Defining the self:

[blazeofglory]

Have you ever endeavored? Of course it is not that easy. Prior to venturing unlearn things your head is stuffed with, gibberish and bunk. You may have cans of ideals, and of course cartons of values, norms and standards you busied yourself romanticizing and putting on a pedestal. Your Gods, Goddesses, cultures, religions.

Dump your ideas, notions or rationalizations of things. De-link yourself with your social ethics and morals. Do not hypothesize truths, and do not curve from the path.

When you see a rose, see it thru you, not thru your learnings, observe the purity of it, and the perfection of it. Do not poetize it, for fantasies often obliterate the beauty of it.

Deprogram your mind. Log off. Indoctrination is what obscures realities. Wars, terrorisms, endless frictions and conflicts are not kind of clashes of ideals and ideologies? Histories consecrated wars, for they were drafted at the command of the despots of the epoch. Debunk historical facts and re-asses their worthies.

Of course while defining the self you can not de-link yourself with the cosmos. Of course you are part of it. Deconstruct your religious notions of realties, or theological evidences. You have read or heard how those who defied these theories once were branded heretics and were put at stake. But now you worship them or the very lineage of the accusers adulate those heretic or blasphemous genres.

Do not muddle the self in the eddy of debates over whether those embarking on materiality is right or those hankering after spirituality is right. But they are assumers but not finders of truth. Contemplate calmly, like a still pool of water, not allowing winds of ideas rocking your mind. That you are part of the cosmos, and of course at death you are to be back to it is something sounding more convincing. Yet do not conclude.

You matter and the rest matters after you. And of course this universe begins with you if it has a beginning and ends up with you if it has its end. Imagine what remains after death at least for you?

This is a quest and nothing else, for I am not a preacher and do not pretend to be one. But I love to meditate not out of my belief in spirituality or religiosity, over everything I know and I know not. In this course I deconstruct most of notions or ideas and unlearn things rubbishing my capacities for understanding truth.

Of course you have acquired a little knowledge about this universe but in truth the summation of all your knowledge is likened to a mote before Mt. Everest . And of course as far as this vast and limitless universe is considered you are of course as ignorant an ant which never can understand the secret of the moon. Both you simply are amazed at what you see, the beauty and perfection of natural phenomena. Any rationalization of you is rubbish.

[crazefest456]

but it's all so difficult; I've tried it so many times and I've failed. My mind loves to rationalize when I don't want to fall into this trap I create in this very robotic world. I'm in the verge of a compromise with my self and mind, because they keep fighting, leaving me helpless.
De-constructing is very easy, but the path to adopting some renewal makes me VERY scared that I don't take the right path...

[blazeofglory]

but it's all so difficult; I've tried it so many times and I've failed. My mind loves to rationalize when I don't want to fall into this trap I create in this very robotic world. I'm in the verge of a compromise with my self and mind, because they keep fighting, leaving me helpless.
De-constructing is very easy, but the path to adopting some renewal makes me VERY scared that I don't take the right path...

Indeed it is a trap we all are falling in, and of course we are indoctrinated into ideas, multiple of ideas. And it is of course very hard for us to go into the unlearning of what have been stuffed with by the society that we lived in.

But it is really worth endeavoring, isn't it? Of course deprogramming is necessary to reach a state wherein we will be in what we are in.


Of course we are in point of fact very much deeply plugged in, and our efforts must be to come out of the frame or set-up.

I am elated to read that you read this post and internalized the facts we live with.

[B-Mental]

I live this way Blaze, and continually try to experience the world in its purist form...for me this means solitude most of the time as others cloud my mind with their impurities. Allow me to share my last boat ride was in the early morning, and the dampness of the air, the rising of the sun, the waves splashing against the bow tossed sprays of kisses upon me. The dolphins swam by and twinkled their eyes as the pelicans soared above. I was contentedly blissful for days after this.

[jon1jt]

I live this way Blaze, and continually try to experience the world in its purist form...for me this means solitude most of the time as others cloud my mind with their impurities. Allow me to share my last boat ride was in the early morning, and the dampness of the air, the rising of the sun, the waves splashing against the bow tossed sprays of kisses upon me. The dolphins swam by and twinkled their eyes as the pelicans soared above. I was contentedly blissful for days after this.

B, hold it a sec...let's think about this solitude matter more critically: (!)

I appreciate that scene, the whole boat ride experience you had today. Sounds serene. But what about the girls who love to write poetry? Couldn't we all gather in that boat of yours, set sail, write poems under the stars, the dolphins gleeful as we pass? :p

[B-Mental]

lol there is a beacon for that express purpose jon...when I started the do you own a TV thread, this deprogramming that blaze is talking about is part of that too me. I wonder what blaze has to say about the third eye? I like to call this the twinkle of purity in ones eye...to me it is similar to the glow in a cats eyes....when you can make a cat recognise you and stare because you can twinkle your eyes back at the cat, you may have deprogrammed yourself...at least to a point.

[amanda_isabel]

that's pretty difficult, since this world pretty much defines you by what you have achieved and who you "are": a lwayer maybe or what.. but hey, that's no easy task and i have to admit that i have never endeavored to do such... i guess i'm like on of those "normal" people to whom it never occurs... but i do intend to do it someday.. i just don't know when that someday will be. maybe when i feel that i'm ready for the possibility of existential angst or what not...

[thechampion]

i found the ideas once when i was rolling balls off like four pills. your entire mind is nothing at that point. it wasn't ideas born from the question, my mind simply was and i simply was and the idea and the feeling was lost again as i came down. i haven't really had the same experience since then though

[crazefest456]

i found the ideas once when i was rolling balls off like four pills. your entire mind is nothing at that point. it wasn't ideas born from the question, my mind simply was and i simply was and the idea and the feeling was lost again as i came down. i haven't really had the same experience since then though

don't worry; this episode will return in a different form, on it's own.

[thechampion]

no apostrophe in its. sorry im impulsive. i also meant were instead of was when i said the idea and the feeling was. im a grammar jerk. yea i hope so i got green bosses now so tomorrow should have some kind of revelation.

[crazefest456]

AHA! I hate it when I do that! (I'm actually typing this while sitting on my left foot, causing it to fall asleep..now it's tingling)
green bosses-- hmm... sorry, I'm horrible with idiomatic usage: uh, green as in envious or evil?

[thechampion]

green bosses, man. illies. hello? pills. i said it in my first post. x, dude; xtc. try it. great ****. thats what i was talking about before. it deconstructs for you- delete conceptions, reboot pleasure. after four pills, you only exist. it is perfect life. i think its like a shortcut to zen for a couple hours. a western practitioner of zen described as best he could in words the idea without ideas as having the ability to "wake up every morning and the world is so beautiful you can barely stand it" and that is how x is. you just are and the world just is and everybody just is but its more beautiful than anything has ever been or ever will be again. everything is more beuatiful than anything else has ever been. every person is your best and most cherished friend that you want to be with and talk to forever; every sight is your favorite painting that you just want to gaze at for all of eternity. on and on like that. with everything. it's good.

[B-Mental]

I can do what you cannot, and all without a pill...but you have the choice champion...what you choose is your path, one that I have left behind many many years. it is a difficult painful path that you take...

[Scheherazade]

Please do not personalise your comments.

If you do not find any posts/threads interesting, please feel free to ignore them.

Any off-topic posts will be deleted without any further notice.

[thechampion]

very godded i have. its pain sometimes but no more than normal life inspires it. the god of centuries brays humanity in a mortar. choking on smoke and dust. there are holes in the top of his mouth from too much cocaine, and she says who cares a telling amount of times. let go. this could be all we have. what then?

XTC will end you destroy you and de-ego you. completely and thoroughly, skraped out clean of perceptions you are the eye you are your sights; your sounds and your thoughts are you. you are your surroundings; you are one with all. you are most cherished painting, you are the most beloved friend; yet at the same time you are seperate. in this way you love yourself, you love them for their slight defferences, love is your existence, and you are that love. completely. entirely.

[B-Mental]

I like this last entry champ...the feelings you explain in the second paragraph I try to acheive through the natural destruction of my desires when they are unhealthy or don't meet my promise for the spiritual perfection which I think the Blaze is writing of. It is a painful proccess to do this though.

[thechampion]

dear god. try x man. its instant, it will at the very least teach you what it is that you are striving for. it has made me loving because it destroys you and when you come back through it by the natural tendency to express personality you are not the same. its brutal man you have to.

[NikolaiI]

Don't over do it, telling people to do drugs, the champion! You'll get banned. :(

I think all drugs are liberating to an extent; even smoking cigarettes. Marijuana, certainly; as the Rastafarians do, all the hallucinagenics have countless religious uses---
LSD cured alcoholism 90% in tests done in the sixties, yet it is not understood at all.

One thing people don't realize is that in relationship to our minds, all things are psychotropic; lights, sounds, smells. The chemicals in the brain are in constant flux, and are connected instantly; before you actually realize what's going on-- the delay of consciousness, and all of these things bind us. Drugs can be liberating or binding.

[blazeofglory]

I subscribe to the idea of Nikolai wholeheartedly. Drugging oneself to liberate is a short cut in some cases but that is fleeting, that means the effect of it is not prolonged. And of course it is not a natural course and the peace or relaxation you get through it is unnatural. You have something within and do not try to externalize it, for everything is within.

Meditation is without a doubt a very curative process and I bet one can get liberated through it at all times.

Man is of course a programmable being, and the software that is installed determines your behavior. There are no nuances of doubts in that. Why should not we use better softwares when there is a choice rather than taking a recourse to drug.

[thechampion]

but with drugs, you see, it is possible to glimpse what you want. shooting for that goal, whatever it may be enlightenment or whatever, becomes muc easier and you know at least what you want some part of the final result to be.

[B-Mental]

drugs provide the delusion of control...while others just won't know unless they follow your path to wisdom through polluting their system...the inspiration and creativity are already within you champ...you have viewed a manner to feel them... the true journey of enlightenment is to be able to express yourself without some substance...to touch the purely creative pure thought you must remove the external substances.

[blazeofglory]

Of course we have everything within us inherently and of course built-in, and externals are simply to blaze the way within us as a matter of fact.

Why to drug our mind or sense since everything is integrally or innately within us and of course we need not externalize.

We are the world and everything therein the world is intrinsically indeed within us, and nuances of doubts are what indeed keep us from realizing it.

We are in substance manifestations of God and or the expression of Godliness and taking recourse to drugs indicates that we are blind to a fountain of happiness and blissfulness and externalizing it is indeed a kind of mistake.

[B-Mental]

Ohh BOG///you are my brother from another mother...you humble me...I would like to sit sometime with you and not say a word, but watch the sunset....that would be fun...Cheers, B

[blazeofglory]

This is what we call connection, a kind of connection or thread that bind us together of course secretly. In fact we are brothers, scattered seeds of the same tree. There is no reason that we are separate.

An idea of universality is something we must understand, and indeed this feeling is what we call Buddha nature.

[thechampion]

buddha nature would force you to accept me as a brother from another mother also. bmental you are a hipocrite. the world is an illusion; the body is a vessel. by that then pollution of the body is doubly, nay infinitely an illusion. life entails death, you have absolutely zero control of anything but your own endless self-regenesis, and nothing is of any importance or significance that can ever be accomplished.

[blazeofglory]

In fact I do not agree. As everything is seemingly an illusion and yet deep down therein is a meaning. The problem is with you and you have to find it for yourself indeed.

If you believe in God, the world and we all beings are manifestations of that entity and there is nothing we call illusive.

It is natural for us to think things are illusory as they seem impermanent, and everything is in constant flux. Yet the creation has a meaning.

Are we meaninglessly conversing? If that is so why we do so? Of course you have a meaning to present and I too have something to say. These are small meanings or small truths. There are higher truths or higher meanings and indeed we have to find out them for ourselves.

Maybe you are right from one perspective and but I cannot subscribe to your view.

Anyway I feel there is a grand meaning behind this creation. Having said so I am not kind of asserting theism and theological perspectives.

[B-Mental]

buddha nature would force you to accept me as a brother from another mother also. bmental you are a hipocrite. the world is an illusion; the body is a vessel. by that then pollution of the body is doubly, nay infinitely an illusion. life entails death, you have absolutely zero control of anything but your own endless self-regenesis, and nothing is of any importance or significance that can ever be accomplished.

Oh my poor friend, you are so misled...I withstand you, and respect your thoughts, but....and this is a big but...you and many others rely on money to get what nature gives you...if you learned to control your desires, you would learn to control your world...I am not a hypocrit...check your spelling, if you have it spelled correctly, than I apologise. I have removed all negativity from life...this includes drugs! I feel no pain, no cold, no hunger...I eat berries, nuts and olives...(Gee, if you were so good on popping pills and being negative, I am just the opposite). I control my life, and the life of those around me through sharing, smiling, helping, I walk with animals, and kiss the ground I walk on...I embrace only the positive, but am always willing to learn from those who have taken a similar opinion of the world....Blaze, I am so happy to read what you write.....metanoia, I think you have it right too.

Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy.....Peace, B

PS~ Please do not be offended by my entry...I feel that someone has an inferiority complex, maybe me...maybe someone else?

[thechampion]

Hypocrite sorry. By the way how can you steal celine's signature three periods and present a point of view almost diametrically opposed to the man? And I do not rely on money to give me happiness as you hypothesized; I work at mcdonalds. Drugs help me I promise you. They can and are being used as a tool of self discovery. Don't give me this crap about meaning either I do what I do for the same reason every person in history has ever done anything: to give my soul content. Everyone is a machine; read mark twains what is man.

[B-Mental]

You think I haven't read Mark Twain? Well, let me tell you where I work...(I stole nothing from someone I've never heard of.) You work at McD's. I take helicopters to work, sometimes boats, that take me to my ship! You take the bus or ride a bike. I am a geologist that has worked in more states than you have years under your belt. I have more friends, than you have dollars in the bank. You insult, I inspire.........you continue to insult me, and I will ask the moderators to ban you for promoting drugs! You are the poor, narcisisstic, man I used to be...you really need to stop your personal attacks.

[thechampion]

so this last post was... what? An attempt to convince me how much better you are than me? I am really simply defending myself at this point... You called me a hedonistic materialist and I tried to say that I wasn't. Then you went on a... rant about how much better your life and job are than mine. I haven't said anything like "use drugs" in my past twenty posts, I've just been attempting to justify my own use, which I shouldn't have to do. You say you tolerate ideas yet you attack me wherever I post. You know, also, I could get another username if you try to ban me. I am done arguing with you. I should not have to defend myself on a ****ing forum. This is my last post that will even address one of yours.

[B-Mental]

I never said that... I replied to you. Yes you have. Don't share it with us...we don't care about it. Yes, don't reference me again, PLEASE.

[blazeofglory]

We all are friends and of course we have a little difference. Such differences should not distance us from one another. Let us maintain amity we already have. Of course we are learning from one another immensely. There is no preoccupations or preconceived notions of who we are. Everyone belongs to every other. We are indeed one whole. Any discordance among us is a flaw in the mechanism, or in this integral corpus and will be healed or repaired with time.

Let us be more open to one another and be sharing.

[crazefest456]

Back to the deconstruction:
I did think that I finally deconstructed it all but now I'm actually going to get help in that from a friend's teacher/mentor sort of guy... He really helped her let go the past year and I feel that I'm in to deep in this world to do it all without help; I've realized that he knows more about me than I do, and that he sees in me things. And I never even said a word to him. And I trust this person because he's a straightforward, simple guy. He doesn't bother with elaborate superiority over others...so I'm planning to tell him every bit about myself, about my desires, my fears, my very strong emotions, the evils that I continue to delve in, etc.
I'm really excited...I hope this "confession" sort of thing really leads me to progress in this reawakening. I'll tell you guys what happens.
Please pray/hope that everything goes well!

[B-Mental]

Good luck with that craze. Sometimes, it is easier to be patient, and understand yourself...your confessions are unto yourself. You will come to a place where you can confront your fear, at that time you must chose correctly, but all choices are correct. Part of self identity is to release your inhibitions.

[crazefest456]

Good luck with that craze. Sometimes, it is easier to be patient, and understand yourself...your confessions are unto yourself. You will come to a place where you can confront your fear, at that time you must chose correctly, but all choices are correct. Part of self identity is to release your inhibitions.

Thank you B-M! But I confess and confess to myself, and end up crying in the end for all that was wasted...I suddenly get defensive on the topic of myself, so I get sort of nowhere with this boxing match I play in against me. That's why (you're right) I'm going to test him out first-- to make sure that he's ready for me or if I'm ready for him. Sometimes, some of these spiritual (cleansing?) between conflicting personalities end up horribly, so I'll be careful...It is a very big step to getting somewhere though.

You will come to a place where you can confront your fear, at that time you must chose correctly, but all choices are correct.
That sounds so difficult for me (because of my endless inhibitions). I'm always indecisive, always evaluate my decision before I even make it. I hope I reach that point; I'm glad that I realized what I needed to do early on, and I'm really happy that I'm getting support from somewhere.
Exactly, defining me...what a great journey I'm going to make! You're right, I rushed before, and that's why it didn't work out for me. I've never been this happy in my life...Thank you B-M! I'm so glad I stumbled upon lit-net... I'm giving an imaginary bear hug to the whole forum :D

[B-Mental]

I will tell you a little secret about decision making craze. I am a snowboarder. When you are snowboarding, and decide to try a jump or new trick or what not, you must commit to your decision, and then give it all of your concentration. To fail to do so means a hard landing and the possible injuries that are involved. Most decisions are really so simple, but you have to know when you are in over your head. Good luck. B

[NikolaiI]

Craze, I take it you are younger than me, I'd just say if you didn't mind, I would just say I think you are intelligent, and of course very mentally stable, and that always comes before everything else...I hope you always become more at peace and happier as time goes by :) --I think also growth is a two-fold process; gradual development and insight or realization. --Of course this is very vague...For the ultimate goal of self-realization, always during the progress towards it we have to have trust in ourselves. It's all a state of mind, which gives us a lot of control over our destinies. Ask, and thou shalt receive-- so if we ask for love, beauty, peace, knowledge, skillful means, whatever we ask for we are given. The more so since we choose what we think, and what we think is nothing less than entire reality for us. This is why sometimes it seems wrong to actually think things, as in thinking someone is right or wrong. We know what's right and wrong, and when we think about things, they become more complicated and we forget or lose our focus. Thinking is just an exercise of our mind, and if we are not thinking, our mind is still involved with everything of creating our reality for us. But we are not the only ones in our lives; in fact everything is interdependent.

Anyway, just some thoughts...not all of this was directed at you, Craze, a lot of it I thought of, and then I saw your posts.


Something I felt recently was sort of embracing the whole world, and being at peace with everyone.

[crazefest456]

No, I really needed this...I really don't mind! I've become a tad bit flighty over the years, and I forgot the real reason why finding my self became harder. I really, REALLY appreciate this, both of you.

[NikolaiI]

Ha, happy to help then!

I think we go around and around, learning about different things and coming back to the same points again and again; when I think about things like it seems you are now, I don't think I very often forget what I've thought about. It's like putting a puzzle together, I guess. You're obviously into philosophy. I am a big fan of Nietzsche; who in the beginning of his first book "The Birth of Attic Tragedy", he mentions the commonness among philosophers to view the world as a dream, and Plato's "The Cave" comes to mind. I keep coming back to this point because it seems understanding this truth is different from everything else. What we see is a shadow, as Plato describes. My own allegory is sitting in a room with a pen, writing a single sentences, which signifies existence; and knowing only the knower, only the writer of the sentence, not knowing so much about the sentence itself, just coming back always to the fundamental knowledge of authorship, and examining the sentnece, but completely at peace with everything in it, like a Stoic; and even transcendening from this reality eventually...

[crazefest456]

"The Birth of Attic Tragedy", he mentions the commonness among philosophers to view the world as a dream, and Plato's "The Cave" comes to mind. I keep coming back to this point because it seems understanding this truth is different from everything else. What we see is a shadow, as Plato describes. My own allegory is sitting in a room with a pen, writing a single sentences, which signifies existence; and knowing only the knower, only the writer of the sentence, not knowing so much about the sentence itself, just coming back always to the fundamental knowledge of authorship, and examining the sentnece, but completely at peace with everything in it, like a Stoic; and even transcendening from this reality eventually...

That's exactly it; I focused too much on the sentence or the shadows of things outside the cave. There must be a balance between knowing my self and my actions...but wouldn't that make me even a tad bit disillusioned; if I make a clear rift between my two identities?

[NikolaiI]

Well, my window froze when I tried to add this in an edit to the post above:


As for it all, it is all a state of mind. Thus we can only be at peace,, if we are at peace. The slate can be wiped clean-- I often wonder, can the nature of the slate be altered? What is the nature of the slate? Presumably, such goodness as to be buddha-nature. Does this mean it's possible to realize this? Quite so it does. That is our destiny, and in fact it is our past also. Whether reincarnation from family to family, exists, so to speak, it is quite factual that genetic and heredity link us with our past and future in that way. Our health and genes are determined by our ancestors-- Not solely, the first, second, third or fourth previous generations, but countless generations before that, is what makes up our genetics and DNA. Now, these ancestors must have lived everything we can experience in our lives! They must have medtiated, fasted, been healthy, been spiritual, been enligthened, as well as lived every kind of depravity-- at least in some measure, on some scale. The truth is we have good genes-- all of us. To realize our fullest potential is to improve our entire line of succession-- all of the skills that are hereditary...not to mention worldy status and position. To realize this, all we need to do is ask for it. We must needs but trust our selves and ask for it; since we make it for ourselves by ourselves, by our asking. Let us, for instance, ask for God, in the Christian sense. Already we have come to a breakthrough. We want peace, and what is the source of that peace? Following His Law. If we are always asking Him, then we are never breaking His Law. If we have not broken, nor will break, His Law, then nothing material can possibly affect this spiritual realization. We have transcended, we see our reality and we see our destiny and nature. Etc., etc.,
And yet our asking must become acting. Where is the drive to act, though? But our asking becomes creating-- which we cannot cease to do, ever, we cannot cease creating reality, as long as we are alive. So we come back to creating reality...that would be faith, perhaps. Faith that everything is different; that we will not fail, and that our ultimate destiny is, in fact, something better than our imagining, that if we even fully realized what we believe we are capable of, then it would be better than we could imagine. And perhaps we are capable of even more than we think we are? In fact, this actually must be the case.

Now about the Cave-- I have limited knowledge of it; I may have read about it or had it explained to me. I should read it again, I just read the Wikipedia stub on it under Plato. I think it's not shadows outside but shadows on the inside of the wall, made by the setting sun, as the person is chained and unable to move. Plato says that the forms we see are but shadows of their ideal ideas. They are also passing shadows, which seems to be the justification or proof of calling it a dream. There's more in that Plato says the senses are not to be trusted, basically, or their input taken as real, etc.... I think a Buddhist monk would enjoy discussing it. :) Anyway, what do you think?

[crazefest456]

Well, my window froze when I tried to add this in an edit to the post above:


As for it all, it is all a state of mind. Thus we can only be at peace,, if we are at peace. The slate can be wiped clean-- I often wonder, can the nature of the slate be altered? What is the nature of the slate? Presumably, such goodness as to be buddha-nature. Does this mean it's possible to realize this? Quite so it does. That is our destiny, and in fact it is our past also. Whether reincarnation from family to family, exists, so to speak, it is quite factual that genetic and heredity link us with our past and future in that way. Our health and genes are determined by our ancestors-- Not solely, the first, second, third or fourth previous generations, but countless generations before that, is what makes up our genetics and DNA. Now, these ancestors must have lived everything we can experience in our lives! They must have medtiated, fasted, been healthy, been spiritual, been enligthened, as well as lived every kind of depravity-- at least in some measure, on some scale. The truth is we have good genes-- all of us. To realize our fullest potential is to improve our entire line of succession-- all of the skills that are hereditary...not to mention worldy status and position. To realize this, all we need to do is ask for it. We must needs but trust our selves and ask for it; since we make it for ourselves by ourselves, by our asking. Let us, for instance, ask for God, in the Christian sense. Already we have come to a breakthrough. We want peace, and what is the source of that peace? Following His Law. If we are always asking Him, then we are never breaking His Law. If we have not broken, nor will break, His Law, then nothing material can possibly affect this spiritual realization. We have transcended, we see our reality and we see our destiny and nature. Etc., etc.,

That's one of the things that I do less and less. Asking Him seemed like humiliation for me, because I felt like I didn't really deserve his attention. I feared insincerity in my worshipping him that I pretty much stopped asking...I'm shocked, I guess I repressed this inside that I never really knew I wasn't asking. I feel like I've done a horrid thing...see, I again over thought this whole supplicating thing that I completely stopped! That's insane, I really didn't think I would do something in this magnitude.


And yet our asking must become acting. Where is the drive to act, though? But our asking becomes creating-- which we cannot cease to do, ever, we cannot cease creating reality, as long as we are alive. So we come back to creating reality...that would be faith, perhaps. Faith that everything is different; that we will not fail, and that our ultimate destiny is, in fact, something better than our imagining, that if we even fully realized what we believe we are capable of, then it would be better than we could imagine. And perhaps we are capable of even more than we think we are? In fact, this actually must be the case.

Yes, we never do stop creating reality...Would trying to stop others to create a wrong reality( to the extent of deteriorating our peace) impossible? Wars, oppression, abuse, all contribute to this...Can this be stopped by finding the nature of the slate?


Now about the Cave-- I have limited knowledge of it; I may have read about it or had it explained to me. I should read it again, I just read the Wikipedia stub on it under Plato. I think it's not shadows outside but shadows on the inside of the wall, made by the setting sun, as the person is chained and unable to move. Plato says that the forms we see are but shadows of their ideal ideas. They are also passing shadows, which seems to be the justification or proof of calling it a dream. There's more in that Plato says the senses are not to be trusted, basically, or their input taken as real, etc.... I think a Buddhist monk would enjoy discussing it. :) Anyway, what do you think?

oh, it's been a few years (I was introduced to the allegory in my poli sci class) for me...I mixed it up:)
Senses, though deceiving, can be a component of the little mind you were talking about in the "God or Chaos?" thread...I just they're just cobwebs on the kernel of the Real; but useful cobwebs, to me:D

I love the idea of ancestry lines contributing all the necessary skills. But I feel too torn from such lines-- I wish their presence would inculcate inside me so that I'd have an easier time finding these skills. I guess I need to learn about my roots and filling in that rift between that past and now.
I really love these ideas...they all make up a wonderful path to lead and to fear nothing, all the while.

[NikolaiI]

That's one of the things that I do less and less. Asking Him seemed like humiliation for me, because I felt like I didn't really deserve his attention. I feared insincerity in my worshipping him that I pretty much stopped asking...I'm shocked, I guess I repressed this inside that I never really knew I wasn't asking. I feel like I've done a horrid thing...see, I again over thought this whole supplicating thing that I completely stopped! That's insane, I really didn't think I would do something in this magnitude.

Well I could not tell you it is better to ask or not ask. I believe I'm getting closer to what is true; and I already understand some things. Since I have various opinions about various truths, I recognize when I agree with something and if I believe it is more truthful, or less truthful. What I think is truth is that all of my ideas and definitions for pretty much everything, are limited, and so often flat out wrong. I think I have a body; well, is it mine? I think a body is a certain structure and healthy organism, yet is it truly so? Is it matter? So say everything; but it is passing, and it is not me, and so I know it is not what I think it is. So after all this; questions to my belief or knowledge of metaphysics are even more dismantling. How can I call anything good or bad? If I am to put structure to what I see as the platform of my self, my honor, or my karma, or anything like that; I have to take it in its immensity, and everything becomes scary and unstable. I have to realize that though not putting too much emphasis on my own authority; yet I have to focus on becoming Stoic about the dream, both climbing out of my cave of ignorance, and practicing methods which fascilitate realization. Meditation and contemplation, philosophy and breathing excercises, moving martial arts are a part of meditation; all of these things are good for me, and sometimes amazing, so I should continue to pursue this, and other skillful means, and also cultivate goodness in virtuous acts; for though I am not proud of all my actions, I can at least be proud of some of them, and I can take responsibility for myself. Even if you throw a light upon my shackled form in the cave darkness, still would you see a self-aware and intelligent being, aware of its darkness, or perhaps a peaceful soul, aware that the perceived and agreed upon reality of darkness is merely another illusion. So I cannot recommend asking or not asking, as I do not wish to call myself right or wrong, or any other person right or wrong; yet I do realize that asking is closely related to taking responsibility. Perhaps neither is required, or at least no duty to material directives, and perhaps the highest responsibility is altogether spiritual in nature.


[Socrates] Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural, if our allegory may be trusted.

http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/allegory.html


Yes, we never do stop creating reality...Would trying to stop others to create a wrong reality( to the extent of deteriorating our peace) impossible? Wars, oppression, abuse, all contribute to this...Can this be stopped by finding the nature of the slate?

Who knows? It is necessary that the people be liberated.


oh, it's been a few years (I was introduced to the allegory in my poli sci class) for me...I mixed it up:)
Senses, though deceiving, can be a component of the little mind you were talking about in the "God or Chaos?" thread...I just they're just cobwebs on the kernel of the Real; but useful cobwebs, to me:D

Yes, it's quite wonderful you said this! I first became aware of the idea in Buddhism, and now it has evolved, but exists practically, a little different. In Buddhism there is written about a thing called "Mind-weeds." To put it very simply, they're something we can 'pull out' and plant, and they can help nourish better concentration, meditation or what have you. Now I just sort of think that with integration or focus, different thoughts or "mind-weeds" can be a good thing, meaning good for the health of the body and the brain; etc., if this makes any sense.


I love the idea of ancestry lines contributing all the necessary skills. But I feel too torn from such lines-- I wish their presence would inculcate inside me so that I'd have an easier time finding these skills. I guess I need to learn about my roots and filling in that rift between that past and now.
I really love these ideas...they all make up a wonderful path to lead and to fear nothing, all the while.

I was thinking about this; in a way we are connected to our ancestors, past to present; the practice in various skillful means they did, long before we were born, these are seen come alive if we practice the same skillful means. Now this holds true for something like playing piano, if someone has a great deal of music in their veins, this can be relearned and expanded upon; but think how great our history is-- how far back it goes, and all of this time what our ancesters were doing are the same things we are; walking, running, thinking, meditating, eating, drinking, breathing, talking, laughing, and everything involved in their lives, which would not be truthfully too much different from our lives-- finding fulfillment, finding peace, happiness, and extension, and finding realization. Simply to observe ourselves; our hands, our minds, our bodies, our souls; is to take the first step, and if we see ourselves as we truly are, we'll see that we're totally directed towards this realization, towards spirituality, and all of that. Did we not have ancestors who had broken through the illusion? Who found realization in religion, and yet were also true to standards of equality and integrity we have developed now; found realization, and sometimes emergence from the restrictions of their age?

This last has been just a touch lengthy probably, I apologize. :alien:

I suppose you could look up your roots, if that's what you felt inclined to do, but what I've been thinking is that it isn't terribly important. What's important is that we had ancestors in the last century, which excercise a very strong role on our position-- our grandparents and parents, these are large figures in our lives-- yet we have ancestors in every century; back two centuries, and much beyond that! Each generation we have a couple, a man and a woman, who conceive a child, who meets another child, who conceive another; we actually have very, very many ancestors. They're with us.

[crazefest456]

God, I wanna reply so badly, but my arm hurts today (and I read it,) but ugh, it's frustrating:crash: ...you'll see what I wanna talk about in a day...:(

[blazeofglory]

Ha, happy to help then!

I think we go around and around, learning about different things and coming back to the same points again and again; when I think about things like it seems you are now, I don't think I very often forget what I've thought about. It's like putting a puzzle together, I guess. You're obviously into philosophy. I am a big fan of Nietzsche; who in the beginning of his first book "The Birth of Attic Tragedy", he mentions the commonness among philosophers to view the world as a dream, and Plato's "The Cave" comes to mind. I keep coming back to this point because it seems understanding this truth is different from everything else. What we see is a shadow, as Plato describes. My own allegory is sitting in a room with a pen, writing a single sentences, which signifies existence; and knowing only the knower, only the writer of the sentence, not knowing so much about the sentence itself, just coming back always to the fundamental knowledge of authorship, and examining the sentnece, but completely at peace with everything in it, like a Stoic; and even transcendening from this reality eventually...

Truth is indeed a pathless land as famously said by J.K Krishnamurti. It is not subjective. You often seem to glimpse truth through your writing s . O f course inquiry takes us close to truth and there are inquisitions in your writings and this is what absorbs me in point of fact.

There are indeed countless paths and Gurus and we simply flow with eddies of ideas and opinions and they simply mislead us.

Personally I do not fully hinge upon particular sets of ideas. All of us are indeed inquirers and not arrivers and making conclusion is indeed dogmatic.

This world is really mysterious and I do not why I can not fully subscribe to both ideas of materiality and spiritualities and both indeed suffer limitations of their own and indeed beyond a point both ideologists can not venture.

Nikolai, I know you are a tireless seeker and indeed your ways of inquiries appeal to me for there is pervasiveness in your inquiry

[NikolaiI]

Truth is indeed a pathless land as famously said by J.K Krishnamurti. It is not subjective. You often seem to glimpse truth through your writing s . O f course inquiry takes us close to truth and there are inquisitions in your writings and this is what absorbs me in point of fact.

There are indeed countless paths and Gurus and we simply flow with eddies of ideas and opinions and they simply mislead us.

Personally I do not fully hinge upon particular sets of ideas. All of us are indeed inquirers and not arrivers and making conclusion is indeed dogmatic.

This world is really mysterious and I do not why I can not fully subscribe to both ideas of materiality and spiritualities and both indeed suffer limitations of their own and indeed beyond a point both ideologists can not venture.

Nikolai, I know you are a tireless seeker and indeed your ways of inquiries appeal to me for there is pervasiveness in your inquiry

Well, there is a certain "One" that all philosophies are centered around. As long as we agree that there are different levels of existence and being, then there will always be one underlying source, and at the other end a nothingness. We can agree or disagree about anything we want to. Truly we can learn from anyone, yet there are many who operate on such opposite pretexts, as to make communication impossible. How do you communicate with someone, for instance, who harasses you and has a low or worse opinion of you? These people are completely lost in ignorance and ambition, they do nothing but insult others to destroy their security and self-respect. This is obviously done out of a twisted drive to show their opposition's "mistakes" and "flaws", etc. In any case to be in contact with such a harasser, it, as Plato describes, cuts the wings of the soul from their nourishment, and the soul falls dead to the ground. This is why those who have climbed out of the ignorance do not want to continue in the struggle for existence, rather they are sufficient in the truth they possess, and if they can truly find no other living people who will nourish them, then they prefer at least to protect their soul by not engaging in those who have no vision for the spiritual. Now it is absolutely the truth, as you say, that we cannot battle such people for the truth, about ourselves, or any of our objects of contemplation. No words may be said in such a case that will further any kind of mutual understanding and nourishment.

[blazeofglory]

Nikolai, I know you are on a spiritual path. Yet I have to say something about what you said notwithstanding the fact that there is nothing to do with agreement and disagreement.

Somewhere you seem to be judgmental of what others said and done in point of fact, yet, Nikolai, there is some reality we must understand. All we do here is for struggle for existence. All of us indeed have to do struggle for existence and indeed sins from one perspective. You can not continue living without killing living beings. When you eat meat indeed there is sin for you can not eat it without killing, and even if you are a vegetarian the killing is involved.

Therefore, we can not live without committing sins. Only there is a question of degree and nature. All are committing sins of some kind.

You know the story in the bible of a widow who was stoned by a throng of people for her adultery. She was accused of being involved in profanities. Jesus saved her.

This vindicates that all of us are sinful in point of fact. :)

[NikolaiI]

What I mean is that we cannot have any kind of honest exchange with someone who operates under such guidelines as to make opinions about others' being, state of mind, character, when these are wrong. How would you feel if someone said you were depressed, for every day of your life? How would you do if someone said you were weak, inferior, stupid, helpless, ugly; all of these things are horrible, horrible things to say, yet people do believe them and say them. When placed in such a position, it would be very difficult to have peace of mind, growth, and happiness in ones' self...I am beginning with Plato or Socrates' definition and description of the soul, and I am talking about the kind of people who nourish others' souls, and those who do not. And in making decisions in this life, one has to realize that there are those who will abuse them, and cut their soul away from the light, and these people are to be seen as such; defined by their actions towards' others. I think it is remarkablly good that we have such a community here, and I am very grateful for it. I find my soul nourished with knowledge and friendship; yet even here I have seen such persons that do not care for such communal friendship; for whatever reason. And they do not have a leg to stand on. I am not talking about vegetarian or omnivourous, and I am not talking about killing in battle. I am talking about those who cannot speak without hatred. If you need proof of the existence of such persons I can give it to you, although it is very plain. Personalities are surely spread out and on a bell curve. Thus there are people along every place of the spectrum, from the worst through the mean to the best of people. Now I do not wish to judge others. But I do wish to grow in my spirituality, and help others, not as a condescending wish to teach but with an idea that such communication is of the highest and deepest sort. Especially is it pure on this particular form of communication; and on my part at least I tell you there is no attachment, and no desire. Nothing disharmonious. And in my quest for persons of a like nature-- and for those whose differences interact harmoniously with mine; I know that on the spectrum, there will be those who are firmly rooted in negativity, and vice, who must be completely opposite from me, and value everything oppositely; and as it is said what is good for one is not necessarily enjoyable, it's also true that what's normal for one is traumatic, and hateful to another. The people who I am talking of will not only desire what is different from me; they have no boundaries and so their desires are in excess; their desire for material power overflows into a desire to control me, to control my mind; and this is shown in the fact that they have opinions of me-- that on whatever spectrum they see things through; I am of the lowest sort on it-- and they repeat these over and over to convince me of it; this is the harassing I was speaking of. So while it's wonderful to have this communication; it can be frustrating to meet someone who, if you listen to them, will cut your soul off from the nourishment of purity, knowledge, and virtue. You might say, well, if your soul is so nourished then why do you not fly away on its wing? It is a good point for the analogy, yet we know that we do not always have complete control over our spirituality. It might be easier if we did, yet you must realize that we cannot 'defeat' the whole world. If we are met with one person, with two, then they are perhaps a force more powerful than us; and when we are in such a situation it is like we are in an entire ocean, struggling for our existence. I'm sure you've read passages describing this in the Gita. Now, we can't destroy the world on our own. In the Gita and in Pure Land Buddhism as well as Christianity, it's emphasized that one relinquish trying to control the world, (in Pure Land Buddhism it says to do this after strecthing one's powers to their full), and accept the world, and focus on God. What I am saying is simply that we also need to acknowledge the difference between good and bad, that is, as it applies to the persons in our life, who affect us either by nourishing our soul, strengthening its wings to fly in knowledge and peace, or otherwise doing their best to bring us to the ground, and cut off our soul from all light, so that it will die on the ground.

[B-Mental]

Somewhere you seem to be judgmental of what others said and done in point of fact, yet, Nikolai, there is some reality we must understand. All we do here is for struggle for existence. All of us indeed have to do struggle for existence and indeed sins from one perspective. You can not continue living without killing living beings. When you eat meat indeed there is sin for you can not eat it without killing, and even if you are a vegetarian the killing is involved.

Briefly on this topic of nourishment blaze. Even nature has provided a manner to spread life of one organism by nourishing another organism. Berries and nuts, and frequently some vegetables yield fruits that are devoured by animals, and then the seed is passed in the feces of the animal, and has its own little bed of nourishment. There is a way to live within nature, and not commit sin upon nature.

As for Nik's last statement, I think you can find an example on this thread of two individuals that fit his description. I prefer to think in the term of nourishing or encouraging the spiritual...

[blazeofglory]

Nikolai, you are a prolific reader and you have indeed a very big mass of knowledge. Indeed it is good to acquire knowledge and of course through books or others' ideas we can broaden our repertoire of knowledge.You have read the Gita and some of the great classics.

I too read as far as I can. I feel they broaden the horizon of knowledge indeed and they did in fact. Yet I have some reservation regarding knowledge. Knowledge at times stand ad a burden and of course it enlightens but at times it kind of leads us to a state of more confusion.

I know through your posts you have your own voice and I like that very much.
In fact one can draw upon varieties of sources yet one should have one's own opinions and ideas about things.

In fact I believe that spirituality is a pathless land and no branches of philosophy can guide us to it. No education, no knowledge can open the gate of it.

Spirituality has more to do with living. Living not by ideals, for ideologies clash
with one another.

I said somewhere that as far as spirituality is concerned I stand by the belief that man is not superior even to animals. Indeed books of religions oppose this notion, yet they too suffer limitations and are bound by some borderlines.

I do not think reading a particular sacred book makes one spiritual. Rather it is the way of living.

Nikolia, my ideals are equanimities. I know this is a very arduous course, yet I am trying. I do not like to assault or assail anybody both verbally and physically.

I do not like to be judgmental of things. I can not say I am right and you are wrong at all. For you have been conditioned in particular ambiance an I am in another. You live by one set of values and I by another. Values may clash, ideals may clash and misunderstandings or disputes may arise between us. In fact we never fight but our belief systems do. Therefore i\I am never judgemental of all that you say.

I try to understand about the base of your understanding, how you acquired certain pattern of thinking.

Even a sinner too is not guilty for it is his environment or the software that was installed or fed into him. Indeed we are clean of all ideals and therefore I do not like to criticize anybody just on an ideological ground.

I can not say I am a superior being just because I got a particular educational background. Maybe I could have been a murderer or any great commiters of sins, and it is the environment that shapes our course of living and that is why I am not critical of anyone

[NikolaiI]

Knowledge should be a good thing. I know like you say it can be a bad thing, or lead to confusion; this is usually when we have ideas and then we learn something that is different from them. Then we are in confusion over what to believe. I agree with you about not thinking something is right or wrong. I've come upon this recently, too. It's pretty amazing how we seem to develop parallelly. It's a rather difficult one to explain, the reason for thinking like this-- or not thinking in terms of absolutes. Perphaps the reason is that we just wish to keep an open mind? Or because things are always changing?

I agree that spirituality is pathless, yet there are many universals. That's why we come upon the same ideas, over and over. Philosophy should progress us towards peace and liberation, and knowledge should too. Learning is a great thing, and my own learning helps me in the direction I wish to go; yet I know that I do not actually need more knowledge.

It was good you said to be deconstructionalist. This is necessary before we can make further progress towards understanding. I believe rather strongly in something which is difficult to put into words. In almost every conceivable way, this world is an illusion, and there is a world of truer being. Be this God, or extinction, I have seen it and it really shattered my mind, and so now I have just an idea of this-- that what I experienced has again become an object, and I know I am not situated in this knowledge, it is now what I strive for in meditation. It is the transcension of this material world into the spiritual. Everything else-- all other knowledge about, well, knowledge-- knowledge about knowledge! Get this! :) All of it, anyway, is material, and all of it pertains to the material world. When there are words about transcension, well, they are written down on a material page, and are viewed as an object by me, the subject, which does not currently understand them and take their meaning to my heart, who is still bound in this world. So I try to go from the bad to the good. And then with knowledge I realize that my visions tell me, in the other world, what we do is beyond good and bad. In defining the self, it is a very, very lofty and complicated thing. When I observe myself, I actually allow myself to see myself as I truly am, although I cannot or perhaps could not express it in ten thousand words. But when I allow myself to see myself as I truly am, I know that is indeed different, completely different from all of my former material conceptions. As I try to realize my self, I simply try to break into the other world, and make progress on the spiritual path to the Supreme.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

When asked to move aside by Shankara's disciples, the untouchable replied: "Do you wish that I move my ever lasting Ātman ("the Self"), or this body made of food?"

This pretty much sums it up; pronouns are pretty much a fiction, and I have never seen a worthwhile definition for them.