How to have immortality without God... Why does the world exist?. [Archive]

blazeofglory

11-24-2007, 09:34 PM

Let us see if we can find an answer to the following :

How to have immortality without God... Why does the world exist?.

This is an eternal question and is indeed very disturbing and intriguing too.

We all exist, and that is why I write for the forum, and indeed we live here together and are spirited so that we animate one another and can make others feel like living.

But why do so?

Why do we exist?

In terms of cosmic space and time we are fleeting. in perpetual flux and evaporate like morning smokes or vanish like bubbles in the sea.

Yet why we have an ego? Why do we feel we exist as if we are immortal.
All these questions beguile me and set me restive for hours.

That all of us exist is a fact and that is why we are connected. That every creature is born to die and indeed all are living beings deferring deaths.
Yet we keep on accumulating things, ideas, possessions, wealth and the like and why do we do so is a question.

I have a thousand and one questions

jon1jt

11-24-2007, 10:31 PM

why do we exist and what does god have to do with it?? i thank god for red wine and cold beer to forget about these questions. :)

schadenfreude

11-25-2007, 02:50 AM

Maybe there is no reason for our existence. Maybe we just exist.

oracle13

11-25-2007, 11:32 AM

Whenever I have to answer this question (it sometimes just springs into my head out of nowhere) I turn to two main arguments.

1. Existentialism.
2. The fact that there are so many things that make me happy in life.

The main doctrine of existentialism that I have taken away from reading is that existence is absurd without belief in a higher purpose - but the recognition of this fact allows me to realise that my existance will be defined by...my existence. If that makes sense. And if I concentrate on everything that brings me joy - art, sport, women, etc, then my existence is predominately a happy one. Somehow or other, I exist and I'm alive, so I might as well concentrate on giving myself the most happiness while I do!

NikolaiI

11-26-2007, 03:51 AM

The question why for me is answered by the directive to make this century much better than anything previous. Not the century beginning at 2000, but beginning at 2007, even more precisely, at this moment; at a moment a week ago. "The world" is not Earth, but my own world, the current time, and the future...

That's what came to mind. How to have immortality without God? Who can manifest God? Immortality is basically infinity; happiness that changes lives for the better.

mayneverhave

11-26-2007, 04:25 AM

I don't feel any type of immortality is possible.

Ultimately, the greatest humans in history, Shakespeare, Napoleon, Julius Caesar, are all dust.

One could argue that they live on in memory. This is nonsense. Of course the memory of many a man lives on after he dies, but how could that man appreciate his posthumus reputation, since, after all, it's posthumus. He is dead; cares and appreciations are beyond him.

Secondly, despite Shakespeare's lofty reputation (I will continue to return to him as an example because of his universal appreciation), if the human race were concievably whiped out, say by nuclear war, Shakespeare's reputation would be whiped out.
Could immortality be found in something as fragile as memory? In mere seconds memories may be lost and a "soul" will become oblivion.

Although I personally disagree with a cyclical view of history (eternal recurrence, etc.), it could provide a type of immortality, or at least give our thoughts and actions more meaning and signifigance, like in the "what we do in life echoes in eternity" line from Gladiator.

If the universe continues expanding until it reverts back to one singular point, only to "big bang" yet again, endlessly, immortality, at least for history and matter, could exist. But then again, that disregards any life, especially humans.

But I digress..

And as for what schadenfreude said about existence.

"Maybe there is no reason for our existence. Maybe we just exist."

I couldn't agree more.

I find that almost all humans require some sort of meaning or signifigance in their lives in order to be happy, or to feel that life is worth living.

I believe the opposite. A life without any guidance or meaning provides for the ultimate freedom. Dostoevsky is often misquoted as saying "without god, anything is possible". Well take that a step further, "without meaning, anything is possible". A universe without absolutes or objective truth and value is essentially the most free environment possible, there are no limites.
Nihilism, in this light, is an optimistic undertaking.

People need to read more Camus.

NikolaiI

11-26-2007, 03:48 PM

"No, no, what I mean is, why are we here at all? Why are we on this Earth?"

"Because the Earth can support life."

"Nevermind."

"Thank you, I will."

oracle13

11-27-2007, 12:14 PM

I have a few clashing views on religion and happiness which I wanted to get some opinions on. I was watching a debate between Richard Dawkins and...someone McGrathy (?) about the existence of the God and the usefulness of religion in society. Its on google video if you want to watch it, I'm afraid it wasn't actually all that interesting but nonetheless it raised a few interesting points (for me anyway).

The main contradiction in beliefs I have is this. I believe that those who have faith in the Catholic God or any other deity are simply allowing their existential angst to manifest itself in an entirely natural way. Yet at the same time, allowing people to hold beliefs that can cause grave harm to others (fundamentalists of all kinds) seems foolish, especially if these beliefs are entirely fictional.

Should I be opposed to religion entirely, like Dawkins, on the basis that a belief in something that isn't real is slowing down 'real' human progress? Or should I be tolerant and accept that many people find deep meaning and spirituality through religious belief - perhaps a deeper happiness than a life without religion can give?

I know this is wildly off topic but this seems to be the way my thoughts have led me.

NikolaiI

11-27-2007, 01:54 PM

Human progress has stagnated and we have switched back to survival, and Dawkins' opinions and theories have nothing to do with that. One problem is our thinking. We think we have come a long way in psychology, for example, but only the very, very best psychologists of the (last) century came anywhere near the spiritual heights of certain past teachers like Milarepa, and others. Seriously, if you read what Milarepa wrote, you'll see it completely blows everything else out of the water. As in, how deep it is, and all that.

To get back to the topic, I just wanted to say that although I agree with Schad, oracle, and maynever, I'm a little more open-minded about it than maynever. I don't assume that I truly know anything about time, or immortality. I do agree basically the only chance for immortality humans have is the eternal return idea, but I don't discount it. Perhaps one moment is equivalent to eternity. I've read this in sacred texts- one moment is equal to ten thousand years, and I like it.

Timur

11-27-2007, 06:25 PM

mazHur

11-27-2007, 06:29 PM

How do we know that we are not immortal?We dont know with certainty whether we had a previous life or not. And we dont know what happens after we die. So we just might be immortal after all. We just dont know it at this time.

Your comments allude to the theory of Aavagon (reincarnation) but this theory is NOT universally accepted.

oracle13

11-27-2007, 08:45 PM

Well, the burden of proof lies upon people who believe we may be immortal in this case. All empirical evidence suggests that we are conceived as entirely new beings and end our lives in death. There is no perceivable evidence to suggest that we are immortal.

Western culture is much more sceptical of religious belief in the 21rst century. It seems odd to me, therefore, that belief in a human 'soul' or 'spirit' is still so prevalent. Much more sensible to me is the term 'consciousness.' The idea that the soul is somehow seperable from the body seems odd to me.

edit: this post was directed at Timur

crazefest456

11-27-2007, 10:21 PM

So if we assume that there is no god or higher being, why do we expect ourselves to be immortal? Does this eternal state serve us much purpose?
The world exists as we exist, it's pretty much a cycle in any form of creation: We die, we leave behind our belongings (vanity and ideas and descendants), as do plants and animals, who die and enrich the soil for more life. So if there is no end in our cycle, then consequently, the world (our tangible universe) shouldn't end either.
But of course, every cycle has disruptions that might lure it away from the normal, causing its own self destruction. A modern example is our treatment to our environment; not only is the biosphere deteriorating, but it's KNOWN that there's is a very low chance that we can reverse this danger. But, still, we know that the earth tends to repair itself immediately, even if something destroys all life on earth, nature prevails, eventually.
Then comes the question that how is the earth doing this? How are humans functioning without a supreme being(s)? We know how the humans can think (by electric-chemical impulses) or breath (movement of a cartilage-diaphragm), etc., but what is really doing all this? String theory seems to explain this (I don't know how, I need to read on it), but what forces are doing all this in unison, simultaneously among innumerable systems? Why should the universe even exist if there is no immortality? Is our collective consciousness the reason for our immortality (in this hypothetical situation)? But isn't this collective consciousness a supreme thing anyway?

I guess I have no answer, just more questions. Maybe everyone, and no one can answer this question? Maybe there is no answer because this situation can't exist? :confused:

mayneverhave

11-28-2007, 01:42 AM

as comforting the thought of the our tangible universe existing after i die is, it doesn't do much for me personally.

the simple fact is, death and the end of consciousness negates any enjoyment i can receive from the idea that i live on in memory.

of course, it's a completely different argument to say that this idea is not comforting. Many people take solace in the fact that they may live on through their children or works.

I, for one, refuse such naivety

Remarkable

11-28-2007, 11:57 AM

mazHur

11-28-2007, 12:07 PM

Immortality without aging would be Okay for me, other wise there's no sense in living for ever with old age and disease. What's the fun of it then?

An oriental poet rightly said:

Oh, God, what good are these houris to me?
Aeons of time old, these hags !
No, i won't accept such rotten stuff
If you opt to send me to heaven
In the hereafter !

blazeofglory

12-08-2007, 11:42 AM

Maybe there is no reason for our existence. Maybe we just exist.

You are cent percent right, and there are no nuances of doubt in your ideas, and of course we do not know why do we exist. I am really moved by the honesty with you stated.

Who knows why we exist. Do scientists know? Do philosophers? Do spiritualists know? All guess and make hypotheses or presumptions.

Maybe some know, some metaphysics may have revelations or the Bible, the Gita, the Koran or the Buddha. I am not full convinced.

I am sorry I cannot subscribe to any particular theory that can convincingly answer or have answers to this question, the question of existence. This is the most harrowing question.

Nothing is more interesting than this thing of course.

blazeofglory

12-08-2007, 11:46 AM

Excuse me,but why should there be immortality?Have you ever imagined how it would be to live forever and ever and ever and ever and never be able to escape?It is a very prosaic question,but don't you think you would be tired?In the end,there is a point at death,which I believe everyone has very well understood.

That there is death and everything has to come to an end or to a full-stop is something abominably true, but there is a renewal. Life may again manifest in but in different forms. There will be something after death.

Everything is immortal.

stlukesguild

12-09-2007, 11:38 AM

I find that almost all humans require some sort of meaning or signifigance in their lives in order to be happy, or to feel that life is worth living.

I believe the opposite. A life without any guidance or meaning provides for the ultimate freedom. Dostoevsky is often misquoted as saying "without god, anything is possible". Well take that a step further, "without meaning, anything is possible". A universe without absolutes or objective truth and value is essentially the most free environment possible, there are no limits.

Yes... this is true. Without God and without meaning life has no limits. The ultimate freedom. But what does this mean? The author Peter S. Beagle suggested something of this in his marvelous book on the 15th century Flemish painter, Heironymus Bosch:

... it is hard for me to remember a time when I did not know... that there was nothing human beings would not do to one another, for the pure pleasure of it, and that their evil will neither be prevented in this world nor punished in the next. The Nazis may or may not have lost a war, but their howl of triumph still echoes everywhere, every minute. Nothing is forbidden, there is no covenant. The lightning does not come. Civilization has always flourished in the shadow of this knowledge, and our own culture has even trained itself to climb it, like a morning glory vine. We call it "the existential dilemma" and "the human condition", but (the 15th century) called it the Devil.

NikolaiI

12-09-2007, 11:58 AM

"Without God"
-
There are some science fiction authors who have put forward in books that a being we might consider God is nothing more than a human, sent back in time;
you see, humans evolve powers over time and space, perhaps we become energy beings, and then one goes back in time to watch over the race, to make sure they don't die off.

Adolescent09

12-09-2007, 02:54 PM

Perhaps we try too hard to seek consistent answers for questions not placed within the realm of mortal understanding. Longevity is the closest man has ever approached to immortality. Biological fact and scientific evidence has disreputed physiological immortality to the stuff found in myths and prattled about by gypsies. Memory is the closest thing tantamount to immortality and the only device left to immortalize our ancestral figures.

Someone before mentioned that memories are not saliently tangible since the phenomenon that brought us into this world can just as swiftly and inconspicuously take us out; this is true. But immortality is something we at the present and generations ahead of our time can only ponder until "death do us part".

Only in death will we be privy to the never mortally conceived explanation on the essence of our existence and life in general.

the simple fact is, death and the end of consciousness negates any enjoyment i can receive from the idea that i live on in memory.

of course, it's a completely different argument to say that this idea is not comforting. Many people take solace in the fact that they may live on through their children or works.

I, for one, refuse such naivety

Enjoyment? That sounds ulterior if not a tad narcissistic. Who contended that you, I or anyone else's relevance in death was joy? Memory is the only tangible evidence of immortality. The relief or disgust you feel from that self-evident fact has no place in this argument. Both solace and enjoyment are mortal comforts, attained and desired by conscientious individuals. When we, or if we depart that conscientious state in death who can say that we keep the mortal passions of solace, joy and content?

hyde park

12-10-2007, 03:39 PM

Immortality in what way? I do not care what is left behind me, the things I do and are visible to others, I dont consider of much importance. But each of us as an individual must "feel" inside, that there is something more to life...If there was nothing after death the life itself would not make any sense at all. Our existence - for no reason?

blazeofglory

12-14-2007, 10:08 PM

"No, no, what I mean is, why are we here at all? Why are we on this Earth?"

"Because the Earth can support life."

"Nevermind."

"Thank you, I will."

Nikolai, you are a manifestation of truth. I like this answer and of course it answers the question I had earlier on ' why are we here ? ' Indeed in a sentence you answered it. With this I am sure no profundities go unplumbed. Really unfolding!!!

Remarkable

12-23-2007, 10:51 AM

That there is death and everything has to come to an end or to a full-stop is something abominably true, but there is a renewal. Life may again manifest in but in different forms. There will be something after death.

Everything is immortal.

Well,that is a physics law,but here we are speaking of metaphysics.In the end,how could it be immortal?How could a sould be transferred from one lifeform to the other?We don't even know what the soul is!In fact,the soul might very well be a creation of ours and what does its work is the mind and some feelings or insticts tirggered by hormones.Very unromantic,no?But so are also the reasons why it rains,why it's hot and cold and...why we die.

As for why the world exists,the answer is simple:because many and many years ago big collisions happend all through the universe(they still do,however)and elements mainly coming from dark matter formed today's matter.The purpose is quite another thing.We don't know it yet.But we are on the right track I believe,now that we at least know the reason.

mayneverhave

12-24-2007, 05:04 AM

Enjoyment? That sounds ulterior if not a tad narcissistic. Who contended that you, I or anyone else's relevance in death was joy? Memory is the only tangible evidence of immortality. The relief or disgust you feel from that self-evident fact has no place in this argument. Both solace and enjoyment are mortal comforts, attained and desired by conscientious individuals. When we, or if we depart that conscientious state in death who can say that we keep the mortal passions of solace, joy and content?

I think you are misunderstanding me slightly. I agree with you that memory is the only tangible evidence of immortality. If death ends consciousness, we can't very well feel happy, sad, discontent, or any other feeling towards how we lived our lives because we are dead and no longer conscious.

I am saying that while we are living - and therefore conscious - a lot people take solace in the fact that they will be remembered after their death. In my opinion, this solace/comfort is evidence of either naivety or ignorance on the part of the thinker. At the risk of quoting the movie Fight Club, we have to realize that one day we are going to die. Or better yet, live in the knowledge of our inevitable death like Heidegger's "being-towards death".

Our posthumous reputation seems rather irrelevant when we can have no awareness of it.

codyle

12-09-2009, 11:51 PM

Three things:

1)
they arranged themselves, of course, through trial and error everything was formed. And I suppose everything will just disarrange itself when there's not enough materials to keep it as it is.

I do not believe there's an such a thing as an actual, conscious deity that actually cares for this human race.

That explains HOW we got here, not WHY we are here. When we speculate about the reason for our existence we are usually talking about some kind of purpose; now one may argue that because we got here through molecules arranging themselves through trial and error, then we are here for no purpose, and therefore there is no reason for our existence, we just exist. But in my opinion you merely described the mode of our coming into existence. Of course the big big bang itself could be a justification for the existence of god, because if every action needs a cause, what caused the big band if nothing existed before it? A theist would conclude that god did, however this does not mean that god is a personal god.

2) Immortality is indeed quite plausible and attainable without a god. At the speed of light time ceases to exist and infinity sets in; so if humans were able to travel at the speed of light--in say some kind of space-craft--we could conceivably become immortal.

3) You all should read up about advancements in quantum physics that have found that everything needs conscious interpretation in order to exist, because unless they are interpreted they exist only as theoretical infinite possibilities (i.e. everything that could have happened). So god could be existing right now and be interpreting events as they arise, therefore turning them into reality; or god could be existing in the future and be interpreting the entire history of the universe, thus giving it actualization.

http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j11/goswami.asp

Also, as a side-note, that something is not universally accepted doesn't entail that it is invalid; saying that it would be valid is a logical fallacy--i.e. that appeal to common belief. For example, doctor's and scientists used to believe that blood-letting cured sickness, and jews and black people were inferior--now would you argue that because those were taken as established facts that they were true?

blazeofglory

12-10-2009, 06:26 AM

God is allegoric and to understand God if He really does exist we want a higher mental dimension. We are barred from understanding God. Demystification of God is a challenge to all, and that is why many take refuge in mysticism thinking that science cannot reach the extent ff truth in point of fact. Scientific methods of searching for God are unending and we will wind up with nothing, the mystery remaining veiled.

As to having immortality without God all I can say is that man is immortal knowingly or unknowingly in essence; for we do not know what is God and our cranium is too limited to gauge the scope of God, He is all embracing and all pervasive. I remain silent about this topic.

Coming to immortality all I believe is that man is immortal. Death is a short respite and it simply transforms us one state to another the way sunlight transforms snow into water. Snow dies into water and how can we say snow dies? A seed dies into a seedling. Even if we do not believe in an afterlife there are other forms in which we survive. We may survive in the forms of clay, water, air when our physical corpus decomposes.

Man is immortal with or without belief in God. I never feel that death is my end. For I believe I am the cosmos

"The beginning of the universe
Is the mother of all things.
Knowing the mother, on also knows the sons.
Knowing the sons, yet remaining in touch with the mother,
Brings freedom from the fear of death." - Tao

virginiawang

12-10-2009, 06:58 AM

"Maybe there is no reason for our existence. Maybe we just exist."

I couldn't agree more.

I find that almost all humans require some sort of meaning or signifigance in their lives in order to be happy, or to feel that life is worth living.

I believe the opposite. A life without any guidance or meaning provides for the ultimate freedom. Dostoevsky is often misquoted as saying "without god, anything is possible". Well take that a step further, "without meaning, anything is possible". A universe without absolutes or objective truth and value is essentially the most free environment possible, there are no limites.
Nihilism, in this light, is an optimistic undertaking.

People need to read more Camus.
It is beyond my ken. My life needs sparckles to make it worth living, to make me linger when I have to leave. To view my existence as a thing that merely happened, wouldn't have left even a trace on the path I took sounds really dreadful. Perhaps I am not a philosophical woman indeed.
I once read Camus, but I abandoned the book at the second page. Sorry.
He gave me the feeling that it would not matter at all if he were to die tomorrow. It bored me tremendously.

virginiawang

12-10-2009, 09:33 AM

Yes... this is true. Without God and without meaning life has no limits. The ultimate freedom. But what does this mean? The author Peter S. Beagle suggested something of this in his marvelous book on the 15th century Flemish painter, Heironymus Bosch:

... it is hard for me to remember a time when I did not know... that there was nothing human beings would not do to one another, for the pure pleasure of it, and that their evil will neither be prevented in this world nor punished in the next. The Nazis may or may not have lost a war, but their howl of triumph still echoes everywhere, every minute. Nothing is forbidden, there is no covenant. The lightning does not come. Civilization has always flourished in the shadow of this knowledge, and our own culture has even trained itself to climb it, like a morning glory vine. We call it "the existential dilemma" and "the human condition", but (the 15th century) called it the Devil.

I do not understand at all what devils have to do with not having meanings in life. An obscure region of my mind told me that devils need meanings in their life more than any other creature on earth does. I do not see a connection between a devilish woman and a nun. In addition I don't think a life being meaningful restricts the course of it at any rate, so I cannot see how an insipid life which a monk leads suggests the word, freedom.

codyle

12-10-2009, 05:52 PM

I don't see how life could be anymore free without a god than with one. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that your point is that since god would cause us to act in a certain manner, out of say fear of eternal damnation, we would not be free. But isn't our behavior already governed by causes? Say I robbed a jewelry store because I was recently laid off from my job and I need to feed my family, would you say I did this out of my own free will or that my dire situation caused me to rob the jewelry store? How about if someone much stronger than I was caused me to rob a jewelry store by grabbing my arm, forcing me to throw a rock through the window and then physically making me go inside and steal the jewels; is that situation really different from the first? If every action has a cause and every cause has an explanation, and if for an action to truly be free it must not have a cause, then we do not have free will.

JuniperWoolf

12-10-2009, 09:31 PM

3) You all should read up about advancements in quantum physics that have found that everything needs conscious interpretation in order to exist, because unless they are interpreted they exist only as theoretical infinite possibilities (i.e. everything that could have happened).

Yeah, I've heard that theory, and I disagree. I think that the idea that things wouldn't exist without our perception of them is arrogant (but I'm not great at physics, so maybe I'm missing something).

I think that we ARE immortal, in a very basic way. The material that I'm made of has always existed. I've been a part of stars, other people, animals, planets, I was there when the universe began, and I'm going to exist forever (see The Fountain, that's what influenced me in this regard). Whether I have consciousness or not doesn't matter to me. I think that consciousness is over-rated anyway, I'm not convinced that what I am is any more then a series of memories and a system of emotions. When I die, these memories die too and I (as Robin Trimble, former human being) may cease to be, but my real solid being exists forever. Organisms seem to me to be a lot like inanimate objects, except that we are tiny little bits working together in an extremely complicated system. I don't know how this system began, or why, but that doesn't really matter.

That's my guess at the moment, anyway. This could change.

The Atheist

12-13-2009, 06:43 PM

Ever thought how those elements got arranged in a specific fashion to constitute this universe and all it contains? Who arranged them in their positive order and who will disarrange them and when and why??

There is no "who" arranged anything. The matter from the big bang formed patterns consistent with the nature of matter and energy - including the dark kinds.

In at least one case, those patterns have allowed "life" to commence.

There is no why, there just is.

I understand your difficulty with it, but there could be infinite universes where no ordered pattern exists and matter just floats about.

I don't feel any type of immortality is possible.

Me neither, and lucky for us:

Excuse me,but why should there be immortality?Have you ever imagined how it would be to live forever and ever and ever and ever and never be able to escape?It is a very prosaic question,but don't you think you would be tired?In the end,there is a point at death,which I believe everyone has very well understood.

Yep, I do reckon I'd be a touch bored after the first trillion or so years.

Should I be opposed to religion entirely, like Dawkins, on the basis that a belief in something that isn't real is slowing down 'real' human progress? Or should I be tolerant and accept that many people find deep meaning and spirituality through religious belief - perhaps a deeper happiness than a life without religion can give?

I know this is wildly off topic but this seems to be the way my thoughts have led me.

There is no "should" involved beyond doing what you want to.

But, still, we know that the earth tends to repair itself immediately, even if something destroys all life on earth, nature prevails, eventually.

Actually, we don't know anything of the kind.

There is no evidence outside of Lovelock's Gaia nonsense (which isn't evidence anyway) that the earth is anything other than a rock subject to forces of nature, some of which are beneficial to the sustenance of life.

Then comes the question that how is the earth doing this?

Good question, I'll await your answer on the bit above.

How are humans functioning without a supreme being(s)? We know how the humans can think (by electric-chemical impulses) or breath (movement of a cartilage-diaphragm), etc., but what is really doing all this? String theory seems to explain this (I don't know how, I need to read on it), but what forces are doing all this in unison, simultaneously among innumerable systems? Why should the universe even exist if there is no immortality? Is our collective consciousness the reason for our immortality (in this hypothetical situation)? But isn't this collective consciousness a supreme thing anyway?

I guess I have no answer, just more questions. Maybe everyone, and no one can answer this question? Maybe there is no answer because this situation can't exist? :confused:

You're confused alright, and confusing quantum mechanics and human emotion isn't the least of it.

Things are just as explicable without a creator providing a "why".

As Tommy Aquinas realised, reductionism is a bad ploy, although in his case, he managed to turn it to suit his hypothesis.

JuniperWoolf

12-13-2009, 08:26 PM

Yeah dude, string theory has absolutely nothing to do with explaining why life exists. Physics is my weakest science, but my vague memory seems to suggest that string theory is an attempt to explain the composition of the universe (it sounds stupid, but the idea is that everything is made up of strings. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it).

You're asking questions that have been asked over and over again by every great mind since the origin of thought, and so far no one has even the slightest hint of an answer. I almost drove myself insane doing this (I'm really not exaggerating). If it starts to bug you, my advice (once again) is to not even bother. You'll never understand, so just let it go.

skib

12-13-2009, 10:38 PM

blazeofglory

12-14-2009, 05:18 AM

And how do we know that we are immortal? How do we know anything about it? Meditation, etc etc can give you personal insights, but may these insights not be products of the mind being turned loose? Look at your dreams. Where in the world does all that crazy stuff come from? I'm with jon, wherever he went. Have a beer and start thinking about things you can figure out for sure. We'll all be dead one day, and then we will either go on to the next life or we'll be rotting. Either way, our questions are answered whether we're conscious of it or not.

This is a hard question to answer and nobody knows it yet it interests everyone in the world. I believe in immortality, and my concept of immortality is somewhat different from the rest in that even if man dies he will decompose into the substances he is made of, and the fact we must know is that he survives in the elements of the universe; for we are the soil, the water, the air, the sky and the fire and we will survive in them. We cannot analyze how we will survive. We are the universe and part of it, and the sun and man are basically or universally not two different entities, and the difference if any we picture is an illusion. There is a universal soul and the entire universe is not inanimate; they are vital and vivacious and the problem is with us for we fail to understand this spirited world for we are not endowed with that capacity to comprehend this secret. Maybe some sages through great penances and contemplations can visualize that part of us; a different dimension of us that is not visible to us. I am not speaking this with authority for I just believe like this. I am not stringent to what I say; maybe tomorrow you can convince me of the contrary. I am open to ideas, newer ideas. I do not have a fixation with sets of theories people promulgate. The idea I am fashioning may go a great amount of change, for I am not theorists.

homeros4U

01-18-2010, 06:25 AM

Let us see if we can find an answer to the following :

How to have immortality without God... Why does the world exist?.

Here is my humble opinion.

The answer seems to be hidden in the question. For by asking "why" we pressuppose the existence of reason and hence a reasoner (God) prior to that of the world (universe).

To find out whether anything without God is possible, we first need to find out whether an explanation of the world without God is possible, and start with the question "How does the world exist?" not "Why does the world exist?".

Only after finding a satisfactory answer to this question can we find out if any kind of immortality is possible. And such an answer, we do not yet possess.

Therefore, my humble response is: we do not yet know how to have immortality without God.

When we find out how and achieve it we might have self sufficient advanced robots by then who might refer to us as immortals.

Yea, who knows, after all, history might repeat itself. :D

billyjack

02-25-2010, 01:13 PM

keys to immortality--small meals. warm baths. circular breathing. making love...worked for alobar

MrRegular

02-27-2010, 04:15 AM

Not to seem to new age about this but I am convinced at the moment that we exist to be a form of perspective for the universe. We are a way for the universe to know itself. The big bang and the formation of random matter into complex systems can be compred to the subconcious congregation of elements to form a fetus. There is a base entity which is attempting to create and refine something.
This is evident in the everday lives of us all. The constant state of challenge in which we all live is a procedure established partly by our own collective subconsious minds (a popular tool for the base entity) and partly by the material world. This state exists to mould us into more perfect individuals, thus being pieces of a more perfect whole, until eventually we have something similar to an Ubermensche (super man) or some other variation on the theme.

eric.bell

03-03-2010, 05:18 PM

Let us see if we can find an answer to the following :

How to have immortality without God... Why does the world exist?.

Let me start by saying that answering said questions is infeasible, if not impossible; and I lean toward the latter. But with that said--I do believe that explaining to one’s self or even to others is both feasible and possible, and that it is the very nature of man to ask these questions, as well as search out their answer(s). I would also add one question: what is the fundamental drive (and thus the fundamental means to happiness) for mankind?

The meaning of man’s existence, to me, is no more than to exist. No more, no less. As is any other perception that our senses show us. What greater meaning could there be than to exist? Nothing, say I. What is mankind’s drive? Hunger and thirst; for all manners of things: food and water, love and lust, material and immaterial (i.e. righteousness in each individual’s manner and ideal); life and, finally, death.

Now, Immortality…can we not say that we are immortal? We are made up of that which makes up all things, and as we die we provide for something(one) else’s birth. So, if we are all made up of that which makes up all things and if when we cease to exist (cognitively [i.e. our own perception of our existence]) we simply give what matter is needed for another’s existence to another, then we, ourselves, live on through others; as others have lived on through us. I’m not sure that I’ve made my self clear, so I will put it more simply. Matter makes up all things. We are made of matter. Matter is indestructible (at least without our discussing anti-matter), therefore immortal. We are immortal, because the matter that is (a specific) man lives on in others. The matter that is you was once the matter that was a tree; the matter that is you will be the matter that makes up a deer--or something along those lines.