Optimist vs. Pessimist (The Debate Game)

[RoCKiTcZa]

Now here's a game we would probably call "Barahan Game" in our homeland, in which one participate counters the other's words with his own in sort of friendly debate. :)

The first participant plays the optimist, who begins with an optimistic line. Then the next poster counters with pessimistic statements.

Ex.
(O) Litnet is cool.
(P) But with the computer on for so long, it’s a waste of electricity.
(O)But there are many alternative sources of electricity.
(P) But alternative sources aren’t as reliable.
(O) At least there is electricity, that’s what matters.
And so on…

Or for a less serious subject…
(O) I like black. It’s mysterious, emo and cool.
(P) To me, black is simply too dreadful. It looks like the color of death.
(O) Why must we fear death?
(P) Because dead people are scary?
(O) But no one would notice that when you’re six feet under the ground.
(P) I would.
(O) But your soul wouldn’t stay to be eaten by maggots; it’d journey on to heaven.
(P) I’ve sinned too much; I’d probably go to hell.
(O) There’s still hope. Don’t give up on it just yet.
(P) *taunting voice* Angel-wangel…
(O) Why, angels are cute.
(P) In drawings maybe.

Just remember to always respect others and their beliefs…optimists feel free to mediate in the midst of a heated debate, pessimists too (but please don’t break the flow of the game)… never allow personal issues to get in the way… promote peace not hatred… remember, this game was only made for pure enjoyment!

Here's my optimistic statement:

(+) I want to eat.

[barbara0207]

There might be too many calories in what you want to eat.

[andave_ya]

But isn't the enjoyment you get from them worth it?

[thescholar]

but gym memberships are highway robbery

[Dori]

(+) There are other alternatives to losing weight.

[thescholar]

yes, but those alternatives are obesity

[Oniw17]

there's always surgery

[crazefest456]

but there are lots of reported fatalities due to incompetent surgeons..

[Remarkable]

But as long as one feels happy with oneself,most of what's legal is accepted.

[crazefest456]

To attain happiness through painful means of self mutilation should not be legal..

[RoCKiTcZa]

(+) Doesn't matter at all, as long as these people end up happy!

[Oniw17]

Happiness is a sin, adversity breeds greatness. By promoting happiness, you promote mediocracy.

[Pendragon]

Are you suggesting I starve myself just because I don't meet standards of height/weight I had nothing to do with creating?

[Oniw17]

(-)I suggest you set some standards for yourself instead of taking everyone else's word on what's perfect like a little puppet obeying a big puppet. I doubt you'll take my advice though, likely you're just like everyone else(just playing the pessimist of course, no offense intended).

[AdoreroDio]

If normal is what you want to be then wouldn't that be considered a good thing to achieve?

[crazefest456]

striving to be normal is like turning into headless sheep, just trotting around to the sound of a bell

(I love acting pessimistic-- takes everything out of my system :))

[NikolaiI]

sheep get lots of grass though.
plus you can contemplate life while grazing. :)

oh wait, we're headless?
then we clunk over and float away to sheep heaven. :)

[crazefest456]

sheep heaven, feh, where god will make the poor sheepies assimilate with the clouds!

[Shalot]

But God is good, and sheep don't care - they're fluffy and cute. And clouds make rain and rain makes the grass grow.

[Pendragon]

Since rain falls on the just and the unjust, according to scripture, it also makes the dang weeds grow in my driveway!

[barbara0207]

But weeds can be useful, too. Think of nettles. Some people use them for tea, others put them in cheese ...

[Oniw17]

Cheese is a dairy product, and dairy products have to potential to cause bone deterioration.

[Shalot]

Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Deterioration is a natural part of the cycle. Yay for deterioration. Yay for nature! Let's all deterorate together!! yay for spelling deterioration. Woo hooooo deteriorate!!

[Oniw17]

Death and deterioration are both horrible things; you're pretty deluded if you think otherwise. In death you lose the one thing you have, your consciousness. To deteriorate is to slowly, but surely, lose your very being. Both are very horrible indeed.

[RoCKiTcZa]

(+) Aww, come on, Shalot's right. I do want to live forever, but that is only a dream, for everyone must die. It's part of the natural cycle of life. So let's all enjoy our lives 'til the day we die... and enjoy death just the same when the time comes for us to, well, meet our maker! Woohoo! At last! :D

[Oniw17]

Of course, everyone must die, and you can't even live forever figuratively, since eventually the sun will die too. That means that everything you do in life is meaningless, just like your life itself. Every human being on the planet shuould burn everything within 100 m^2 of them before offing thmselves.

[RoCKiTcZa]

(+) I don't care. When a person does something, he does it because he wants to make a temporary difference for the world. He doesn't care if it turns out useless in the end. At least he has done something for the world that would matter for a certain period of time. After all, he will receive credit for that in the afterlife.

[Oniw17]

(-) You have a high opinion of most people don't you? When a person does something, most of the time it's what is immediately beneficial to themselves which directs their actions. Most people don't even ponder the effects of their actions later on in life, let alone an afterlife that may or may not exist. Look at how many people in developed countries who are in debt; why do you think communism doesn't work in large groups. People are nothing like you paint them.

[andave_ya]

(+) but how can you know that people are nothing like you paint them? There are bound to be people with secret longings to be noble and pure and courageous, just like I long to be. And as long as there is one person on the planet who honors those principles, the results of their actions will tend towards the better.

[Oniw17]

(-)Alas, most people don't resemble the one you're talking about. Look around.

[andave_ya]

(+) Aw, cummon, don't the 50+ regular posters here prove my point?

[RoCKiTcZa]

(-) Like me? Dunno. Anyways, what's the big deal... time for a change of subject.

(It feels real odd to be on the negative side this time when earlier ago I was defending the positive team! arrrrggghhh)

[AimusSage]

(+) But this topic is like... the best topic. Ever. :lol:

[Pendragon]

Yeah? Why then does everyone seem bored out of their skulls? (-)

[barbara0207]

+ Who's bored? The thread seems pretty busy.

[Shalot]

(-) busy busy busy. can't people just STOP for just a minute? why is it necessary to be so BUSY?

[crazefest456]

Occupying yourself with work prevents depression

[symphony]

oh but it's always so cool to be busy and buzzy. that way u can avoid boredom.

edit: :D u were faster, craze!
(-) but depression crawls in when there's too much work!

[andave_ya]

Depression sparks brilliance?

[crazefest456]

but brilliance induced by depression causes an uproar among society: eg. nirvana

sorry symph...I keep doing that (or the reverse) to you nowadays.. it's confusing!

[symphony]

brilliance is brilliance, though. the uproar makes it all cooler! ;)

[crazefest456]

is instability cool?!

[Oniw17]

(+)Yes. It's only in chaos that great people are allowed to shine.

[crazefest456]

only great people? how about the introverts-- isn't that discriminant of chaos?

[Oniw17]

(+)Introverts can be great people too. In fact, I would contend that most great people are introverts.

[crazefest456]

(-)introverts have to assert their great-ness to be great. Unfortunately, they don't because of their nature

[Oniw17]

(+)That's non-sense, Newton and Neitzsche were hardly extroverts, and they asserted their greatness rather well.

[crazefest456]

both are excessively criticized today- wouldn't that reduce their said "greatness"?

[Oniw17]

No, their names are being spread even more by their criticissms.

On a serious note, why is newton being criticised? Is it something to do with religion?

[crazefest456]

I thought it was because some of his later theories have lots of flaws in them...I don't really know much about his religious beliefs (except that "god doesn't play dice with the universe" quote-- as a response to the quantum theory...right? maybe that's it, because Hawking lashed out at that statement. But some of Hawking's theories are being disproven nowadays-- I'm not sure though)

(-)So are ruthless dictators' names but none have really been good to us.

[Oniw17]

(+)Does that mean that they weren't great people?

[crazefest456]

(-)yes, because isn't greatness a result of one's good/beneficial actions?



i'm obviously losing this debate :)

[Oniw17]

(+)No, greatness is one and the same with notability. Dictators are just as great as conquerors, with the exception being that the conquerors wrote history and not the dictators.

[crazefest456]

(-)how can someone define greatness when history, itself, is biased? Wouldn't the conquerors exaggerate while recording the conflicts with the dictators (showing the latter as very formidable adversaries to accentuate their own greatness, relatively)?

[Oniw17]

(+)Yes, the same way they might exaggerate the wrongs of the so-called evil dictators. Isn't it possible that some dictators havedone nothing at all wrong? Or that some conquerors were essentially dictators?

[crazefest456]

(-) Exactly, exaggerating the wrongs of others inflates the dictators' previously nonexistent "greatness". Hence, we cannot determine a dictators' or conquerors' greatness relative to their popularity.

[Oniw17]

(+) Neither can you say that no supposedly ruthless dictator has done us much good.

[crazefest456]

oh no, I've started to debate with myself!!
(-)But what good has come from these dictators that bring paranoia and stricter societal norms?

[Oniw17]

(+) What good has come from any of us? What is good but a subjective term used to describe one's opinion about a certain subject? Is equality good? Does communism promote equality? Was Lenin really such a bad guy(you could argue that Lenin wasn't a dictator if you wanted but..)? Paranoia is synonomous with preparation.

[crazefest456]

sorry, I think I'll sleep now..It's almost dawn here...had fun!

[Pendragon]

(+) What good has come from any of us? What is good but a subjective term used to describe one's opinion about a certain subject? Is equality good? Does communism promote equality? Was Lenin really such a bad guy(you could argue that Lenin wasn't a dictator if you wanted but..)? Paranoia is synonomous with preparation.(-) Oh you're the type of person who'd look for bones in animal cookies. Lenin wasn't any boy scout, and they only hung on to his body to make sure he was dead. Can't have somebody come back around ya know. Ya watch that body and make sure the rascal don't get back up! (-)

[crazefest456]

poor Lenin; aren't we all god's creation?

[Remarkable]

Does God really exist?And if he does,why is that neccesarily a good thing?I mean,look at the world today...God isn't doing anything to help it...

[crazefest456]

What hope would little children, (and adults) be left with if God didn't exist?

[Oniw17]

(-)Exactly what they have now, a bunch of superficial BS, pleasure, pain, and consciousness. In other words, nothing.

[Shalot]

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

there's a time for everything and a time for nothing.
there's a time to laugh and a time to cry
there's a time to be be happy and a time to be sad
there's a time when we feel certain and other times when we're certainly uncertain and the fact that nothing remains static is very positive.

[Oniw17]

(-)How poetic. Poetry is rarely realistic, sadly.

[crazefest456]

(+) Poetry is a form of realism; its free-form structure does not determine its validity..

[RoCKiTcZa]

(-) For most poetrs, poetry is only a method of release. Like punching a pillow to release one's anger. So what's the big deal.

[crazefest456]

(+) But that release is a piece of art. Imagine capturing your emotions in this vaccum of a world...

[RoCKiTcZa]

(-) Then punching a pillow to release emotions is also an art? Even the most boring things? Aww... what a horrid world. Everything is art. How boring can art get?

[Remarkable]

(+)Well,punching a pillow is more art than killing a man.By releasing our negative emotions unharmfuly we get rid of them.Oh,and poetry helps doing that.And,has anyone ever thought whatwould the world be without poetry?Just a boring little place full of calculations and people who punch pillows because they don't have what else to do exept counting.

[crazefest456]

(-) Doesn't releasing negative emotions increase the world's negative sentiments? Why do it at all through pillows and poetry, alike?

[Remarkable]

(+)Well,keep your sentiments in and you'll find yourself full of hate and wanting to do something you don't dare to think of.
I'm speaking about a harmful release,step by step,instead of letting it collect and explote as the most dangerous of actions.

[Wyoecho]

(-) Hate is what rules the world. There is far more hate in the world than any other emotion. Just look around and see for yourself!

[Dori]

(+) That's preposterous! I look around and see more people smiling than baring their teeth. Besides, nature rules the world, not hatred.


(+)Well,punching a pillow is more art than killing a man.By releasing our negative emotions unharmfuly we get rid of them.Oh,and poetry helps doing that.And,has anyone ever thought whatwould the world be without poetry?Just a boring little place full of calculations and people who punch pillows because they don't have what else to do exept counting.

I couldn't resist:

(-) "A good chemist is twenty times as useful as any poet." (from Fathers and Sons)

[RoCKiTcZa]

(+) Yet what would happen if there were no poets in the world? Poets make the world a more cheerful place by uplifting people's spirits with their poems. If all the chemists in the world got depressed... who would be there to cheer them up so they can go on with their work if all the psychiatrists could not fix them?

[Dori]

(-) Poetry is not the only thing in the world that cheers people up. It's very dependant on the sort of person.

[RoCKiTcZa]

(+) Say, is that it? Could you name an example of a person who hates poetry? In the real world.

[Pendragon]

(-) Kids who have to recite the blame stuff in English class! Nevermore this, Raven!

[RoCKiTcZa]

(+) But it is only that certain incident that triggers their hatred towards poetry. This does not mean that they will continue to hate poetry for their whole lives. In fact I myself like poetry so much but came to hate it once because of the poem-interpretation stuff we did in English class and the "stiff subjectivity" of it all.

[Pendragon]

(-) Oh come on! Tell me you sit and obsess over Leaves of Grass! It could be read aloud in the garden to bore insects off your vegetables! :rolleyes:

[RoCKiTcZa]

(+) With nothing to do, I'd read it anyway.

[Pendragon]

(-) Egads! The more people have to do, the more bored they are! They have computers, ipods, blackberries, TV, Video, DVDm CD's, God only knows how many electronic game players getting ever closer to a holodeck, books, shopping malls, resorts, theme parks, restaurants, cars, motorcycles, scooters, bicycles, and they are BORED! Heavens! When I was a kid, I could play with a stick for a gun and we didn't even own a TV! :crash:

[RoCKiTcZa]

(+) I am at home with my cell phone, computer, and internet connection. With my techie items, I am never bored. Those people are only bored because they choose to be bored. They refuse to explore the capabilities of the things they already possess; instead, they go along tinkering with their stuff while they are new and throw them away because they do not wish to make use of these items to go any further.

[Dori]

(-) And what do you represent? One of the billions of people that inhabit this earth? Forgive me for saying, but your situation is quite insignificant.

[Pendragon]

(+) But just as a journey of a thousand miles must begin with one step, one voice and one person can make a difference among the billions on the earth, if one has the courage to stand up and make one's voice be heard. Every freedom change and every invention started as an idea in one person's mind, you know...

[Dori]

(-) If, if, only if...

And who says every invention started as an idea in one person's mind? If I remember correctly, Calculus was invented by both Leibniz and Newton independantly of each other. It was just a matter of who published their work first.

[Pendragon]

(+) Oh, come on, that is nitpicking. You used the word "independently" yourself. And stated: "It was just a matter of who published their work first." That proves my point that one person can make great change by speaking up and letting their voice be heard. By your own pessimism you prove that being optimistic works! http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/fairyandfriend.gif

[Oniw17]

(-) That man could also end up like Mr. King or Socrates, or perhaps even Jesus.:sick:

[Pendragon]

(+) Who all firmly believed that if your cause was just, it was well worth dying for, and none of the three gave blood in vain, for they inspired others to raise up agaist oppression and oppression had to give way. Others also lost their lives for the causes these men represented and still represent, but the oppression did give way to freedom! And freedom is what man is looking for in the end! :thumbs_up

[Oniw17]

(-) True freedom is the torture which can only be experienced by a theoretical omnimax god. In order to be free of all things, you must control all things, but to control all things is to give up all that's good in life. No more would surprise exist and any subjective feelings you could possibly have would be dictated by yourself; in other words, it would all be fake. Eventually your limitless freedom would turn you into a sadist and you would cause similar torture in the sentient beings among those you control.

[Pendragon]

(+) I'm sorry, but that is such self-centered twaddle! One is free if one is able to make choices, not if one is able to control the universe. One understands that things will not always go one's way. But one has the choice about whether to sit and sulk because of setbacks or whether to let them make one stronger and go on. When one is under the oppression of someone who makes every decision for one there is no freedom. So making choices is a freedom whatever the cost! Let freedom ring!

[Dori]

(-) Are we free to make our own choices? Surely we can't be free if free will does not even exist.

[Pendragon]

(+) Pish-tosh! In order to make that claim you must prove it and it is impossible to prove that something such as free will doesn't exist, for you might be exercising your own free will in order to do so! You say you are acting on random impulse that was in the endless threads of fate and bound to happen anyway no matter your choice. Until the moment, you knew nothing about it, so you had choices, stand or walk away. You moved not the universe. Hello? :nod: (When did this become the philosophy thread?) :D

[islandclimber]

goodbye!! :D

[Pendragon]

(-)That does it! Pipsquesks telling their elders to shove off is what's wrong with the world today! :(

[Oniw17]

(+) You should be happy it's not like the old days, when elders were very impoverished and had to live in their grandchild's basement or some such place. That is a clear sign of the world getting better.

[Pendragon]

(-)Oh, yeah, like the average nursing home is better, where elderly are sent basiclly to be forgotten by family who are waiting on granddad to tick off so that they can split the family fortune? Or they start before granddad actually dies as if he does not know they are dividing up the things he would love to see one more time? Right, much better! http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/Hummm.gifhttp://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Nun.gif

[Oniw17]

(+) At least people these days make it to be 79, which is the average age of a nursing home resident. And after the retire, they can collect social security and retirement. I don't believe that could be said of any society that was around 100 years ago.

[Pendragon]

(-)And who said I was talking about 100 years ago? I'm 47. Manners have dropped among youth to elders in my lifetime by a good 50 to 60% in the negative and that's intolerable, but the sad trend that things took. Many of those who live long lives don't enjoy the long life as those of us who visit them in the nursing homes could tell you...

[Oniw17]

(+) Everything has it's ups and downs. When the sun reaches it's zenith, it sets. Nobody believes that the sun will never again rise. It's the same for everything more or less, you just have to keep faith that in the end things turn out better. As long as history is preserved and man is a reasoning beast, this should hold true. The system for dealing with the elderly is heading toward a trough, when it gets a bit worse, somebody will fix it, as always. I believe it's the responsibility of those who see their parents suffering in nursing homes and don't want to end up the same way themselves. There is at least one nursing home where things aredone as the residents wish it. I've seen it on a PBS documentary.

[Pendragon]

(-) PBS! There's another problem! Who watches PBS? If we could get that documentry on a chanel where people actuially watch TV, maybe it would do some good! But everyone flips through the channels, you seeming to be the odd duck out, and when they hit PBS they skip it! On to another channel where something improtant is going on. Our local PBS station couldn't keep a clear channel if they tried. Durring pledge week here they were running live feed from a country music show at the theater downtown. Never heard any songs clear or got a good veiw of the stage. Came in clear when they asked for money, boring half hour speeches...

[islandclimber]

(-)That does it! Pipsquesks telling their elders to shove off is what's wrong with the world today! :(

:lol: Pen I was only saying goodbye to be pessimistic about your "hello"...:p no disrespect intended!!


but on to being optimistic about PBS... PBS shows some amazing specials sometimes.. I've seen operas and ballets on PBS, and plays... and quite good ones too... and some of there documentaries are very very good... Most people are silly and would rather watch senseless mind numbing trash... but PBS at times has very good programming...

[Oniw17]

(-)Only the documentaries are woth watching. I once watched one of the sitcoms once. It was about olf people letting a homeless woman stay in their house because their daughter moved away. Then the woman left their house and the old man thought that she took some money off of the counter. So he pu more money on the counter to keep his wife faithful in the goodness of human beings. His wife then found bothe the money the old man put back and the money the homeless woman moved. THAT WAS THE ENTIRE EPISODE! I was shocked that something so horribly uninteresting could even get on television. I actually couldn't go to sleep that night because I was so mentally scarred by the boringness of the program.

[Pendragon]

(+)But PBS is the only way for local programs to get started. And look at what it has done for someone like say, Garrison Keller! His Prairie Home Companion series with Lake Woebegon Days became his source of fame and fortune, starting on local PBS in Minnesota and going pretty much worldwide!

PS: ;) I know, Island, I was just being my sardonic self! :) :p

[Oniw17]

(-) Garrison Keller doesn't even have a wiki.

[Pendragon]

(+)That's true. I misspelled his name, as you have certainly realized by now. His name is spelled "Garrison Keillor", and there is a large Wiki article about him, as well as several web pages. Here, let me link you a webpage: http://prairiehome.publicradio.org/ He seems to be rather famous to me, for a man who still uses PBS and RAIDO at that for his comedy and poetry shows...;) ;) ;)