Jews

[bazarov]

This will sound maybe complicated, and I’ll try to explain my dilemma on most understandable way I can. Jews…
I am walking down the street, sun is shining, it’s a beautiful day, and my buddy and I are eating choco ice cream. We passed by some Indian tourists and he asked me: ‘’Who are they?’’ I said; Indians. We passed by some Serbs tourists and he asked me: ‘’Who are they?’’ I said; Serbs. We passed by some Bosnian tourists and he asked me: ‘’Who are they?’’ I said; Bosnians. We passed by some German tourists and he asked me: ‘’Who are they?’’ I said; Germans. We passed by some tourists from Israel, the question was the same and the answer was: Jews.
Now, Indians are Hindus, Serbs are Orthodox, Bosnians are Muslims, Germans are Catholics and Israelians are mostly Jewish. But why no one never says that they are Israelians; everyone says they are Jews? I have never heard for some of those above ‘’He is a Muslim.’’ No, it was always :’’He is a Bosnian’’ . He is a Serb, not He is an Orthodox. So why only Jews are named by their religion?
I thought it’s maybe rude or unpolite but even on the Jesus’s cross was sign INRI – last I stands for Jews. On many places in Kings, they are talking about Jewish state or nation, but there is also mention of nation of Israel. So it’s not offending. So why then they aren’t called Israelians or their state is not called Jewsa or something like( no offence, you know what I mean)???

[dzebra]

Being a Jew requires being in the Jewish bloodline, Abraham has a son Isaac. Isaac had a son Jacob. Jacob's name was changed to Israel. All of his descendants were Israelites. Jewish tradition says that Judaism began with the covenant between God and Abraham. Israelites and Jews are the same thing in that respect. The other name for these people, as far back as Abraham, is Hebrews. That's because of the language they spoke, and where they lived.

So Abraham was a Hebrew, as were his descendants. God made a covenant with him, and that's when they became Jews. Then, through his offspring, Israel came to be.

Of course, there was the other son of Abraham, Ishmael, who went to be a father of Islam, but he was not a son of Israel. He was an uncle of Israel.

For Israel, history and religion are inseparable. Nowadays, one can follow the laws of Judaism and be considered a Jew. This gives "Jew" two different meanings: a descendant coming from the covenant between God and Abraham, and a follower of the laws of that Moses told his people at Mount Sinai.

To answer your question, I figure that people in Israel are called Jews because that's synonymous to whatever they might be called, and so no one bothers to call them anything else. That's just a guess, though.

[Etienne]

Well I say Israelians, as saying Jews is rather imprecise, you have american Jews, canadian Jews, franch Jews, Russian Jews, etc, etc.

[Virgil]

Now, Indians are Hindus, Serbs are Orthodox, Bosnians are Muslims, Germans are Catholics and Israelians are mostly Jewish. But why no one never says that they are Israelians; everyone says they are Jews? I have never heard for some of those above ‘’He is a Muslim.’’ No, it was always :’’He is a Bosnian’’ . He is a Serb, not He is an Orthodox. So why only Jews are named by their religion?

I think you're confusing nationality with religion. Until very recently (1948) Jews did not have a homeland but were minorities inside many different countries. Their identity was more linked to their religion than to their country. But if you are familiar with many Jewish people you'll discern the varieties of Judaism. Read about Judaism here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew. Plus to call an Israeli a Jew is also imprecise. 25% of Israelis are not Jewish.


I thought it’s maybe rude or unpolite but even on the Jesus’s cross was sign INRI – last I stands for Jews. On many places in Kings, they are talking about Jewish state or nation, but there is also mention of nation of Israel. So it’s not offending. So why then they aren’t called Israelians or their state is not called Jewsa or something like( no offence, you know what I mean)??
People from Israel are called Israelis. Most Jews are not from Israel and therefore are not Israelis.

The Roman dismantling of the Jewsih state in the first century sent a diaspora across the world where they became minorities within the evolving Eurpoean states.

[Midas]

Until very recently (1948) Jews did not have a homeland but were minorities inside many different countries.

Why does anyone need a 'homeland' other than the land in which he/she is born, or later chooses to make his/her home. I say chooses as opposed sent somewhere to live temporarily by a company.

Homeland should mean where you have made your home in every respect by birth, or choice. Israel should be the 'homeland' of those who have made Israel their home, by birth, or choice. Whether Israel should have existed in the first place is another argument, and even Jews are divided on this.

People who are Buddhists, Muslims, or Christians have been persecuted but they do not need a homeland other than the country in which they were born or have chosen.

Jews who follow the Torah, and not the Talmud, reject the State of Israel.
in principle. To them it is an anathema to their religion.

I believe that once (it may still), the US Government followed the line that there were only three 'races' in the world and this was determined not by nationality but by facial bone structure - Caucasian (some say Caucasoid), Mongoloid, and Negroid.

However, the basis of the Jewish, and the offshoot which became the Christian religion have as their basis book of 'the word'. or bible, what is generally known as the Old Testament. Those who accept this as the 'word of God, or to some Jews - G-d, then we all came from the same source - Adam and Eve. So we are all related.

You can see, already how complicated this is getting, and we haven't really started. We haven't even mentioned Zionist - because it will get nowhere, but can get very emotive. And this is why I will leave it here.

To go back to the original post. The main reason you have not heard he or she is 'Israelian' is that there is no such word. As the previous poster mentioned, a citizen of Israel is known as an Israeli and you hear this word quite often.

[SleepyWitch]

Germans are Catholics
sorry to split hairs, but we're roughly 30% Catholic, 30% Protestant and 30% none, plus some Muslims (Turkish immigrants), some Orthodox, some Jews


Religions:

Protestant 34%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 3.7%, unaffiliated or other 28.3%
CIA world fact book (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html)
:)

edit: bazarov, are you from Russia? what's the Russian word you had in mind? еврейский?

[hellsapoppin]

``So why only Jews are named by their religion? ``


According to the Bible, Jews were members of a tribe, not a religion.

That same Bible teaches that the Promised Land is to be inherited by members of all 12 tribes, not just one. Moreover, the New Testament teaches that all Christians (that is, those who accept Jesus as Messiah) become heirs to that Promise as per Galatians 3.

The Koran teaches that Muslims accept Jesus as Messiah per Sura 4, Lines 156, 169, and Sura 5, Lines 77, 79. Therefore, they, too, are heirs to the Promised Land.

Ironically, Ashkenazim Jews are not descended of Abraham per Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe and, therefore, are Gentiles meaning that they will not inherit the Promised Land according to biblical teaching. Disputed DNA tests attempt to link Ashkenazim with Abraham, while attempting to debunk the link between him and Falashas, but they are not at all convincing.

[jlb4tlb]

sorry to split hairs, but we're roughly 30% Catholic, 30% Protestant and 30% none, plus some Muslims (Turkish immigrants), some Orthodox, some Jews
CIA world fact book (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gm.html)
:)

edit: bazarov, are you from Russia? what's the Russian word you had in mind? еврейский?

Sleepy, thank you for the break down. My mothers side of our family is of German descent and are Lutherans. Do you know what percent of the Protestants in Germany are Lutherans?

Thanks

Jeff

[Etienne]

Ironically, Ashkenazim Jews are not descended of Abraham per Koestler's Thirteenth Tribe and, therefore, are Gentiles meaning that they will not inherit the Promised Land according to biblical teaching. Disputed DNA tests attempt to link Ashkenazim with Abraham, while attempting to debunk the link between him and Falashas, but they are not at all convincing.

Koestler's theory is that most European Jews (the Ashkenazim) descend from the Khazar's conversion, but this theory doesn't have many supporters, especially when you consider that European Jews have had a big population in Europe since the Roman empire and that there nothing else that suppositions to support this thesis. Also DNA tests have mostly discredited this thesis and it happens that most of the tenants of this thesis have a political agenda that is to claim that Jews have no claim to the land of Israel.

[SleepyWitch]

Sleepy, thank you for the break down. My mothers side of our family is of German descent and are Lutherans. Do you know what percent of the Protestants in Germany are Lutherans?

Thanks

Jeff


Sleepy, thank you for the break down. My mothers side of our family is of German descent and are Lutherans. Do you know what percent of the Protestants in Germany are Lutherans?

Thanks

Jeff

hi Jeff, hm, I haven't got any figures on that, but I think most of them are Lutheran and only a few are "Reformed" (Calvinist/Zwinglian)


My mothers side of our family is of German descent and are Lutherans.
in that case, you should visit my new thread The Kraut Konspiracy (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30360)
at the moment there's mainly silly jokes and stereotypes in it, but I will add some information about different German regions and states. maybe you can contribute a bit about "German" life in America.
[/offtopic]

[bazarov]

To answer your question, I figure that people in Israel are called Jews because that's synonymous to whatever they might be called, and so no one bothers to call them anything else. That's just a guess, though.

I guess that's something what I thought to be main reason.


Well I say Israelians, as saying Jews is rather imprecise, you have american Jews, canadian Jews, franch Jews, Russian Jews, etc, etc.


I think you're confusing nationality with religion. Until very recently (1948) Jews did not have a homeland but were minorities inside many different countries. Their identity was more linked to their religion than to their country. But if you are familiar with many Jewish people you'll discern the varieties of Judaism. Read about Judaism here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew. Plus to call an Israeli a Jew is also imprecise. 25% of Israelis are not Jewish.

People from Israel are called Israelis. Most Jews are not from Israel and therefore are not Israelis.



I haven't confused anything, maybe you didn't understand me. I said it will be complicated :)
I know all that, about Balfour and 1948 and percents, but that's not important now, in my opinion.



To go back to the original post. The main reason you have not heard he or she is 'Israelian' is that there is no such word. As the previous poster mentioned, a citizen of Israel is known as an Israeli and you hear this word quite often.

Well, I apologize for this mistake, English is not my 1st language.


sorry to split hairs, but we're roughly 30% Catholic, 30% Protestant and 30% none, plus some Muslims (Turkish immigrants), some Orthodox, some Jews

edit: bazarov, are you from Russia? what's the Russian word you had in mind? еврейский?


Well, I could put any country, those were just examples...Yes, my mistake, hope Martin Luther will forgive me. I was in Germany several times and all I have seen were Catholics so I just wrote Germany, without thinking.

No, I am Croat, but yes; еврейский is a Jew.

[Shield&Sword]

Hello all
Dzebra Isaac is hebrew and so his son Jacob and so on because of his mother Sarah. Abraham is not hebrew, if he is then his son Ismael is hebrew but he is not, he is father of arabs. Abraham was not hebrew
If a jew woman get married with a non jew man the children are jews, if a jew man get married with a non jew man the children are not jew. So the blood of the woman decide if the son is jew or not. Thats why Sarah is the mother of hebrew and Hajar mother of arabs.

[Thinkerr]

The difference you missed is that there are two types of Jew. Ethnic Jews are simply descended from Isaac and have Jewish blood, but don't necesarily follow Judaism. Religious Jews can be of any race or bloodline, but follow the religion of Judaism.

[weepingforloman]

The name Israel comes from Jacob, whom God gave the name Israel. The nation is named for him- just as, in scripture, the Hebrews are sometimes referred to as "Abraham." The name "Jew" comes from the southern kingdom of the nation (after a civil war) which was called Judah (JOO-duh). Judah=Jew. Historically, they mean the same thing, "Israeli" and "Jew."

[Corragiosso85]

[QUOTE=bazarov;483310] But why no one never says that they are IsraeliansQUOTE]

Some people would of course argue that Israel doesn't exist.

Personally I was good friends with a chap called Richard whm turned out to be an Israeli. On finding this out I didn't however begin referring to him as a jew, but of course as an Israeli. And why? Because he came from Israel! If he had been a jew who had been born and bred in the streets of Glasgow then why on earth would one call him an Israeli?
"Israeli" is a term that defines people from Israel, no?

[weepingforloman]

The modern nation of Israel is not, of course, the same as the Israel of scripture. However, the historical root of both terms is identical: the ancient nation-state of the Hebrews- Israel, Abraham, Judah, Zion.

[bazarov]

So, after excluding that I have messed up some nation-religion facts, my only conclusion is that people are stupid and uneducated?

[blazeofglory]

This will sound maybe complicated, and I’ll try to explain my dilemma on most understandable way I can. Jews…
I am walking down the street, sun is shining, it’s a beautiful day, and my buddy and I are eating choco ice cream. We passed by some Indian tourists and he asked me: ‘’Who are they?’’ I said; Indians. We passed by some Serbs tourists and he asked me: ‘’Who are they?’’ I said; Serbs. We passed by some Bosnian tourists and he asked me: ‘’Who are they?’’ I said; Bosnians. We passed by some German tourists and he asked me: ‘’Who are they?’’ I said; Germans. We passed by some tourists from Israel, the question was the same and the answer was: Jews.
Now, Indians are Hindus, Serbs are Orthodox, Bosnians are Muslims, Germans are Catholics and Israelians are mostly Jewish. But why no one never says that they are Israelians; everyone says they are Jews? I have never heard for some of those above ‘’He is a Muslim.’’ No, it was always :’’He is a Bosnian’’ . He is a Serb, not He is an Orthodox. So why only Jews are named by their religion?
I thought it’s maybe rude or unpolite but even on the Jesus’s cross was sign INRI – last I stands for Jews. On many places in Kings, they are talking about Jewish state or nation, but there is also mention of nation of Israel. So it’s not offending. So why then they aren’t called Israelians or their state is not called Jewsa or something like( no offence, you know what I mean)???

Bazarov, I am very deeply wounded and sad at the fact that we have identities. This is nonsense. I debunk it. Man has no identity. Why the hell Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and all the gibberish stuff? Why attach to religions? Why fight in the name of religions or Gods? What do your gods and religions give you ultimately? We are simply human beings nothing else? Is it not enough to live like a moral and considerate human being? Why this bunk identity. Damn all identities. And all that remains of you is humanities.

[Etienne]

Bazarov, I am very deeply wounded and sad at the fact that we have identities. This is nonsense. I debunk it. Man has no identity. Why the hell Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and all the gibberish stuff? Why attach to religions? Why fight in the name of religions or Gods? What do your gods and religions give you ultimately? We are simply human beings nothing else? Is it not enough to live like a moral and considerate human being? Why this bunk identity. Damn all identities. And all that remains of you is humanities.

I think you giving intentions to Baz that he didn't have...

[bazarov]

Bazarov, I am very deeply wounded and sad at the fact that we have identities. This is nonsense. I debunk it. Man has no identity. Why the hell Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and all the gibberish stuff? Why attach to religions? Why fight in the name of religions or Gods? What do your gods and religions give you ultimately? We are simply human beings nothing else? Is it not enough to live like a moral and considerate human being? Why this bunk identity. Damn all identities. And all that remains of you is humanities.

I am sorry, but you got me totally wrong :(


I think you giving intentions to Baz that he didn't have...

Exactly.

[Niamh]

Hah! Unfortunately, people are stupid regardless of education (including myself).

I've personally never referred to an Israeli as Jew without knowing if they were a Jew or not, nor have I heard anyone else do this, but I don't really see the big deal. They do have a giant Jewish star as their flag. ;)


We do associate the star of David with jews but when you think about it David was a king of Israel, and regardsless of what religion he was, he was still a very important king historically for Israel, so they do have the right to use the star.:)

[aabbcc]

Judaism is a national religion.
In other words, one cannot be of Jewish faith, but not of Jewish people (the reverse is possible, Jews who do not believe in G-d), and when a person of not Jewish descent (and halakhic laws require a maternal line, i.e. if your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew; if your mother's mother is a Jew, you are a Jew, etc; if only your father is a Jew, you are technically not, though there are non-Orthodox movements who disagree with it) desires to join Jewish faith, s/he, when converting, converts not only to Jewish faith, but also to Jewish nation. Literally, one abandons one's previous identity in favour of a new Jewish identity, and upon receiving a new name after conversion, as one is no more a child of one's biological parents, one becomes daughter or son of Avraham and Sarah (interestingly, the other Jews, i.e. Jews by birth, not by choice, are called simply children of Israel). But I am going off-topic; the bottomline is, from Jewish perspective, you either are a Jew, or you are not (even if you are not religious but happen to be a Jew by halakha, they consider you 'theirs'), it is impossible to be Croat-Jew, for example (but it is possible to be Croatian Jew - a Jew of Croatian nationality, who resides there, but is Jew by ethnicity).

When it comes to Israeli, Israeli is a nationality, means belonging to a country, not to a nation or religion; so Israeli Arabs are as much 'Israeli' as Jews are. However, as the whole secularization thing is rather new in Jewish world, there is still strong affilation to feeling "Jewish" more than "Israeli".

So, to conclude, you can be an Israeli Jew, or a diaspora Jew, you are Jew in both cases ethnically, but you are not Israeli in both cases.
Hope I cleared it a bit ;)

[iorix]

christians are jews. christianity is jewish sect based on the teachings of prophet jesus who was a jew. rabbinism is a jewish sect based on the teachings of the rabbis who were (are) jews. some people converted to rabbinism and became jews others converted to christianity and equally became members of a jewish schismatic sect.

the word "jew" is so broad that noone falls under the label "jew"

mohammed was also descended from abraham so he could also be called a jew according to some people's definitions

[aabbcc]

Iorix, there is a pretty strong consensus about who is a Jew, the only problem being that non-Jews are not aware of that consensus.
From the Jewish perspective, and point of view of Jewish law - and that is halakha - Jew is a person born by Jewish mother, or a gentile who converted to Jewish faith (and was accordingly adopted into Jewish nation, in literal sense of the word). Full stop.

What you are writing technically has some ground; yes, Christianity originally started as Jewish sect; yes, the main dogma of islam also follows one and only G-d and 'continues' the Judeo-Christian tradition; yes, Jesus was only one of the people who claimed themselves to be Messiah and there are sects within judaism with other Messiahs, etc. But you cannot seriously today claim all of them to be Jews, nor are they recognised by Jews as Jews, that is silly.

The fact that some Yehoshua appeared at some point of history, claimed he was Messiah, and that some people followed him, and that furthermore Paul made a very romanticised variant of judaism for that new religion, all of that to judaism means nothing. They cannot accept Christians as Jews for an entire set of dogmatic differences.
They do not observe mitzvot.
They do not think that G-d is one, they invented the concept of Trinity; even if they acknowledge Tanakh as the first part of their holy script, the second part of that script, NT, is so contradictory to Tanakh that it makes little sense.
Their Messiah did not do the things Messiah was expected to (go to Jerusalem and let me know if the third Temple appeared meanwhile :rolleyes:).
They do not accept Oral Torah.
And have I mentioned that they do not observe mitzvot?
They are, in short, not Jews, and throughout the history and mixing and all that jazz, one cannot seriously consider the maternal line any longer as argument for their Jewishness. You cannot seriously debate that they are Jews, and Jews themselves do not recognise them as such.

Sure, there are multiple definitions of who is Jew; but from Jewish perspective (and that is, after all, what matters), there is only one, the one I wrote above. And they do not fall under that definition.

[Virgil]

christians are jews. christianity is jewish sect based on the teachings of prophet jesus who was a jew. rabbinism is a jewish sect based on the teachings of the rabbis who were (are) jews. some people converted to rabbinism and became jews others converted to christianity and equally became members of a jewish schismatic sect.

the word "jew" is so broad that noone falls under the label "jew"

mohammed was also descended from abraham so he could also be called a jew according to some people's definitions

Well, come on. It may have been a sect at one time, but I think a lot has happened in the iterim. I think there is a fundemental distinction. It's not like Protestants and Catholics or Sunni and Shia Muslims.

[Logos]

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