self-sacrifice

[simon]

In the novel The Razor's Edge by Somerset Maugham, a book about finding faith, there is an interesting conversation in which the following is said,

Jesus fasted in the wilderness for 40 days and the devil proposed to him when he was hungry to turn the stones to bread if he was the son of god, but he wouldn't. Later the devil said throw yourself from this pinnacle and angels will save you, but Jesus wouldn't and the devil proposed other temptations that were declined. But then the character in the book says the following,

"But Jesus said Get thee hence, Satan. That's the end of the story according to the good simple Mathew. But it wasn't. The devil was sly and he came to Jesus once more and said: If thou wilt accept shame and disgrace, scourging, a crown of thorns and death on a cross thou shalt save the human race, for greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Jesus fell. The devil laughed till his sides ached, for he knew the evil men would commit in the name of their redeemer."

I ask you is self sacrifice worth it, does anyone do this, what does it mean and do you think that according to this idea that the devil was correct? Is evil inevitable?

[Hephzibah]

Well, first off...Razor's Edge is a story and not truth.

Secondly, if you have never experienced self-sacrifice then you can not understand.

Do you have children? If they were hungry and you had very little ~ would you not make sure they ate befroe you did? This is just one example of selflessness.

Another comes to mind:(long but WORTH THE READ)

Carl was a quiet man. He didn't talk much. He would always greet you with a big smile and a firm handshake. Even after living in our neighborhood for over 50 years, no one could really say they knew him very well.

Before his retirement, he took the bus to work each morning. The lone sight of him walking down the street often worried us. He had a slight limp from a bullet wound received in WWII. Watching him, we worried that although he had survived WWII, he may not make it through our changing uptown neighborhood with its ever-increasing random violence, gangs, and drug activity.

When he saw the flyer at our local church asking for volunteers for caring for the gardens behind the minister's residence, he responded in his characteristically unassuming manner. Without fanfare, he just signed up. He was well into his 87th year when the very thing we had always feared finally happened.

He was just finishing his watering for the day when three gang members approached him. Ignoring their attempt to intimidate him, he simply asked, "Would you like a drink from the hose?"

The tallest and toughest-looking of the three said, "Yeah sure", with a malevolent little smile. As Carl offered the hose to him, the other two grabbed Carl's arm, throwing him down. As the hose snaked crazily over the ground, dousing everything in its way, Carl's assailants stole his retirement watch and his wallet, and then fled. Carl tried to get himself up, but he had been thrown down on his bad leg. He lay there trying to gather himself as the minister came running to help him. Although the minister had witnessed the attack from his window, he couldn't get there fast enough to stop it.

"Carl, are you okay? Are you hurt?" the minister kept asking as he helped Carl to his feet. Carl just passed a hand over his brow and sighed, shaking his head. "Just some punk kids. I hope they'll wise-up someday." His wet clothes clung to his slight frame as he bent to pick up the hose. He adjusted the nozzle again and started to water.

Confused and a little concerned, the minister asked, "Carl, what are you doing?" "I've got to finish my watering. It's been very dry lately", came the calm reply. Satisfying himself that Carl really was all right, the minister could only marvel. Carl was a man from a different time and place.

A few weeks later the three returned. Just as before their threat was unchallenged.

Carl again offered them a drink from his hose. This time they didn't rob him. They wrenched the hose from his hand and drenched him head to foot in the icy water. When they had finished their humiliation of him, they sauntered off down the street, throwing catcalls and curses, falling over one another laughing at the hilarity of what they had just done. Carl just watched them. Then he turned toward the warmth giving sun, picked up his hose, and went on with his watering.

The summer was quickly fading into fall. Carl was doing some tilling when he was startled by the sudden approach of someone behind him. He stumbled and fell into some evergreen branches. As he struggled to regain his footing, he turned to see the tall leader of his summer tormentors reaching down for him. He braced himself for the expected attack. "Don't worry old man, I'm not gonna hurt you this time." The young man spoke softly, still offering the tattooed and scarred hand to Carl. As he helped Carl get up, the man pulled a crumpled bag from his pocket and handed it to Carl. "What's this?" Carl asked. "It's your stuff," the man explained. "It's your stuff back. Even the money in your wallet." "I don't understand," Carl said. "Why would you help me now? "The man shifted his feet, seeming embarrassed and ill at ease." I learned something from you", he said. "I ran with that gang and hurt people like you. We picked you because you were old and we knew we could do it.

But every time we came and did something to you, instead of yelling and fighting back, you tried to give us a drink. You didn't hate us for hating you. You kept showing love against our hate." He stopped for a moment. "I couldn't sleep after we stole your stuff, so here it is back." He paused for another awkward moment, not knowing what more there was to say. "That bag's my way of saying thanks for straightening me out, I guess." And with that, he walked off down the street.

Carl looked down at the sack in his hands and gingerly opened it. He took out his retirement watch and put it back on his wrist. Opening his wallet, he checked for his wedding photo. He gazed for a moment at the young bride that still smiled back at him from all those years ago.

Carl died one cold day after Christmas that winter. Many people attended his funeral in spite of the weather. In particular the minister noticed a tall young man that he didn't know sitting quietly in a distant corner of the church.

The minister spoke of Carl's garden as a lesson in life. In a voice made thick with unshed tears, he said, "Do your best and make your garden as beautiful as you can. We will never forget Carl and his garden."

The following spring another flyer went up. It read: "Person needed to care for Carl's garden." The flyer went unnoticed by the busy parishioners until one day when a knock was heard at the minister's office door. Opening the door, the minister saw a pair of scarred and tattooed hands holding the flyer. "I believe this is my job, if you'll have me," the young man said.

The minister recognized him as the same young man who had returned the stolen watch and wallet to Carl. He knew that Carl's kindness had turned this man's life around. As the minister handed him the keys to the garden shed, he said, "Yes, go take care of Carl's garden and honor him."

The man went to work and, over the next several years, he tended the flowers and vegetables just as Carl had done. In that time, he went to college, got married, and became a prominent member of the community. But he never forgot his promise to Carl's memory and kept the garden as beautiful as he thought Carl would have kept it.

One day he approached the new minister and told him that he couldn't care for the garden any longer. He explained with a shy and happy smile, "My wife just had a baby boy last night, and she's bringing him home on Saturday."

"Well, congratulations!" said the minister, as he was handed the garden shed keys. "That's wonderful! What's the baby's name?" "Carl," he replied.

Author Unknown

[amuse]

beautiful. thank you for sharing.

[simon]

So according to that story the old man was self sacrificing beucase he didn't yell at the kids? Or the kid was self sacrificing becusae he decided to take care of the garden, or both? And is that really self sacrifice, what was being given up? It seems to me that the old man wasjust patient not self sacrificing. But what does this say about evil, that it can be overcome? And why sacrifice something of yourself when there will still be a continuation of evil in the future?

[amuse]

evil exists as a teacher i think. you learn from it until it doesn't affect your ability to be creative and loving in spite of it. and i think surrender/self-sacrifice comes into play when you turn your life over to love, because a lot of things hold us back from that, and unless you can do without them you'll never know what you really have.

[simon]

So do you suppose that out of evil can come goodness?

[amuse]

what a question - how am i supposed to answer that? :D

i suppose yes, though i think evil would remain evil.

[nome1486]

Yes, I agree it is possible for goodness to come out of all things. Even something that was evil could become good, although I suppose what you are saying is that pure evil itself never changes--which I would also agree with. Although that brings up another interesting question: do you think pure evil really could change to good, at the very end of this world? Not just be conquered, as we mostly tend to think, but simply change? I seem to remember a story somewhere that had something to this effect.

Now I would be really interested in trying to read The Razor's Edge again to see the context of that conversation. It reminds me of a similar theological type conversation in The Brothers Karamazov--there are several such conversations, actually.

[Max Whittaker]

Although that brings up another interesting question: do you think pure evil really could change to good, at the very end of this world? Not just be conquered, as we mostly tend to think, but simply change? I seem to remember a story somewhere that had something to this effect.


I believe everyone can change. Even pure evil is not immune to the light, just as good can fall from grace, I see no reason why evil can not redeem itself.

[simon]

Well in this book The Razor's Edge the Hindu beliefs are also discussed and thier idea that the universe has no beginning and no end and is "everlasting from growth to equilibruim, from equilibruim to decline, from decline to dissolution, from dissolution to growth and so on to all eternity". Basing my response on this quote I would say that good and evil are part of the universe and that at the end of the world they will go back to nothingness to be created or extracted or something again. I think that good and evil must provide a balance of some kind to continue this cycle onto eternity, for if there was no evil how could existence fall time after time? Your comments are very interesting Max, I wonder what is redeemption? What does this provide? A second chance? If so would that not come in the next cycle?

This is speculation though taken from an idea in the book and then added onto by myself.

[subterranean]

Taosim and Buddhism speak the same things...no absolute evil nor good. I share the ideathat evil (person) may end up being a good person and the other way around, but somehow i think there's an absolute evil and goodness (talking from my point of view and since i believe in god and the devil).

is self sacrifice worth it? i dont know. but if i asked this to my mom, she would definetly say YES..in terms that she has given all her life to raise her children alone, abandoning all her interests and dreams since young age. in a way, she already sacrifice her self.

[Max Whittaker]

Your comments are very interesting Max, I wonder what is redeemption? What does this provide? A second chance? If so would that not come in the next cycle?



My concept of redemption is based in the current life. No matter what evil a person has don't in the past, everyone has a chance to change. Now, that doesn't change the things they did nor does it excuse their actions. But if they truly are sorry and have put that life behind them, they have an opportunity to do enough good to redeem themselves.


I believe self-sacrifice is always worth it. Even when people don't appreciate, it is worth it. I feel it is the most honorable way to live and die.

[simon]

The Japanese culture puts alot of stock in self-sacrifice. What about the kamikazee warriors, they are fascinating, they must have alot of faith in their cause and the ability of their people to previal in order to sacrifice themselves, isn't it considered a sign of honor to give themselves up to the enemy?

But supposing their sacrifice doesn't make good? As in if a soldier sacrifices himself to draw attention away from his men and his men are caught later anyway, does the initial deed make any difference? Was it worth it then?

[Max Whittaker]

The Japanese culture puts alot of stock in self-sacrifice. What about the kamikazee warriors, they are fascinating, they must have alot of faith in their cause and the ability of their people to previal in order to sacrifice themselves, isn't it considered a sign of honor to give themselves up to the enemy?

But supposing their sacrifice doesn't make good? As in if a soldier sacrifices himself to draw attention away from his men and his men are caught later anyway, does the initial deed make any difference? Was it worth it then?

The Japanese are a very good example of self-sacrifice! Buddism and the samurai code shaped much of the Japanese philosophy on life and death, as they had to life with it everyday. Religiously, they believed they would live again in the next life, so death wasn't so final for them. For the samurai warrior it was considered a great honor to die in battle. In fact, they expected to die in battle. Fear of death, they believed would make them vulnerable and less capable. So, based on that, I'd say they would be honored whether or not their sacrifice was in vain. To them, keeping their honor and the honor of their families was indeed worth the sacrifice. During WWII, that same mind-set was transfered to the new generation of soldiers and they died to uphold the honor of their nation.

As for myself, I would be absolutely appalled to find my sacrifice produced no results. To realize I died for the wrong reasons or those I died to protect died anyway would actually be rather embarrassing!!! :blush:

[simon]

Fear of death, to overcome that is an admirable feat. I suppose we have established fairly well that self sacrifice is worth doing, but what for? So far sacrificing for children seems to be the most plausible cause. Does this have anything to do with survival, preserving the next generation of species. Does self sacrifice have to be made out of love or can it be a done out of hate? Or just instinct for species preservation, the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few?

[subterranean]

The Japanese culture puts alot of stock in self-sacrifice. What about the kamikazee warriors, they are fascinating, they must have alot of faith in their cause and the ability of their people to previal in order to sacrifice themselves, isn't it considered a sign of honor to give themselves up to the enemy?



anyone wants to give comments about other self sacrifice actions based on cultural or religious belief....like the Jihad movememnts of the Palestine??

[simon]

I don't know about the Jihad movements, what do they entail?

[subterranean]

Jihad movement is based on religious beliefs (in this case Islam values). The teaching command the followers to fight for the belief, and die for it if it is necessary (called syuhada if im not mistaken). people who died in defending their belief are considered as a hero and will be rewarded place in heaven by God. Suicide bombings are the most common ways. you put bombs in your body then go to public places then blow the hell out of everyone in that place.

[simon]

I wonder if it qualifies as self sacrifice when it seems as though they get the reward of being in heaven with God.

[seeker]

I wonder if it qualifies as self sacrifice when it seems as though they get the reward of being in heaven with God.

That is an interesting question.

Many of the doctrines (which is the human ideas of what Christians should do, regardless of what they really are) of Christianity today are based on the idea of "treasures stored up in heaven" and the idea that one should not love this worlds goods, and after being saved by accepting Jesus, one should do good things in order to build up what you will have in heaven.

Actually, once when I was very young, in middle school I think, I asked the pastor of the church I was attending "Why the Bible says to be selfless and to not "love the things of this earth" if we were going to be rewarded in heaven?" I asked him "Isn't that just as selfish as if we wanted all those things here on earth?"

He said he didnt have an answer for that one.

I suppose the most holy of persons would be those who are willing to give everything they have and neither expect nor want anything in return for their actions.



"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back... Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

[simon]

Wow Seeker, I applaud your gall in asking the pastor such a question as that and stumping him nonetheless. Its seems as though there is no acceptable answer to whether or not having the reward of being in heaven still makes an act one of self sacrifice. It is certianly a hard question to answer.

This excerpt from Luke is quite provoking. But in loving your enemies is this done out of a love for onself, for if one didn't love themself and wasn't comfortable with themself then they would not be able to give love for those who hate them. If this is so then would this act of love really be a self sacrifice of some kind? A selfless act? Or in fact selfish in some way? What would have been given up? The ability to hate?

[seeker]

Wow Seeker, I applaud your gall in asking the pastor such a question as that and stumping him nonetheless. Its seems as though there is no acceptable answer to whether or not having the reward of being in heaven still makes an act one of self sacrifice. It is certianly a hard question to answer.

I am not one to accept the norm.



This excerpt from Luke is quite provoking. But in loving your enemies is this done out of a love for onself, for if one didn't love themself and wasn't comfortable with themself then they would not be able to give love for those who hate them. If this is so then would this act of love really be a self sacrifice of some kind? A selfless act? Or in fact selfish in some way? What would have been given up? The ability to hate?

I know this might sound kind of cheezy, but I like something Aunt May said in the most recent Spiderman movie:


Henry Jackson: Hi, Peter!
Peter Parker: Hey, Henry! You've grown tall.
May Parker: You'll never guess who he wants to be... Spider-Man!
Peter Parker: Why?
May Parker: He knows a hero when he sees one. Too few characters out there, flying around like that, saving old girls like me. And Lord knows, kids like Henry need a hero. Courageous, self-sacrificing people. Setting examples for all of us. Everybody loves a hero. People line up for them, cheer them, scream their names. And years later, they'll tell how they stood in the rain for hours just to get a glimpse of the one who taught them how to hold on a second longer. I believe there's a hero in all of us, that keeps us honest, gives us strength, makes us noble, and finally allows us to die with pride, even though sometimes we have to be steady, and give up the thing we want the most. Even our dreams.

[subterranean]

That is an interesting question.

Many of the doctrines (which is the human ideas of what Christians should do, regardless of what they really are) of Christianity today are based on the idea of "treasures stored up in heaven" and the idea that one should not love this worlds goods, and after being saved by accepting Jesus, one should do good things in order to build up what you will have in heaven.

Actually, once when I was very young, in middle school I think, I asked the pastor of the church I was attending "Why the Bible says to be selfless and to not "love the things of this earth" if we were going to be rewarded in heaven?" I asked him "Isn't that just as selfish as if we wanted all those things here on earth?"

He said he didnt have an answer for that one.



Personally I dont quite agree with the idea that we can't love anything in this world. I mean this world is created by God afterall, and should be love. I love nature, animals, exotic places of the earth, and everytime i see these things my heart never forgot to say thank you to God. I suppose it is a matter of how you interpret "Love for things in this world".
And personally, i never thought about reward in heaven. I see that in Islam there's a similiar promise from God about this heavenly rewards. I suppose if u want to be religious do it based on love and not on rewards

[simon]

So Seeker, what if the hero looked up to is merely the image of a hero, is the image still needed to bring hope and inspiration to others? What if these youths looking up to someone find out that their self sacrificing hero is infact just like everyone else?

I agree with you Sub that if people want to become devout in some faith it should be done out of love and not reward. So why is it then that some people are drawn by the prospect of reward?

[crisaor]

I agree with you Sub that if people want to become devout in some faith it should be done out of love and not reward. So why is it then that some people are drawn by the prospect of reward?
That's not necessarily so. People are sometimes drawn to a certain faith because that is supposed to provide things that are missing in their lives, or because it adds a different meaning, etc. What I mean by this is that people DO tend to do things expecting a reward. Come on, everybody knows it. You always do something in order to get something back, that's just the way it goes. What I think is the relevant point here is the nature of that reward, and this of course varies depending each case.

[Sancho]

Both good arguments.

Simon, this is a great thread, you’ve invoked some interesting responses. By the way, I may have been dreaming, but I thought I saw you use an exclamation point around here recently. (?!!!)

A few years ago I read an account of a Japanese Infantry assault against an American stronghold on one of those nameless South Pacific islands during WWII. The Japanese knew that they would take heavy losses during the attack and that the first couple of echelons of soldiers probably would not survive. The Japanese infantrymen had taken bailing wire and had wrapped it around their arms and legs. The idea was: they knew that they were going to be ripped to pieces but they wanted their appendages to be more or less held in place during the charge in order to appear more fearsome to the Americans.

I told this story to a co-worker of mine the next day. He thought about it for a minute and he said, “I guess it’s a good thing that they didn’t know about duck tape.” (I work with a lot of pragmatist)

[simon]

Haha! (punctuation and I have come to an understanding)
My mind has trouble fathoming the idea of knowing death will come and that it will be painfull. I wonder at the reason people who are safe in their homes and jobs are the ones asking these questions, not quite understanding the implications of self sacrifice, while there are those out there commiting these acts or at least prepared to in the utmost of faith. What kind of person does it take to wrap themselves in bailing wire in the face of death, one that is courageus or one that is riddled with fear? Does it take fear to instigate self sacrifice?

And Crisaor I am wondering if your comment on everybody wanting a reward means that there is no such thing as self sacrifice. For if there is a reward offered and gladly taken then the act commited was in fact selfish and therefore not self sacrificing. Or does self sacrifice just mean giving up something of yours for someone else and reward or not for the sacrificer has no consequence?

[subterranean]

I see that Crisaor has a point. I wacthed this independent movie where this reporter walking around in the street and public places asking people "How to get to heaven?" The majority of people interviewed answered "by believeing in God, go to church, do good deeds etc.". So perhaps people do expect reward (to go to heaven) by doing religious activity.

But I wonder if we change the question to "why do you choose to be a Muslim, or a Budhist or a Catholic?" I suppose the anwser wouldn't be "Cause I want to go to heaven", cause most religions (IMO), promised such thing as "eternal life in happinnes in heaven". I suppose the answer will be related to the teaching itself which they find could fulfill their spiritual needs in this material world. I suppose this is the "reward" that I expect from holding/practicing a certain belief/religion.

[crisaor]

And Crisaor I am wondering if your comment on everybody wanting a reward means that there is no such thing as self sacrifice. For if there is a reward offered and gladly taken then the act commited was in fact selfish and therefore not self sacrificing. Or does self sacrifice just mean giving up something of yours for someone else and reward or not for the sacrificer has no consequence?
No, of course not. Self sacrifice exists, but I think the issue here is how we define this term. If we understand it as "doing something in order to get absolutely nothing back", then I'm pretty much out of possible examples. A parent's sacrifice for their children has a wealthy reward, just not in monetary terms. Does this mean that it's a selfish act? No IMO. I guess I view it as a term which defines an action oriented to satisfy another person's needs/wishes above the personal ones, whatever these may be.

But I wonder if we change the question to "why do you choose to be a Muslim, or a Budhist or a Catholic?" I suppose the anwser wouldn't be "Cause I want to go to heaven", cause most religions (IMO), promised such thing as "eternal life in happinnes in heaven". I suppose the answer will be related to the teaching itself which they find could fulfill their spiritual needs in this material world. I suppose this is the "reward" that I expect from holding/practicing a certain belief/religion.
I agree. If you actually choose to follow a particular religion (that is, if you weren't taught when you were little and later on embraced one), I believe it's because of what you say. Going to heaven isn't a circus prize which can be won at the "become a member of a religion" game, it's a little bit more complicated than that.

[Taliesin]

This recalls me a story I read some while ago.
It was about a very rich man who was visited by a famous ascetic. He praised the acetic for such great sacrifice, but the ascetic said: "Oh, you are a much greater ascetic than I am. I have only denied myself from this world, but you have denied yourself the realm of heaven." Or something like that.

[simon]

I guess I view it as a term which defines an action oriented to satisfy another person's needs/wishes above the personal ones, whatever these may be.

I agree with you Crisaor, it doesn't necissarily need to be a selfless act. You have given an acceptable definition of a hard concept. Does everyone accept this definition? If so I have another question for you, one built off of Sub's remark about "the answer will be related to the teaching itself which they find could fullfill thier spiritual needs in this material world".

Is it possible for a person to commit self sacrifice for themself? As in sacrificing their body for the spirit, soul, or mind? For instance, according to Crisaor's definition a monk burns his body for a cause, this would be self sacrifice. Now what if that monk had burned his body in order to free his soul from the confines of the body, is that a self sacrifice? And delving off of Taliesin's remarks as well, say that the physcial body didn't even need to be rid of, what if this monk, or spiritual person, or ascetic had denied himself from the physical world just by staying in his mind, is that a self sacrifice for himself, for his soul?

[subterranean]

Well suppse it's just a half sacrifice...I mean he sacrifice a part of his existance (in this case his material body) to achieve something higher, which is the freedom of his soul (other part of his existance). this achievement is a form of reward

[crisaor]

I agree with you Crisaor, it doesn't necissarily need to be a selfless act. You have given an acceptable definition of a hard concept.
I did? Cool. :)

Is it possible for a person to commit self sacrifice for themself? As in sacrificing their body for the spirit, soul, or mind?
I don't think it's possible. That would qualify as sacrifice, not self-sacrifice. The only interests here are those of the person who makes the sacrifice.

[simon]

Aaah I didn't think about that Crisaor, your right the action would not involve another person so it wouldn't qualify as self sacrifice. Neither did I think that such a sacrifice would be a reward, but that makes sense as well. I wonder if I can find a person who has commited self sacrifice, I want to know what it is like, what were they thinking, do they think of their act as self sacrifice, are they humble and caring? Does anybody know any books that discuss this phenomenon, fiction or fact?

[Sancho]

Hey simon, how was the backpacking trip?

Iliad. Achilles knew that he would die when he engaged in combat with Hector. His dilemma was: to live a short and glorious life, or to live a long and boring life (suburban nightmare). Achilles, of course, chose “kleos.” Achilles chose death so that his name would be remembered around the campfires of fielded armies for years to come. It worked.

A lot of soldiers through the ages have done likewise. You can read their marble engraved names on monuments in Washington DC, London, Moscow, etc. A recent example that I can think of occurred in Mogadishu when Army Master Sergeants Gary Gordon and Randall Shughart sacrificed themselves during a battle over a downed helicopter. Nowadays you can train for urban combat at the Shughart-Gordon range, Fort Polk, Louisiana and then go drink a beer in the Shughart-Gordon room of the NCO Club, Fort Polk, Louisiana. Journalist Mark Bowden does a nice job of telling their story in his book, Black Hawk Down.

Another recent book that has at least a half dozen instances of self sacrifice, is Hal Moore’s book, We were Soldiers once, Young and Brave… Moore/Galloway’s book recounts the 7th Cavalry’s battle in the Ia-Drang Valley, Vietnam. One of the heroes of the book was one of Hal Moore’s Company Commanders, Captain Rick Rescorla. It’s his picture on the front of the book. Lt. Col. Moore believed Capt Rescorla to be the best battlefield commander he’d ever seen. Recently, Rick Rescorla was a security chief for a financial company based in New York’s World Trade Center. He was last seen in the south tower on September 11, 2001; he was singing Welch Folk songs, and moving up the stairs, rallying people to evacuate. He apparently saved thousands. He has “Kleos.”

[simon]

Good examples Crisaor, it seems that there are many war examples. Perhaps it is the crisis which brings out this trait in humans to sarifice themselves for the better of mankind or a fellow human. Could it possibly be part of the hard wiring of the human brain, where survival of the species rules? The gift of self sacrifice is one not seen often, I wonder at the reactions of those saved by a self sacrifice and of those who merely hear of it. Does it inspire hope and faith in mankind or does it lead to thoughts of futality due to the existence of evil deeds still commited in the aftermath?

And as for backpacking- it was great! (every part of that exclamation is worth it) I went with my family to the Wallowas, a mountain range in Oregon near the corner with Washington and Idaho. We day hiked up these huge passes and at night slept out of the tent, but we seem to have been in the middle of a deer trail becuase they kept stumbling on us in the night and freaking out, death by hoof was a very plausible option. And I got some gorgeous views of sunset from the top of this rocky ridge, and lots of pictures of flowers, indian paintbrush, gentians, wild onion, and lots of others I don't know the names too. It was a very successfull trip and I always hate to come back to society, it's culture sock in the most extreme sense to be in hte wilderness, filled with peace and beauty, and then return suddenly to a car, the pavement, and all this yelling and honking and human degredation and desecration.

[crisaor]

Iliad. Achilles knew that he would die when he engaged in combat with Hector. His dilemma was: to live a short and glorious life, or to live a long and boring life (suburban nightmare). Achilles, of course, chose “kleos.” Achilles chose death so that his name would be remembered around the campfires of fielded armies for years to come. It worked.
Actually, it was the other way round. Hector was the mortal who knew he'd probably die against Achilles.


Good examples Crisaor, it seems that there are many war examples.
It wasn't me. The credit belongs to Sancho. :)

[Sancho]

I just loves a good discussion on Homer. Crisaor, my classically trained friend, you are absolutely correct: Achilles killed Hector. The point that I was trying to make was poorly laid out. I should’ve said, Achilles knew he would die if he rejoined the fight. I was thinking of his conversation with his mom in book 9:

"Mother tells me, immortal goddess Thetis with her glistening feet,
that two fates bear me on to the day of death.
If I hold out here and I lay siege to Troy,
My journey home is gone, but my glory never dies.
If I voyage back to the fatherland I love,
My pride, my glory dies…
True, but the life that’s left me will be long,
The stroke of death will not come on me quickly."

You see, Achilles knows that he will die if rejoins the fight and he also knows that his Kleos will live forever because his goddess/momma told him so. (I’m a southern man and all of our momma’s are goddess’s but that’s a subject for another day). Anyhow, Achilles dilemma: short glorious life or long boring life in the 'burbs. He chose glory.

Not so much different that the dilemma faced by modern soldiers, I think, (reference Army Master Sergeants Shugart and Gordon from my earlier post). In this type of case, I don’t think that the decision to sacrifice one’s self is made on the basis of the betterment of mankind. Rather, I think, that it’s made out of respect for that small, intimate nucleus of soldiers/friends. I’m thinking now of the many instances of the average grunt who jumps on a live grenade to save his Platoon. If he survives (grenade duds, body armor saves him etc.) he will inevitably say that he was only thinking of his fellow soldiers.

[crisaor]

I just loves a good discussion on Homer. Crisaor, my classically trained friend, you are absolutely correct: Achilles killed Hector. The point that I was trying to make was poorly laid out. I should’ve said, Achilles knew he would die if he rejoined the fight. I was thinking of his conversation with his mom in book 9
Who doesn't? ;)
I see your point now. Good example.

[simon]

Forgive me Sancho I randomly typed the last name I had seen instead of yours, thanks for clarifying Crisaor. And as you so aptly stated who doesn't love a bout of Homer, what discussion is whole without it? It seems to me that alot of sacrifices are made on the basis of a tradition. A tradition of the preservation of family and upholding standards. In respect to Achilles it has always seemed to me that he is merely concerned with the respect of his peers, upholding his image. And a life without that famed war expertise is inconvievable to him. But this is just another perspective.

[Sancho]

No worries simon, and the backpacking trip sounds like it was a hoot. My favorite part of a hike is when I’ve traveled beyond the point on the trail at which the car-public feels comfortable. Then it’s just me, a few other like-minded individuals and glorious mother-nature. My least favorite part is seeing my car again.

Anyhoo, Homer certainly has had an enormous effect on the western tradition. It would be fun to debate which has had a greater influence on western thought/culture: the Homeric Epics or the Bible.

As familiar as Achilles seems to me in some respects (a typical Hollywood super-hero), in other ways he seems totally foreign. Achilles is smarter, stronger, more passionate, fights better, and is more cunning than everyone else; and yet, he’d burst into tears if someone, sort-of, hurt his feelings. Clint Eastwood would never do that. I think that your perception of him may say something about the subject at hand. That is, is self sacrifice selfless or selfish? I think it was Friedrich Nietzsche who believed that most seemingly altruistic behavior was really just filling some deeply selfish motive. As you said, Achilles was more concerned with the respect of his peers <than death>