What has brought about the philosophical changes in children's reading from Barrie an

[Midas]

Sorry, it cut the title short. It should have said from Barrie and contemporaries. I can't find a way to change it. I was trying to avoid it being reposted to the 'author's section. And I have not the time to waste messing around.

First let me say that this is not really my post. I don't like to start them, in fact I try not to get involved unless someone just strikes a cord and I have time on my hands.

No, this thread owes its origin to Jane Chan who posted a thread that was moved to the backwaters where it will die an unnatural death. I thought it an interesting thought for a discussion and that it was suited to the Philosophy site.

Its subject title was: Discuss this idea of Children in J.M Barrie's time .

But for reasons which I cannot comprehend, it was quickly moved. It unfortunately named an author, and children, yet, to me, the author's name was purely a sort of marker of a point of change in the way life has changed and affected how children, and even adults who often are the readers of stories to very young children have been moved away from the type of children's stories that influenced the young in Victorian times up until the period of the second world war.

Jane Chan merely asked for it to be discussed, following her opening comment:-
children in J.M. Barrie's time were very controlled and could only escape through fantasy. Discuss this idea.

Changes in life as events and time create new influences, also change, or bring adjustments to our philosophical approach to them. Or do they? You may see things differently.

Children are the adults of the future, and their behaviour, influences their children. We have here, as we will find often in discussions, philosophy rubbing shoulders with psychology.

I took the matter up with the 'management' and it was suggested I rephrase the thread but perhaps give credit to the originator. This I am attempting here.

I do hope you will find it interesting as you have all been children - some not that long ago, so can speak from experience. I am sure you will have observed some changes in children's literature and the philosophical changes, as in attitudes and views on life which has brought them about, and will continue to bring profound changes in the future. If so, I hope you will thank Jane Chan for her contribution.

[Midas]

The following was a response to Jane Chan's comment.

I cannot speak for other nations, but certainly for Britain, the real change came not from J M Barrie's time but from the WW2 especially as this devastating period in so many ways, came so soon after another period WW1
which also brought great change in many ways from the old order of things.

Barrie, himself, did not live to see WW2, but his works and influence lived on. Here I don't just mean Barrie, but all the other British writers who catered for children.

The word 'controlled' can have a rather insidious connotation. However, there was more 'discipline'. as in social order, in general. The family unit was stronger, and more people attended, as a family, some collective religious weekly gathering.

Everyone, seemed to know their place within the social order, that applied to adults as well as children. It was not something they had to work at, it was a natural, through nature and nurture, up bringing.

The educated, and wealthier classes in Britain set the accepted standard, and it was from this class, and I do not mean the aristocracy, from which most writers came. It was natural, therefore, that they were influenced by their world, their childhood, which flowed into their writing.

WW1 had great influence on Britain, and for some reason the word England was used more generally to mean Britain. For example even the war itself, which lasted almost five years of actual fighting, was a war of Germany against England. Barrie, and many 'English' authors came from other parts of the nation now more known as the United Kingdom. Barrie was from Scotland, that along with Ireland, produced many writers - especially where fantasy, and imagination were the genre. I suppose you could call Britain - fantasy island (though there is more than one island.)

Many great British poets and writers, and potential ones perished in the mud of Flanders. Families were ripped apart, I doubt if any single person escaped the horror in one form or another. Older writers lost their young sons.

The second war, following so soon on the first, was the last straw. It not only changed Britain, but changed the world.

For the Victorian child, and this age lingered long after her death, there was
not even a radio, never mind a television. Discipline at school was strict, and a respect for law and order, as well as authority which included teachers was
a natural course of events.

Britain, at that time led a huge Empire, and its navy ruled the seas. Its army, though never big, backed by the navy, maintained order as the world's policeman. It was always felt in Britain that you had to rule by example and so social order at home was essential

The Victorian social order which had not only influenced Britain for almost a century, but exerted influence on the world broke down at its roots, and Britain's power wained from the economic upheaval of the wars.

Today, the United States has had to take on that role, and even that country is now finding it is beyond its means.

Since WW2 technological developments in many areas, travel as well as entertainment, brought the changes that changed childhood. There are more interactive 'games' for computers based on realistic warfare. There were movies, and television and much depicting warfare, and crime, and that because it was all visual, did not require children to apply their imagination in the same way.

Imagination is still there, but tempered by the change in what we term 'childhood' (though this word is losing its meaning). For example, we have the success of Harry Potter. Many books were bought, however, I wonder how many were really read. But millions saw the movies as box office receipts will testify.

I have written the above in a hurry, without preparation, or editing, as I am dashing away for a week in Malta.

I hope it is not too disjointed, and I hope it may give a little insight to some of the many changes which have, and still are, taking place as the pace of change to our life quickens.

To me, what I love most about Britain, or, if you like the United Kingdom, is the great wealth of good literature, and in particular in stories centred on childhood and the age of 'innocence.' One of my all time favourites, and a book that I still read again and again is 'Wind in the Willows'.

I also like to take visitors to see the actual 'hundred acre wood' and 'Pooh Sticks bridge' made famous by A A Milne, the English writer. The actual sweet shop is still there where the author, or the 'nannie, would take Christopher to buy sweets (candy). I live not far from both.

Or to take a walk along the river bank where Mole first met 'Rattie' in the book 'Wind in the Willows'. Yes, it is still there,


If I had to be lost on a remote island, it is a book I would want to have with me. But I am a man, and as you girls know, we men just never really grow up, even though sometimes we pretend we do just to appear superior.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Midas]

I thought I would put forward this additional comment on the word 'controlled'.

We are all very much controlled today. We, and children, are controlled' but by a different means, and towards a different end.

Children want designer clothes, they worship 'celebrities' and are influenced by them, and their world. The influence comes from media in many ways. And there is a purpose behind it.

Children do not think as they do, and 'conform' to their peer groups by a natural process. There is nothing natural about it, except the habit that we
are easily influenced by what we see projected as mainstream. We are 'guided' (conditioned) to conform from childhood.

In other words, the control is there, but in a different form, and without the social order discipline. In order to challenge their parents and to 'demand' those designer clothes, children have been conditioned to resent discipline, and respect. But it is all 'control'.

[Scheherazade]

Jane Chan started the exact thread in various sections of the Forum so only one of her threads has been left open (the one in the right section). In all likelyhood, this is Jane's assignment and she is hoping to get some help.

This thread will now be closed as there is another on going discussion on this topic. Those who are interested can post their opinions there:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=489575#post489575