinese Culture. So clothing in that culture evolved from protection against environment rather than they becoming ashamed of their bodies.

So no I don't make these things up. I read a lot :D

Edit: Abrahamic religions did not spring up in the Ancient Israel...it goes back to Sumer in the Ancient Mesopotamia where earliest of the civilisations evolved.

[Whifflingpin]

Brilliant, Sub.

Perhaps there should be a thread titled "What do dogs watch on their television sets with video players?"

[Sweets America]

So no I don't make these things up. I read a lot :D

Yes, and you believe everything you read. :D

One thing I wonder is: if human beings had never used any kind of clothing, would they have naturally adapted themselves to the environment? (coldness and such?)

[TheFifthElement]

Yes, and you believe everything you read. :D

One thing I wonder is: if human beings had never used any kind of clothing, would they have naturally adapted themselves to the environment? (coldness and such?)

Perhaps the better question is, what is it that changed that made it that humans could no longer tolerate the environment.


Brilliant, Sub.

Perhaps there should be a thread titled "What do dogs watch on their television sets with video players?"

Bones!

[Sweets America]

Perhaps the better question is, what is it that changed that made it that humans could no longer tolerate the environment.

Yes, but we are not sure about that. Maybe the fact that human beings put clothes on has nothing to do with the fact that they could not tolerate the environment? I mean, if humans put clothes on because they were ashamed of their nudity, for instance, then it has nothing to do with the environment. So, I wonder. :)

[TheFifthElement]

Yes, but we are not sure about that. Maybe the fact that human beings put clothes on has nothing to do with the fact that they could not tolerate the environment? I mean, if humans put clothes on because they were ashamed of their nudity, for instance, then it has nothing to do with the environment. So, I wonder. :)

In which case they would be naturally adapted to the environment, but your question was would they have naturally adapted to the environment, which implies that they weren't, if you see what I mean (I hope you do, I'm not sure I do :p )

[SleepyWitch]

it doesn't take clothes to tell men and dogs apart. dogs lift a leg when they pee in the street, men don't :)
...what about women, though?

[Sweets America]

In which case they would be naturally adapted to the environment, but your question was would they have naturally adapted to the environment, which implies that they weren't, if you see what I mean (I hope you do, I'm not sure I do :p )

Wait a minute...:p
If they put clothes on because they were ashamed, that does not mean that they were naturally adapted to the environment. Maybe they didn't know that they were not adapted to the environment, but since they put clothes on out of shame, they never realized that even without being ashamed, they would still have needed clothes because of the environment. :confused:

But, my question is: since we put clothes on for some unknown reason, now it's too late, we are used to having clothes and thus we are sensitive to coldness. Maybe we became sensitive to coldness because we got used to having clothes on? But, if we had never put any clothes, maybe we would have naturally adapted, or maybe we would not have needed any adaptation if we were already ok with coldness. :D :confused:

[Sweets America]

it doesn't take clothes to tell men and dogs apart. dogs lift a leg when they pee in the street, men don't :)
...what about women, though?

I personally have a lot in common with dogs. :) I'm proud of it. :)

[Lote-Tree]

Yes, and you believe everything you read. :D


Hardly! ;-)



One thing I wonder is: if human beings had never used any kind of clothing, would they have naturally adapted themselves to the environment? (coldness and such?)

Well it goes like this Sweetie: Normally evolution would force them to grow fur :D

But we being intelligent instead of evolution transforming us into furry creatures we developed clothing to protect oursevles from the environment :D

[Sweets America]

Hardly! ;-)



Well it goes like this Sweetie: Normally evolution would force them to grow fur :D

But we being intelligent instead of evolution transforming us into furry creatures we developed clothing to protect oursevles from the environment :D

Now I have a new question: who is the b*stard who had the idea of inventing clothes?! When I think I missed the opportunity of growing fur! If we had grown nice fur, then I would have looked like a real dog, that would have been nice. :D

Huh, Lote, are you implying that men are more intelligent than animals? I think it all depends on how we define intelligence, but that is another debate. :p I'm not always proud of being a human being.

[Lote-Tree]

Now I have a new question: who is the b*stard who had the idea of inventing clothes?!


It was that or perhaps extinction like the Dinosaours :D



When I think I missed the opportunity of growing fur!


I prefer the silky smooth skin :D



Huh, Lote, are you implying that men are more intelligent than animals?


Supremely :D

[Sweets America]

It was that or perhaps extinction like the Dinosaours :D
Ok, ok...... but...not really. Why couldn't we grow nice fur?


I prefer the silky smooth skin :D

Well, of course, with the damn hairs that we have! But, if I had the same fur as my dog, that would be very soft to caress! It relaxes me to caress my dog's fur. Also, I want to have the same nose as my dog, I find it cute. :)


Supremely :D

My poor Lote, you have so much more to learn. :p Things that you won't necessarily find in books written by human beings. :)

[mazHur]

Lote----Normally evolution would force them to grow fur

the question s what made men lose their fur in the first? how does Darwinism explain this when he says (wo)men evolved from apes ??

[TheFifthElement]

Wait a minute...:p
If they put clothes on because they were ashamed, that does not mean that they were naturally adapted to the environment. Maybe they didn't know that they were not adapted to the environment, but since they put clothes on out of shame, they never realized that even without being ashamed, they would still have needed clothes because of the environment. :confused:

But, my question is: since we put clothes on for some unknown reason, now it's too late, we are used to having clothes and thus we are sensitive to coldness. Maybe we became sensitive to coldness because we got used to having clothes on? But, if we had never put any clothes, maybe we would have naturally adapted, or maybe we would not have needed any adaptation if we were already ok with coldness. :D :confused:

he he he, I think the likelihood is that humans didn't wear clothes and were adapted to their environment. They then discovered how to cure animal hides (as a by product of hunting) and realised that by wearing these they could move into less temperate climates, thereby extending their reach and territory. Hence in colder climes clothing is necessary because the only reason we can live in colder areas is because of clothing.

Yes, I've bored myself now!

[mazHur]

he he he, I think the likelihood is that humans didn't wear clothes and were adapted to their environment. They then discovered how to cure animal hides (as a by product of hunting) and realised that by wearing these they could move into less temperate climates, thereby extending their reach and territory. Hence in colder climes clothing is necessary because the only reason we can live in colder areas is because of clothing.

Yes, I've bored myself now!

In a way correct but maybe they wanted to hide something precious??

[Lote-Tree]

Ok, ok...... but...not really. Why couldn't we grow nice fur?


Well, Sweetie evolution works like this: Adapt fast enough or die.

And you can look at the Earth's Crust and you can see a million layers of deaths...



My poor Lote, you have so much more to learn. :p Things that you won't necessarily find in books written by human beings. :)

We are supremely intelligent. That is a fact. Accept it Sweetie. Are we wise? Thats a different question :D

[Lote-Tree]

the question s what made men lose their fur in the first?

Easy. Environmental pressure. Earth warming up.



how does Darwinism explain this when he says (wo)men evolved from apes ??

Please go and learn about evolution. We did not evolve from apes. We shared a common ancestor with them.

[mazHur]

Easy. Environmental pressure. Earth warming up.[QUOTE]

earth was not warm when men started to wear clothes,,,,,still earth is too cold at some places/seasons for men to roam about naked.....?




[QUOTE]Please go and learn about evolution. We did not evolve from apes. We shared a common ancestor with them

Okay, then we evolved from fish, isn't it? But the question is why arn't we as furry as our ancestors??

am already in the evolution process ,,,,no need to go anywhere to learn what 's already there!

[Sweets America]

We are supremely intelligent. That is a fact. Accept it Sweetie. Are we wise? Thats a different question :D

And you are supremely arrogant. :)
I will never consider myself as being superior to animals. I just have a different kind of intelligence, that's all. I have noticed that you assume a lot of things as if they were logical. :)
Now concerning wisdom....I have nothing to add.

[Sweets America]

he he he, I think the likelihood is that humans didn't wear clothes and were adapted to their environment. They then discovered how to cure animal hides (as a by product of hunting) and realised that by wearing these they could move into less temperate climates, thereby extending their reach and territory. Hence in colder climes clothing is necessary because the only reason we can live in colder areas is because of clothing.

Yes, I've bored myself now!

That is an interesting idea. But that would mean that men were all in temperate climates in the beginning? This is a possibility, but I don't know.

[mazHur]

And you are supremely arrogant. :)
I will never consider myself as being superior to animals. I just have a different kind of intelligence, that's all. I have noticed that you assume a lot of things as if they were logical. :)
Now concerning wisdom....I have nothing to add.

may I say humans are better than animals as far as intellect is concerned?

[Lote-Tree]

earth was not warm when men started to wear clothes,,,,,still earth is too cold at some places/seasons for men to roam about naked.....?


Geological records show Earths has alternated between cold and warm phases. Animals evolved to meet these changes by either losing fur or putting them.

But with human's instead of environment changing them they were intelligent enough to change the environment.



Okay, then we evolved from fish, isn't it?


All life forms share a common ancestor. Isn't that an amazing thing? The Unity at the heart of everything!

[SleepyWitch]

may I say humans are better than animals as far as intellect is concerned?

ok, let's assume this is really true. but that doesn't mean we need clothes to prove it. as long we are sure for ourselves that we are different from dogs etc, there's no need to prove it to anyone

[Lote-Tree]

And you are supremely arrogant. :)


Truth stands on it's own regardless of arrogance Sweetie :D

Just like Truth of Gravity stands on it's whether millions believe in it or not



I will never consider myself as being superior to animals.


We are animals too. But we are on a category on it's own. There is nothing like us on this planet.



I just have a different kind of intelligence, that's all.


Bueno! :-)



I have noticed that you assume a lot of things as if they were logical. :)


My outlook is the Scientific Method.

[mazHur]

Geological records show Earths has alternated between cold and warm phases. Animals evolved to meet these changes by either losing fur or putting them.

But with human's instead of environment changing they were intelligent enough to change the environment.



All life forms share a common ancestor. Isn't that an amazing thing? The Unity at the heart of everything!

Hey, you are so good at evolution !I have but to agree.:lol:

[Sweets America]

may I say humans are better than animals as far as intellect is concerned?

It depends on what you see in the notion of intellect. There are different kinds of intelligence. You can find a social intelligence, or a logical one, and so on. Moreover, I am not sure we can generalize: some humans might be more intelligent than animals on some points, and some might be less intelligent. But, I'm not only talking about 'intelligence'. I'm also referring to kindness and other qualities of the soul.
Also, I am not sure that the 'human intelligence' can be compared to the animal one. I don't see why what human beings see as being intelligent would be judged as being better.

[mazHur]

Truth stands on it's own regardless of arrogance Sweetie :D

Just like Truth of Gravity stands on it's whether millions believe in it or not



We are animals too. But we are on a category on it's own. There is nothing like us on this planet.



Bueno! :-)



My outlook is the Scientific Method.

Bravo !!!:)

[Sweets America]

Truth stands on it's own regardless of arrogance Sweetie :D

Just like Truth of Gravity stands on it's whether millions believe in it or not

What is Truth?


We are animals too. But we are on a category on it's own. There is nothing like us on this planet.

Yes we are animals. There is nothing like us on the planet. Well, you can say that for each category.



My outlook is the Scientific Method.

Yes. How wonderful. :)

[mazHur]

It depends on what you see in the notion of intellect. There are different kinds of intelligence. You can find a social intelligence, or a logical one, and so on. Moreover, I am not sure we can generalize: some humans might be more intelligent than animals on some points, and some might be less intelligent. But, I'm not only talking about 'intelligence'. I'm also referring to kindness and other qualities of the soul.
Also, I am not sure that the 'human intelligence' can be compared to the animal one. I don't see why what human beings see as being intelligent would be judged as being better.


Men can read , write
and talk. this makes them superior over animals.

As far as dogs are concerned I love them. Nothing as loving and faithfull as these wonderful animals but,,,,,,,,,,
beware of Koreans ! I just saw a video on U tube butchering them,,,,2000000 butchered for Korean and Chinese consumption in one year ! and what a terrible death they impart to these lovely creatures. Why dont you protest?

[Virgil]

there are many things I find hard to believe, too, but they exist anyway :p


I did a little search looking for matrirachs and Gobi desert and found the Kayans, or The Padaung, which is a subset of the Karens. I couldn't find much about them though.

here's a link to someone's travel blog I found after reading some long piece about the Karens, which briefly mentioned the Kayans. http://www.burntmoon.com/section38858_2733.html

Oh, and here's the link to the piece about the Karens. http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Mauritania-to-Nigeria/Karens.html

I am not sure if that was who she was referring to though.

After searching through the web sites, I am even more assured there has never been a matriarchal society. If they did, the feminists would be bragging about them everywhere. They would be on the cover of every feminists magazine, in every other documentary, on the lips of political rhetoric of all the feminists. Sorry they don't exist. How would a woman or group of women enforce their power. It's brute strength that enforces power.

[Sweets America]

Men can read , write
and talk. this makes them superior over animals.

As far as dogs are concerned I love them. Nothing as loving and faithfull as these wonderful animals but,,,,,,,,,,
beware of Koreans ! I just saw a video on U tube butchering them,,,,2000000 butchered for Korean and Chinese consumption in one year ! and what a terrible death they impart to these lovely creatures. Why dont you protest?

Men can write, read and talk. Yes, but why would that make them 'better'? My dog can bark and communicate. My dog can jump over a very high wall, and I cannot. That doesn't mean he's better than me. A lion can kill me very easily. And so what, I don't see why he would be better. I don't see why you put human qualities first, also.

Now about Koreans eating dogs, I see how you are trying to provoke me. Well, as far as I am concerned, I see nothing wrong with eating a dog. I see something wrong with making a dog suffer, but eating one, no. It's a just a difference of culture. My beloved dog just died. Some part of my mind thinks that eating him might have been a great form of respect towards him in a way, it would have been a ceremony in which I would have taken his soul into mine.

[mazHur]

After searching through the web sites, I am even more assured there has never been a matriarchal society. If they did, the feminists would be bragging about them everywhere. They would be on the cover of every feminists magazine, in every other documentary, on the lips of political rhetoric of all the feminists. Sorry they don't exist. How would a woman or group of women enforce their power. It's brute strength that enforces power.

No sir, you are wrong. Their have been matriarchal societies and one of the is that of Gilgamesh. Please check it out for your enlightenment. You ( and those who dont know about it ) will surely find it enlightening, I bet!

[Sweets America]

How would a woman or group of women enforce their power. It's brute strength that enforces power.

But, does power necessarily have to be enforced by 'brute strenght'? Maybe a woman could become a chief if she was just respected by her fellows? I don't know.

[mazHur]

Men can write, read and talk. Yes, but why would that make them 'better'? My dog can bark and communicate. My dog can jump over a very high wall, and I cannot. That doesn't mean he's better than me. A lion can kill me very easily. And so what, I don't see why he would be better. I don't see why you put human qualities first, also.

Now about Koreans eating dogs, I see how you are trying to provoke me. Well, as far as I am concerned, I see nothing wrong with eating a dog. I see something wrong with making a dog suffer, but eating one, no. It's a just a difference of culture. My beloved dog just died. Some part of my mind thinks that eating him might have been a great form of respect for him in a way, it would have been a ceremony in which I would have taken his soul into mine.


Sweetie, you hurt me by comparing humans equal to animals !
If, as you say, everything is equal, then the very purpose of creation goes hay wire!

there are chordates, vertebrates and invertebrates,,,,science classified them for a purpose , to differentiate

Someone poisoned two of my dogs and I cant tell you how bad I felt. I couldnt sleep for two nights. I still have their tombs erected near my house. But I cant stand someone killing them for food when alternate food is availble ,,,,you are a lover of dogs yet dont mind people cruelly killing and eating them, surprising!

[Virgil]

No sir, you are wrong. Their have been matriarchal societies and one of the is that of Gilgamesh. Please check it out for your enlightenment. You ( and those who dont know about it ) will surely find it enlightening, I bet!
Show me.



But, does power necessarily have to be enforced by 'brute strenght'? Maybe a woman could become a chief if she was just respected by her fellows? I don't know.
Possible, but that's just one woman. All the husbands would not relinquish their right as heads of households to their wives. And would all the officers in the army be women commanding men?


:crash: :crash: :crash: Ahhhh!!! This thread is rediculous. All you nudists, do me a favor and go out and strip. I've had enough. I'm not coming back to this silly thread again. :p

[mazHur]

But, does power necessarily have to be enforced by 'brute strenght'? Maybe a woman could become a chief if she was just respected by her fellows? I don't know.

Man, read Gilgamesh and see how women exploited men for their ''vested interests''

[mazHur]

For information about Gilgamesh click on the foll link:-

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/

[Virgil]

Man, read Gilgamesh and see how women exploited men for their ''vested interests''

I've read Gilgamesh and it's men who are kings and rule. What are you talking about?

Here right from the site you gave:
Gilgamesh is refered to as:

Supreme over other kings, lordly in appearance,
he is the hero, born of Uruk, the goring wild bull.

[Sweets America]

Sweetie, you hurt me by comparing humans equal to animals !
If, as you say, everything is equal, then the very purpose of creation goes hay wire!

there are chordates, vertebrates and invertebrates,,,,science classified them for a purpose , to differentiate

Someone poisoned two of my dogs and I cant tell you how bad I felt. I couldnt sleep for two nights. I still have their tombs erected near my house. But I cant stand someone killing them for food when alternate food is availble ,,,,you are a lover of dogs yet dont mind people cruelly killing and eating them, surprising!

Well, I am sorry if I hurt you. That is only my opinion and you can keep yours. My opinion might be totally wrong anyway, it is just my way of seeing things.
I see what you mean with eating dogs while there is other food available. But, what I mean is: why would I feel sorry for a dog and not for a cow??? My private opinion is that I have a deep love for dogs, and I just like cows, but if I want to be fair, I should not defend dogs first. I am sure there are people who deeply love cows and who wonder why people eat them while there is other food available. If I want to be fair, I must go beyond my dep love for dogs. Now, I admit that if I had the choice between saving a dog or a cow, I would save the dog, but I see that would not be fair of me.

Please, reread my last message: I did not say I didn't care that people CRUELLY kill dogs. I hate cruelty.
Now, what I said about eating my dog was to explain that I could see a beauty in that act. A respect, a last ceremony. It would be much more than a meal.

[mazHur]

I've read Gilgamesh and it's men who are kings and rule. What are you talking about?

Here right from the site you gave:
Gilgamesh is refered to as:

but you seem to miss the culture he was born in and how he screwed his own mother and how women had the choice to sleep with their favorite men,, his was a purely matriarchal society

[Sweets America]

Possible, but that's just one woman. All the husbands would not relinquish their right as heads of households to their wives. And would all the officers in the army be women commanding men?


:crash: :crash: :crash: Ahhhh!!! This thread is rediculous. All you nudists, do me a favor and go out and strip. I've had enough. I'm not coming back to this silly thread again. :p

What is the problem with having women commanding men? You sound a little macho. :)
The thread is not ridiculous. The fact that you cannot impose your views on others doesn't make the thread ridiculous. Does it? :D

[Virgil]

but you seem to miss the culture he was born in and how he screwed his own mother and how women had the choice to sleep with their favorite men,, his was a purely matriarchal society

You obviously have no clue as to what is a patriarchal or a matriarchal society.

[mazHur]

What is the problem with having women commanding men? You sound a little macho. :)
The thread is not ridiculous. The fact that you cannot impose your views on others doesn't make the thread ridiculous. Does it? :D

isnt it that women are not capable of performing certain functions which a man can?? After all women are delicate stuff and not fit for many jobs. It's rare for them to lead,,,,history tells us

[Virgil]

What is the problem with having women commanding men? You sound a little macho. :)
The thread is not ridiculous. The fact that you cannot impose your views on others doesn't make the thread ridiculous. Does it? :D

:lol: Who's trying to impose anything? Let me ask you Sweets, since Lote thinks that Europeans are so much more explicit with nudity, do men or woman walk around Paris with no clothes, even in the summertime when it's too hot to wear clothes?

And yes, I am macho. :D

[mazHur]

You obviously have no clue as to what is a patriarchal or a matriarchal society.

Now dont say that,,,,
I live in a patriarchal society where man is the leader (not the macho!

[Sweets America]

isnt it that women are not capable of performing certain functions which a man can?? After all women are delicate stuff and not fit for many jobs. It's rare for them to lead,,,,history tells us

Mister Butt, I never thought that women and men were eaqual. They are just different.
Women are delicate stuff, eh? Yes of course.
Maybe it's hard for women to lead because men do not have enough confidence in them? I don't see why a woman could not be a good leader.

[mazHur]

virgil,,,,And yes, I am macho.

really? I think we are gettin off topic. Everyone may like to have a cold shower in nude !!;)

[Sweets America]

:lol: Who's trying to impose anything? Let me ask you Sweets, since Lote thinks that Europeans are so much more explicit with nudity, do men or woman walk around Paris with no clothes, even in the summertime when it's too hot to wear clothes?

And yes, I am macho. :D

Huh, no, people don't walk naked in Paris. :D
I think that what Lote meant was that in the European countries, nudity and sexuality was put forward more? And he might have meant also that America was more religious and thus maybe tolerated less nudity? I am not sure? Please note that I am just trying to explain Lote's opinion. Lote is so strange anyway that it is difficult to know what is in his brain. :)

[Sweets America]

really? I think we are gettin off topic. Everyone may like to have a cold shower in nude !!;)

No, I prefer a hot bath, please.

[mazHur]

Mister Butt, I never thought that women and men were eaqual. They are just different.
Women are delicate stuff, eh? Yes of course.
Maybe it's hard for women to lead because men do not have enough confidence in them? I don't see why a woman could not be a good leader.

History says so , I don't.
There have been women leaders but they could not perform well. Men did have confidence in women, Joan of Arc is an example. Then there was the Bloody Mary of Scotland,,,,,who devoured men ! yet you want men to follow women?

Women are like flowers, they are beauty of this world, love of mens hearts,,,,but not good leaders, I suppose:alien: .

[mazHur]

No, I prefer a hot bath, please.

but the point in case is taking off the clothes in either case !:)

[Sweets America]

History says so , I don't.
There have been women leaders but they could not perform well. Men did have confidence in women, Joan of Arc is an example. Then there was the Bloody Mary of Scotland,,,,,who devoured men ! yet you want men to follow women?

Women are like flowers, they are beauty of this world, love of mens hearts,,,,but not good leaders, I suppose:alien: .

Oh, I see you must follow Lote's scientific method: 2 examples and you make a generality. :D

Women are not as innocent as you may think. Women, also, are not only beautiful things that you put in a corner of your house to decorate it. :)

[mazHur]

Oh, I see you must follow Lote's scientific method: 2 examples and you make a generality. :D

Women are not as innocent as you may think. Women, also, are not only beautiful things that you put in a corner of your house to decorate it. :)

I think women are made to be loved ,to be worshiped but not lead !

[Sweets America]

I think women are made to be loved ,to be worshiped but not lead !

But...why would women be made to be worshipped??
And, I think men deserve to be loved as well, you know. :)
Now, if a woman wants to lead, it's her right. It's not MazHur Butt who will stop her. :)

[Pensive]

I think women are made to be loved ,to be worshiped but not lead !

Yeah and leaders should be those who mistake marriage for love... :p

[mazHur]

But...why would women be made to be worshipped??
And, I think men deserve to be loved as well, you know. :)
Now, if a woman wants to lead, it's her right. It's not MazHur Butt who will stop her. :)


I told you that before. Women are like flowers, Devi's, Venuses and best of all the beautiful things that adorn this universe..............they deserve to be loved but not command !

Who am I to stop them ?? They are obviously dominating and ruthless !:)

Men are made for women, women for men,,,,they need each other for their sexual needs,,,,,,that's all !

[mazHur]

Yeah and leaders should be those who mistake marriage for love... :p

I didnt say marriage is love,,,,,but love in marriage is not bad .:)

[Sweets America]

I told you that before. Women are like flowers, Devi's, Venuses and best of all the beautiful things that adorn this universe..............they deserve to be loved but not command !

Who am I to stop them ?? They are obviously dominating and ruthless !:)

Men are made for women, women for men,,,,they need each other for their sexual needs,,,,,,that's all !

No, I disagree, women are not like flowers or such. There are women who are definitely not like flowers :lol: , and some men who are more like flowers than some women.

Huh, men are made for women and reciprocally......BUT.....what do you do with men who love men and women who love women (or men who love animals:D :goof:) ? We don't care about 'who is made for who', we just love. That's already nice. :)

[mazHur]

No, I disagree, women are not like flowers or such. There are women who are definitely not like flowers :lol: , and some men who are more like flowers than some women.

Huh, men are made for women and reciprocally......BUT.....what do you do with men who love men and women who love women (or men who love animals:D :goof:) ? We don't care about 'who is made for who', we just love. That's already nice. :)


What do you mean by ''we''?? seems a bit egotistical, aint it ??


I don't mind what you do, how you love, whom you love,,,,,everybody has his/her own preferences. I am a straight man and like straight things, straight love and with women of course!

Yes, women are the most beautiful gift of God to men. They ought to be decorated in men's hearts !:)

some men may be like flowers I agree but thats exception. similrly some women are like stones, grit,,,,,,,and *****y :D

Love with animals is good but not sex ofcourse!:D

[Pensive]

I didnt say marriage is love,,,,,but love in marriage is not bad .:)

Anyone can change her/his views after having been convinced by a female about it! (now tell me who is better for leadership :p ) :D

[mazHur]

Anyone can change her/his views after having been convinced by a female about it! (now tell me who is better for leadership :p ) :D


Masti say baaz aajao !

did I change my views?? nice way for a female to convince a male of her superiority !:D :( love instead of pensiveness would have added to your winning chance !:lol:

[Pensive]

Masti say baaz aajao !

did I change my views?? nice way for a female to convince a male of her superiority !:D :( love instead of pensiveness would have added to your winning chance !:lol:

:lol:

Who is 'mast', the one who stays on topic or the one who starts referring to other books when the discussion turns against him! :p

[Sweets America]

What do you mean by ''we''?? seems a bit egotistical, aint it ??


I don't mind what you do, how you love, whom you love,,,,,everybody has his/her own preferences. I am a straight man and like straight things, straight love and with women of course!

Yes, women are the most beautiful gift of God to men. They ought to be decorated in men's hearts !:)

some men may be like flowers I agree but thats exception. similrly some women are like stones, grit,,,,,,,and *****y :D

Love with animals is good but not sex ofcourse!:D

Egotistical? Not sure how.
Yes, everybody has their own preference. I prefer men, but I have nothing against women who prefer women or men who prefer men. :)
Women are a gift from God to men? Now that raises the question of God's existence. Also, saying that women are a gift is a little condescending towards them. As if they had just been put on this planet to please men! :eek:
Well, now, about sex with animals :goof: I don't know, it might be possible that some people feel for animals what I feel for men and you feel for women? I wonder.

[LadyW]

Egotistical? Not sure how.
Yes, everybody has their own preference. I prefer men, but I have nothing against women who prefer women or men who prefer men. :)
Women are a gift from God to men? Now that raises the question of God's existence. Also, saying that women are a gift is a little condescending towards them. As if they had just been put on this planet to please men! :eek:
Well, now, about sex with animals :goof: I don't know, it might be possible that some people feel for animals what I feel for men and you feel for women? I wonder.
Beastiality/Zoophilia is illegal thank the Lord... But I think humans can form emotional attatchments to animals and vice versa.
Yes I agree that does seem very condesending does'nt it? I wonder... apart from the obvious *ahem* what differences are there between males and females? Physcologically speaking.
I am adament that we are all equal no matter what our gender, race, religion, sexuality or appearance is. We are human beings and that in itself is beautiful.

[mazHur]

:lol:

Who is 'mast', the one who stays on topic or the one who starts referring to other books when the discussion turns against him! :p

Pens. you are a tough girl,,,every girl here is tough ! Overbearing!:)

You seem to be in blissful 'masti'' ,,,,,,,,what you say in US when a girl goes mast??

[Koa]

I think women are made to be loved ,to be worshiped but not lead !

As I'm not as politically correct as most people on this forum and I like to say things bluntly well... this sentence made me feel sick. Although thinking about it it's cute to see men that are as naive as you... And thanks for reminding me that I'm better off without a man than with someone who thinks like that... (I'm not a flower, I'm a cactus!!! :D)

As for the matriarchal society, I had a look at the most obvious of sources, Wikipedia, which is quite interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
apparently antropologists agree that a human matriarchal society has never existed :( but there are some 'matrifocal' ones. I thought I had heard about matriarchal societies, like some tribes in Africa or Amazonia or such... Well that's just Wikipedia so I suppose many other sources and theories can be found, but that's a start.
Oh and there's a link to matriarchy in the USSR, haven't read it all yet but seems an interesting read (from browsing around I gather that matriarchy existed in the USSR, of which thinking about it I had heard about and it's not hard to imagine considering all the stuff about equality), and that Israel is a matriarchal society though the explanation is beyond me.
http://usachi.narod.ru/en/zhen-en.htm/

[mazHur]

Beastiality/Zoophilia is illegal thank the Lord... But I think humans can form emotional attatchments to animals and vice versa.
Yes I agree that does seem very condesending does'nt it? I wonder... apart from the obvious *ahem* what differences are there between males and females? Physcologically speaking.
I am adament that we are all equal no matter what our gender, race, religion, sexuality or appearance is. We are human beings and that in itself is beautiful.


Did I say Freud spoke something about women??

Women are also said to be mere ''ribleys''. arn't they??
I am a supporter of women insofar love is concerned but I dont think they could be equal to men....impossible !:D

[Sweets America]

Beastiality/Zoophilia is illegal thank the Lord... But I think humans can form emotional attatchments to animals and vice versa.
Yes I agree that does seem very condesending does'nt it? I wonder... apart from the obvious *ahem* what differences are there between males and females? Physcologically speaking.
I am adament that we are all equal no matter what our gender, race, religion, sexuality or appearance is. We are human beings and that in itself is beautiful.

I just wondered if for instance, a person loved an animal as others love their boyfriend or girlfriend, I wonder if it should be considered as being bad. The fact that it is illegal won't impede people from doing it. I wonder if zoophilist (sp?) people just have a sexual attraction for the animal or if some of them feel love and tenderness too. Now of course, we can never know about the animal's consent. :p
I see what you mean about everyone being equal, but I still think that men and women are more 'different' than equal. This is not a bad thing and that doesn't mean that one of them is superior to the other. Also, I think that every man is different from every other man, and it's the same for women. It's not a problem. But I still see what you mean and the sweetness of your idea.

[mazHur]

=Koa;504672] Although thinking about it it's cute to see men that are as naive as you... And thanks for reminding me that I'm better off without a man than with someone who thinks like that... (I'm not a flower, I'm a cactus!!! :D)

Oh, I love cactus. they taste so good !

I'm also better off without a woman but yet I like and love them, their feel


As for the matriarchal society, I had a look at the most obvious of sources, Wikipedia, which is quite interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
apparently antropologists agree that a human matriarchal society has never existed :( but there are some 'matrifocal' ones. I thought I had heard about matriarchal societies, like some tribes in Africa or Amazonia or such... Well that's just Wikipedia so I suppose many other sources and theories can be found, but that's a start.
Oh and there's a link to matriarchy in the USSR, haven't read it all yet but seems an interesting read
http://usachi.narod.ru/en/zhen-en.htm/

[/QUOTE]

thanks, I will check it out on the sites but what on earth is the need for a matriarchy?? Why women do not consent to stay side by side with men? why they refuse to sit behind when a man is riding the horse?? Pity!:( :D

[LadyW]

I am a supporter of women insofar love is concerned but I dont think they could be equal to men....impossible !:D

...why not?

[mazHur]

...why not?

natural !

[LadyW]

I see what you mean about everyone being equal, but I still think that men and women are more 'different' than equal. This is not a bad thing and that doesn't mean that one of them is superior to the other. Also, I think that every man is different from every other man, and it's the same for women. It's not a problem. But I still see what you mean and the sweetness of your idea.

I see your point, I do think there is a difference between the two genders of course. But one is not better than the other...
Totally, it would be a very dull place indeed if we were all the same which I why I am so glad the world is very diverse. I think individuality is what makes a person.
I am just in total shock that in this day and age some people are still under the illusion that men are superior to women... its almost comical.

[LadyW]

natural !

Please don't avoid my question mazHur. You made a very bold statement there; at least have the decency to tell me why that is so?
"Natural!" ? Elaborate, please.
:)

[mazHur]

I just wondered if for instance, a person loved an animal as others love their boyfriend or girlfriend, I wonder if it should be considered as being bad. The fact that it is illegal won't impede people from doing it. I wonder if zoophilist (sp?) people just have a sexual attraction for the animal or if some of them feel love and tenderness too. Now of course, we can never know about the animal's consent. :p
I see what you mean about everyone being equal, but I still think that men and women are more 'different' than equal. This is not a bad thing and that doesn't mean that one of them is superior to the other. Also, I think that every man is different from every other man, and it's the same for women. It's not a problem. But I still see what you mean and the sweetness of your idea.


zoophilia is used for treating VD or contracting AIDS,,,,if someone has inclination for it who can stop hm/her even if it's illegal? But it's hateful because it's like taking **** for available food !:( :D

emotional love or friendship with animals is okay.:)

[Sweets America]

I see your point, I do think there is a difference between the two genders of course. But one is not better than the other...
Totally, it would be a very dull place indeed if we were all the same which I why I am so glad the world is very diverse. I think individuality is what makes a person.
I am just in total shock that in this day and age some people are still under the illusion that men are superior to women... its almost comical.

Yes it seems strange indeed. But well, opinions can also depend on your background, your culture and such. I remember once I had discussed something with Pensive and we had a different view, and we saw that it was just a matter of cultural difference.
It might seem logical for you and me that men are not superior to women, but maybe MazHur has reasons to think otherwise, I don't know.

[LadyW]

It might seem logical for you and me that men are not superior to women, but maybe MazHur has reasons to think otherwise, I don't know.
Well if that is so then let him inform us of it...
:)

[mazHur]

I see your point, I do think there is a difference between the two genders of course. But one is not better than the other...
Totally, it would be a very dull place indeed if we were all the same which I why I am so glad the world is very diverse. I think individuality is what makes a person.
I am just in total shock that in this day and age some people are still under the illusion that men are superior to women... its almost comical.

why, men are better than women as gold is better than silver though both of them are different ! If this sounds comical to you then God bless !:D :( :)

[Sweets America]

why, men are better than women as gold is better than silver though both of them are different ! If this sounds comical to you then God bless !:D :( :)

What I think, dear Mr Butt, is that you are just trying to provoke people here. So, let me give you a goodnight kiss and go to bed, ok? :D

[LadyW]

why, men are better than women as gold is better than silver though both of them are different ! If this sounds comical to you then God bless !:D :( :)
Haha, I find it comical because it is so ridiculous.
If it is not, then elaborate, explain to me why men are better than women.
You have made such a bold statement and many would expect you to back it up, me being one of them.

[mazHur]

Well if that is so then let him inform us of it...
:)

Well, you girls are very adamant and hard to convince. I better go have a cold shower and think as to where God erred in creating this special species of women folk !!:lol:

Please note this thread asks 'what's wrong with being naked?"' and none of us has yet lent a thought to it!:D

[mazHur]

What I think, dear Mr Butt, is that you are just trying to provoke people here. So, let me give you a goodnight kiss and go to bed, ok? :D


so many girls bullying one man, unfair! anyway thanks for sharing and your precious 'parting kiss'',,,muah ! goodnight !:) :)

[LadyW]

Well, you girls are very adamant and hard to convince. I better go have a cold shower and think as to where God erred in creating this special species of women folk !!:lol:

Please note this thread asks 'what's wrong with being naked?"' and none of us has yet lent a thought to it!:D

I adressed the question a few pages ago...
Whereas you are avoiding my question. Therefore I cannot possibley accept what you are saying... I doubt I ever will. I hope your shower is very cold mazHur. :)

[Sweets America]

I adressed the question a few pages ago...
Whereas you are avoiding my question. Therefore I cannot possibley accept what you are saying... I doubt I ever will. I hope your shower is very cold mazHur. :)

Ah, you arrive too late, I have put MazHur to bed. He is now in the middle of a sweet dream in which men dominate the world. :D

[LadyW]

Ah, you arrive too late, I have put MazHur to bed. He is now in the middle of a sweet dream in which men dominate the world. :D

*Queue physco with pillow*
:lol: Just kidding...
You thought the ongoing battle with Lote was intense?
This guy isn't going to know whats hit him.

[mazHur]

Ah, you arrive too late, I have put MazHur to bed. He is now in the middle of a sweet dream in which men dominate the world. :D

not yet to bed, sweet. Just finished my shower and freezing with cold.....
here again, man needs woman for warmth and that's what she is good at !!:lol:

[Sweets America]

not yet to bed, sweet. Just finished my shower and freezing with cold.....
here again, man needs woman for warmth and that's what she is good at !!:lol:

I knew you were not off to bed yet. I saw you were watching us, big brother!
Woman is good at warming you up, but she's also good at throwing her fist to your face, sweetheart. :)
Mister Butt, your arguments are becoming worse and worse. :lol:

[mazHur]

I adressed the question a few pages ago...
Whereas you are avoiding my question. Therefore I cannot possibley accept what you are saying... I doubt I ever will. I hope your shower is very cold mazHur. :)

no, I am not avoiding your quesion, Infact I have already answered it.
yet another problem with women is that they arnt attentive most of the time and would keep beating about the bush in their zeal for supremacy over men:D !
Have you ever heard men vying for equal rights with women?? No. because they are intrinsically superior and destined to lead :)

[LadyW]

not yet to bed, sweet. Just finished my shower and freezing with cold.....
here again, man needs woman for warmth and that's what she is good at !!:lol:
Oh really now? Funny, I can be very cold if I wish to be.
Now, will you please answer my question.

[mazHur]

I knew you were not off to bed yet. I saw you were watching us, big brother!
Woman is good at warming you up, but she's also good at throwing her fist to your face, sweetheart. :)
Mister Butt, your arguments are becoming worse and worse. :lol:

Okay, then back to work. why be naked ??

[Sweets America]

no, I am not avoiding your quesion, Infact I have already answered it.
yet another problem with women is that they arnt attentive most of the time and would keep beating about the bush in their zeal for supremacy over men:D !
Have you ever heard men vying for equal rights with women?? No. because they are intrinsically superior and destined to lead :)

Since women cause you so many problems, why don't you turn gay? :D
Or, well, maybe you need a woman so that you can live in your own daydream of superiority. Some people need to step onto the others' feet to affirm their so-called superiority.

[mazHur]

Oh really now? Funny, I can be very cold if I wish to be.
Now, will you please answer my question.

what's your question. please??

If you are still stuck up with the question as to why men are superior to women then let be known that Adam came first, Eve was created from his rib, she seduced Adam and got him out of Eden. Thus a ''part'' cannot be equal to '' the whole'' !:) :D

[mazHur]

Since women cause you so many problems, why don't you turn gay? :D
Or, well, maybe you need a woman so that you can live in your own daydream of superiority. Some people need to step onto the others' feet to affirm their so-called superiority.

no need to turn gay as long as women exist on the planet and Mormon and Muslims allow to wed 4 to 5 women at a time:) :) :) I told you nothing better than a woman for a man,,,,,,,,,it's the greatest inebriation for him!

[LadyW]

what's your question. please??
If you are still stuck up with the question as to why men are superior to women then let be known that Adam came first, Eve was created from his rib, she seduced Adam and got him out of Eden. Thus a ''part'' cannot be equal to '' the whole'' !:) :D
My question has changed.
All the women you have been aquainted with, have you ever expressed these views to them? If so, what was their reaction if you please?

[Sweets America]

no need to turn gay as long as women exist on the planet and Mormon and Muslims allow to wed 4 to 5 women at a time:) :) :) I told you nothing better than a woman for a man,,,,,,,,,it's the greatest inebriation for him!

I think the effect you have on me, however, is worse than inebriation. You make me want to throw up. :)

[LadyW]

I think the effect you have on me, however, is worse than inebriation. You make me want to throw up. :)
I second that.

[mazHur]

My question has changed.
All the women you have been aquainted with, have you ever expressed these views to them? If so, what was their reaction if you please?

good question from a woman !

It all depends on your culture,,,
In eastern culture a woman doesnt mind sitting behind when the man is riding a horse. Maybe it's the opposite in the West.
In the east a man maintains his family and women do not have to work for a living. We have a patriarchal system and everybody is self-insured and provided with social security (like the Italians or the Chinese) We have great social life. Women are the rulers of mens hearts and homes and they have full liberty in all matters but ofcourse man demands fidelity in return for fidelity.
Generally our women are not much educated therefore they dont seem to be influenced by urge for equality with men by the Western women. that may seem like a negative point to you but here it gives a positive result in societal familial and marital matters.

Ofcourse , you may differ but I said the truth.
Women, like in the west, dont like dominating males, ofcourse. they have to treated with smooth love and tenderness

[mazHur]

I think the effect you have on me, however, is worse than inebriation. You make me want to throw up. :)


carry on with what you like,,,,I'd rather back out and prefer to go for a lesbian!!:lol:

[Sweets America]

carry on with what you like,,,,I'd rather back out and prefer to go for a lesbian!!:lol:

I love you too, Mister Butt. :)

[LadyW]

good question from a woman !

It all depends on your culture,,,
In eastern culture a woman doesnt mind sitting behind when the man is riding a horse. Maybe it's the opposite in the West.
In the east a man maintains his family and women do not have to work for a living. We have a patriarchal system and everybody is self-insured and provided with social security (like the Italians or the Chinese) We have great social life. Women are the rulers of mens hearts and homes and they have full liberty in all matters but ofcourse man demands fidelity in return for fidelity.
Generally our women are not much educated therefore they dont seem to be influenced by urge for equality with men by the Western women. that may seem like a negative point to you but here it gives a positive result in societal familial and marital matters.

Ofcourse , you may differ but I said the truth.
Women, like in the west, dont like dominating males, ofcourse. they have to treated with smooth love and tenderness

Ah, so it is a cultural matter...
Forgive me for my misunderstanding of the situation.
The urge to muffle you with a pillow as you sleep has now faded - slightly :)
I respect your cultural views and so you should therefore respect mine no matter how much we differ. So I donot see the need to purposefully attempt to aggravate people who obviously have a different view to yourself. That is wrong "Mr. Butt".

[Lote-Tree]

In the east a man maintains his family and women do not have to work for a living. We have a patriarchal system and everybody is self-insured and provided with social security


Ha ha :D are you talking about your native Pakistan?

[mazHur]

I love you too, Mister Butt. :)


here you are,,,, good girl. I love you too. This is the way a man expects a good girl to be !:) ;) ;)

[mazHur]

Ha ha :D are you talking about your native Pakistan?

Not only Pakistan but India ,South Asia and Japan.

[Sweets America]

here you are,,,, good girl. I love you too. This is the way a man expects a good girl to be !:) ;) ;)

The good girl can still throw her fist to your face, sweetheart, or, to another part of your anatomy. As you like. :)

[mazHur]

Ah, so it is a cultural matter...
Forgive me for my misunderstanding of the situation.
The urge to muffle you with a pillow as you sleep has now faded - slightly :)
I respect your cultural views and so you should therefore respect mine no matter how much we differ. So I donot see the need to purposefully attempt to aggravate people who obviously have a different view to yourself. That is wrong "Mr. Butt".


I appreciate and thank you for your understanding but in either case the life goes on its fixed track....neither you can change it nor I.:)

[mazHur]

The good girl can still throw her fist to your face, sweetheart, or, to another part of your anatomy. As you like. :)

No problem, I believe that man is made for woman and getting a jab by her in return for her love aint no bad bargain,,,,so buck up before cold overcomes me;) !

[PrinceMyshkin]

yet another problem with women is that they arnt attentive most of the time

But why would any intelligent woman be attentive to any one man such as you when she would already have heard the same programmed words out of every brain-washed man in her society?


and would keep beating about the bush in their zeal for supremacy over men:D !
Have you ever heard men vying for equal rights with women?? No. because they are intrinsically superior and destined to lead :)

You speak from within a culture in which a woman was sentenced to jail and to be whipped after she had been raped by three men! Men do not need to vie with women for equal rights because ever since the establishment of patriarchal societies, women have been held down, economically disadvantaged and treated as articles for the use of men.

You may speak of the social advantages of women in societies such as yours but have you ever really known a woman - I mean, as a living, thinking individual, rather than as an artifact or a social construct?

[Sweets America]

But why would any intelligent woman be attentive to any one man such as you when she would already have heard the same programmed words out of every brain-washed man in her society?



You speak from within a culture in which a woman was sentenced to jail and to be whipped after she had been raped by three men! Men do not need to vie with women for equal rights because ever since the establishment of patriarchal societies, women have been held down, economically disadvantaged and treated as articles for the use of men.

You may speak of the social advantages of women in societies such as yours but have you ever really known a woman - I mean, as a living, thinking individual, rather than as an artifact or a social construct?

My boyfriend has spoken! :D

[mazHur]

=PrinceMyshkin;504764]But why would any intelligent woman be attentive to any one man such as you when she would already have heard the same programmed words out of every brain-washed man in her society?


that's what you think,,,,,,let intelligent women speak for themselves



You speak from within a culture in which a woman was sentenced to jail and to be whipped after she had been raped by three men! Men do not need to vie with women for equal rights because ever since the establishment of patriarchal societies, women have been held down, economically disadvantaged and treated as articles for the use of men.


bull****! all propaganda ! Literacy rate in Pakistan is below 30 per cent, do you think you would be ready or were ever ready to give women their rights in such a condition??? read American history again, compare the conditions then you have the right to comment.:D

An oddity, a sparrow doesnt make spring!



You may speak of the social advantages of women in societies such as yours but have you ever really known a woman - I mean, as a living, thinking individual, rather than as an artifact or a social construct?


this is again a misconception ,,,,women enjoy more respect in our country than anywhere else. We love them as you love your wives, mothers, and sisters,,,,,,,,,as the case may be. Infact, all the domestic decisions are taken by women,,,,men dont meddle , they earn to maintain and keep their families happy. Women have all the civil rights but ofcourse lack of education and certain ugly and condemnable customs in some parts are burden on women. It's like the custom of ''satti'' or ''jauhar'' in Hindu India but inductionn of education has slowly uprooting thes illths. keep in mind Pakistan is yet a poor country and you cannot compare it with advanced countries with different prevailing conditions. Moreover, nothing above has to do with religion,,,,,those aare bad customs and we are voicing against them

[mazHur]

My boyfriend has spoken! :D

since when you made boyfriends with professors? do you know they are bright people!:)

[Sweets America]

since when you made boyfriends with professors? do you know they are bright people!:)

Eh? I don't get it.

[mazHur]

Eh? I don't get it.

here lies the diff between a man and a woman !:p :D

Try to understand,,,,,professors!:)

[mazHur]

Okay, good night everybody,
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz
it was nice having a most 'useful' and interesting discussion with you all !lol

[Sweets America]

here lies the diff between a man and a woman !:p :D

Try to understand,,,,,professors!:)

This was such an easy answer. :)

[mazHur]

This was such an easy answer. :)

here again,,,,,,,,,

just went to fetch my blanket as that's the only implement I have to get some warmth ! See why i said women are blessing for men !
long live women
long live Sweet!

[Sweets America]

here again,,,,,,,,,

just went to fetch my blanket as that's the only implement I have to get some warmth ! See why i said women are blessing for men !
long live women
long live Sweet!

Will you go to bed or not, God damnit! :D

[mazHur]

Will you go to bed or not, God damnit! :D

why are you shouting? am waiting for my girl friend to come and sing me some lullaby !;)

[mazHur]

hey, something weird just happened, Your ***** winked at me.....why??
is she drunk or me??

[crazefest456]

Ok guys. STOP. It's not funny...I'm just so disappointed right now at this maturity level (or the lack of).
Can we stick to the topic?
Thanks.

[kiz_paws]

yeah, I wondered what happened to Lote ...?

[SleepyWitch]

That is an interesting idea. But that would mean that men were all in temperate climates in the beginning? This is a possibility, but I don't know.

sorry if it's been said before (I haven't read the whole thread yet), but most whozzname anthropologists/archeologists/etc. believe all humans originated in East Africa, from where they later spread all around the world

[SleepyWitch]

After searching through the web sites, I am even more assured there has never been a matriarchal society. If they did, the feminists would be bragging about them everywhere. They would be on the cover of every feminists magazine, in every other documentary, on the lips of political rhetoric of all the feminists. Sorry they don't exist. How would a woman or group of women enforce their power. It's brute strength that enforces power.

so it's brute strength you want? :D you'd better hope I'll forget this comment soon because if I don't and if we ever meet in real life, you'll get to know Sleepy's famous lightspeed backhand :D :) j/k
anyway, maybe those feminists just didn't know about them because they are dumbass Eurocentric/US-centric Westerners? OK, I'll admit I haven't read the articles yet, so you may be right that they are not matriarchal according to your definition

[SleepyWitch]

:crash: :crash: :crash: Ahhhh!!! This thread is rediculous. All you nudists, do me a favor and go out and strip. I've had enough. I'm not coming back to this silly thread again. :p

yikes Virge... men are such bad losers... :p baaah, crazy nudists, crazy feminists, I'm not playing with you anymore :D this could have been so interesting after you admitted that men are dumb and want to be ruled by brute force

[SleepyWitch]

History says so , I don't.
There have been women leaders but they could not perform well. Men did have confidence in women, Joan of Arc is an example. Then there was the Bloody Mary of Scotland,,,,,who devoured men ! yet you want men to follow women?

Women are like flowers, they are beauty of this world, love of mens hearts,,,,but not good leaders, I suppose:alien: .

sorry but I resent being called a flower, unless you meant a cactus.
with all the couples I know, it's the woman who has to boss the man around because otherwise he'd never get anything done. besides, in your culture (and in mine, too, so please don't feel offended), men could never survive without their mummy who cooks for them and serves everything on a silver platter to them. And when they are grown up, they go straight from mummy to wify.
I mean, even a dog or cat can find its own food. if men are so strong and superior, why can't they even cook their own food? why do they depend on women like little babies?



In the east a man maintains his family and women do not have to work for a living.

disregarding housework and raising the children of course. and field work in the countryside. what about all those 'business' men who sit on their *rse and smoke hookah all day while the women work in the house? or German man guzzling beer while the women work, for that matter (I didn't mean it as an insult to your culture, we've got the same over here, the only difference is hookah vs beer)


as for women being delicate, and not able to do certain jobs. sorry to disappoint you. surveys by Geographers have shown that in 'traditional societies' (agrarian etc), women work much more than men. It is true that men do the heavy physical labour, but those are only short peaks once or twice a year. Women work in the field and at home throughout the whole year, every day of the year and they get less food to eat. A lot of the work they do is almost as heavy as the men's work.
one of my Geography profs studied this in Yasin-Valley (I think it's in Pakistan)
men usually do the following: ploughing the filed, ploughing the vegetable garden, sowing, spreading manure on the field, planting: 1-2 months a year (these all take place during the same 1-2 months), threshing: 2 months
herding goats and sheep (=not hard physical labour): 12 months
chopping wood: 4 months
women: weeding (physical labour) 3 months, milking the animals 12 months, feeding the animals 12 months, herding cows 5 months, processing milk (hard physical labour): 7 months, manuring the vegetable garden: 2 months, sowing vegetable garden: 2 months, irrigating the veg. garden: 5 months, harvesting in veg. garden: 6 months, drying fruid: 4 months
THIS IS EVEN WITHOUT COOKING, CLEANING, BAKING, WASHING etc which is all done by hand

shared work:irrigating the fields: 4 months, harvesting fields 3 months, harvesting fruit: 4 months

this is pretty much the way it's done in most agricultural societies (including western culture in the past). so who's delicate?


source: lecture, presentation... probably: 1. Herbers, H. & Stöber, G. 1995:
"Bergbäuerliche Viehhaltung in Yasin (Northern Areas, Pakistan): organisatorische und rechtliche Aspekte der Hochweidenutzung"
In: Petermanns Geographische Mitteilungen, vol. 139, pp. 87-104

[Pensive]

Holy crap, mazHUR, if you are joking then these are sick jokes I guess!


It all depends on your culture,,,
In eastern culture a woman doesnt mind sitting behind when the man is riding a horse. Maybe it's the opposite in the West.
In the east a man maintains his family and women do not have to work for a living.

Face reality for heaven's sake! Whom do you see working in farms, hospitals, and else-where? Women! Go in cotton factories, go in farms, go in homes and see who is working. Jeez, who feeds you with such things. Things might be different in 'middle-class' or 'upper-class' but for the poor people, it's all the same. Their women work as much, or even more than men. House work as well as jobs outside. And most of the Pakistani people are but poor people.


We have a patriarchal system and everybody is self-insured and provided with social security (like the Italians or the Chinese) We have great social life. Women are the rulers of mens hearts and homes and they have full liberty in all matters but ofcourse man demands fidelity in return for fidelity.

Hah. Self-insured.


Generally our women are not much educated therefore they dont seem to be influenced by urge for equality with men by the Western women. that may seem like a negative point to you but here it gives a positive result in societal familial and marital matters.

Very positive indeed. So positive that a woman herself fears to have a girl-child (again I would advise you to go to poor-homes).


Ofcourse , you may differ but I said the truth.
Women, like in the west, dont like dominating males, ofcourse. they have to treated with smooth love and tenderness

Haha, truth.

I don't think I am qualified to judge which culture is better, Western or Eastern, but the views mazHUR here has given have filled me with dismay (I hope he is not being serious). If that's how people think, then really it's a very very mad world, and shows not only Pakistani women, the men here are also illiterate...

[mazHur]

=Pensive;505006]Holy crap, mazHUR, if you are joking then these are sick jokes I guess!

It's getting New Year, baby. Cheer up and get out of your 'pensiveness'':)


Face reality for heaven's sake! Whom do you see working in farms, hospitals, and else-where? Women! Go in cotton factories, go in farms, go in homes and see who is working. Jeez, who feeds you with such things. Things might be different in 'middle-class' or 'upper-class' but for the poor people, it's all the same. Their women work as much, or even more than men. House work as well as jobs outside. And most of the Pakistani people are but poor people.


Who else is facing reality beside me ? YOU? Hmmm,,,,,,,,,

Stop mocking at the poor,,,,,poverty is no sin !

Like most agricultural countries, what if women work in farms,
what if poor women have to work in factories or offices? Dont they work in advanced countries? Don't you have to work for your sustenance?? To work is better than to beg, I suppose.






Hah. Self-insured.

what makes you feel so funny? what's wrong with self-insurance?? What's wrong if people take care of other people when governments wont do it?? Come and live here and you will realize ,,,,,,,,,




Very positive indeed. So positive that a woman herself fears to have a girl-child (again I would advise you to go to poor-homes).


No, you are mixing it up with India where girl foetus are being aborted. If you were right then the population of women in Pakistan wouldnt have been arounf 54 percent!
However, I may say that poor people prefer to have boys so that they dont have to bother about putting up dowry for the girls or perhaps they think boys can take care of themselves and are not a liability on parents. Worse come worse , boys may either join the army or work to augment income of their parents because women here dont have much work opportunities, not even men, so why grumble on this point?
These all are cultural and social problems and in no way related to our religion Islam . Moreover, as you seem to be from our part of the world but living a life of ''ease and luxury''
abroad, least serving its own country, Pakistan is just 60 years old ! do you think this short period is enough to shape the destiny of a nation?? You will atonce compare it to Japan etc but please realize Pakistan is a hotchpotch of different belligernt and unhappy ethnicities and sects and is not a true nation in the same sense it ought to be.

Haha, truth.


I don't think I am qualified to judge which culture is better, Western or Eastern, but the views mazHUR here has given have filled me with dismay (I hope he is not being serious). If that's how people think, then really it's a very very mad world.



BTW how old are you ? Why don't you check out in some good books on social and cultural histories of eastern and western blocks?? If not just try to learn the status of women in advanced countries like China and Japan,etc,,,,you would be further dismayed.


The curse of the poor countries is poverty,,,,,and illiteracy. You can't have sweet dreams with such ''gifts of nature'' plus bad leadership, can you???

[SleepyWitch]

Stop mocking at the poor,,,,,poverty is no sin !



sorry to butt in, but I don't think Pensy was mocking poverty at all. on the contrary, she was pointing out that a majority of people in her country are poor and poor women have to work very hard.

edit to add:
mazHur, could you please look at the figures about women's labour on farms I provided above and tell me how they go together with your perception of women as 'delicate'?

[mazHur]

sorry to butt in, but I don't think Pensy was mocking poverty at all. on the contrary, she was pointing out that a majority of people in her country are poor and poor women have to work very hard.

edit to add:
mazHur, could you please look at the figures about women's labour on farms I provided above and tell me how they go together with your perception of women as 'delicate'?

What's wrong with women working? are you against it?

where are the figures??


Who doesn't have to work hard?? In an agricultural country where modern equipment is not available, all have to join in to raise the crop and all take the harvest !

Working doesn't make a woman indelicate. If our women work you too,,, moreover you have to go to fitness clubs to maintain your health and ''delicacy'', don't you??

I know what pens. means and perhaps this is why she's not willing to face the harsh realities in her own country:D Pens. please come back and fill the ''vacuum'' , bring some ''revolution'' for the women folk!!:)

[SleepyWitch]

What's wrong with women working? are you against it?

where are the figures??


Who doesn't have to work hard?? In an agricultural country where modern equipment is not available, all have to join in to raise the crop and all take the harvest !

nope, I'm not against it. don't twist my words around :)

the figures are up there http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showpost.php?p=504975&postcount=231

didn't you say that women can't do all kinds of work? whereas these figures show that they actually work more than men.


Working doesn't make a woman indelicate. If our women work you too,,, moreover you have to go to fitness clubs to maintain your health and ''delicacy'', don't you??

nope, I don't go to fitness clubs. I do swim, though. but not to maintain my 'delicacy' but quite the opposite to become more athletic.


Working doesn't make a woman indelicate.
yes it does, if by delicate you mean "slim, easy to break/hurt, not strong" etc. in this case working (at least physical labour) makes women indelicate because it makes them strong, roughens their skin, gives them calluses etc.


If our women work you too,,,
heehee, are you implying I laze around on LitNet too much? well you could be right about that. but I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you. I've worked part-time ever since I was 14. first I did newspaper rounds, then I worked at a supermarket, then at a baker's and now I teach at university and do volunteer work with kids (besides studying and running a society for international students). I've also worked on a farm for a week, and lugged lumber on to a pick-up when I was only 7. The logs were about 1,20 metres long and very heavy and my 5 y/o brother and me carried them together. There was also a time when I didn't have access to a washing machine and had to wash my clothes by hand in the shower. I can tell you it wasn't fun, but this is nothing compared to the work women in other countries have to do on a daily basis.

[Pensive]

It's getting New Year, baby. Cheer up and get out of your 'pensiveness'':)



Who else is facing reality beside me ? YOU? Hmmm,,,,,,,,,

Stop mocking at the poor,,,,,poverty is no sin !

Like most agricultural countries, what if women work in farms,
what if poor women have to work in factories or offices? Dont they work in advanced countries? Don't you have to work for your sustenance?? To work is better than to beg, I suppose.







what makes you feel so funny? what's wrong with self-insurance?? What's wrong if people take care of other people when governments wont do it?? Come and live here and you will realize ,,,,,,,,,





No, you are mixing it up with India where girl foetus are being aborted. If you were right then the population of women in Pakistan wouldnt have been arounf 54 percent!
However, I may say that poor people prefer to have boys so that they dont have to bother about putting up dowry for the girls or perhaps they think boys can take care of themselves and are not a liability on parents. Worse come worse , boys may either join the army or work to augment income of their parents because women here dont have much work opportunities, not even men, so why grumble on this point?
These all are cultural and social problems and in no way related to our religion Islam . Moreover, as you seem to be from our part of the world but living a life of ''ease and luxury''
abroad, least serving its own country, Pakistan is just 60 years old ! do you think this short period is enough to shape the destiny of a nation?? You will atonce compare it to Japan etc but please realize Pakistan is a hotchpotch of different belligernt and unhappy ethnicities and sects and is not a true nation in the same sense it ought to be.

Haha, truth.




BTW how old are you ? Why don't you check out in some good books on social and cultural histories of eastern and western blocks?? If not just try to learn the status of women in advanced countries like China and Japan,etc,,,,you would be further dismayed.


The curse of the poor countries is poverty,,,,,and illiteracy. You can't have sweet dreams with such ''gifts of nature'' plus bad leadership, can you???

You are doing nothing but twising people's words around. Who is mocking the poor? Me or you?

Check your own words:


In the east a man maintains his family and women do not have to work for a living.

Man you need to get a reality check here!

And now you accept it yourself that for girls they have to have dowry...it's no use trying to have a friendly discussion with you.

[Lote-Tree]

Man you need to get a reality check here!

Don't worry those types...evolution will weed the out in time...it may take a while but evolution is very patient :D

Embrace modernity or die :D

Future is our Destination - past is our legacy :D

[mazHur]

SleepyWitch;504975]sorry but I resent being called a flower, unless you meant a cactus.
with all the couples I know, it's the woman who has to boss the man around because otherwise he'd never get anything done. besides, in your culture (and in mine, too, so please don't feel offended), men could never survive without their mummy who cooks for them and serves everything on a silver platter to them. And when they are grown up, they go straight from mummy to wify.
I mean, even a dog or cat can find its own food. if men are so strong and superior, why can't they even cook their own food? why do they depend on women like little babies?



Okay, if you insist I will call women cacti...but don't forget even they are a symbol of beauty and also serve as food !

Yes, men depend on women like babies because they are men ! they suckle their mums because they are yet naked !
they become wify because they get hit by nostalgia ! Isn't that good for women as well that they do 'everything ' to please them ?? What else does a woman demand of a man?? difficult creature God made for poor Adam !





disregarding housework and raising the children of course. and field work in the countryside. what about all those 'business' men who sit on their *rse and smoke hookah all day while the women work in the house? or German man guzzling beer while the women work, for that matter (I didn't mean it as an insult to your culture, we've got the same over here, the only difference is hookah vs beer)


I don't know about germans but what's wrong with men or even women having a fag to relieve them of the stress??
Dont you find men smoking in offices?? Dont you find women imitating them ?? They work alongside women ,,,nothing wrong with it?


as for women being delicate, and not able to do certain jobs. sorry to disappoint you. surveys by Geographers have shown that in 'traditional societies' (agrarian etc), women work much more than men. It is true that men do the heavy physical labour, but those are only short peaks once or twice a year. Women work in the field and at home throughout the whole year, every day of the year and they get less food to eat. A lot of the work they do is almost as heavy as the men's work.
one of my Geography profs studied this in Yasin-Valley (I think it's in Pakistan)
men usually do the following: ploughing the filed, ploughing the vegetable garden, sowing, spreading manure on the field, planting: 1-2 months a year (these all take place during the same 1-2 months), threshing: 2 months
herding goats and sheep (=not hard physical labour): 12 months
chopping wood: 4 months
women: weeding (physical labour) 3 months, milking the animals 12 months, feeding the animals 12 months, herding cows 5 months, processing milk (hard physical labour): 7 months, manuring the vegetable garden: 2 months, sowing vegetable garden: 2 months, irrigating the veg. garden: 5 months, harvesting in veg. garden: 6 months, drying fruid: 4 months
THIS IS EVEN WITHOUT COOKING, CLEANING, BAKING, WASHING etc which is all done by hand

shared work:irrigating the fields: 4 months, harvesting fields 3 months, harvesting fruit: 4 months

this is pretty much the way it's done in most agricultural societies (including western culture in the past). so who's delicate?


source: lecture, presentation... probably: 1. Herbers, H. & Stöber, G. 1995:
"Bergbäuerliche Viehhaltung in Yasin (Northern Areas, Pakistan): organisatorische und rechtliche Aspekte der Hochweidenutzung"
In: Petermanns Geographische Mitteilungen, vol. 139, pp. 87-104

Nevr heard of the Yasin-valley that you referred to. So had to check out on the web and regret to know that the survey oddly related to a tiny isolated place in the Himalayan mountain ranges where not only human access is normally impossible but all that women have to do is what they are doing to raise their families.(nnot for commercial purposes) A primitive clan (0.001 per cent of country's population)is not representative of the greater general situation in Pakistan which is quite different.

The report is utterly misleading and aimed at misleading unsuspecting folks or those who are not in the thick of it .:D :D :( .

[SleepyWitch]

Nevr heard of the Yasin-valley that you referred to. So had to check out on the web and regret to know that the survey oddly related to a tiny isolated place in the Himalayan mountain ranges where not only human access is normally impossible but all that women have to do is what they are doing to raise their families.(nnot for commercial purposes) A primitive clan (0.001 per cent of country's population)is not representative of the greater general situation in Pakistan which is quite different.

The report is utterly misleading and aimed at misleading unsuspecting folks or those who are not in the thick of it .:D :D :( .
nope, this report is not misleading, it was never meant to be representative of Pk as a whole and never claimed to be. It was meant to show how much work men and women do in agricultural societies and I guess the results would be similar for other places where agriculture is the main/only source of income. you can find the same in Africa and other parts of Asia and it would have been similar/ the same in the West a couple of centuries ago.

[PrinceMyshkin]

nope, this report is not misleading, it was never meant to be representative of Pk as a whole and never claimed to be. It was meant to show how much work men and women do in agricultural societies and I guess the results would be similar for other places where agriculture is the main/only source of income. you can find the same in Africa and other parts of Asia and it would have been similar/ the same in the West a couple of centuries ago.

The problem is, Frau Pepperkakehus, that you are endeavouring to debate facts with Dr. Pangloss!

[mazHur]

nope, this report is not misleading, it was never meant to be representative of Pk as a whole and never claimed to be. It was meant to show how much work men and women do in agricultural societies and I guess the results would be similar for other places where agriculture is the main/only source of income. you can find the same in Africa and other parts of Asia and it would have been similar/ the same in the West a couple of centuries ago.

Agriculture for subsistence is not the same as agriculture for commerce....

[crazefest456]

Don't worry those types...evolution will weed the out in time...it may take a while but evolution is very patient :D

Embrace modernity or die :D

Future is our Destination - past is our legacy :D

your geniusosity(so what if it's made up:p ) never ceases to amaze me!
[love the short stories, btw:thumbs_up ]

[Etienne]

Just a little testimony here. Mazhur says men do all the work for their families... I've been a few months in India, and honestly, in both Muslim and Hindu parts it seemed like only women and children worked in the fields and on the street it was almost only children (I am not talking about Tibetan and Nepali cultures where work seemed to be shared more equally, from what I've seen). The men were the ones in the shops sitting all day.

[mazHur]

Just a little testimony here. Mazhur says men do all the work for their families... I've been a few months in India, and honestly, in both Muslim and Hindu parts it seemed like only women and children worked in the fields and on the street it was almost only children (I am not talking about Tibetan and Nepali cultures where work seemed to be shared more equally, from what I've seen). The men were the ones in the shops sitting all day.

Et.
I agree with your observation but conditions in India and Pakistan are different.
In Pakistan you will not find any woman working in 99.99 per cent shops, the 0.01 percent you will find as sales girls in high class (4 or 5 star) stores or shops only and we dont have many such shops or stores here in Pakistan except for a few in big cities of Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad.

Women do work in certain industries such as fisheries,garments etc and are protected by govt regulations. Child labor was a scourge but it is now over after the EU objected to it. The factors, FYI, which promoite child labor are illiteracy ,poverty, lack of health care and unemployment. Some Kids still work with their parents in some mum-dad type cottage industries or workshops to support their families. However, this is not prominent.

Similarly educated women work in offices and skilled ones in factories but the main bulk of labor is males.

Recently too many begging children have been thrown on the street by some cult and their is a campaign going against it ,,,,,

Women do work in fileds but just for lending a helping hand to their men. Awareness is growing among people and they are sending their childrren to schools now.

The basic problem of Pakistan is feudal and tribal systme in some provinces and that's the biggest hurdle in the way of democracy. The democracy we have is not democracy in the real sense of the word....

Unless poverty is eliminated or curtailed and people educated you should not expect a poor country to be like a developed country,,,,that would be sheer cruelty and injustice !

[Hira]

I think it is very difficult, almost impossible to talk sense into a Pakistani man who somehow thinks he is inherently superior over women. Why try?

[mazHur]

I think it is very difficult, almost impossible to talk sense into a Pakistani man who somehow thinks he is inherently superior over women. Why try?

you don't have to......let you bring in some Indian man who is all out to destroy female human fetus before they see light of the day (world report)

[crazefest456]

you guys, it's useless to talk about superiority of one sex over the other, one race over the other, one religion over the other, because remember, we were all born equally innocent from some mother...
So lets not fight with our egos, aight?

[Sweets America]

you guys, it's useless to talk about superiority of one sex over the other, one race over the other, one religion over the other, because remember, we were all born equally innocent from some mother...
So lets not fight with our egos, aight?

I agree.

[LadyW]

you guys, it's useless to talk about superiority of one sex over the other, one race over the other, one religion over the other, because remember, we were all born equally innocent from some mother...
So lets not fight with our egos, aight?
Bravo! :D
Happy New Year Everyone.
Crazefest, my KillBill buddy :thumbs_up