f a t h e r and s o n

[blp]

A father and son went out to empty pastureland
There for the father to kill the son

Insects scratched the air above the clover
No angel came to stop the father

Small mammals hurried through the hedgerows
And the blackbirds sat in a crooked row

And no ram appeared on the son’s behalf
So the son killed the father to save himself

And after that there was no help for him
Because all help must come from the father

[jon1jt]

:lol: :lol: I love the twist! :lol: :lol: You demonstrate there should be a biblical right of passage for one's disobedience in the case the justification defense applies. :lol:

Move over Story of Abraham. ;)

[blp]

Hmm. Not sure I understand your legalese, jon, but I'm glad it gave you a laugh or four.

[jon1jt]

Hmm. Not sure I understand your legalese, jon, but I'm glad it gave you a laugh or four.

Five, actually. ;) Great poem, blp.

[firefangled]

One of my favorite parodies of the classic story is Bob Dylan's in Highway 61 Revisted.

What I liked about yours, blp was the dry rendering of it, almost like a crime scene investigator telling us the story. The twist on the outcome presented quite a quandry. Wonderful!! Live on your own resources or die!

[blp]

Yes, a quandary, definitely. Glad you liked it, firefangled.

[Il Penseroso]

Interesting twist at the end. Any purposeful allusion to the Oresteia? Or am I only getting that 'cause I've been stressing about a paper on it I should be working on?

I like this part:

Insects scratched the air above the clover
No angel came to stop the father


I'm not sure what to make of the last few lines' slippage into banality ("And after that", "So", "Because"). I sense you meant to contrast this (or imply a relationship) with the "all help must come from the father" . . .

[blp]

Hey Pensoroso. Good to see you.

No, I didn't mean a contrast. It was pretty much just the language falling out as it needed to to say what I wanted to say. It was a quickie and could still change.

[PrinceMyshkin]

A father and son went out to empty pastureland
There for the father to kill the son

Insects scratched the air above the clover
No angel came to stop the father

Small mammals hurried through the hedgerows
And the blackbirds sat in a crooked row

And no ram appeared on the son’s behalf
So the son killed the father to save himself

And after that there was no help for him
Because all help must come from the father

Devastating, especially in the contrast of the matter-of-fact tone with the horror of what's being described. One is practically forced to reflect on the Abraham/Isaac story; but with or without that referent, the final couplet, after the terrifying one just before it, surely lets this down badly. It seems to me in that last couplet to become a Sunday school lesson preached by an adult confident that his captive audience will swallow whatever he serves them.

[Picture]

A father and son went out to empty pastureland
There for the father to kill the son

Insects scratched the air above the clover
No angel came to stop the father

Small mammals hurried through the hedgerows
And the blackbirds sat in a crooked row

And no ram appeared on the son’s behalf
So the son killed the father to save himself

And after that there was no help for him
Because all help must come from the father



Very Good! :thumbs_up :thumbs_up

[blp]

Devastating, especially in the contrast of the matter-of-fact tone with the horror of what's being described. One is practically forced to reflect on the Abraham/Isaac story; but with or without that referent, the final couplet, after the terrifying one just before it, surely lets this down badly. It seems to me in that last couplet to become a Sunday school lesson preached by an adult confident that his captive audience will swallow whatever he serves them.

Well, I guess I haven't made myself clear, at least to you, Prince, but I don't understand your criticism either. Do you think I really simply believe all help must come from the father?

Clue: what other mythic antecedent might be at work here?

Picture: thanks.

[SleepyWitch]

well, I don't know what other mythic antecendent there is, but I thought the last two lines sound ironic. i mean after the father tries to kill the son, it's pretty clear that "father knows best" isn't always such a good idea

[blp]

Yes, you're right, Sleepy. But go on - it's pretty easy. Actually, Pensoroso was close with Oresteia. Right country anyway. And, no, Pens, I wasn't consciously thinking of that, but I read it recently too, so it may have got in.

[SleepyWitch]

Oedipus?
Theseus and Agaeus? nope, he doesn't really kill his father

[blp]

Yes, Oedipus. In the sense of being driven inexorably towards a patricide that then leaves you lost.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Well, I guess I haven't made myself clear, at least to you, Prince, but I don't understand your criticism either. Do you think I really simply believe all help must come from the father?

I thought that might be a possibility - one that I revolted against in the context of what had come before this - but that was a bad/superficial reading on might part, and Sleepy's response (12) is helpful in leading me to a more appropriate interpretation. I still have a bit of a problem with it in this respect: I now read it as an ironic portrait of the persona who puts this forward, who is himself utterly unaware of the violent contradiction Sleepy points out between the penultimate couplet and the final one. But the sensitivity of the imagery before that had led me away from that interpretation.


Clue: what other mythic antecedent might be at work here?

But if the preferred father was Laius, then the reference to the ram too definitively misled me (or have I been so long away from O. Rex that I have forgotten there was a ram in that?).

I wonder if there is some way you could provide us one more couplet before the final one, something to give us the time to prepare for the unwitting self-condemnation in the last couplet?

[blp]

Well the ram thing's all about the Abraham story. Or...oops...should that be a lamb, prefiguring Christ? For whatever reason, I was sure I remembered a ram. Let's see. Damn, it is a lamb isn't it? Not too big a change, though I like the image of a ram. Can't have everything. I will make the change, feeling quite dumb.

I think Oedipus only comes in right at the end, as if to say, if this had been Isaac's solution, it would'nt, emotionally, have been much of a solution at all. It's the description of a state of impossibility - the one that eventually leads Oedipus to blind himself. In the bloodletting that goes on between fathers and sons, the son can't win because he doesn't really want the fight at all, but desperately desires the love and protection of the father - though he forgets it in the heat of testosterone-fuelled conflict. And then there's the guilt...

[PrinceMyshkin]

Well the ram thing's all about the Abraham story. Or...oops...should that be a lamb, prefiguring Christ? For whatever reason, I was sure I remembered a ram. Let's see. Damn, it is a lamb isn't it? Not too big a change, though I like the image of a ram. Can't have everything. I will make the change, feeling quite dumb.

I think Oedipus only comes in right at the end, as if to say, if this had been Isaac's solution, it would'nt, emotionally, have been much of a solution at all. It's the description of a state of impossibility - the one that eventually leads Oedipus to blind himself. In the bloodletting that goes on between fathers and sons, the son can't win because he doesn't really want the fight at all, but desperately desires the love and protection of the father - though he forgets it in the heat of testosterone-fuelled conflict. And then there's the guilt...

Prefiguring Christ, my Aunt Fanny! I'm pretty sure it was a ram! But if you're going to read the OT through that Christian reverse telescope, then consider the Abraham/Isaac story along with the crucifixion as evidence that 'God' is a somewhat profligate father!



Instead of killing off our fathers
which would be such a messy business
and leave us afterwards with at least
a measure of guilt
and the possibility of long imprisonment
why not place them istead
in some very comfortable retirement home
on, say, the 49th foor
and then have all the elevators fail?

[blp]

Oh you and your Aunt Fanny can have it any way you like. I don't believe any of it anyway and, of course, the whole sacrifice of God, self, to self (:eek2:) makes no sense and I'm happy to change it back to a ram. Sweet.






Instead of killing off our fathers
which would be such a messy business
and leave us afterwards with at least
a measure of guilt
and the possibility of long imprisonment
why not place them istead
in some very comfortable retirement home
on, say, the 49th foor
and then have all the elevators fail?

Same diff. imho. ;)

[AuntShecky]

21st century reading of the Abraham/Issac ep.
Interesting -- also the double meaning and ambiguity and
psychologically-loaded baggage within the two words of the
title.

Nicely done!

[jon1jt]

[QUOTE=blp;494253] I don't believe any of it anyway and, of course, the whole sacrifice of God, self, to self (:eek2:) makes no sense...QUOTE]

Here, here! :p

[PrinceMyshkin]

A father and son went out to empty pastureland
There for the father to kill the son

Insects scratched the air above the clover
No angel came to stop the father

Small mammals hurried through the hedgerows
And the blackbirds sat in a crooked row

And no ram appeared on the son’s behalf
So the son killed the father to save himself

And after that there was no help for him
Because all help must come from the father

It would be a different poem, surely, if you omitted the last verse - but mightn't it be a stronger one? Terser, more austere - more tragic?

[blp]

Hi, Auntie. Thank you.

Prince, I do take your point. Just read it without and it's certainly got something that way. To be very literal about this, though, isn't the essence of the tragic in being driven to self-destruction, seemingly inexorably, and isn't that what the final couplet shows?

If any are still paying attention, I'd be interested to get the view of some of those who said they liked the final twist.

[Scheherazade]

It would be a different poem, surely, if you omitted the last verse - but mightn't it be a stronger one? Terser, more austere - more tragic?I agree with Prince. The last two lines are sort of overdoing it for me.

[Pendragon]

A father and son went out to empty pastureland
There for the father to kill the son

Insects scratched the air above the clover
No angel came to stop the father

Small mammals hurried through the hedgerows
And the blackbirds sat in a crooked row

And no ram appeared on the son’s behalf
So the son killed the father to save himself

And after that there was no help for him
Because all help must come from the fatherI think of it as a very interesting :"What If?" aside. I do not see it as poking fun at my beloved religion, I have a good sense of humor myself. Allow yourselves to think beyond your walls. Because I'm going to tell you this: Had Issac resisted Abraham, he would have got away. He didn't resist. He obeyed as much as Abraham. Nice poem, BLP. What if it hadn't been pre-planed by God? Way to go, pal! Perfect wording, tone even reverent, everything. Just a What if? poem. Most of us who truly know you, know you don't believe in the existence of God, and it never kept me from talking to you before, nor is it likely to now. Write on!

And in case others wonder

PENDRAGON

[motherhubbard]

Oedipus/Abraham

I wonder how often this kind of thing happens. The emotion was so flat that it seemed for a moment to happen all the time. Oh look, another father killed by the son me meant to kill. Of course Jacob did not kill Abraham, but there was a clear reference to him in there. I actually had to read this several times before I really liked it- it wasn't what I expected. It was a very interesting account of the facts behind the scene given in the poem.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I think of it as a very interesting :"What If?" aside. I do not see it as poking fun at my beloved religion, I have a good sense of humor myself.

Knowing a) what a good person you are and
b) how deeply you are invested in your religion, it is hard to say this, but

where's the humour in a father who ordered his son, Abraham, to kill his son, Isaac? And let's not get back into all the rationlization about how God never intended to allow Abraham to carry it out: Abraham must have believed God intended him to carry it out or the rest of his faith was worthless...

Pretty soon we come to all those WWII Germans who were only following orders - from their "Fuhrer" and if Fuhrer (leader) is not borrowed from the same box of metaphors as God/Father/Supreme Being, then what is it?


Allow yourselves to think beyond your walls.

Bravo! Let ALL of us think beyond ALL of our walls!

When 'God' created the world he manifested his independence. When we defy 'God,' we begin to manifest our own: that is, we begin to create... ourselves.

[SleepyWitch]

Pretty soon we come to all those WWII Germans who were only following orders - from their "Fuhrer" and if Fuhrer (leader) is not borrowed from the same box of metaphors as God/Father/Supreme Being, then what is it?


:thumbs_up heheh, well, I wouldn't go as far as equating God and the Führer, but I do think God comes across as extremely cruel and unchristian in that story.

anyway, about the bland tone of your poem, blp, it kinda made me think of how lots of parents let their children starve or die of dessication (sp?). there've been a couple of cases over here lately...

[jon1jt]

Hi, Auntie. Thank you.

Prince, I do take your point. Just read it without and it's certainly got something that way. To be very literal about this, though, isn't the essence of the tragic in being driven to self-destruction, seemingly inexorably, and isn't that what the final couplet shows?

If any are still paying attention, I'd be interested to get the view of some of those who said they liked the final twist.

I'm not sure you're referring to the suggestion to clip the last two lines, I haven't been following, but I saw the reference somewhere.

The final two lines and especially the last line, are the essence of the poem, to me. I haven't read the poem from when you posted, so I haven't taken it through the analyzing, criticizing grinder, my new approach to crits. Because if I read it again I may tell you to delete the entire poem! I'm kidding, of course. I found the piece disorienting and disclosing at the same time, and in some way so abrupt it threw me into a reconsideration of the history of symbolism - the lamb, etc. - which I couldn't help but link to the other works. The twist was completely unanticipated and revealing. I loved the jettisoning of the old cliche divine-laden subject matter, wow. To maintain the focus on the father-son is brilliant. I know you've heard me say this before and how rare it is: To delete the last line or two would be to perform a castration on your fine work. This is original. Don't buy it.

[blp]

Thanks, jon. No offense, Prince or Scher, but just knowing someone else is getting the effect I wanted ('completely unanticipated and revealing') is pretty much all the validation I need.