Sir Gawain and the Green Knight

[quasimodo1]

This thread will probably be incredibly short; how many fan's can Sir Gawain have? There is a new verse translation available by Simon Armitage (198 pp W.W.Norton & Company, 25.95) The review from the Sunday NYTimes book review section is positive and called "A Stranger in Camelot". For the complete review... http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/16/books/review/Hirsch-t.html?8bu&emc=bu quasimodo1

[eyemaker]

....Hi there quasimodo1!!!...

[AuntShecky]

Yes, I am a fan of the Green Knight! (Sounds like a comic book hero, doesn't he?) Anyway, quite apropos for this time of year, as I believe the Tournament took place on
Christmas Day -- after which he was bidden to reappear after a year and a day, correct? And there was a grey-eyed
damsel, n'est ce pas? --meforgets her name.
We read this poem in the original way, way back in undergrad days, but it was SO long ago, I can't remember
if 'twere Old or Middle English!
i

[Petrarch's Love]

Hoorah! A thread for the Green Knight! Am dashing off to appointment now , but will post something more fruitful later. Oh, and the original is Middle English, Aunt Shecky. :)

[Virgil]

Oh I am definitely a fan, Quasi. Some day we should read it together. But I'm tied up with a lot of reading right now. Hey don't forget. We're going to do Virgil's Aeneid together soon. As soon as i finish Don Quixote, which should be around Christmas. So right after Christmas.

Petrarch - Are you up to reading The Aeneid with us? Larry the Leprechaun should be gone by then. :p ;)

[Quark]

Usually, the Tolkien translation gets preference. With Tolkien being both respected in academic circles and a juggernaut of nerd popularity, I would think this new version would have to be either quite accurate or very well-written to be anthologizes often.

[J.D.]

I'm a huge fan of Gawain and the Green Knight, particularly its allegorical depth. I recently wrote a short piece on the Tolkien version arguing that Gawain is a Christ figure, an Adam figure, and an Everyman figure all rolled into one. I was particularly interested in the wound the Green Knight inflicted on Gawain. I felt like that was a clear allusion to the Adam and Eve story--Adam was found wanting by God and was punished with mortality; Gawain is found wanting by the Green Knight and is punished with a reminder of his mortality, which began with Adam.

So, yes, I'm a bit of a geek. :)

[negoeyore]

I read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight translated by Burton Raffel and thought it was pretty good. Have you ever read the translation by J.R.R. Tolkien?

[Quark]

I'm a huge fan of Gawain and the Green Knight, particularly its allegorical depth. I recently wrote a short piece on the Tolkien version arguing that Gawain is a Christ figure, an Adam figure, and an Everyman figure all rolled into one. I was particularly interested in the wound the Green Knight inflicted on Gawain. I felt like that was a clear allusion to the Adam and Eve story--Adam was found wanting by God and was punished with mortality; Gawain is found wanting by the Green Knight and is punished with a reminder of his mortality, which began with Adam.

So, yes, I'm a bit of a geek. :)

I don't know if I would say that Gawain is all three at the same time. He begins the story believing that he is very god-like. He seems to consider himself the perfect knight. He even decks himself out with symbols like the five-pointed star which remind him of his perfection. In the end, though, he does err like Adam, and he realizes he's not perfect. So I guess you could interpret Gawain as moving from God to Adam to Everyman, but I would be a little reluctant to say he actually is all three.

[J.D.]

Quark--

I see what you're saying; but I didn't argue for Gawain as a God figure so much as a Christ figure. Allusions to the Christ story in literature generally focus less on his godliness and more on his sacrifice. When the Green Knight calls out Arthur's men, Gawain is the only one who steps forward to play the game. By taking on the weight of the challenge himself--by sacrificing himself--he saves Arthur and the other knights from death just as Jesus supposedly saved humankind by allowing himself to be crucified. Gawain sacrifices himself for the other knights' cowardice as Christ sacrificed himself for humankind's sins.

In addition, just as it is through Jesus' sacrifice that the "Good News" gets spread throughout the Roman Empire, Gawain returns with a story--a story with a message about upholding moral, chivalrous, Christian standards, and a story, too, that that Arthur and the other knights can learn from.

I don't know that I've said this as clearly or eloquently as I'd like, but there you go. Does it make sense?

[Petrarch's Love]

Certainly there are some Christ-like parallels in the Gawain story (though, I suppose I could be cheeky and ask someone to find a Medieval story without allusions to Christ ;)). J.D. has brought out an interpretation of Gawain offering himself as sacrifice, and clearly the temptations the lady offers could be compared to the temptations that Christ refuses. At the same time, I'm not sure that I could unproblematically say that Gawain functions as a Christ figure. Are his motives when taking on the challenge at the beginning really to selflessly sacrifice, or is it pride and assurance of his own strength that leads him to take it on? In the story he is testing the extent of his own virtue and finding the extent of his own flaws. I think rather than interpret him as a Christ figure, it's more interesting to think of him in terms of a man who is doing the best that any man can do to imitate Christ and to make his way in the world. Perhaps a knight with a WWJD bracelet around his gauntlet (a green one of course). :p


Petrarch - Are you up to reading The Aeneid with us? Larry the Leprechaun should be gone by then.

I may be up for that post Larry visit. I read it recently for my exams and that's one I know pretty well anyway, so I may not re-read it word for word along with you guys, but I could skim and refresh where necessary and take part in the conversations. Is this going on in the book club, or on the Virgil thread? By the way, are you guys still discussing Don Quixote somewhere? I've recently started reading it, and might like to look back on what sort of discussion you had while going through it. :)

[J.D.]

Well said, Petrarch's Love. I didn't mean to imply that there were perfect correlations between Gawain and Christ, only that there were parallels--just as there are parallels between Gawain and Adam, etc. And, as you point out, this shouldn't be surprising, whether it was intentionally played up by the poet or not, since the brains and hearts of medieval poets would have been saturated in the religious themes of sacrifice, temptation, and the shortcomings of man in God's eyes.

What you all have said regarding Gawain has me consider revising the piece I wrote. I appreciate the good conversation.

[Petrarch's Love]

Well said, Petrarch's Love. I didn't mean to imply that there were perfect correlations between Gawain and Christ, only that there were parallels--just as there are parallels between Gawain and Adam, etc. And, as you point out, this shouldn't be surprising, whether it was intentionally played up by the poet or not, since the brains and hearts of medieval poets would have been saturated in the religious themes of sacrifice, temptation, and the shortcomings of man in God's eyes.

What you all have said regarding Gawain has me consider revising the piece I wrote. I appreciate the good conversation.

Hi JD--Yes, I assumed that you were presenting one strand of interpretation rather than suggesting a perfect correlation, and I just thought I'd add to the conversation. Glad if some of my comments were helpful. You mention a paper on Gawain. Are you writing as a student or a scholar? I've never had a chance to write on it, but I might get to teach it for the first time next year, which I think would be lots of fun.

[J.D.]

Hi JD--Yes, I assumed that you were presenting one strand of interpretation rather than suggesting a perfect correlation, and I just thought I'd add to the conversation. Glad if some of my comments were helpful. You mention a paper on Gawain. Are you writing as a student or a scholar? I've never had a chance to write on it, but I might get to teach it for the first time next year, which I think would be lots of fun.


Petrarch's Love--

I'm writing a pseudo-scholarly paper, which is to say that I hope it'll be scholarly but don't know if it'll be any good when it's done. I'm not a paid academic. My MFA and my publication credits are all in creative writing--fiction writing specifically--and I never considered actually writing to publish scholarly work. Lately I've revised that opinion. To call me an independent scholar would be too kind--I work when I'm not grading papers, planning lessons, attending professional development seminars, or loving my wife. To call me a failed fiction writer would be too harsh--I still tap out the occasional short story here and there, and my talent hasn't waned, so far as I can tell, just the rabid interest in fiction writing that once consumed me.

But I've had a revival of interest in classical/classic literature over the last year or two, and the more I've read what's out there concerning some canonical works, the more I'm convinced I might be able to contribute something, albeit something quite small, of my own. If nobody likes it, that's fine, too. At least I took the time to form my own opinions and think about major works of literature, rather than just breezing through them, know what I mean?

[Petrarch's Love]

Petrarch's Love--

I'm writing a pseudo-scholarly paper, which is to say that I hope it'll be scholarly but don't know if it'll be any good when it's done. I'm not a paid academic. My MFA and my publication credits are all in creative writing--fiction writing specifically--and I never considered actually writing to publish scholarly work. Lately I've revised that opinion. To call me an independent scholar would be too kind--I work when I'm not grading papers, planning lessons, attending professional development seminars, or loving my wife. To call me a failed fiction writer would be too harsh--I still tap out the occasional short story here and there, and my talent hasn't waned, so far as I can tell, just the rabid interest in fiction writing that once consumed me.

But I've had a revival of interest in classical/classic literature over the last year or two, and the more I've read what's out there concerning some canonical works, the more I'm convinced I might be able to contribute something, albeit something quite small, of my own. If nobody likes it, that's fine, too. At least I took the time to form my own opinions and think about major works of literature, rather than just breezing through them, know what I mean?

Sounds like you have a wonderful array of literary interests afloat. Also sounds like you can safely call yourself an independent scholar to me. ;) I know exactly what you mean about wanting to think through and write out your own opinions about some works, but then I guess that's why I'm a grad. student. :p I always think it's wonderful to hear about someone doing a bit of independent scholarship just for the joy of it. Hope your thoughts and research on Gawain are shaping up nicely.

[quasimodo1]

To Petrarch's Love" Your talent seems on the rise, not the wane. And what a great job you have. quasi

[Petrarch's Love]

Thanks, Quasi. I do indeed count myself fortunate to be going into my profession, though it will be even better when I've finally got this PhD thing and am actually getting paid full time. :D

[sithkittie]

Hi..this is my first post in the main forums. :wave: I hope I'm not stepping on any toes... and this thread has been dead for three years.

Anyway, I have a question about editions of this poem (I hope this is an okay place to ask). I have this version, by W.S. Merwin (http://www.amazon.com/Gawain-Green-Knight-W-S-Merwin/dp/0375709924/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1292313773&sr=8-7), which I got because it's "parallel text" (though not really, since it's an e-book) and even though I can't understand all of the original text, I prefer to fight through it. I don't, in general, like translations. I would rather a parallel glossary, or something, to help me break down the words I don't know and understand them. I found a website a long time ago for Canterbury Tales that basically modernized some spellings and had a footnoted glossary, and I really liked that. It was annoying to read on the computer, but that's pretty much what I'm looking for. Is there anything like that?

Also, has anybody else noticed that Gawain is pretty much saintly in this when he pretty much fails as a knight in Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur? I just thought I'd note that... Previous posters were talking about him as Christ-like, and that reminded me of my surprise at that bit when I read this. That was definitely not what I expected.

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi SithKittie--Welcome to the forums. Glad you chose to honor Sir Gawain and the Green Knight with your first main forum post. It seems appropriate to resurrect this thread just before Christmas and the start of the New Year. I'm away from my many editions of SGGK at the moment and can't remember which editions might be best in terms of supplementing the vocabulary at the moment (perhaps Wilde Woman will drop by and make a suggestion), but facing page translation is always a good way to start. This Harvard site has a wealth of resources for helping people learn Middle English, http://metro.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k15189&pageid=icb.page72282 and if you click on the link for the Gawain poet and then on "platform one" it gives you some exercises and a link to the main glossary.

If you really get into Middle English, you should also be aware of the MED (Middle English Dictionary), available online here: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/

Got to run for now.

[sithkittie]

Ooh, thank you for the links! I might spend Christmas Eve puzzling through a bit of that again.

[Wilde woman]

Hi Petrarch! Long time, no see....

In response to sithkittie, I read SGGK in my undergrad Middle English class, so we were expected to read it in the ME, but our professor also had as buy the Marie Borroff translation to consult the intro and notes. (I want to say one of the editions I read was a facing page translation, but I don't remember if it was the Borroff.) Between the two translations I've read (I don't remember the other one and I can't check since I don't have my books here with me...sorry), I liked Borroff's better. She does a really nice job keeping the alliteration and the bob-and-wheel structure. Sorry that wasn't very helpful...I can give you more info when I get back to my books in January. I know I have an edition with an ME glossary in the back somewhere. But yeah, Petrarch's link to the MED is indispensable.

I just checked amazon and apparently, Borroff's translation has just been re-released as a new Norton edition, with tons of critical essays that I've come to love about Norton. I see the names of some highly respected medievalists listed among the contributors. EEK! That's exciting. I may run out and get it myself. :D Here's the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Gawain-Knight-Norton-Critical-Editions/dp/0393930254/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293134556&sr=1-4

I've heard good things about the new Simon Armitage translation, though I haven't had the chance to read it myself yet. And the Tolkein translation is one of those things that I keep meaning to read, but haven't yet gotten to.


And there was a grey-eyed damsel, n'est ce pas? --meforgets her name.

Oui. Her name is not really given, unless it's in relation to her husband. The poem calls her Lady Bertilak, I believe. (BTW, does anyone have any theories on the etymology of "Bertilak"?)


Perhaps a knight with a WWJD bracelet around his gauntlet (a green one of course).

Thanks, Petrarch. This image will be stuck in my head every time I reread SGGK. :hand: The bracelet must feature a pentagram somewhere, right? This reminds me a conference my university had last year for Robin Hood. Our department cranked out just those kinds of (green) rubber bracelets, but with Robin Hood instead of Jesus. I wear mine with pride. :D

[Petrarch's Love]

Hi Petrarch! Long time, no see....

Hi Wilde Woman! Hope you're getting some rest from the rigours of grad. student life over the break. I'm actually taking today and tomorrow off dissertating. :banana:



I just checked amazon and apparently, Borroff's translation has just been re-released as a new Norton edition, with tons of critical essays that I've come to love about Norton. I see the names of some highly respected medievalists listed among the contributors. EEK! That's exciting. I may run out and get it myself. :D Here's the link:

http://www.amazon.com/Gawain-Knight-Norton-Critical-Editions/dp/0393930254/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293134556&sr=1-4

Wow, that looks great. Got to check it out! (Darn, just when the Christmas gift list season is over. :D)


I've heard good things about the new Simon Armitage translation, though I haven't had the chance to read it myself yet. And the Tolkein translation is one of those things that I keep meaning to read, but haven't yet gotten to.


I haven't read the Armitage translation either. I like the Tolkein translation. Definitely worth the read. I'm assuming you have the Tolkein/Gordon edition of the original, which is a must for any Medievalist. I wonder if that one comes in hard cover. My copy fell into pieces after I wrote my SGGK chapter, and the duct tape isn't working so well anymore.



Thanks, Petrarch. This image will be stuck in my head every time I reread SGGK. :hand: The bracelet must feature a pentagram somewhere, right? This reminds me a conference my university had last year for Robin Hood. Our department cranked out just those kinds of (green) rubber bracelets, but with Robin Hood instead of Jesus. I wear mine with pride. :D
:lol: That post was from a few years ago, so I had forgotten about it. I should start using that annalogy in the classroom. I am so jealous of your cool rubber Robin Hood bracelet. Why doesn't my department give us spiffy Medievalist accessories? :cryin::D I do, however, have an amazing pewter St. George medal with the knight fighting the dragon and the 'honi soit que mal y pense' logo around it, which I wear strung on a ribbon and am planning to sport on at least one day of the MLA in a few weeks. (If you in any way desire such an object, I can PM you the site where it may be procured at a grad. student friendly price).

[Wilde woman]

Glad you get a few days off dissertating for Xmas. It must be nice to spend the holidays recovering your sanity. :yesnod:


I'm assuming you have the Tolkein/Gordon edition of the original, which is a must for any Medievalist. I wonder if that one comes in hard cover. My copy fell into pieces after I wrote my SGGK chapter, and the duct tape isn't working so well anymore.

I'm ashamed to say I don't own the Tolkein translation yet, but now I know which one to go for. One version I've been eying on amazon includes Tolkein's translation of another favorite, Sir Orfeo: http://www.amazon.com/Gawain-Green-Knight-Pearl-Orfeo/dp/0345277600/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293306170&sr=1-1

Have you read it and, if so, would you recommend his translation?


I do, however, have an amazing pewter St. George medal with the knight fighting the dragon and the 'honi soit que mal y pense' logo around it, which I wear strung on a ribbon and am planning to sport on at least one day of the MLA in a few weeks. (If you in any way desire such an object, I can PM you the site where it may be procured at a grad. student friendly price).

That sounds unspeakably cool. Please do share the link! I'm not worthy enough to go to the MLA conference yet :D (where is it being held?), but I'm probably going to go with my department to Kalamazoo in the spring. It'll be my first experience at a conference, and I hear it's amazing. :thumbsup: