The Antichrist

[Christian]

The word Antichrist is only mentioned four times throughout the Bible and only in the first and second letters of John.

He speaks of Antichrist(Singular Entity) "you have heard that Antichrist is to come" and in the less defined plurality "even now there are many Antichrists". 1 John 2:18

Paul also makes reference to this anti-christ power that is to come

Speaking of the second coming he says:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" 2 Thess 2:3

So there will be a falling away and a departure from true doctrine

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" 2 Thess 2:4

Here we see also that Antichrist shall be a religious power for he sitteth within the Temple of God

So we have a number of interesting characteristics

The first being that Jesus shall not return until Antichrist has revealed himself and he will reveal himself when the church departs from true doctrine; also this power will be a religious power and that religious power will declare itself God.

So

Antichrist must be revealed
After departure from true doctrine
It/she/he will be a religious power
It/she/he will make a declaration of being God

The apostles were of course earnest students of the scriptures, and it would seem that this understanding is drawn from scripture. Because the last text quoted in 2 Thess 2:4 bares a similarity with the scripture found in Daniel 11:36:

"And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods..."

So just as it said in 2 Thessalonians that he "exalteth himself above all that is called God" so to this entity does likewise.

The prophetic book of Daniel works on what seems to be a principle of God, in that he repeats and enlarges that which came before. So to understand that which is said we go back to earlier chapters.

And this is made clear by a reference in the verse to an earlier portion. When it says "shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods" the earlier reference is to be found in Daniel 7:25 where it says:

"and he shall speak great words against the most high..."

So far we have a continuity of relation in the Bible on the theme of Antichrist. Here, as in other places which relate to here, we shall be able to determine whom Antichrist is. And I shall tell you know and justify it hereafter it is the Catholic Church, not the people but the system and only the system.

Incidentally anti- means against, but it has additional meaning as in "in the place of" such as in "antitype"

Daniel Chapter 7

This chapter gives a chronology of the different world empires, symbolized by beasts, that were to emerge from Daniel's time in 605 BC right down to our own. Now it does not give these beasts the name of the empires they will represent, BUT this chapter does parallel Daniel chapter 2 which shows the same number of world empires and graciously gives us the name of the first, Babylon.

You may ask, well what does this have to do with the antichrist power that "shall speak great words against the most high..." well in order to determine where in time and locality we find and identify him we must first do the same with that which comes before him

So we look at the parallels between Daniel two and Daniel seven and then we see:

The number of separations are the same, there are four metals just as there are four beasts

Golden head, most precious metal (Dan 2:32) - Lion, king of beasts(Dan 7:4)
His legs of Iron (Dan 2:33) - Fourth beast with great iron teeth (Dan7:7)
Ten toes (Dan 2:33) - Fourth Beast with ten horns (Dan 7:7)

So when we see the parallels with chapter 7 and chapter 2, and chapter further emphasizes these parallels. Then we know the chapters are related. The advantage of this of course is then that we have a starting empire for the beasts, namely: Babylon.

Now the rest is simple history in that we know that Medo-Persia followed Babylon and Greece followed Medo-Persia and then finally Rome followed Greece.

Permit me now to show that this is what Daniel is saying also by showing how the different characteristics of the beasts relate to these empires

Medo-Persia

-Raised up on one side
The kingdom Medo-Persia had an imbalance in that Persia was always the stronger of the two(If you read in chapter eight you will see this repeated and enlarged upon in another beast, and there the angel informs us that this beast is Medo-Persia)
-Three Ribs
The kingdom of Medo-Persia conquered three other empires, the three being Babylon, Lydia and Egypt

Greece

-Four wings
Alexander the great conquered the near east with such speed that it was only a period of ten years
-Four heads
When Alexander died his kingdom was split by his four generals, Cassander, Ptolemy, Lysimachus and Seleucius

Rome(Well known as the Iron empire)

-Ten horns
Ten horns are defined in the bible as powers (Daniel 7:24 "the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise")
When Rome fell in 476 AD the empire was divided amongst the ten Germanic tribes

Now we come to the little horn power(which is "different from the first"Dan7:24)

First let us see the characteristics of the Little horn

Comes up among the the ten horns - Dan 7:8
Different from the first(horns that is) Dan7:24
Plucks up three of the other horns Dan 7:8,24
Shall wear out the saints Dan 7:25
Shall think to change times and laws Dan 7:25
Shall continue for time times and the dividing of time Dan 7:25

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Now here we find a bit of math so beware :)

Time in the hebrew culture means one year, times means two years and the dividing of time means half of a year. So 3 and a 1/2 prophetic years. Then the Bible defines days as years if you look at Numbers 14:34 "each day for a year" and Ezekial 4:6 "I have appointed thee each day for a year".

Also Jesus would refer to his ministry in terms of days and not years Luke 13:32 "..I do cures today and tomorrow and the third day I shall be perfected"

So when you consider that this power shall reign for 3 and one half years and you know then that 3 and one half years is 1260 days. And that according to the bible these days are years which amount then to 1260 years. You have then a power that will reign for 1260 years.

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Now I would say that here is a significant list of details which would make it hard not to find whom it should indicate. After all we are looking for a power that rises up amongst the ten german tribes, that is different from them and subdues three of them, that persecutes the saints, that changes times and laws and that shall continue for 1260 years.

The Identity of Antichrist

The Catholic Church in 313AD under the auspices of Constantine was the one to change the 4th Commandment of the ten in God's law from worship upon the Sabbath day(the seventh day being Saturday, the dictionary will show you that) to the hallowing of Sunday, which is why many protestant denominations worship on Sunday to this day. It emerged to absolute power amongst the ten germanic tribes and subdued three that were in opposition, these three being the Heruli the Ostrogoths and the Vandals. Directly after having subdued the last, being the Ostrogoths, by the aid of Belisarius Emperor Justinians general, Pope Virgilius ascended the papal chair in 538 AD. Supreme ecclestiastical and civil authority was given him by the emperor over all churches and district.

The catholic church is responsible for more persecution than any other single entity, it has killed millions and millions of people. Mostly in the persecution of the saints

This church reigned for 1260 years from 538 to 1798 where Napolean Bonaparte in the person of Berthier his general dethroned the pope and confiscated the papal states and to all appearances it seemed as though the papal empire had come to an end.

But as everybody here today knows, the Catholic Church did not die, it's wound has been healed. And the continuation of it's history and future is to be found in Daniel and Revelation

[Wintermute]

Hi Christian,

I did enjoy reading your essay.

So the Catholic Church is the anti-christ in your opinion? Why all the obfuscation? Why not just say directly: "A church, calling it's self the Catholic church will be the anti-christ."

I never will understand how folks can think the bible is a well written book. Nothing is explained clearly. Its almost like the scribes and translators over the years have bastardized the text to the point that one can interpret anything. I mean, I'm sure the pope won't agree with your explanation. I guess it has provided for lots of speculative fun over the ages, but sheesh!

It seems like all the bible really needs to say is, "In order to find happiness, do unto others as you would have them do to you." And save all the paranormal, hocus-pocus, codex, mystery writing to the professionals.

As usual, being agnostic, I could be wrong.

[Thinkerr]

Interesting, but I don't agree with you. The word Catholic means "universal". so it would only be a worldwide religion, not the current "Catholic" church.

[Christian]

Who are we to question God's means of stating his purpose to us, can he not see what we cannot. There is obviously a reason as to why he has chosen to use symbols and just because we cannot think why, does not mean to say that it is not a good one.

Thinker: It is interesting that you should say so, for in fact this institution is universal today, if you wish to see a good presentation of this then go to google video and search for "total onslaught the wine of babylon"

The bible is of no private interpretation, it interprets it's own symbols then it is for us to apply the interpretation.

Wintermute: I have something wonderful to show you and also to anyone else of course

You say that you wonder as to why people say that the bible is a well written book. Let me show you how well written it really is, IT IS BEAUTIFUL.

Psalm 74:14

"thou breakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness."

*point to note
Here you can see that this creature has more than one head

Isaiah 27:1

"In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

*the same creature is a serpent, a dragon which is in the sea.(note this, in the sea"

Revelation 12:3

"and there appeared another wonder in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads"

*so without mention of leviathan we have the dragon which has seven heads

Revelation 12:9

"and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and satan...."

*here dragon is related back to serpent and further defined as the devil and satan

Revelation 17:15

"...the waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes and nations and tongues"

*finally the waters are peoples and multitudes

So we see here a continuity in the development of God's symbols

The leviathan who has a plurality of heads is shown to be a serpent and dragon in the sea. Later we see the number of his plurality to be seven and he is further defined as satan. then we see that the sea is multitudes and peoples

So God will destroy Satan who is amongst the people he "which deceiveth the whole world"

And this is NOTHING in comparison to what is to be shown

Psalms is written by David approx 1000BC
Isaiah is written by Isaiah approx 692BC
and Revelation is written by John approx 90AD

and yet to have this continuity and subtle development is really quite something.

Seriously if you think the bible is just something quaint then I challenge you to view "total onslaught" at google video, it will confound your notions.

[Christian]

Incidentally it does not have anything to do with the name "Catholic" they can have called it whatever they pleased it would still have been the same institution

"what's in a name that which we call" catholic "by any other name" would be just as bad

[Wintermute]

Hi Christian,

I'm afraid I must be too stoopid to understand. For the life of me I don't get what you're trying to say.

For example you say, "There is obviously a reason as to why he has chosen to use symbols and just because we cannot think why, does not mean to say that it is not a good one." How is this obvious? It's not obvious to me at all. It's not even obvious to me that a Christian god exists, let alone what it's intent is.

I do not mean to offend, I just don't get it.

I know I'm getting off your topic of the Catholic church being the anti-christ, sorry.

[kilted exile]

Yep, quite right. The Catholic Church is responsible for all the horrors of this world, it is an evil & subserviant organisation:rolleyes: You wouldnt happen to be the Rev.Iain Paisley in real life would you?

[Logos]

Any more personal remarks? topic will be closed :smash:

[Christian]

Kilted Exile : Exactly, what I am saying is not new, albeit it is more developed, most of the reformers held to the same opinion. Even Isaac Newton came to the same conclusion, in fact he wrote more on the Bible than ever he did on Science. This opinion is still as valid today as it was yesterday.

Wintermute: Granted, you have not come to know that there is a God yet. So let me put it this way, there are reasons for all things just as there will be a necessary reason for why symbols and parallelism is used to expound the future in prophecy.

You may question why I know there is a God and I would say that when you have experienced what I have experienced both in relation to the Bible and in general life, it is certainly more logical to believe in a God than to not. Let me tell you some things(in brief, my posts are already too long) :

My friends brother was possessed of a demon of which spoke to his family through him(a deep booming voice which was not his own)

Another friend had possession in his home where the plates would fly across the kitchen

My brothers girlfriend could lift things without touching them and she said that when one listens to heavy metal you can lift heavier things

You may laugh, but this is the truth irrespective of disbelief.

I personally also received the promise of Jesus as has my sister and others I know. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, when the apostles began preaching this message it was a powerful one, "Repent and receive ye the Holy Ghost". It is a mighty presence of which you can feel and know that it is otherworldly, you feel a supreme love and willingness to go and tell any and all about it. (and it most certainly is not displayed by a flood of incoherent babble, such as the speaking in tongues)

This experience was in keeping with the biblical teaching, that there is a baptism to be had still today as it was in that day.

and of course the symmetrical nature of a book that I remember thinking so dull and yet it is the most exciting book you will ever read. It is just full of intellectual gems to find, the parallelism and symmetry within it's written structure is simply amazing.

But it is a result of this that it would simply be foolish of me to think otherwise.

By the way, I'm not trying to be arrogant in saying "this is the way walk you in it". It's just that it is the only way and I must support it

[mazHur]

The concept of Anti-Christ is not restricted to Catholics or Christians in general,
but it is found in other religions as well. However, in each cae the concept differs in its basics. It is not fair to accuse the Catholic or any other church for being Anti-christ. It could be you, me or anyone else for that sake!

[Orionsbelt]

My apologies in advance. However, If this is the level of spiritual development that can be expected from careful study of the bible. Count me among the damned and glad to be so.

[NikolaiI]

to be so what?

[Wintermute]

Hi Orion,

Me too. Sometimes if feel so ignorant when I read this kind of thing. 95% (or something like that) of Amrericans claim to beleive in the christian god, without question. I've tried. I've read the bible. I've prayed. I discuss spirituality with anyone willing to do so. And I've found absolutely no reason to suspect that christians have it right. But, 95%! I can't help feeling like I'm missing something. Perhaps I'll be joining you among the damned.

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Howdy NikolaiI,

Wait! What?

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Hi mazHur

"It could be you, me or anyone else for that sake!"

Or no one? If one were omnipotent and omnicient, why all the theatrics? Why universes, and earths, and floods, and crucifixions, and anti-christs? Why not just fast forward to the end-just jump hop to the way you already know things are going to turn out?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Christian,

Wow, those are some scary events. I've never had anything like that happen or even know anyone that has. I did have a peculiar thing happen with some animals once that made me wonder if the Native Americans my be closer to the truth than many of us give them credit for.

". . .it is certainly more logical to believe in a God than to not."

If you are referring to a specific god, say the christian god, I would disagree strongly. It is absolutely illogical. However if you are meaning a more general creator of the universe, I would not argue as vorciously. By my logic, there should be nothing. Nada. Zip. An empty vacuum. Yet here we are. Something amazing is going on.

[mazHur]

Wintermute

Check out for answers at http://shahidbhagatsingh.org/index.asp?link=atheist

[Granny5]

I thought the internet was the antichrist.

[Pendragon]

And I know when to keep my mouth shut, regaurdless of what I feel to be correct. There comes a time when all you are doing is simply providing the handbasket with good intentions. Christian, mon ami, I admire your stand on what you believe far more than you know. It isn't easy to take the personal attacks that one can garner by voicing one's beliefs. At the same time, remember what I have said. You will understand in time. I have probably locked horns with most people here at one time or other. The frontal attack doesn't work as well as simple conversation. Respect the other even if you think them wrong.

God Bless

Pen

[Christian]

Wintermute

I said that after my experiences with the bible and general life it was more logical.

The Bible says that there are fallen angels, demons, within this world.

It also speaks of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and how that is available to those who truly repent of their sins and believe the Gospel

So when I received this, in the manner of which it is stated in the Bible (Acts of the Apostles), and it had the same characteristics of that spiritual experience, then it led me to understand that the other spiritual experiences must have been from the evil ones within this this world. Not to speak least of the Bible itself in confirming that God has not left us without sight he has shown us, in Daniel and Revelation(as others to), what must be in our time and the future.

Oh how I wish each person could experience this. And you can too, it is completely up to you, no one can force you, not even God will force you.

But I can of course suggest material to increase your faith

As suggested "total onslaught" at google video
Also "The Great Controversy" by Ellen White A book that clearly outlines the development of the Catholic Church and how it figures as the Antichrist both within the bible and literally.

Anyway, if you want to know more about the beautiful symmetry within the bible, not doctrines or "thou shalt"'s or anything like that but just the symmetry within the bible and how it relates to itself then please send me a private message and I'll send you some examples.

Pendragon: I realize that when one discusses theoritical matters it is the fashion to not seem conclusive on an issue. But Christianity really has a need for urgency, because people need to accept it or they may be lost.

[mazHur]

My experience is that the more you indulge in religion the more you get lost.......

It's never two plus two is equal to four in religion,,,,,,any religion.

[Christian]

But please people:

Focus on the argument and criticize what I have said, read in the bible for yourselves and see what concerns and issues you may have with what I am saying.

[mazHur]

There is more to Bible or any other scripture or religion and that''s Commonsense!

Miracles, magic, science, arts , etc etc are believable because they fulfil the criteria of knowledge (or lack of it)

[Wintermute]

Its funny how we all seem to be convinced that we, individually, have found the truth. I'm sure the folks that flew the planes into the wtc were just as convinced as any of us. The guys that bomb the abortion clinics are equally convinced. The folks that taunt snakes, and the sucide bombers in Iraq are equally certain. Christian seems very confident in his/her conclusions. As does Pendragon. Personally, I'm in the same boat. I'm convinced no human has a clue what's really going on in the universe. I admit, I could be wrong. Its absolute certainty that scares the beejebers out of me. Christian, are you 100% certain that the Catholic church is the anti-christ? Could you be wrong? Could the bible be wrong? Just curious.

[Christian]

With the amount of evidence against the Catholic Church, it is highly improbable that it is not the prophesied Antichrist.

Have you viewed the presentation at google video? "total onslaught the wine of babylon"

This presentation alone is not sufficient, ideally all of them should be viewed, however this is sufficient to show you the duplicitous nature of this church.

[Wintermute]

Hi Christian,

All churches seem a might duplicitous to me, hehe. But if duplicity is the measure of an antichrist, Fox news, {edit} and the Marlboro man should be included in the list of potentials, no?

Just curious, is the Antichrist synonymous with the devil, satan, lucifer, etc. Are they the same thinking entity?

I will check out the google video this evening. I'm at work at the moment. Would you do the same for me Christian? See if you can find the series Cosmos, by Carl Sagan. It was done back in the 80's, but is really a wonderful examination of cosmology, religion (including Catholic history) and all kinds of other things that you may find interesting. No biggie if ya don't want to 8-).

[Granny5]

Hi Christian,

All churches seem a might duplicitous to me, hehe. But if duplicity is the measure of an antichrist, Fox news, {edit}, and the Marlboro man should be included in the list of potentials, no?

Just curious, is the Antichrist synonymous with the devil, satan, lucifer, etc. Are they the same thinking entity?

I will check out the google video this evening. I'm at work at the moment. Would you do the same for me Christian? See if you can find the series Cosmos, by Carl Sagan. It was done back in the 80's, but is really a wonderful examination of cosmology, religion (including Catholic history) and all kinds of other things that you may find interesting. No biggie if ya don't want to 8-).

I think you may have something...{edit}

[Wintermute]

Hi Granny,

After I posted this I thought, "Uhoh!"

Because I don't think you're supposed to talk about political folks or things like that. I think I got in trouble for that a while back on this board. If this is the case moderator, my apologies--won't happen again.

[Orionsbelt]

You are correct that political statements are not allowed on the board. However, the point you are making is valid. I think the text lends itself to this kind of discussion. Speculation of this sort does nothing but promote fear and hate. My question is when you take your head out of the book and you look at the real person who is your neighbor who is Catholic, who's kids go to your school, who helped you paint your porch, who invited you over for a meal, what is it you have helped to promote? Do realize that hundreds and thousands of catholic priests read the same stuff. What conclusions would you like them to make. I am sure it would differ. For me this kind of "research" simply serves no good purpose no matter how buried in religious text. This is just my opinion.

[Christian]

Wintermute: It's interesting that you ask whether Antichrist is synonymous with satan, the devil. Because I can make use of two earlier posts in answering.

You remember the four beasts of Daniel 7? And the seven headed dragon in Rev 12?

Well if you count the number of heads and the number of horns on the beasts in Daniel 7 then you will find that it amounts to seven heads and ten horns. Now the dragon in Rev 12 who is said to be the devil and satan has also seven heads and ten horns. It seems the Bible is saying that it is satan that is behind these powers.

Also it is not merely it's duplicity, but the nature of it's duplicity.

Orionsbelt: Jesus said "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" Matthew 10:34

But I have to stress this, I am not speaking of the people, I believe there will be many devout catholics in heaven, but it is the SYSTEM that is Antichrist. Most assuredly.

[Granny5]

You are correct that political statements are not allowed on the board. However, the point you are making is valid. I think the text lends itself to this kind of discussion. Speculation of this sort does nothing but promote fear and hate. My question is when you take your head out of the book and you look at the real person who is your neighbor who is Catholic, who's kids go to your school, who helped you paint your porch, who invited you over for a meal, what is it you have helped to promote? Do realize that hundreds and thousands of catholic priests read the same stuff. What conclusions would you like them to make. I am sure it would differ. For me this kind of "research" simply serves no good purpose no matter how buried in religious text. This is just my opinion.

Orionsbelt, Thank you so much for your post. Why do people, in the name of Jesus and/or God, promote hate when all Jesus taught was love for one another, forgiveness, and tolerance? I can't understand why they focus on the obscure texts and ignore the teachings of Christ. I can't believe, don't want to believe, that the Jesus I have read of and been taught of my whole life would want to be associated with such hate.

[Christian]

Granny: read what I wrote in reply to Orionsbelt (two posts up)

And please let it sink in, this interpretation is not talking about CATHOLIC PEOPLE it is only the SYSTEM. I have nothing against a Catholic and would by no means express any hostility towards a Catholic.

[mazHur]

Christian or Non-christian, Jesus and Queen Mary equally enjoy profound respect and are considered sacred. I feel sorry to see that some folks here are bent on passing aspersive remarks to them and the sects who believe in their greatness.

Bible has about 13 or more editions and has been edited from time to time by various men. consequently, how can one believe in taking its every word as word of God. This is why I previously said we must use our Common sense in the matter. There is no doubt about the greatness of Jesus and his teachings.so why argue about futile issues and not follow his teachings??
I certainly do not appreciate criticism for the sake of criticism or spreading hatred amongst different sects or religions. I dare say that Muslims hold Jesus and Mary ( and even MOses and Abraham) in better esteem than most of the Christians. Even the Hindus do not have a word against them.. Why, then, Christians??

[Granny5]

Granny: read what I wrote in reply to Orionsbelt (two posts up)

And please let it sink in, this interpretation is not talking about CATHOLIC PEOPLE it is only the SYSTEM. I have nothing against a Catholic and would by no means express any hostility towards a Catholic.

Christian, there is no difference in what you have said than in saying that the antichrist is the Muslim religion or the Democrats or people with green eyes. It's a dangerous thing. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion except when it causes harm to others. One doesn't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater because of what would happen and how people could be harmed by the crowd.

[mazHur]

Christian, there is no difference in what you have said than in saying that the antichrist is the Muslim religion or the Democrats or people with green eyes. It's a dangerous thing. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion except when it causes harm to others. One doesn't yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater because of what would happen and how people could be harmed by the crowd.

For your information, Muslims believe in Jesus as a great prophet of the one God and no muslim in the world can dare speak any ill of him. Muslims further believe that Jesus will return to earth as Messiah or Imam Mehdi to wipe out the evil against enemies of God namely Dajjal ( I don't know if they mean anti-christ by it but they are definitely for Jesus)

Muslims also believe in all scriptures, Moses , Abraham, Isaac, etc etc. However, they don't believe in the humanly tampered versions of Bible or Torah as they exist now. For them the Quran is the holy scripture and they stick to it for its authenticity which has been preserved over the last more than 1400 years, not a single word or letter of it altered or fouled by human hands.

The differeces between Muslims is only due to as to who and who would have inherited the seat of the prophet Muhammad. No one did as Quran forbids it but yet a sect of Islam doesn't agree with that and the trouble between the sunni and shia continues,,,,,,,

[Christian]

Granny:

I understand that it is not very clear

But there is a difference: to be against Islam is not to be against all Moslems as people, to be against Democracy is not to be against all Democrats as people and to be against Catholicism is not be against all Catholics.

When I say that catholicism is a lie and a deception it does not mean I go and call all Catholics liars and deceivers.

However there must be some that are culpable of this charge, but not the general people, nor the general administration I would say.

There is a fire in the theater and this is the last act

[Scheherazade]

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