How important are your beliefs?

[livelaughlove]

Now, I know I'm taking a risk here by bringing up religion, but I honestly don't want this to be a religious debate. All I'm asking is, how far would you go?

I recently got "involved" with a boy who is a Christian. I am not. I am not against his religion at all, and despite the attraction we both felt towards each other, this fact prevents us from becoming more than just friends. It's been difficult but now I am thankful that we are friends because he is a great one. But... another girl from work asked him out and he said no because she is not Christian - she is Mormon. She has been pretty upset too, much like I was at first.

He has told me that in the Bible it says "do not be yoked to unbelievers" - aka marriage, and that it is his personal choice not to even date unbelievers. I guess I can't be too great of a judge since I am not religious at all, but this seems a bit over the top - I have plenty of friends who are Christian who are completely fine with dating non Christians.

What do you think? I respect that he has made this decision, I'm just wondering what other people think about it?

[NikolaiI]

I think he is totally in the wrong!

I have a friend which I unfortunately got into a fight about this (not that that really matters- we're great friends).

He's the exact same way; he doesn't date non-Christians (though I consider Mormons Christians in every sense; and especially knowing the amazing goodness in some Mormon friends I had, I'd say your friend was totally missing the picture on that one)- girls at his work who are nice enough, but he doesn't date them because of the religion.

The only thing is- I know I shouldn't say it's wrong, it's just that it sits so unwell with me. I think it's incorrect to label people Christian or non. Or inaccurate. Let's just say we're all entities. Laff.

Why do I think it's wrong? It's hard to say. I could just say intuition- if I were my friend (or yours) and I wanted to change my mind about this; I'd say to myself, "Okay, let's just forget what we were thinking about these labels, and just see if my soul and her soul are compatible."

I think one of the strongest reasons that you wouldn't want to be yoked to a non-believer (Lord, doesn't that sound awful?),- and this is reasonably valid- is just that you think it won't work because of this. And all I can say is I think that's incorrect. If two people like each other, love each other, love each others' souls, then religion should butt out of it. Furthermore, religion isn't even about words.

-

That was all I had to say, but lastly; as well as people's souls are concerned, a question for me would be are they enlightened? I suppose the Christian belief is that we cannot be enlightened, but as for me I've seen evidence of enlightenment (at least by some writers) and so that's something I'd look for. I do believe people can be enlightened (or awake)...

Sorry for such a long answer.

[livelaughlove]

You bring up some great points, Nikolai. Religion is just that - religion. I feel that you can't say someone isn't good enough for you just because they don't believe the same thing you do.

To be more optimistic, though - I do know of a couple who are polar opposites when it comes to religion but they are happily married and seem to get along great. The husband attends church every week; he's not the most pious man I've ever met but I know he has faith. The wife stays at home when he goes to church. They don't have children, which probably makes things a tad easier but it still stands - they are married. What of this? They are two great people who complement each other.

Thanks for your reply Nikolai. I understand my friend's (let's just call him J shall we) commitment and I truly respect that, but I think he's missing out on a lot by immediately turning away from non-Christians. Me and him still hang out sometimes as friends but again, where do you draw the line? We know each other pretty well now but this has just been a huge issue between us - and how is it that he can accept me as a friend but not anything more? I don't know, that just doesn't seem to quite make sense in my mind. And frankly, I think it's a bit early for me to even think about marriage (I'm not even out of high school and he isn't either!!) Yes, everyone has fantasies about getting married and having a wonderful spouse, etc. etc. but in all truth, what?! Marriage so far down the road that it shouldn't even be considered for right now.... Anyway, I apologize for my little schpiel (is that how you spell that? lol) but this is how I feel and I just hope people don't think I'm crazy for thinking this way!

[miss tenderness]

well , if it's a serious relationship I think religion

should be taken into consideration , because it

may have an effect on their relationship , you know.

It's a personal matter , however!

[NikolaiI]

If the eyes are the window to the soul, and the soul is the window to religion, then the eyes are the window to a person's soul and religion. Thus, words have no say in the matter. I think your friend (and mine) are missing out. But like Miss Tenderness said, it's a personal matter. But because you brought it up, I didn't mind saying I agree with you.

[Pensive]

You bring up some great points, Nikolai. Religion is just that - religion. I feel that you can't say someone isn't good enough for you just because they don't believe the same thing you do.

It's not about the other person not being good enough for you when you are religious and don't want to get into a relationship with a non-believer. I think it has got to do more with the difference in the set of beliefs. When two people belong to two different set of beliefs, in most of the cases, their life-styles differ, their ways of clothing/talking/walking/eating and what-not differs. For example, most Muslims believe that drinking alcohol is not allowed. They believe clothes shouldn't be very revealing. They can't eat pig-meat. When you are friends, you don't in most of the cases, live together. And even if you do, you don't have children. And yes, then there comes the upbringing of children (if you plan to have any). Now comes the question whether you can compromise over here, which I believe is quite difficult. If you can compromise, then well and good otherwise it's all good for nothing. And many people really care for whom they choose as a partner. Everyone doesn't like changing them like a cloth everyday, so they think it's better rather to be cautious at first than to face a broken marriage/relationship.

Other than this, in many religions, marriage with people from other religions is forbidden. Now comes the question, religious people many times do things which go against religion, then why not this? Well, here I think they look at what's more sinful and what is not as sinful.....and marriage with non-believers is regarded as quite a big sin in I think many religions (I am sure it's so in Islam, for women and men are also allowed to marry women belonging to Abrahimic religions)

[livelaughlove]

Thanks Pensive. Your reply is quite insightful. I said "not good enough" because that's what I feel like is implied by rejection - though sometimes, I guess, it isn't (it just feels that way!!). Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Looks like I just need to get over it, huh? :-P

[Pensive]

If two people like each other, love each other, love each others' souls, then religion should butt out of it.

What's religion for? Why do people belong to religion? To follow it. To follow it in every walk of life (at least try to) from how to brush teeth to what they consider more important things. Now throwing off what we want to from a Holy religious book and accepting what we can is probably not the right thing....one associates to a religion when he follows it. Probably saying you are a Christian doesn't make you so but your actions and intentions do....and for that you have to base your actions according to the religious book of yours, Bible.

--

livelaughlove and Nikolai, I can understand how bad you must be feeling about it, but I think the best thing would be to be open about your friends (I know it's easy to say than having it done but still it's worth a try).

[bazarov]

It's better to end it before it has even started. What if it becomes serious? They want to marry or have children?
For example: Christian and Muslim.
Will they marry like Christians or Muslims? She can't marry him in church if she is not a Christian. Child is born in to this world...will that child be named like John or Paul or it will be named Muhamed or Suleyman? How it will be raised? Like Christian or like u Muslim?

[NikolaiI]

No, I read Pensive's reply and I still think it's wrong. -Not what she said, but rejecting someone as a lover/spouse whom you'd have as a friend. I may not be able to voice it correctly, but I feel it's not right.

Pensive, everything you wrote doesn't sit right with me. It doesn't sit right to have all these rules, and it all seems so arbitrary; but then, we simply have very different faiths. I have absolute faith in people, and like I say I think everyone can become enlightened. I also believe you can do this with different religions- I don't have experience or knowledge of them all, however. I don't know as much about Islam as I do Christianity; but I am sorry to say I find Enlightenment in Christianity somewhat rare. It's not a big deal, it's something that can change, mind you. Anyway the reason for this I think is that we get all confused and wrapped up in artificial realities. All these words and terms and everything- they should all be set aside, in religion. When you pray to God, don't you want stillness of mind? Stillness of mind doesn't come if we have competing concepts fighting over each other in our mind. One of the biggest monsters we have is the concept of ego or self; as if the self is a solid thing which is unchanging, therefore having permanent properties. When I say it's in accurate to call people Christians, I don't mean "Saying you're a Christian doesn't make you one." I mean, it's simply inaccurate to call anyone anything. Good, bad, smart, stupid, loser, brilliant; all of these are inaccurate. It's kind of intriguing that western philosophy has come to understand this truth a long time ago, this understanding which has been a part of Eastern wisdom for millenia, yet it's not commonly accepted in Western thinking. People fight to the death over their words and egos.

I wasn't talking about being cautious or not. I think it's vitally important to happiness. I just think religion should be something that we can learn and grow about. Er- that's not saying it- but how does it make sense to say that your religion is right, and therefore you'll not be with a Muslim? Or a Hindu? This is mindboggling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I met someone who I thought was beautiful and had a beautiful soul, I wouldn't care what religion brought them to this enlightenment! What is done in love is beyond good and evil! But these are all just words! Yes, we can come to enlightenment through studying metaphysics, perhaps; but as Whitman said; The base of all metaphysics is the attraction of body to body, and friend to friend! That's brilliant, in my mind.

[amalia1985]

I agree with Nicolail with all my heart. I do believe in God, but I don't let any kind of beliefs, whether they are religious, political,social, control my life. My life is my own and I must live it the way I see suitable, not according to the ideas that others would be willing to force on me.
After all, God is supposed to be love and understanding, and that's the God I believe in. Nicolail stated the issue excellent!!!!

[papayahed]

I agree with Nicolail with all my heart. I do believe in God, but I don't let any kind of beliefs, whether they are religious, political,social, control my life. My life is my own and I must live it the way I see suitable, not according to the ideas that others would be willing to force on me.
After all, God is supposed to be love and understanding, and that's the God I believe in. Nicolail stated the issue excellent!!!!

So if you met someone with the complete opposite beliefs you would throw yours out the window? What if you met a man that believed women were property and should be treated as such?


You have nothing that you feel strongly about?

OK, I know a guy that has a "thing" for hairy women. He only dates women that will grow their hair. That's legs, armpits, everything...Let's say you "liked" this guy, maybe even love. Would you be able to never shave?

[livelaughlove]

I think it's more a matter of compromise - getting along while still retaining your own beliefs - rather than letting one partner's beliefs control the relationship and letting the other go out the window.

[Pensive]

No, I read Pensive's reply and I still think it's wrong.

First of all, I didn't say that under all conditions, marrying someone (or having a relationship) out of religion is totally wrong for everyone! Don't put words into my mouth (or writing) that I never uttered. In fact, I wrote if one can compromise, it's well and good. If you go and read my post again.

And by the way, according to your philosophy mentioned later, how can you say what I write is wrong? According to you, who are we to judge if other people's beliefs are right or wrong. In such a case, you can't tell me I am wrong!


-Not what she said, but rejecting someone as a lover/spouse whom you'd have as a friend. I may not be able to voice it correctly, but I feel it's not right.

Both are different sort of relations. And all your friends can't be your spouses/partners (oh well actually, even that can be, for those who believe it's right)


Pensive, everything you wrote doesn't sit right with me. It doesn't sit right to have all these rules, and it all seems so arbitrary; but then, we simply have very different faiths. I have absolute faith in people, and like I say I think everyone can become enlightened.

Now when did I say everyone can't become enlightened? As for rules, probably what doesn't matter to you matters to other people. That's what I have been trying to say all the time. Papayahed has given a good example of it. Maybe if you can compromise with something, the other person can't? Isn't it better to already not think of something which would result in a broken relationship later?


I wasn't talking about being cautious or not. I think it's vitally important to happiness. I just think religion should be something that we can learn and grow about. Er- that's not saying it- but how does it make sense to say that your religion is right, and therefore you'll not be with a Muslim? Or a Hindu? This is mindboggling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Personally, I believe that one should be open towards others and it's good manners not to insult other people's beliefs but really, just think about it, don't you have these beliefs because you feel they are just right? Why do you have some beliefs? Because you think they fit better than any other? Is there any other reason for that?


If I met someone who I thought was beautiful and had a beautiful soul, I wouldn't care what religion brought them to this enlightenment!

Good for you. I hope this would work for you. In fact, mostly we find people having beautiful souls those with which our beliefs match, in some way or another, but I don't know how it's like in your case...it can be opposite attracts too...


What is done in love is beyond good and evil! But these are all just words!

Now what should I say about it? As I am here for discussion, so probably the unromantic me would say what she wants to. I don't agree with what's done in love is beyond good and evil. In fact, there are much more practical things one has to look upon. Like many people have mentioned before, I did too earlier, there is possibility of having children too. And when ones beliefs differ a lot, it can often result in mayhem and children are the ones most effected. Now you got mad by love and got married but didn't think of the later consequences which I believe is not right. BUT if you can manage it well, then it's good but it's just not easy to manage it...

I am sorry for such a long reply, this I could have shortened in a few sentences (but can't help my talking habits!) like this:

All I want to say is that we should be open towards those religious people who don't want to get in a physical relationship with a friend because of the difference in their beliefs, rather than just being mad on them.

[amalia1985]

So if you met someone with the complete opposite beliefs you would throw yours out the window? What if you met a man that believed women were property and should be treated as such?


You have nothing that you feel strongly about?

OK, I know a guy that has a "thing" for hairy women. He only dates women that will grow their hair. That's legs, armpits, everything...Let's say you "liked" this guy, maybe even love. Would you be able to never shave?

No, I have nothing I feel strongly about! Except my belief in LOVE and FREEDOM, that's what I feel strongly about!

[papayahed]

No, I have nothing I feel strongly about! Except my belief in LOVE and FREEDOM, that's what I feel strongly about!


OK, what about the other two questions?



What if you met a man that believed women were property and should be treated as such?

You love this this guy but isn't he taking away your freedom?


OK, I know a guy that has a "thing" for hairy women. He only dates women that will grow their hair. That's legs, armpits, everything...Let's say you "liked" this guy, maybe even love. Would you be able to never shave?

[amalia1985]

I think I am a woman that retains her sanity, and knows how to distinguish between two different things. The example you are referring to simply verifies what I told you. Did you read my post carefully? I put Freedom above Love, so to reply to your question, no, I would never have an affair with a tyrann. As for the hairy thing, well, what's the harm in hair, if there's true love?

Seriously, the issue started out as an example for religion, and I said that I believe in God, but I am not a fanatical. I don't think I need to justify myself for my beliefs, and in any case, I refuse to do so.I simply stated my opinion, as we all do, and that's it. I'm not the kind of person that would persuade the others to accept it or agree with it, only respect it, as I do. If I try to force my ideas to others, I would not be a true follower of Freedom, would I? We cannot always agree, can we?That's what healthy discussion exists for.

[papayahed]

I don't really care what anybody believes, but I think it's a mistake to think beliefs, religious or otherwise, can be put to the side for love. That may work in a romantic sense but day to day living is something different.

[kilted exile]

I'm with Papaya on this one. The guy is completely within his rights to base his decisions on who he will or not date from their religious background - Hell a lot of people base their decisions on that subject on a lot worse things.

There are some things which we believe & hold to be important to being a part of what we are. As an example, I dont believe I would date (and certainly not marry) an overtly religious person - there are too many factors in a relationship which would cause arguments because of this, and I certainly would never expect someone to compromise her beliefs for me, just like I would expect never to have to compromise mine for her.

[NikolaiI]

Good for you. I hope this would work for you. In fact, mostly we find people having beautiful souls those with which our beliefs match, in some way or another, but I don't know how it's like in your case...it can be opposite attracts too...

Yes; matched exactly. More important to me there is ontology than theology; however, these things cannot be expressed in words. Like I said, connections are cosmic and can't be expressed in words; each of us is not just one word or another; we're body and soul and mind; when these things connect in a way that's beyond words and conceptions, then religion isn't important. Rather; it's not so much that we are not doing with religion, but it's the full realization of religion in the truest sense. And it can be between any people.

I know it's perspective- for me, it doesn't make sense to call myself a Christian. Do I have a Christian head, a Christian hand, etc., etc.? I guess this makes sense for others but not for me. A hand is a hand. A heart is a heart. I wouldn't think that it would cause problems in a relationship if someone considered themselves a Muslim, or a Taoist, or a Confucianist. If we didn't connect- then that's something else. In fact this whole issue is very complicated because there's two theatres of conflict going around; one is the original question, and the second is the question of what are the exact conditions or factors of the situation? And the second question is broad and ranging.

Kilted is right; it's within their rights. All I'm saying is that it might make them sad; or, that they're missing out on happiness. The OP (livelaughlove) is talking about a specific, personal instance, and I related because my best friend is going through this now.

[Pensive]

Yes; matched exactly. More important to me there is ontology than theology; however, these things cannot be expressed in words. Like I said, connections are cosmic and can't be expressed in words; each of us is not just one word or another; we're body and soul and mind; when these things connect in a way that's beyond words and conceptions, then religion isn't important. Rather; it's not so much that we are not doing with religion, but it's the full realization of religion in the truest sense. And it can be between any people.

Okay, then again according to your philosophy, a person can get connected to his religious beliefs in ways he can't express in words? A person has too much love for his beliefs that he puts them above love for anything else? Then how can you say a person is wrong to put religious beliefs above anything else?


I know it's perspective- for me, it doesn't make sense to call myself a Christian. Do I have a Christian head, a Christian hand, etc., etc.?

Well, probably you are not connected to your beliefs very well? In a way that can't be expressed in words?


I guess this makes sense for others but not for me. A hand is a hand. A heart is a heart. I wouldn't think that it would cause problems in a relationship if someone considered themselves a Muslim, or a Taoist, or a Confucianist. If we didn't connect- then that's something else. In fact this whole issue is very complicated because there's two theatres of conflict going around; one is the original question, and the second is the question of what are the exact conditions or factors of the situation? And the second question is broad and ranging.

You don't connect when your views differ in most of the cases. What's the main thing here? Beliefs. But if you can connect despite of that, that's good as I have been saying it for the past three posts.


Kilted is right; it's within their rights.

Yes, he is, I believe. Though according to what you said earlier, who are we to say what's right or wrong? :p


All I'm saying is that it might make them sad; or, that they're missing out on happiness. The OP (livelaughlove) is talking about a specific, personal instance, and I related because my best friend is going through this now.

As I mentioned before, I am sorry for livelaughlove and your friend but calling those people unfair or thinking they were totally wrong on having done that was probably not the best thing to do. Shouldn't we be more understanding? And you wrote:


I think he is totally in the wrong!

[NikolaiI]

Okay, then again according to your philosophy, a person can get connected to his religious beliefs in ways he can't express in words? A person has too much love for his beliefs that he puts them above love for anything else? Then how can you say a person is wrong to put religious beliefs above anything else?

No, no, this is just a misunderstanding. I am talking about one's connections to other people- this is transcendent of language. Mystical feeling cannot be expressed in words; by its nature it's transcendent of language. That's why when we feel something for someone, so often we can't express it in words. That's why, as Baki said, we have music and other art to express these things.


Well, probably you are not connected to your beliefs very well? In a way that can't be expressed in words?

No, I was serious and I meant what I said. A heart is a heart; a hand is a hand. I'm sorry I just get confused with anything else.


You don't connect when your views differ in most of the cases. What's the main thing here? Beliefs. But if you can connect despite of that, that's good as I have been saying it for the past three posts.

Yes, I know you've said that. It's good! But the thing is, I don't think words say it. I'm trying to say that connections to people are transcendent of language, that's all. I also think religious feeling is transcendent of language. What comes from stillness is clear and true, as opposed to what comes from confusion. As Henri Nouwen said, "The word the comes from silence and returns to silence after."

[kilted exile]

This is the problem with trying to be philosophical: it doesnt deal in a lot of cases with the real world.

Whether you see yourself as a member of any religion is unimportant (so for that matter is whether you believe yourself to have any beliefs) The other person obviously does see themself as being a member of a specific religion and does have beliefs they strongly hold, for them they are important to making up them whether you agree or not is unimportant if the person is your friend you accept that they believe that way

[amalia1985]

I don't really care what anybody believes, but I think it's a mistake to think beliefs, religious or otherwise, can be put to the side for love. That may work in a romantic sense but day to day living is something different.


Oh, you certainly got me there! "Romantic" is my middle name...That's the way I've been leading my life for some years now, and thank God, it has worked out in a wonderful way!!!

[Pensive]

No, no, this is just a misunderstanding. I am talking about one's connections to other people- this is transcendent of language. Mystical feeling cannot be expressed in words; by its nature it's transcendent of language. That's why when we feel something for someone, so often we can't express it in words. That's why, as Baki said, we have music and other art to express these things.

Now, I am mentioning one's connection to his faith. Don't you think it can be strong enough? Sufiism can be an example of that. If one can fall in love with other people then why not for a specific path? People can get obsessed about their faith. They can come to love it. Can't they?


I don't know that it's right to say we even have beliefs. I mean as long as we are getting all philosophical.

I don't think I possess anything. Not saying I don't have thoughts; it's just I don't actually have them.

I don't know what I did yesterday. I don't know what I ate early in the morning. Was it a cookie or was it a piece of meat? Ummm....I think it was a cookie. See, they all are telling me it was a cookie but how do I know it was a cookie? Are they really telling me it's a cookie? Perhaps I am hearing voices. How can I be so sure? Now, what's surety!

Now that can be a philosophical way to put things...

[Chava]

I guess it's a matter of paradigm, i'm inclined to agree that restricting one's company for religious reasons is narrowminded, but I can empathise with the individual, and would never intrude on someone's rights regarding his choise.
But again, from my point of view, related to MY paradigm, i find it a shame.

[AimusSage]

Over dinner, I realized that potatoes are great with some vegetables, but don't mix so well with others. However, my friend, while agreeing with me on the thought, did not agree with me on the details. We discussed the idea, and came up with two options. We could avoid the potatoes or vegetables all together, eating either a type of vegetable or potatoes, or we could mix and match until we found a certain number of combinations we were both comfortable with. We went with the second option.

[andave_ya]

Ouch. It does say in the Bible not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers, but (and I say this as a traditional Christian who would follow that) it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the unbeliever is worth it. What right does anyone, Christian or otherwise, have to say that a person is not worth loving?

It's more as security for the Christian. It's just easier to fall away from your faith when there isn't someone to back you up in it.

[manolia]

From what i've read so far I too agree with papaya. Then again i was never romantic ;)
Experience has taught me that in a relationship man and woman must be compatible in order for the said relationship to last. I am not a religious person, quite on the contrary, so i couldn't be with a religious guy. I tried in the past once but the outcome was a catastrophy :lol: . I can be very headstrong and oppinionated :rolleyes: so instead of avoiding the subject i did the opposite :D
Same goes with politics and how the person next to me views the world around him ;) This says a lot about his character so in my eyes this is very important. I know, i know this narrows one's choices for a love partner ;)

[NikolaiI]

Now, I am mentioning one's connection to his faith. Don't you think it can be strong enough? Sufiism can be an example of that. If one can fall in love with other people then why not for a specific path? People can get obsessed about their faith. They can come to love it. Can't they?

I guess I'm just differentiating between scholarly study of religious texts and what someone understands in their heart. There's a story in Vajrayana Buddhism where a monk studies and writes commentaries on different texts; and he's visited three times by Varjayogini, the female Buddha-god of wisdom, and each time she asks him something; to eat with her, do a practice with her, but she comes as a low-caste woman and he refuses each time. Each time he learns who she was, and changes his goals, trying for different things. After the third time he meditates and fasts in graveyards for some days, and entreats her to come to him. She does, and tells him if he had practiced with her before, she would have bestowed supreme enlightenment on him, but since he refused her three times, she predicts he will not attain it in this lifetime. However, he goes on to become a great teacher, channeling her wisdom through him. They say when he spoke flowers would even fall from the sky. So in the end he did attain something more than just book-learning, although he'd have to wait until after death to attain buddha-hood. The story's called the Temptress and the Monk. I mention it because I see a difference between an intellectual connection which would tell us different rules, and a spiritual connection in which we are not oppressed by rules but live life well, and do acts of goodness because of our spontaneous good will. Religious or spiritual feeling; anything that can do something for the heart, cannot be expressed exactly in words.

At what point exactly do you ask someone if they're a Christian, anyway? I'm not saying not to be careful with whom you are with, or whom you want to date or be with; but I think if you fall for someone, then you should...at least consider what I say. Maybe you have something to learn from them, too...

I guess, I don't see the belief in God or the Bible to mean belief in God or the Bible. I know I'm getting off into nonsense here, but really. An atheist can be Christian and vice-versa, in my world, if for no other reason than it's too confusing to call a person either. So therefore if you're interested in someone, date them.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is if I fell for someone and then later learned they were a different religion, I would just try to understand them. What do they believe? In words? In feeling?


I don't know what I did yesterday. I don't know what I ate early in the morning. Was it a cookie or was it a piece of meat? Ummm....I think it was a cookie. See, they all are telling me it was a cookie but how do I know it was a cookie? Are they really telling me it's a cookie? Perhaps I am hearing voices. How can I be so sure? Now, what's surety!

Now that can be a philosophical way to put things...

I don't know! :)