My thoughts on free will

[andrew23]

*note. we all have different definitions of "free will". you must adopt mine first for you to correctly understand this post. you can understand my definition of it by finding it in Litnet. this is puzzle, it's up to you to solve it. after adopting my definition of it, then it's time for you to enjoy the pizza..otherwise you'll end up bragging an arguement and end up with an empty stomach..

I have been thinking about this for many weeks now. It's about free will. I'm wondering about whether we really have free will or not. This has kept my mind busy for quite some time now. Those sleepless nights were really pain in the ***. :lol:

Anyway, needless to say (or is it..), I have come up with this question as a result of thinking about the story of the bible (or Koran if you're muslim). They say a God created the world, man, and all things. And then, we are left with a duty to follow God's commandments.

All right, are you still with me fellas?

So, in the beginning was the creation (by the way, this is the bible's perspective). And then God created the two most famous celebrities in the history of mankind, Adam and Eve. But Adam and Eve were not like the modern celebrities. Adam wasn't like Brad Pitt who wears a black tuxedo. And Eve wasn't like Buffy the Vampire Slayer killing dreadful creatures in a hot fashion way. They were somehow naive and for some reason (God's reason), they don't even know that they are naked.

So, after probably wandering around for quite some time now. One of them or both of them (I forgot the story) ate a magical apple (courtesy of that cute little wicked snake) in the Garden of Eden, which God has forbidden by the way. The apple is like a magical fruit and it gives you some great wisdom or something like that. And so, after eating it, they became conscious that they were naked. And then, God found out about this violation. And the rest was history..

But my point is, God created laws, and we humans must abide them. The bible says God has given us free will and we must will to choose the good side.

Still there? I must remind you, we're still in the face of bible story..

And so God created many laws including..
-not to eat the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden (that was applicable only to the Adam and Eve)
-the four fundamental forces to somehow bring balance to the universe so that humans may live (wasn't it obvious. adam and eve needed this for the universe to be stable, and so that they can roam around in the plains)
-the famous ten commandments
-other commandments...
-and the other unmentioned ones..

But perhaps the hollywood part in the bible is when God talked about this heaven and hell ending place. They say if you have been bad in this life, you will go to hell. But on the other hand, if you were good, you would go to heaven. Heaven and hell is like the ultimate place. It doesn't matter what the brand of your shoes are. What matters is whether you go to heaven or hell. Cause they say it's an eternal place. And come to think of it, our life on earth doesn't even come close to the time in an eternal dimension. It's not even a point in the eternal scale..

Let's cut that out for a moment..

After many years, many people were born, and at one of point of time I was born too..

My relatives and parents call me Andrew. I was a Catholic, my parents told to me go to church so that I would not go to hell.

So, did God really gave me free will in my life to choose between heaven or eternal damnation?

Free will, ofcourse as it names suggests, is a free will unaffected by any force. If I want to get that book in my bag, they say it's free will, cause I acted according to my will.

My guess is that "free will" doesn't exist. "Free will" is an illogical term. It's contradicting itself. There is never a free will. Everything that we do is affected by the forces around us. Why was I catholic? It's because my environment is infested by Catholic people. Why was my name Andrew? Because somehow, my grandmother knows the letter A,N,D,R,E,W, and have come up with it by accident. It's like goverened by probabilities. It is more likely that my name was Andrew then Muhammad Ali or something. Because my environment affects me, it molds me. There's a lot of factors in here. Why my skin in dark, it's because of the setting of my country. Why does someone steal? Because there's scarcity in money and options of having it.

So, we don't really use free will in doing something. It's just it's meant to happen as a result of forces and factors. Why am I typing this? It turns out that I have a pc and an internet. Why do I have a pc? It turns out that I have just the right money to buy one.

Everything we do and think, is just an outcome of factors and forces. So, a person in a wicked community is more likely to be bad and go to hell. And someone in a good community is more likely to be good and go to heaven. Many things affects us a person. The people around us, the things around us, they all affect us. And those affections is what makes us who we are. It's never free will. We never had free will from the start.

Do you have free will to reply at this thread? No. It just turns out that you are a regular poster in this site. So you are more likely to reply in this thread than my lazy classmate.

Factors and forces determines everything..including what you will do and what you will think..

Why am doing this? Why am I writing this? The factors are my pc, my environment, the people I talk to, the tv, and etc...

It seems to me that God created us in an unfair way. What we look like, what we like to think, and what we will do are all different. We are all unequal and different.

To sum it all...

It's like God created snails and cheetahs. And whoever runs faster will go to heaven. Is that fair?

And what do christians do. They provide people with consolation by saying you have "free will". They say "turn back from the dark side!" Where in fact we don't really have free will, and it's all about factors and forces affecting us from all directions. Telling someone that they have free will is like telling them that a snail and a cheetah has the same speed.

That's the end of the story............................................. .......

So, do you think there's free will? Is the bible really true as what it claims to be?

I do not say what I am saying is true, I just want to be honest and tell people what I am thinking right now. I am unlike those ignorant people. I accept criticisms, I am open to all ideas, I like correct my mistakes. Cause all I want is mutual relationship to all. I want us to all help each other..

Lastly, I have been thinking about hell for a long time. Imagine hell. It's eternal pain. Isn't that horrible?! I mean, we're talking about eternal here. It's forever! Isn't that too evil. I wonder why did God ever thought about this punishment. I have no hate against God. And infact I am willing to whole heartily accept God with enough factors/forces/and reasons.

It's just that, if I were God, I would have not employed this hell and punish the innocent souls of men..for they were also once human like us, they do have feelings, and they do feel pain. It just turns out that harsh factors and forces have molded them into bad ones.

And if hell was true, I'd willing to sacrifice my soul for a ten times more painful hell, for the good of all those innocent souls..

To sum all of my words in this post,

it's "I love you..."

[B-Mental]

You have free will...to believe or not to believe....to accept or reject...to abide or rebel...to stay or go? You have the free will to accept pain or deny it. I think that the concept of Heaven and Hell is man made, and therefore not actually what an afterlife will be like.

[andrew23]

*note I haven't clarified "free will" yet in this post. find a certain thread in religious discussions and you'll find out my real idea about "free will". this post is more of way of wasting time by saying funny things. so then, find it if you want to solve the puzzle.

Things are getting quite vague here, so then I feel like having the duty to clarify things and words around here.

It seems that we all have different definitions of free will, so let's clarify things up..

My first post, views free will as the ability to desire anything unaffected by any force. But clearly, every cause has an effect, which was my point earlier.

It also seems to me that B-mental's view of free will, is the ability to freely desire. Like for example, the ability to believe or not, to accept or reject. Yes, we can freely choose what we desire. We can choose this and we can choose that. If that's your view of free will (and I'm sure many people also has that view), that's totally correct, nothing is wrong with that.

It just turns out that we have different definition of things. So to make things easier, I'll adopt your view of free will, which is the more conventional one.

Since I had already adopted your view of free will, then I can say now that we have free will right? We can believe this and that, accept or reject..ok let's continue..

My really point from the start is this..

Yes, we have free will. But this free will is affected by factors and forces. We are compelled to follow certain universal laws and forces. For example, I have the free will to choose between eating dinner with rice or without rice. Since I am a filipino, it is more likely that I will eat dinner with rice. My will and my action to eat dinner with rice was affected by fact that I am a filipino.

Another example. Ok, I have free will, I can think of this and think of that. Alright, let's say I want to think about foods. Yes, I have free will to think about a japanese sushi or a filipino isaw. But it's more likely that I'll be thinking about a filipino isaw since I am a filipino. My will to think about a filipino isaw was caused by certain factors and forces.

So, our wills and actions are determined by numerous factors and forces. What we will think and what we will do are determined by numerous factors and forces. What shapes the world is simply just numerous factors and forces.

Yes, God may have given us the free will (if ever god did exist), but what is free will if actions are shaped simply by factors and forces?

We may have the free will choose to what we want, including to choose between good or evil, but our actions in choosing and what we are going to do are shaped simply by factors and forces.

So in the end, free will is useless. Cause ultimately, our actions are only shaped by factors and forces. So what if I have the ability and the prvilege to freely choose between good or evil? Where in the end, my actions are only going to be determined by certain factors and forces?

God may have tried to give us a saving factor (christ, the bible, and all the holy stuffs), but I suppose God knew that there are some people who are more likely to ignore the bible. God must have knew about all of this.

In this world we live in, were it's hard to know the truth for certain, there's a very big probability that many people wouldn't embrace the bible story. And God knew all about this I suppose, ofcourse he is a God...

Then I can safely say, that God destined some people to be doomed in hell?

However, for you the open-mined ones...
there is an alternative...

God didn't destined anyone to be doomed in hell, no one can be blamed for all the misery that we are suffering, for all this are simply caused by certain universal laws and factors. Why? Cause there was never a God and there was never a hell...

Poor people were meant to be poor people. Rich people were meant to be rich people. As Dark Vader says "It is your destiny."

Order are only found in small spaces between Chaos..

We have come to this very precious moment as a result of natural selection and continous evolution. Surely, those who are more adapted in the present environment are more likely to live. The weak shall be weaker and the strong shall be stronger. Ofcourse, some weaklings may become strong too if they manage to adapt.

I think many people feels like they don't have a purpose on earth. So in turn, they try to find one (example is Christianity). What they try to do is to adapt to this sad world, by filling their purpose in life with all those fancies.

But there are many roads in adapting in this sad world..

Some have walked on the magical path, but some have walked on the less travelled path..

If we can only understand the real meaning of life (some says the meaning of life is to follow God), if we can only realize how precious we are, if we could only know the greatness in the triumph of life, we shall realize how lucky we are that we are in front of this computer..

At some point in your life maybe...just maybe you'll realize that an ACCIDENT is more meaningful than something PLANNED..

*I told you it was funny. kinda sarcastic and dramatic too actually..

[B-Mental]

I chose the word I chose for a reason...it is your free will to choose this...regardless of what outside influences teach...it is free, but it comes with ramifications. To travel down any path one must choose...that is free will...each path has its own dangers.

and once again I say that just because you don't believe you have free will...doesn't mean that you don't. You must train yourself to excercise your free will...you still have not proven anything to me that free will does not exist. I suggest you give me exact examples why there is no free will, and support your hypothesis

[andrew23]

I already said that there is free will. Try to read between the lines. I guess you didn't get my point..



Yes, we have free will. But this free will is affected by factors and forces. We are compelled to follow certain universal laws and forces. For example, I have the free will to choose between eating dinner with rice or without rice. Since I am a filipino, it is more likely that I will eat dinner with rice. My will and my action to eat dinner with rice was affected by fact that I am a filipino.




See? I said there is free will.

[B-Mental]

I am through with your logic, it is faulty... your example is silly and wrong.

[andrew23]

Try to understand this.

In my first post I said that there is no free will.

Why?

Because we have different definitions of free will. In my first post, my definition of free will is the ability to do or think something unaffected by any forces. While you, your definition of free will is the ability to do or think something affected by various forces.

So then, as a solution to this conflict, I have adopted your perspective of free will, which I clarified in my 2nd post.

And then, after declaring that I have already adapted your definition of free will, I said it is now safe to say that there is free will.

So now, we both agree that there's free will. And there's nothing wrong about that..

But then on post #4..

For some reason, you are talking as if I said there's no free will, where in fact I have already said there is!

On post#5..

I said again that I've already said "THERE IS FREE WILL."

Clearly, that's very crystal clear. I even showed you a quote which proves that I have already said it in post#5

And for some funny reason on post #6

You said you are through with my logic and it is faulty. What is faulty in my statements? And what makes them faulty?

You also said my examples are silly and wrong. What makes them wrong?

It seems that you have not still understand that I have already said there's free will. And moreover, you engaged in Ad hominem, which is harshly an informal fallacy in rules of LOGIC.

So, are you already through with my logic? You can't even understand that I have already said there is free will. It's so simple. It's like I said "I'm a boy", but you understand of it as "I'm a girl".
Why can't you understand it? Are you that dumb? Clearly, you are not. You are intelligent enough to understand it. And you are intelligent enough to not to engage in Ad hominem.

But if you are really through with my logic, then farewell my friend. Or if you are still man enough to face your mistakes, then face this dreadful thread hehehe..

[Rockin462]

You are trying to bunch too many things up. And your logic is silly as stated by B-Mental.
You have freewill. You chose, your choice, your will.

[Pendragon]

Hi Andrew.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, but bear with me.

First, forget the apple. No where is this fruit that was forbidden called anything but "fruit".

Second: Punishments fit the crimes commited. Note the curses God places upon the ones who have fallen. This may or may not help.

Third: Of course there was free will, Eve was tempted, not forced. She used the word "beguiled" which means "tricked". Choice was made, and note that Adam blames God: Genesis 3:
[12] And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Kind of "I was perfectly happy by myself and never disobeyed, but you said, 'Oh, he's lonely! Make him a woman!' Did I ask for one? Now look at this mess!"

God Bless

Pen

[Logos]

General Mod Note to All: Please stick to discussing the topic and not each other (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410) :)

[andrew23]

Hi Pendragon, i'm hoping this will be my last post relevant to religious matters.

First: apple, banana, or orange. it doesn't matter what was it called.

Second: punishments doesn't fit the crimes commited. 1 isn't equal to 1000. just as stealing money in 5 seconds isn't equal to eternal suffering.

Third: I am already aware that I haven't clarified clearly in this thread regarding what free will is all about. i posted something more indepth and through in another thread. it's in a "why do you believe in the bible" thread or something like that..

Fourth: i'm too lazy to repost it in this thread and copy it. you do the searching.

Fifth: My posts aren't really clear all the time, cause i'm making a puzzle. i'm making it harder to solve by using complex logical structures. this may not make sense to any of you, but it will once you have figured it out. the cue is when you laugh. when you laugh, then you have figured it out..

Sixth: I'm so bored talking about religion or philosophy. there has always been debates between believers and non-believers since my childhood. i wonder, maybe i can ignore all of this. yes, i'm right, i'll just ignore this stuff.

Seventh: I'm a lazy one. Go talk about "free will" to someone.

Eighth: I don't care about it anymore, i don't care who's right or wrong. i have nothing against you or anyone, infact i respect you. till then man, take care..

[Logos]

Topic closed by request of the OP :)