Abraham's dilemma

[weepingforloman]

Of course, you realize that the "no meat on Fridays" thing was primarily an economy-based decision by the papacy, and that almost no Catholics (except the hard-liners of sixty and up) still abide by it?
Secondly, faith without question is impossible: anyone who claims it is in self-delusion. Christ Himself asked "Why have You forsaken me?" We are ALWAYS allowed to ask questions. The real dilemma is: will you accept this, despite some difficulties, and trust God, or will you not?

[PrinceMyshkin]

Hi Wintermute!
Yes, those questions about God are amazing and can make us feel dizzy. For my part, I could not really discuss it because I have no knowledge in religious matters.
But, my opinion is that it is not really important to me to know if God exists or not. What I like is questionning things. We might never know the answers, and to me the questions are the most important because they make us think about everything from different perspectives. I cannot say I believe in God, neither can I say that I don't. I'm in the middle, I'm wondering. Since I don't know. It's not a matter of proof, because I'm sure certain things just cannot be proven, as human beings might not have all the tools.
I don't wish to enclose myself with the believers or with the non believers. Though, I admire it sometimes when people have a very deep faith and when this faith helps them in their everyday life. That is quite beautiful. I think that is just not the way I am. I prefer distancing myself from everything. I constantly have a question mark sitting over my head, and I'm happy this way. :) I won't laugh at people who believe in everything which is written in the Bible, because...why not? I won't laugh either at those who don't believe in anything, because maybe they are right. Now maybe the real truth (if there is one) is something no one had ever thought about. And maybe the truth is so much beyond our understanding that we are just not able to think it. Nothing seems unlikely to me. Everything is possible.

Wonderful response! I sometimes think that the real division in mankind is not between the believers and the disbelievers like myself, each of which is at times equally dogmatic and arrogant, but between those who know one way or the other and those - like yourself - who wonder and search or wait for an answer.


"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong... I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn't frighten me." Feynman, Richard, quoted in Gleick, Genius: The life & Science of Richard Feynman, p. 438


"A map will only get you to where others have already been." J. Newman

[Sweets America]

Hi Pen and Virgil and Sweets,

Sweets said, "Nothing seems unlikely to me. Everything is possible."

I couldn't agree more Sweets. I usually say anything is possible, nothing is certain--which is pretty much the same thing. That silly Matrix movie really messed with my head, lol.

It's the certainty of many that bothers me. I would be willing to bet large sums that the folks that flew the planes into the wtc were certain of their fate. Similarly, many of my christian friends are certain that the only way to salvation is to accept, without question (100% certainty), that Christ died for our sins. Well, I'm unable to do this--I've tried. So, these same friends (and I just spoke with one this morning), are absolutely certain that I'm doomed to an eternity in a place called Hell. I think this is rather harsh, and I'm just unwilling to accept a God that would be like this. Perhaps it's so, I'm definately not certain, and I may be on a one way journey to hades.

On the other hand, anything is possible. By my logic, nothing should exist. No energy, no matter, no God. Yet here we are, on a little chunk of rock and water, zinging through space in the corner of a relatively common galaxy discussing what may be going on in the fantastic universe. Ya gotta love it! Something really amazing must be going on. I just don't think it cares if we eat meat on Fridays.

I agree with 'everything is possible and nothing is certain'. This is strange that I say I agree with something while I just said I prefered asking questions than agreeing, but anyway.:p
I'm not sure that the certainty of people bothers me. Because maybe all those people are right, who knows? Yes, kamikazes are certainly sure of their fate. But maybe what they believe is true, who knows? What is not fair is the fact that they kill so many people because of that, even if they must think they are doing the right thing. They must not be bad persons, it's just that they are absolutely certain that they have found the truth, and they leave no room to doubt, and they are absolutely convinced that their action is good.
I see what you mean about not accepting a God who is like this, who would send you to hell. But well, as you imply, maybe God is actually like this. Why should God be all good, after all?

Jer, that is quite interesting, what you say about the way people could be divided. LOL, I love that you quote yourself!!!:lol:

And, to weepingforloman, I'd like to add that I'm not sure faith without questions is impossible. I do think there are people who believe without a doubt.

[Pendragon]

"A map will only get you to where others have already been." J. Newman

True. Ecclesiastes 1:

[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
[11] There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Every question we can come up with, somebody has already asked, got frustrated with, and flung aside. We just go to the pile, pick up a crumpled paper, and start the argument over again until we wear out the paper, then somebody writes down the same argument on a new sheet. Oh it may be better phrased or researched, but it is the same one, "refurbished", I think is the word Twain used.

Eventually we just toss it back in the pile. Why? Somebody found another one to argue about...

[RichardHresko]

A valuable counterweight to "everything is possible and nothing is certain" is the theory of gambling ascribed to Harry the Horse by Damon Runyon, "The battle goes not always to the strong, nor the race to the swift -- but that is the way to bet!" A position that one requires absolute certainty is one that is doomed to paralysis.

Further, it prevents one from seeing what is workable.

One may well ask what is the purpose of seemingly endless discussion and revisiting some arguments again and again.

What is the purpose of praying more than once?

I would suggest that the two points are not far apart.

One discusses things for both oneself (to deepen one's own thoughts on a point) and for others, to give them an alternative to consider. We are never the same person (if we are fortunate) when we revisit anything.

Just as prayer is not about making requests, and not about mouthing words of praise, but rather about bringing about a considtion of openness and communion. That we can use rosaries, the Jesus prayer, Om, and so on to help focus our souls on this act of communion with that which we value illustrates (not proves) that revisiting has its uses.

There is an expression in Latin that many monks have taken as their life's path: "laborare et orare" -- work and prayer. Ideally, I feel, ALL our work, here as well as elsewhere should be a prayer, one devoted to that which we feel draws us to our best.

Better than that I have not the imagination to want. Less than that I will not (for myself) accept.

[Pendragon]

You misunderstand, Rich. I didn't say that time spent revisiting the same things was valueless. I said we shouldn't always expect that we can figure out an answer. Some sheets do not go back into the pile. Why? Someone finally manages to figure out that answer. For every answer that we do manage to settle, it produces more for the "slush pile".

A case in point. When it was determined that the earth revoled around the sun, not vice versa, this answered several questions that man had blindly been stabbing at for years. But it also raised questions. What keeps the Earth in place? Does it always remain in the same distance? Are there other "Earths"? Is there life on other planets?

Some of these were answered. Some may never be. We may never reach the closest other star to know whether there is life on a planet there? It seems unlikely in our Solar System, but there are perhaps millions of suns out there.
The likelyhood goes up for another earth-like planet elsewhere.

Questions and postulations and answers. That' s life.