Angels and Saints in Catholicism and Protestantism

[SleepyWitch]

I've got a question about angels and saints. I used to believe that Catholics have them but Protestants don't (although there seem to be some Protestant saints, notably Protestant martyres).
Now, my boyfriend does volunteer work at a fair trade store run by the Protestant church and when they have a meeting to discuss business, his colleagues usually do general blablahow-are-you-did-you-have-any-nice-experience-lately first.
so this one woman talks about angels all the time. she brought along a picture of an angel and said something along the lines of "angels are always with us and watching over us" (THEY ARE AMONG US :eek: :alien: ).
this sounds a bit spiritualist/new age/ esoteric or maybe Catholic, but definitely not Protestant.
so, did I get it all wrong? what about angels and saints in different Christian denominations? and if your denomination has them, do you believe they are all around us or are they just nice statues used to decorate churches?

mods: sorry I don't know any bible quote about this, I hope those who answer will quote passages from the bible or other religious writings that deal with this question. hope it's OK.

[Granny5]

Sleepy, I am a member of the Episcopal Church and we have Saints, and I do believe in Angels. Maybe I believe in angels because it's a comfort? I don't know but I do believe in them. I also believe that the people I love who have passed on know what's going on in my life and watch over me and my family. Maybe I believe this because it's a comfort too. I don't know? But why not? The Bible talks about angels here on Earth back then, so why not now?

[Virgil]

I'm not knowledgable enough to speak about Protestants, Sleepy, but I think there are varying positions between them. I think you should look at the split bewteen Lutherans (and their decedants) and Calvinists (and their decedants). You may find that there is as big a split between them as between Lutherans and Roman Catholics. Anglcans are fairly close to Roman Catholics in many respects. The bottom line of my point is that Protestants vary in tradition greatly between them and I don't think you can assume a monolithic position for all Protestants.

[Granny5]

I'm not knowledgable enough to speak about Protestants, Sleepy, but I think there are varying positions between them. I think you should look at the split bewteen Lutherans (and their decedants) and Calvinists (and their decedants). You may find that there are as big a split between them as between Lutherans and Roman Catholics. Anglcans are fairly close to Roman Catholics in many respects. The bottom line of my point is that Protestants vary in tradition greatly between them and I don't think you can assume a monolithic position for all Protestants.

Virgil, I agree with you. Also, I think there is varying positions between members of the different churches. It's more a personal belief than a rule of any Protestant church. Most Protestant churches leave room for personal belief's held by their members. It's not as cut and dried as the Catholic Church.

[Virgil]

Virgil, I agree with you. Also, I think there is varying positions between members of the different churches. It's more a personal belief than a rule of any Protestant church. Most Protestant churches leave room for personal belief's held by their members. It's not as cut and dried as the Catholic Church.

Quite right, and actually even the Cathloic church leaves areas of personal belief, but perhaps not on this. Episcopal I think, if I'm remembering my history of Protestanism, descended from Anglicans.

[Granny5]

Quite right, and actually even the Cathloic church leaves areas of personal belief, but perhaps not on this. Episcopal I think, if I'm remembering my history of Protestanism, descended from Anglicans.

Correct. We interchange the name Anglican and Episcopal. We are the American branch of the Anglican Church and the Archbishop of Canterbury is the leader of our church w/o the power the Pope has, of course.

[SleepyWitch]

Correct. We interchange the name Anglican and Episcopal. We are the American branch of the Anglican Church and the Archbishop of Canterbury is the leader of our church w/o the power the Pope has, of course.

what about Lizzy? I mean the the queen of England. Is she the head of the Anglican church only in England and around the world it's the Archbishop of Canterbury?

[Granny5]

what about Lizzy? I mean the the queen of England. Is she the head of the Anglican church only in England and around the world it's the Archbishop of Canterbury?

As far as I know, she has nothing to do with the church here in the U.S.

[Poppy]

As far as I know, she has nothing to do with the church here in the U.S.

Granny is right. The Anglican Communion is the body of the church throughout the world. In the US, the name Episcopal was adopted. Presently there is a split among the Episcopal church in the US and the world wide Anglican community over the issue of accepting the ordination of bishops and priests who are gay. There are also divisions of the Episcopal Church in the USA.

Poppy

[Granny5]

Granny is right. The Anglican Communion is the body of the church throughout the world. In the US, the name Episcopal was adopted. Presently there is a split among the Episcopal church in the US and the world wide Anglican community over the issue of accepting the ordination of bishops and priests who are gay. There are also divisions of the Episcopal Church in the USA.

Poppy

Well, in my opinion, excluding gay priests is not a very Christian attitude. I thought Christ taught inclusion, not exclusion.

[ampoule]

Wow Sleepy.
First, a scripture that doesn't even use the word angel.

"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Colossians 1:16-17

The time of the their creation is not specified but there are scriptures (I don't have time to look for them right now) that lead many to believe that they were witnesses to God's creation...Job 38:4-7, "the sons of God shouted for joy" when God laid the foundations of the earth.

Angels are men. There is only one place in the Bible that might possibly be referring to two women as angels but that is very debatable. So all these beautiful figurines and paintings of blonde (and maybe even a redhead or two..lol) female angels are from the minds of all of us artists. Angels are messengers. They do God's bidding. In my exhaustive concordance the word angel appears over 300 times, from Genesis in the old testament to Revelations in the new testament.

Like Granny said, most Protestants are free to believe about angels the way they choose. My church does not put much importance in them, as far as the pecking order goes. It's a personal thing. They add a beauty and mystery which is what I like about the whole thing anyway...the mystery.
I personally have a hard time thinking loved ones are watching over us because we are told there will be no more tears in heaven and what loved one could look upon us without crying? If they're in heaven, I want them to be having a grand old time.
To me, angels are the ones who do good deeds for others and of course, some of those deeds are almost miraculous.

Saints. In my church we believe that all Christians are saints. We do not have any statues. We do not pray to any other human beings, living or dead, to save us or guide us. We love and honor people for their great mission and sacrifice whether Christian or not. Even here, it is individual thought.

And Sleepy, you really cracked me up when you mentioned how your boyfriend's meetings begin with "blablahow-are-you-did-you-have-any-nice-experience-lately". I'm still laughing with this one because all of our meetings begin with what we call Joys and Concerns. People are given an opportunity to share some of the good things that have happened in their lives and then to mention their concerns for loved ones, illnesses, themselves, world events, whatever. I suppose it is a lot of blabla but to me it can serve to center people, if it is done in a caring and honest way. It can also help us know where others are 'coming from', that the reason George is moody is because of______ or the reason Mable is a 'you know what' is because of_______.

Anyway.....I have no idea why I picked up on this thread this morning of all mornings.....it must be my own special guardian angel who is being a trickster and wants me to be late for school!! LOL

[papayahed]

Interesting question. Angels are mentioned in the bible so I guess that's pretty universal but what about saints? Do other denominations have a pantheon of saints like the Catholics?

[Virgil]

Ampoule, out of curiosity what denomination of Protestant are you?

[Niamh]

As far as i'm aware the belief in angels stretches across many other religions also, not just christian religions.
When the reformation began, and the protestant religions formed, they didnt get rid of Everything that represented the catholic church, and Saints play an important role in christianity. The Apostoles became saints and if Protestantism had decided to defy saints, they would have defied many of the followers of Jesus, and therefore much of the new testement.:)

[kilted exile]

I was raised CoS Presbyterian. If I remember correctly, it was taught there that saints were to be revered & respected but they held no sway over anything happening in the mortal world and that it was incorrect to carry symbols of them (eg I would never have considered wearing a St. Christophers when travelling etc)

[dzebra]

Paul started pretty much all his letters with something like "Paul, follower of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in ________ (fill in the blank, Rome, Corinth, Ephesus, the Church in Philippi, etc.)" These letters are written to the churches, which are made up of Christians. He further says that they are called to be holy. A saint is a holy person. Holy means sacred or set apart. Paul is writing these letters to churches, reminding the Christians that they are set apart by God (holy) to reject the ways of the world and follow the ways of God. Peter, in 1 Peter 2:5, tell Christians that they are a holy priesthood, which is along the same lines as what Paul is telling people.

Angels in the Bible have done things like guard the garden of Eden after Adam and Eve got kicked out, cared for Jesus in the wilderness (Matt 4:11), freed apostles from prison, sent messages from God to people, warned people of danger, opposed Satan, etc. As far as I can figure, they are beings who do the biddings of God. They are present in heaven, as seen in Revelation, and they are higher than humans, because in Hebrews 2, when it's talking about Jesus becoming human, it says he was "made a little lower than the angels." That makes me think that humans are lower than angels.

But neither saints nor angels should be worshiped. Deuteronomy 6:13 (echoed in Matt. 4:10 and Luke 4:8) say "worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

[Niamh]

We have nothing but saints in Ireland. Everywhere you turn you get greeted by a different saint. (not statues of anything like that but in place names.) nearly everywhere has its own special saint. Where i live is translated into the Church of St. Berach

[NikolaiI]

In my church (a Presbyterian Church) we teach about and honor at least some saints. I remember the pastor teaching children about both Saint Francis and Saint Benedict.

Saint Anthony was the father of monks, or something, am I correct? Anyway, the three saints I mentioned were all ascetics. Saint Anthony gave up his wealth to work as a low-class laborer when he was 18, living at the edge of the village; two years later he went out into the wilderness to become a full-fledged ascetic (praying to God) and stayed there for 20 years. When he came back, he healed many people because the light of God was so strong in him. Saint Benedict lived in a cave to pray for the people, and it's said he performed miracles.

Nowadays, however, a desire for asceticism is seen as mental illness, and quite possible a masked desire for death or suicide. The saints represent a turning away from worldly phenomena to turn to God. They call us to solitude, silence and prayer, if not asceticism.

[Mortis Anarchy]

Catholics have a lot of saints, but they, we don't worship them. The Saints are there to listen I suppose, we pray to them for help, but they don't replace God. Also, in the Book of Enoch, which isn't a part of the bible because it speaks of heretical things, it lists a whole lot of other angels than just the Bible. I found angels fascinating when I was younger and read a lot of different stuff. Not all of it was Catholic, I don't think...or at least it didn't seem Catholic...:)

[SleepyWitch]

And Sleepy, you really cracked me up when you mentioned how your boyfriend's meetings begin with "blablahow-are-you-did-you-have-any-nice-experience-lately". I'm still laughing with this one because all of our meetings begin with what we call Joys and Concerns. People are given an opportunity to share some of the good things that have happened in their lives and then to mention their concerns for loved ones, illnesses, themselves, world events, whatever. I suppose it is a lot of blabla but to me it can serve to center people, if it is done in a caring and honest way. It can also help us know where others are 'coming from', that the reason George is moody is because of______ or the reason Mable is a 'you know what' is because of_______.

heehee, yeah, I suppose it's a nice thing if it's done that way. but my boyfriend normally doesn't have any major problems or things to talk about, so he feels kinda pressured to make something up. I think that's nonsense, if there's nothing you want to talk about, you shouldn't be forced to make something up.

back on topic:

Also, in the Book of Enoch, which isn't a part of the bible because it speaks of heretical things, it lists a whole lot of other angels than just the Bible.
thanks Ana, I'll check it out.

[Niamh]

Catholics have a lot of saints, but they, we don't worship them. The Saints are there to listen I suppose, we pray to them for help, but they don't replace God. Also, in the Book of Enoch, which isn't a part of the bible because it speaks of heretical things, it lists a whole lot of other angels than just the Bible. I found angels fascinating when I was younger and read a lot of different stuff. Not all of it was Catholic, I don't think...or at least it didn't seem Catholic...:)

Angelology is fasinating!