Violence and Sex in Liteature

[Dark Muse]

There is this Historical Liteature forum I recently discovered and joined up with, and a discussion that was occuring there made me think of something I seem to frequnetly notice that I find intresting. And was wondering if I am just the wierd one, which would not surprsie me really.

But anyway, they were talking about Ken Folletts book The Pillars of the Earth which I am reading right now and happen to love. But I noticed a lot of people complaining about the book because of its violence, and sex, in particuar scenes of rape within the book.

I have also noticed there have been a few other books and authors there I have heard complaints about for simillar reasons. For one example there is this seiris I am reading about prehistoric America, by Micheal Gear and Kathleen O' Neal Gear and I have heard people complain about that serirs becasue of its occurances of rape.

Though in my personal opinion in both these cases it was not excessively done and it was right in line with what would have really occured in the time period being written about.

Really scenes of sex, violence and rape within a novel do not bother me if they fit well into the story.

So I was just currious as to what other people feel about the portrayal of sex and violence within liteature.

[mtpspur]

I am very uncomfortable with rape in literature as I cam rattle off at least three ladies (and actualy two more came to mind) I have known personally who have suffered that gross violation of the body and spirit and I will always have a sense of sadness/anger at the concept. There simply is no excuse for this inpostion of self upon another (unless consensual and really ought to be saved for marriage if I may be so old fashioned in thought and belief. BUT that said literature is a reflection of reality and this is but one of the sadnesses thereof. But one should NEVER take this lightly or 'wonder' about it. If you know someone you'll understand if you don't I envy you your ignorance,

[Dark Muse]

I am not making light of it, nor do I think its inclusion of it within lietature nessciarly does so. But the way I see it, if a person is going to write most particuarly a historical fiction then they should not just leave out all the parts that are not nice, because that is not how history was.

[mtpspur]

Never for a minute thought you were making light of it thus my serious answer and my remark that literature reflects real life. It was a subject and question that deserved an answer from someone that's been there. Basically I noted you felt the use of the topic was in context and I applaud you for that. If I want gratutious sex and violence I can always read an Executioner novel (but that's popcorn and not to be taken seriously.) Yes history does tends to get santitized for the masses sometimes and an occasional wake-up call may be necessary to get a grip on reality. But for me I'm aways going to disturbed by and for that I make no apology. But again I did not and do not think you were making light of it--just thought you should get just a small taste of the real thing. For the record NONE of the ladies I have in mind are fully healthy in a positive way. And I still don't sleep well at night. We take our friend's pain personally--sometimes too much.

With respect and hopefully said in a calm rational manner--Rich

As to violence in historical novels--if you compare Hornblower/Sharpe novels both in the Napoleanic wars they is a vast difference in the descrption of mendying in the series. In Hornblower you are aware of the carnage of battle--in Sharpe you feel the pain and suffering big time. Does make a difference in the perception of the heroes. Hornblower maintains a certyain dignity--Sharpe always seems covered with blood and gore and madness.

[Noisms]

I've never understood people being offended by what characters do in books either. Just because a character is doing or saying something absolutely awful, it doesn't mean the author is condoning it.

Can you imagine somebody criticising Shakespeare because of what his characters get up to? (They probably get up to a lot worse in some plays than anybody does in the books you've mentioned.)

[Dark Muse]

It just surprsies me how many people will crizitze a book or author because they write such scenes in thier works. I just never really thought of it before, I guess becasue I read a lot of historical fiction and well rape and violence to some degree are always present themes in such books becasue that is what would have happend back then.

And I really do not think the author is condoning such by writing it into his chars, as in most the cases I have ever read, the perpitrator of such acts was clearly a bad guy and not someone you were suppose to like, but someone you rooted against.

In fact there is this excellent book called The Lion if Ireland by Morgan Llwelyn about this couple that were put in an arranged marraige but he really did love her but prior to the marraige she was raped and it showed how that ruined the relationship they could have had, becasue she could never really trust her husband and was ashamed of what happend but would not tell the truth so he tried his best to be patient with her and care for her but she would never let him touch her or show her affection and he did not understand why which began to frustrate him.

[NikolaiI]

I think I know what you're talking about in the novel of prehistoric America. I was reading the book but never finished it...of course it may be a different one in the series...now trying to remember all the names. Wolf-Dreamer was the protagonist...okay, the title of the book comes to mind now, People of the Wolf. Anyway, it wasn't bad to read. There's violence in Ender's Game.....one reason the rape in People of the Wolf wasn't so bad or shocking to read was because it was set in a lost place and time, now inaccessible. Erm, I dunno why. But I don't think reading about rape would cause more rape; it might cause less, because we see how awful it is and it raises our consciousness.

And Rich, if you knew every woman you know had been raped (I mean, if you knew the ones that had, had) then your number would be a lot higher. I know of 10-15 I think...and at least or only one male. An old statistic is 1/4.

[Dark Muse]

Yes People of the Wolf is the first in the seiris, I am on the secound book now, and I had someone tell me they did not like those books becacuse of the violence and the rape, but at least in People of the Wolf, I did not think it was like excessive or out of context to the story.

[Chava]

Hmm, i was disturbed by reading Clockwork Orange, a book about both ultraviolence and rape, but I'll admit that I enjoyed having my boundaries provoked, and I would argue that the point made through the violence is a good one.

[NikolaiI]

"The Gap Cycle" has a ton of violence, but I think it's great science-fiction.

[bluelightstar]

This reminds me of something an AP Exam Question said several years ago: In truly great literature, no scene of violence exists for its own sake. And I wholeheartedly agree. If this is a good piece of literature, then there's a point to the violent scene we are witnessing and must contribute to the meaning of the work as a whole.

[applepie]

Yes People of the Wolf is the first in the seiris, I am on the secound book now, and I had someone tell me they did not like those books becacuse of the violence and the rape, but at least in People of the Wolf, I did not think it was like excessive or out of context to the story.

I enjoyed the first book in this series. I never picked up any of the others, but not because I disliked the story. I may have to get the others now to read having been reminded that they exist. How many books is the series up to now?

As for sex and violence in a story... it depends on the story and the way that it is approached. In People of the Wolf, I felt it was rather tastfully approached, and it was important to the story. I've issues when it is merely tossed into the story for shock value and adds no insight or importance to the tale. I feel certain subjects should be used sparingly in storys, and they should only be included if it is VERY important to the plot.

[Dark Muse]

I currnelty have 6 books but there are still a few I do not yet have, I am not quite sure how many total there are

[Old Crow]

It depends, with me. There are very few things I won't read on moral grounds (quality's another matter). Sabbath's Theater, for instance, is (over)loaded with sex, but in that book it came out as more of a conceipt than an attempt to shock, mainly because it drives the character's and plot. Even I have my limits, though, and there are a few books I simply will not touch because I find the premise repugnant.

Violence I can tolerate in almost absurd levels, but if it's simply for shock value, I find myself more bored than offended.

[B-Mental]

Personally, I would rather have someone address the issues in historical novels, without romanticizing the era or conditions. I have friends that say, "Oh, I was born into the wrong era. I really wish I was born into such and such times." I can easily break down their romantic image of a time such as that versus the liberties and technologies they take for granted.

I do find that as I grow older the excessive use of violence is not necessary for most plots.

[Noisms]

Violence I can tolerate in almost absurd levels, but if it's simply for shock value, I find myself more bored than offended.

I had that problem in American Psycho. I sort of vaguely understood that it was all supposed to be a 'satire'...but the more I read it, the more I started to get the feeling that Ellis was just writing it for the shocks - and more importantly the sales that come from the shocks.

That bored me, and also made me very cynical about the writer and that novel in particular.

[Black Flag]

Consider, for a moment, a true piece of class lit — Tess of the D'Ubervilles by Thomas Hardy.
Tess is raped, but I think Hardy knew from the beginning he was going to have it happen to her because it fits like a puzzle piece into the whole dark story. The rape isn't graphically described. In fact, the reader doesn't even "get" to witness it. But it's there. And it's there for a reason. It's part of the story. Essential to it in fact. If Tess hadn't have been raped (near the quarter mark in the book) the story would have probably turned out happy. And we couldn't have that in a Hardy novel could we? That's why he's the MAN.

[Old Crow]

I had that problem in American Psycho. I sort of vaguely understood that it was all supposed to be a 'satire'...but the more I read it, the more I started to get the feeling that Ellis was just writing it for the shocks - and more importantly the sales that come from the shocks.

That bored me, and also made me very cynical about the writer and that novel in particular.

Definately. I had the same problem with American Psycho. It was written well enough, I suppose, but it didn't fascinate me at all, which is really what makes "scary" novels scary if you ask me: The fact that they can find depth, complexity, and, in alot of ways, soul in the worst parts of humanity. So, when something is written purely for shock value, unless you're simply less desensitized than most of us (which there's nothing wrong with), you'll just be bored.

[Corragiosso85]

Personally I think life can be tragic enough without reading about all the horrible and tragic things that go on. Surely that's what newspapers are for. Books for me are about entertainment. When I get comfy with a book I like it to be an enjoyment and a pleasurable experience. I don't derive pleasure from reading detailed accounts of sexual depravity, violence or mutilation.
If anyone does then good for them, whatever floats their boat!

[FacialFracture]

I understand a person preferring not to read books containing overt (or excessive) sexual/violent ideas and events, but I don't understand being offended by their presence in literature; I especially don't understand why some people will calmly read a book full of murder or war, then specifically draw the line at the mention of rape.

I'd imagine that it has something to do with how you read and enjoy books. I tend to read for the language, the ideas, and to grasp something of the author's intent in writing the piece. Other people read primarily because they take pleasure in associating with the characters, and building a sort of relationship with them. Obviously, if you form a personal attachment to the characters who populate a sexually violent/mutilation-happy book...you're going to have a different perspective on its use and appropriateness.

I like books that contain salacious, violent, and even grotesque ideas and events--but only when I feel they have a place in what the author is trying to say. As was mentioned before, American Psycho is a good example of a novel that seems mostly to just throw icky things in for shock value, and its rather nihilistic overall message doesn't do much to support the cruelty contained by it.

So, to summarize my not-very-helpful contribution...I guess, like anything else, it just depends on the book and who's reading it.

[Dark Muse]

Yes I agree, when I read a book which contains such things, though I am not bothered by such, as an avid consumer of Historical Fiction where both violence, sex and rape are rather common occurances to some degree or another as such things were promiment in history, it has to be written into the story to help the story along or the development of the characters.

One example of a book that I think is filled with unesscary sex, just thrown in there randomly and not really seeming to help either plot of char development is Norman Mailers Ancient Egypt, and I did not find this book an enjoyable read becasue and almost did not finnish it a few times. Becasue it was excessive and I did not really feel in context with telling the story.

[FacialFracture]

I haven't read Mailer's Ancient Egypt (or, um, any Norman Mailer book), but now I'm curious about it. I think your complaint with it is probably valid; sex and violence are kind of like exclamation marks--if you use them too often, they lose their meaning and make you look stupid.

If a book is all sex, it becomes numbing--like watching dull pornography on a loop; same with violence, which can be exploited and overused to a degree that puts it on par with boring smut. Of all the things that make a reader sit up and pay attention, sex and violence are pretty high on the list, so it's frustrating when they are so overused that it's like reading about...I don't know...someone making dry toast for hundreds of pages.

[Dark Muse]

Personaly I thought Mailer's Ancient Egypt was on the verge of pronography, almost every other scentence had to make some obcense reference, and that is not as much as an exergeration as it sounds.

[Pretty^Athens]

There is this Historical Liteature forum I recently discovered and joined up with, and a discussion that was occuring there made me think of something I seem to frequnetly notice that I find intresting. And was wondering if I am just the wierd one, which would not surprsie me really.

But anyway, they were talking about Ken Folletts book The Pillars of the Earth which I am reading right now and happen to love. But I noticed a lot of people complaining about the book because of its violence, and sex, in particuar scenes of rape within the book.

I have also noticed there have been a few other books and authors there I have heard complaints about for simillar reasons. For one example there is this seiris I am reading about prehistoric America, by Micheal Gear and Kathleen O' Neal Gear and I have heard people complain about that serirs becasue of its occurances of rape.

Though in my personal opinion in both these cases it was not excessively done and it was right in line with what would have really occured in the time period being written about.

Really scenes of sex, violence and rape within a novel do not bother me if they fit well into the story.

So I was just currious as to what other people feel about the portrayal of sex and violence within liteature.

hey dark muse,
well i agree with you about that, that sex and violence scenes don't bother me in litreture unless they're not used properely. if these scenes support the storylines, then i have no problem!

[Prince of Cats]

Violence in 'A Clockwork Orange' seems muted by the (at times beautiful and compelling) language. It seems in some way to hide us from the violence: we know it is there but we see it differently and through different eyes. Ultimately Burgess appears to ask a devestating question: is it better to choose to be bad then to be made to be good? We are meant, I think, to at least sympathise with Alex, but is this possible and would it be possible if it were not written with such striking language?

[AuntShecky]

The ancient Greek dramatists were on to something when the gory violence took place "off stage."

We seldom see productions of Elizabethan tragedies (other than those of Shakespeare and Marlowe) because the plays of Thomas Kyd et al. seem today to be almost laughably gruesome. Even some of the Bard's early efforts at tragedy, for instance, Titus Andronicus might be described with our contemporary phrase, "over the top." But Western civilization can thank the Gods that Will
saw the light and blessed us with his unparalleled language and insight into real human emotion.

In many --if not most of-- the so-called "mainstream" (not "literary") novels that have hit the American best-seller lists in the last three or four decades sex and violence is almost a requirement. It leads me to believe that publishers are that cynical, thinking that s &v are what the reading public will buy, and I do wonder how many masterpieces have been rejected because the plots did not contain the desirable quantity of sleaze and gore.

Saying that sex and violence are acceptable if they are "necessary to the scene" is a cop-out. Cf. Greek tragedy. I don't want to speak ill of Hollywood screenwriters and I agree with their grievances inspiring their current strike -- BUT why, oh why does so much of the dialogue contain the formerly verboten swear words?
It's one thing to use profanity as a way of establishing the
shady nature of a certain characters, but it's quite another particularly smelly kettle o'f ish to rely so much on
formerly-shocking curses. Filling dialogue with a barrage of verbal pornography really betrays a rich vocabulary and may even be a sign of indolence on the writers' part.

Although I believe this, I also deplore censorship of any kind, especially in the arts. Even so, the entertainment industry -- to use one of their buzz phrases -- "pushes the envelope" so much that there will someday be a backlash.
Either the viewing public will get damn sick and tired of it OR force the political establishment to start imposing incremental censorship. They'll start with the sex and violence, and before you know it, they'll zero in on political thought. I hope to heaven that never happens, but if it ever does, the entertainment industry has only itself to blame.

[PeeSlowlyAndSee]

Sorry to necrobump this thread, but this is a topic that relates to me.

Personally, I don't have any problem whatsoever with sex and violence in literature.
In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that the books I enjoy the most feature sex and violence.
I don't consider it a perversion at all, either.

The thing is, I just do not enjoy the happy, light side of life.
I find it extremely boring and dull.
I love the seedy, dark side of things--to me, that is exciting.

Does that mean I condone rape or violence?
No, of course not.
Do I believe the authors condone that type of behavior?
No, of course not.

Also, I personally don't know anybody who has been a victim of rape and/or sexual abuse.
But even if I did, I highly doubt that it would change my view on books/media featuring it.
I'm not making light of it, either; I'm just pointing out my thoughts on it.

[kelby_lake]

I can understand not wanting to read about certain things, especially if they've affected you, and that's fair enough. Puritanical whining about slightly controversial things really bugs me, though I don't think modern writers are helping.

In a book I recently read, The Glass Room, they had a random lesbian tangent for no apparant reason; it didn't seem to affect the two women at all.

Censorship in the arts was a frustrating time but at least it taught writers about subtlety. For example, in Sunset Boulevard, the guy is basically her prostitute. If they re-made that nowadays, we'd get loads of unnecessary gratuitous sex scenes.
Lots of writers seem to underestimate the power of subtlety; censorship meant that you had to refine your writing and convey your themes through some other way.

[Dark Muse]

Personally, I don't have any problem whatsoever with sex and violence in literature.
In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that the books I enjoy the most feature sex and violence.
I don't consider it a perversion at all, either.

The thing is, I just do not enjoy the happy, light side of life.
I find it extremely boring and dull.
I love the seedy, dark side of things--to me, that is exciting.

Does that mean I condone rape or violence?
No, of course not.
Do I believe the authors condone that type of behavior?
No, of course not.

Yes exzactly that is just the way I feel about it.

[PeeSlowlyAndSee]

I agree with Kelby on the matter of subtlety.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy graphic depictions (even though I'm totally desensitized to even the most extreme depictions), but I think there can be a point when there's just too much non-stop/in your face graphicness and that can certainly be a bit much (or boring) for some people.

It's like watching a horror movie made now where it's blood and guts everywhere as opposed to watching something like the original "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" where you know they're being slaughtered, but you don't actually see any of it.
if you ask me, that makes for a much scarier movie.

[Katy North]

When I saw the movie The Shining, I was terrified, but I sat through the whole thing. The most horrifying part of that movie to me was when the main characters wife read through his manuscript and discovered that all he had written was "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy". I still get the willies just thinking about it.

However, I can't sit for two minutes into one of the Saw movies or something with graphic slaughter. It's not because such films are necessarily scary though, it's just because the excessive blood and violence make me feel sick to my stomach.

I think there's a difference between making sure that real life is depicted and writing lurid details enough to turn someone's stomach. Briefly describing the murder or rape and going into its psychological effect on the surviving characters in depth is better literature than describing bright red guts strewn over everything.

[JuniperWoolf]

I also have someone very close to me who was brutally raped (hospitalized for over a month), it really affected my life. To call my feelings on the subject "intense" would be an understatement. Honestly, if it's done right in a novel it can be a tribute to the victims. Just shutting up about it and pretending it doesn't happen is a disservice, to ignore rape hurts waaaaay more than addressing it. It's almost like indifference, like sweeping it under the carpet.

They aren't "classics" (and as such, is probably looked down on by a few people) but I would say that those two Alice Sebold books Lucky and The Lovely Bones are examples of good tributes to rape victims in literature. I can't think of any examples in classics right now. Then there's something like A Clockwork Orange, it's pretty popular and has some sweet themes so all I'm going to say about that is that you'd feel differently about it if you'd been through what I've been through (difference in experience = difference in point of view, and all that). I can deal with the rape bits though, for the sake of the work as a whole.

Edit: That being said, the one thing that I hate almost as much as violence against women is censorship and the strong imposing their will on the weak (a la huge groups of conservitive christians coming together to burn/ban books); as much as I hate something that someone writes, I'll defend their right to do so. I'd rather argue against the subject matter and not the fact that the work exists in the first place, even if it's glorifying rape (oh and also, I'm totally not saying that A Clockwork Orange does this, because I don't think that it does).

[aquarium444]

There is this Historical Liteature forum I recently discovered and joined up with, and a discussion that was occuring there made me think of something I seem to frequnetly notice that I find intresting. And was wondering if I am just the wierd one, which would not surprsie me really.

But anyway, they were talking about Ken Folletts book The Pillars of the Earth which I am reading right now and happen to love. But I noticed a lot of people complaining about the book because of its violence, and sex, in particuar scenes of rape within the book.

I have also noticed there have been a few other books and authors there I have heard complaints about for simillar reasons. For one example there is this seiris I am reading about prehistoric America, by Micheal Gear and Kathleen O' Neal Gear and I have heard people complain about that serirs becasue of its occurances of rape.

Though in my personal opinion in both these cases it was not excessively done and it was right in line with what would have really occured in the time period being written about.

Really scenes of sex, violence and rape within a novel do not bother me if they fit well into the story.

So I was just currious as to what other people feel about the portrayal of sex and violence within liteature.

There is killings in a lot of em, but rape is not appropriate if the author is describing that act. If it is hinted at or mentioned in reference, than it is fine but what you are getting into is the history books, and not literature. A story is supposed to appeal to an audience. There are issues of morality, and techniques used for various purposes, and it is like art or an art form. If we were more like the barbarians though, than you could be right. We might want to listen to rapes, etc, but are we there yet?

[Katy North]

It's not about WANTING to hear about rape and murder... it is about hearing the truth from the authors. It's the same reason that the holocaust is taught in every world history class from middle school on. We don't want to hear about the holocaust victims and see the horrific pictures, but history teachers are determined to show them, so that kids are educated and know that if their government says something about "racial cleansing" it doesn't mean they're giving out free soap and bathtubs.

A properly portrayed rape or murder scene in a novel can have a purpose. As I said above, I feel that too much gratuitous violence and sex makes a book feel sleazy and cheap (and make me feel slightly ill). However, with the right amount of violence and sex a book can become more real, and the author can say what he wants to more clearly.

[aquarium444]

There is only one set way for the times that we live in. You need to import material if you want something different, but try to change what we have here and it is completely impossible. Things are set in stone, but the whole society does change periodically. Now we are starting to experience a global culture. I'm not sure where the violence comes from. It isn't in the main stream is it? I stopped watching.

[Dark Muse]

There is only one set way for the times that we live in. You need to import material if you want something different, but try to change what we have here and it is completely impossible. Things are set in stone, but the whole society does change periodically. Now we are starting to experience a global culture. I'm not sure where the violence comes from. It isn't in the main stream is it? I stopped watching.

Violence in liteature and even sex for that matter are not exzactly new nor are they a product of these times. But there are some rather graphic, as well as quite raunchy mattieral that has been written long before the modern world.

[aquarium444]

The history books that are to dry too read contain information such as that you are suggesting, but as for literature, any excessive violence is out of place. Now there is a reason for that. I'm just wondering that if the modern content tries to include violence, that the reason might simply be that the authors are inferior.

[wormofthebooks]

A good story is not always one that displays historical facts. A good book will invoke emotions of every kind, including pain, sickness, tears, and depression. The brutalities of rape and murder are not pleasant. But the author, if doing their job correctly and passionately, should not censor their work. If the purpose is to show the horrendous dark side of such acts, then they should go into the detail without holding back. I understand that many people have experienced life-altering pain and sorrow, but this does not mean that an artist should set restrictions on their creations in order to make the reader happy. We, as book connossieurs and artisits ourselves, should be the first to understand that a good writer does not write to please his audience, but to express himself and his ideas. Everyone is a critic and not everyone is going to like an artist's work, but this does not keep the artist from offering his work for the enjoyment of others.

I agree that Hollywood uses rape and violence as a cheap thrill. For example, "The Hills have Eyes". You can't possibly tell me that movie had any real value as a piece of art. The teenage girl getting raped by a couple of mutated freaks is a grotesque way to get people to watch it. All of us humans have a sick dark side and though we may not like to acknowledge it, its there.

[Dark Muse]

The history books that are to dry too read contain information such as that you are suggesting, but as for literature, any excessive violence is out of place. Now there is a reason for that. I'm just wondering that if the modern content tries to include violence, that the reason might simply be that the authors are inferior.

Did I say anything about history books?

Have you ever read Dante's The Inferno? It is quite vivid and graphic. Heck even the Bible has its decent share of violence and sex. As well as The Epic of Gilgamish has its fare share of sex and violence and many a more works of mythology, and what of the writings of the Marque De Sade?

The list goes on.

There are many historical literary works (not history books) that are chalk full of violence and sex.

It is not a modern trend.

[aquarium444]

Dark Muse: I have heard of all of those books but I've only gone through the Bible partially. The poem Inferno, is too difficult for me to read.

wormofthebooks: Why shouldn't they try to censor it? That is part of the skill of writing. The villains need to be bad people, but nothing more than evil. Not damaging to the reader.

[papayahed]

The history books that are to dry too read contain information such as that you are suggesting, but as for literature, any excessive violence is out of place. Now there is a reason for that. I'm just wondering that if the modern content tries to include violence, that the reason might simply be that the authors are inferior.

Have you read Titus Adronicus by Shakespeare? It rivals anything modern I've read.

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse: I have heard of all of those books but I've only gone through the Bible partially. The poem Inferno, is too difficult for me to read.

Well my point was simply that it is incorrect to make the presumption that the inclusion of violence and sex within litature is a result of modern trends and modern soceity, it has been around for as long as written langauge has been around.

[wormofthebooks]

The richness and depth of such detail, good or bad, is important. It depends on what the writer is trying to acheive. Do you have a favorite author? I'm sure the style of that author is consistent throughout all of his or her works. Some authors use that censoring style. leaving much to the imagination and for some readers, that is enough. It's enough to know that an action is taking place. But for others, they need to taste it. They need to feel it. They need the details and it makes the story even better and allows for a more intense response. If I am reading a book with severe violence, I allow the writer to tell me the story the way that he wants to. If I like it, I like it. If I don't and I think it was inappropriate, then that is not an author that appeals to me.

[aquarium444]

papayahed: Shakespeare is really tough to read. I've only read Hamlet, and Othello (but not with as much effort). I wouldn't mind reading Macbeth. Yes, I know that he uses historical figures such ask Henry IV, but I have actually never heard of the title that you mentioned. That is asking for a lot, to read that. At least I know about it now...Titus.

Dark Muse: Yes, I know, you are correct. I meant that the modern writers write about violence simply to fill the pages.

[papayahed]

papayahed: Shakespeare is really tough to read. I've only read Hamlet, and Othello (but not with as much effort). I wouldn't mind reading Macbeth. Yes, I know that he uses historical figures such ask Henry IV, but I have actually never heard of the title that you mentioned. That is asking for a lot, to read that. At least I know about it now...Titus.



Sorry, I was just asking because the play is pretty violent and it really surprised me when I read it. It rivals anything I've ever read in terms of violence.

[aquarium444]

wormofthebooks: I like Bram Stoker and I read Stevenson really lightly but it was great, and of course H.P. Lovecraft. Not all of Lovecraft's or Stoker's books or short stories are good. All of these authors had amazing powers, but the powers were either on or off.

[Dark Muse]

Dark Muse: Yes, I know, you are correct. I meant that the modern writers write about violence simply to fill the pages.

In some cases that may be true, but I do not think that is always the case. Literature would be a bit bland if it was all prudish and chaste. And if violence and such things happen in real life, why should writers censor such things from their writing?

Should authors simply ignore or not write about anything that "isn't nice" that seems a bit unenlightening and counterproductive to me.

And to be honest, I personally do not think it is a entirely a bad thing or wrong for people to fictitiously entertain their darker, and baser instincts and nature. Just because some people might enjoy reading about or writing about violence in literature does not mean they condone real life acts of violence but there is nothing wrong with allowing our minds to act out our darker fantasies and escaping into worlds that our forbidden to us.

[aquarium444]

Sorry, I was just asking because the play is pretty violent and it really surprised me when I read it. It rivals anything I've ever read in terms of violence.

Well they fed people to lions and whatnot at the games, did the romans.

[aquarium444]

In some cases that may be true, but I do not think that is always the case. Literature would be a bit bland if it was all prudish and chaste. And if violence and such things happen in real life, why should writers censor such things from their writing?

Should authors simply ignore or not write about anything that "isn't nice" that seems a bit unenlightening and counterproductive to me.

And to be honest, I personally do not think it is a entirely a bad thing or wrong for people to fictitiously entertain their darker, and baser instincts and nature. Just because some people might enjoy reading about or writing about violence in literature does not mean they condone real life acts of violence but there is nothing wrong with allowing our minds to act out our darker fantasies and escaping into worlds that our forbidden to us.

You have got to be kidding, right? Well, I am just a boy.

[Dark Muse]

No I am not kidding, I am not ashamed of the fact, nor do I think it a bad thing that I love violent movies and am unbothered by the occurance of such within the books I read. It provides an escape and I do not think it does any harm to enjoy ficticonal violence.

[wormofthebooks]

I think its human nature to enjoy a bit of violence now and then. Some of us with embrace our dark side and some of us tend to repress it. Neither is right or wrong, it's simply a choice. Personally, I find the dark side to be adventurous and exciting sometimes. Not that I would like to be tortured or anything.

Aquarium: I love Bram Stoker. Dracula has been my favorite book since I was a teenager. I've always been fascinated by the underlying sensuality. But that could turn into a whole other discussion...

[Jozanny]

I do not know that I care for depictions of violence that are too graphic, like the film The Proposition, which I regret having rented, although I have gotten telephone calls from editors during blizzards because they liked what my work indicated about violence against women.

I cannot give an either or answer to this, because I've been a victim of violence and sustained trauma, and I know what it has cost me, and I would suspect that a sustained diet of gore and porn causes an erosion of moral reasoning, and I am all too aware of the impact of easy gun availability in the inner cities of the US; if anything it makes Eastwood's old movies nearly seem like high art, because life is cheap on the receiving end of a gang battle in Philly's neighborhoods--and I suspect that literary arts which expose it are not moving towards healings or solutions.