Ethical dilemma

[Bakiryu]

I know this is going to sound really stupid/or shallow

but since I'm a vegetarian my mother has been making lots of eggs lately, instead of meat.

But eggs are animal products, so isn't me eating then actually animal murder?

Should I actually eat eggs? Or am I going against my beliefs every time I have a piece of cake?

Help!

[Virgil]

There are vegetarians on the forum that can give a better opinion than me. I'm not a vegetarian. But I don't regard eggs as animals. They are unfertilized eggs. They have no capability to develop into animals. So what's the problem with eating them? Plus they have a lot of nutrition. Nutrition that you are probably not getting because you are not eating meat.

[Bakiryu]

Yeah, but they could've been chickens!

Can't you get enough nutricion from veggies? I've always had perfect health since I stopped eating meat.

[Shalot]

Can you eat egg beaters? They're just egg whites. I've been digging those lately. You just pour some in your frying pan and you've got a tasty protein filled breakfast. I don't know about it Baki - I think you need to eat meat. it's brain food!

I can see your point though in not wanting to eat meat just because the slaughtering process is so disgusting. But if it's an egg I don't see how that counts. A person has to eat.

[Bakiryu]

Can you eat egg beaters? They're just egg whites. I've been digging those lately. You just pour some in your frying pan and you've got a tasty protein filled breakfast. I don't know about it Baki - I think you need to eat meat. it's brain food!

I can see your point though in not wanting to eat meat just because the slaughtering process is so disgusting. But if it's an egg I don't see how that counts. A person has to eat.

I eat a lot, one full plate a day! plus, all the milk I drink for breakfast and lunch, and tea.

It makes me kinda sad thinking that my food could actually have been alive before I ate it.

[Oniw17]

There are vegetarians on the forum that can give a better opinion than me. I'm not a vegetarian. But I don't regard eggs as animals. They are unfertilized eggs. They have no capability to develop into animals. So what's the problem with eating them? Plus they have a lot of nutrition. Nutrition that you are probably not getting because you are not eating meat.

I guess I have nothing to add to this thread then.

[packersfan]

Protein is obviously one of the food groups, so you should try and get as much protein as possible. Truly this question relies on your eating habits. If you eat a lot of beans, soy products, fish (if you eat fish) and nuts, and you can be okay without eggs, then no. But if you don't eat enough protein products, you might just have to. There have been a lot of vegatarians getting sick from not eating enough meat. You don't want to protest eggs if you end up getting sick yourself. It also depends on the way you view baby eggs. Personally, I think its fine. The chicks haven't become yet, but then again I'm not a vegatarian. I believe in animal rights and I believe its better to be a vegatarian then not, but there are to many places I go where meat is all that they have, and not protein like beans and fish and what not. I hope this answered your question.

[motherhubbard]

I was a vegetarian for a few years and I understand your dilemma. There are those who eat no animal products- but it’s hard and takes a lot of planning and effort. You know I have chickens and can tell you a thing or two about the eggs. Store eggs are not fertilized, farm eggs are- my roosters wake up in the morning crowing for a reason. But they’re not even close to chickens yet. I eat my farm eggs every day and there isn’t even a start of a chicken in there, not even a speck. I couldn’t eat one if there was. Also, I hatch out many of my eggs and only about 30-50% ever even hatch. So don’t worry, you’re not killing chickens when you are eating eggs. In fact, if the egg gets cold it will never even make a chicken. You can get a lot of protein from vegetables and this is where the bulk of your protein may come from, but there is a lot to be said for animal protein. Keep in mind that protein is the building block for life. Everything is made out of protein. Think about your bones- most people think that bones are made from calcium but that’s not exactly true. Bones are made from protein that has calcified. When you eat healthy fats your body produces hormones that cause those bones to calcify and strengthen. This is one reason women who have been on low fat diets for years and years have a higher risk of osteoporosis. Also, if you are still a vegetarian when you decide to have children I would strongly recommend you eat eggs. Sometimes the sons of women who don’t get enough animal protein during their pregnancy have a minor birth defect causing the end of their penis to be a little different, but it is easily corrected with a minor surgery. I’ve even seen this in women who were not vegetarians but just didn’t feel they could stomach meat when they were pregnant, but it is more common among women who are vegetarians.

[Virgil]

Yeah, but they could've been chickens!


How could they have been chickens? The eggs weren't fertilized.

[Virgil]

Also, if you are still a vegetarian when you decide to have children I would strongly recommend you eat eggs. Sometimes the sons of women who don’t get enough animal protein during their pregnancy have a minor birth defect causing the end of their penis to be a little different,

Well thank God my mother wasn't a vegetarian. :p :lol:

[Bakiryu]

:lol: So lucky I'm adopting. My son would kill me.

[higley]

Oh geez Virg. :D

If you stopped eating eggs, Bakiryu, would you not also have to discontinue with anything else made with eggs, like cakes, pastas, ice cream, mayonnaise, etc? I know there's egg substitutes but if you ask me "substitute" is probably a pretty generous term for it. ;)

[Bakiryu]

Oh geez Virg. :D

If you stopped eating eggs, Bakiryu, would you not also have to discontinue with anything else made with eggs, like cakes, pastas, ice cream, mayonnaise, etc? I know there's egg substitutes but if you ask me "substitute" is probably a pretty generous term for it. ;)

Well, there's a very slight chance of me getting any cake (:idea: care to make me some? :idea: ) or ice cream. I don't eat mayonnaise (I do put in on my hair, does that count?)

I guess I'm too picky with my food :sick:

And there are the energy shakes (you know: milk, raw egg yolks, sugar and vanilla, pour it on a vase and drink it down before going running) The energy shakes are important.

[Stanislaw]

Can you eat egg beaters? They're just egg whites. I've been digging those lately. You just pour some in your frying pan and you've got a tasty protein filled breakfast. I don't know about it Baki - I think you need to eat meat. it's brain food!

I can see your point though in not wanting to eat meat just because the slaughtering process is so disgusting. But if it's an egg I don't see how that counts. A person has to eat.

well, I suppose one could object to eggs because they are mass produced...unless you buy eggs straight from an ethical farmer...


I eat a lot, one full plate a day! plus, all the milk I drink for breakfast and lunch, and tea.

It makes me kinda sad thinking that my food could actually have been alive before I ate it.

milk could theoretically fall into the category of animal products/byproducts though... but, the egg...I suppose this depend on how you define life, and if you consider both parts of the reproductive process to be independantly alive...

[SleepyWitch]

But I don't regard eggs as animals. They are unfertilized eggs. They have no capability to develop into animals. So what's the problem with eating them? Plus they have a lot of nutrition. Nutrition that you are probably not getting because you are not eating meat.
I'm a veggie and I agree with Virgil. I eat eggs (I'm a bit ambivalent about it, but then you gotta eat something).
I think every veggie has to decide this question for himself. but if you don't want to eat eggs, you might just as well become a vegan because are eggs are found in many foods, e.g. pasta.

edit: ooops, higley arleady said that

[TheFifthElement]

milk could theoretically fall into the category of animal products/byproducts though... but, the egg...I suppose this depend on how you define life, and if you consider both parts of the reproductive process to be independantly alive...


This is a very perceptive point Stanislaw - most people don't realise that in order for a cow to produce milk she must first have a calf, and the male calves are put straight into the veal crate. There's an interesting bbc article about it here :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/food_matters/veal.shtml


Baki - why do you put mayonnaise on your hair? :sick:

[papayahed]

Can't you get enough nutricion from veggies? I've always had perfect health since I stopped eating meat.

Untrue!! Weren't you complaining about your mom making you eat fish because your anemic? That's not perfect health.

Maybe you need to do more research into vegetarian recipes and try to start adding other sources of protein into your diet. There's vast amounts of information out there and a crap ton of recipes.


http://www.vrg.org/

http://www.vegetariantimes.com/


I think you need to decide why your a vegetarian and go from there. If it's from the standpoint that killing animals is wrong (I'm assuming this is the case) really isn't anything wrong with eggs or milk for reasons already mentioned above. Of course you would probably have to get these product from free range farms...

[Bakiryu]

Untrue!! Weren't you complaining about your mom making you eat fish because your anemic? That's not perfect health.


Well, kind-of perfect health. I'm a bit forgetful. If only chocolate was nutritious.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/food_matters/veal.shtml


Oh Jesus. I've just read that article. What could we do? I hate veal but I drink lots of milk daily, if I didn't I would probably be thirsty all the time since I don't drink that much water.

But this is murder and it's inhumane. I couldn't stop drinking milk but.....

I have to think about this.



Baki - why do you put mayonnaise on your hair? :sick:

5th-element, if you put mayonaise on your hair, let it rest and then wash it out (rinse it well so it doesn't smell weird) with ice cold water, you'll get smooth, silky hair and perfect curls! It also hydrates your hair and puts back natural oils into it.

[Niamh]

Milk is milk Baki. You need the calcium and its other vitimins and minerals to maintain a healthy body. Like everything else too much milk can also make you sick. Also you shouldnt drink milk while eating your dinner as it reduces digestive activity in your tummy causing intergestion and upset tummys. My even restrict bowl movement.
Red Meat is a high Bio value protein thats nessesary in our diet. Eggs are 100% protein and it is recommended that we eat one a day. Beans and Pulses like lentils are also HBV, but lacks many of the other vits and mins that meat has. Fish is very good for you. The omega oils are good for maintaining a healthy brain. There are millions of site on the internet Baki that will tell you all of this info. Just have a look for yourself.

[Whifflingpin]

"I couldn't stop drinking milk but....."

If we all stopped drinking milk (and eating meat) then the female calves would all be slaughtered too, and farmers would simply grow crops.

Likewise, eating eggs (and chicken) does not deprive chickens of life, it ensures that there are chickens.

[Stanislaw]

Well, kind-of perfect health. I'm a bit forgetful. If only chocolate was nutritious.

Oh Jesus. I've just read that article. What could we do? I hate veal but I drink lots of milk daily, if I didn't I would probably be thirsty all the time since I don't drink that much water.

But this is murder and it's inhumane. I couldn't stop drinking milk but.....

I have to think about this.


If chocolate was nutritious...I'd be superman :D

re: milk - there is soy milk I suppose...but I don't know if that is the same


"I couldn't stop drinking milk but....."

If we all stopped drinking milk (and eating meat) then the female calves would all be slaughtered too, and farmers would simply grow crops.

Likewise, eating eggs (and chicken) does not deprive chickens of life, it ensures that there are chickens.

heh, an interesting, but more than likely true statement :D

[papayahed]

re: milk - there is soy milk I suppose...but I don't know if that is the same



The soy milk is fairly good, but I've never checked to see how it stacks up nutritionally.

[Stanislaw]

The soy milk is fairly good, but I've never checked to see how it stacks up nutritionally.

It seems sweeter tasting to me, but I really have no idea how it compares...

[Niamh]

I use to drink soya milk. I had to get the sweetened stuff because the regular stuff wasnt as nice.

[BulletproofDork]

Ewwwwww. :sick: I hate soy milk. :sick: :sick:

Anyway.

I'm a vegetarain too, but I do eat eggs. They aren't high on my list of favorite foods, but I do eat them (occasionly) for protein.
Have you tried tofu? Most people don't like it, but if it's flavored, it's actually pretty good.

[Stanislaw]

Ewwwwww. :sick: I hate soy milk. :sick: :sick:

Anyway.

I'm a vegetarain too, but I do eat eggs. They aren't high on my list of favorite foods, but I do eat them (occasionly) for protein.
Have you tried tofu? Most people don't like it, but if it's flavored, it's actually pretty good.

Tofu can be awesome in Hot-Pot

[Niamh]

i had a tofu and mango desert once. it was lovely!

Welcome back Stan!

[the silent x]

i don't understand why you think it is inhuman how the cows are slaughtered. if you mean by the large corporations, then i understand completely, but if your talking about real cow, then i would say your wrong. some farms will butcher cows, for a price.

what i mean is, they will be raised on the farm, not given any hormones, no antibiotics, no nothing, they will be fed on what grass they eat and not be touched by human hands until they are slaughtered. my family gets that kind of meat and it is absolutely hands down the best meat i have had.

if your talking about corporations, then i think that is disgusting. given hormones and forced to eat night and day, then given to a slaughter house where you might be getting a little more than just the cow (cannibals).

but i am no vegetarian and i don't think i could be one.

[Stanislaw]

i had a tofu and mango desert once. it was lovely!

Welcome back Stan!

Thanks! :)


i don't understand why you think it is inhuman how the cows are slaughtered. if you mean by the large corporations, then i understand completely, but if your talking about real cow, then i would say your wrong. some farms will butcher cows, for a price.

what i mean is, they will be raised on the farm, not given any hormones, no antibiotics, no nothing, they will be fed on what grass they eat and not be touched by human hands until they are slaughtered. my family gets that kind of meat and it is absolutely hands down the best meat i have had.

if your talking about corporations, then i think that is disgusting. given hormones and forced to eat night and day, then given to a slaughter house where you might be getting a little more than just the cow (cannibals).

but i am no vegetarian and i don't think i could be one.

I agree, I'm not a vegitarian myself, but I buy 1 buffalo a year from a a small farm - farmer who treats his animals quite naturally...and buffalo meat is 100 times better then cow meat!

[bazarov]

I know this is going to sound really stupid/or shallow

but since I'm a vegetarian my mother has been making lots of eggs lately, instead of meat.

But eggs are animal products, so isn't me eating then actually animal murder?

Should I actually eat eggs? Or am I going against my beliefs every time I have a piece of cake?

Help!


There are two kind of you with strange perception on food::lol:
1. vegetarians - people who don't it meat
2. vegans - people who don't eat any animal product-meat, eggs, milk, cheese, etc.

Avoiding eggs won't hurt your vegetarian reputation.

[cactus]

If you have to be really technical then plants are living things too. They eat, breathe, age and expire like every other living things.

Hope this doesn't put you off veggies as well.

Cactus

[papayahed]

There are two kind of you with strange perception on food::lol:
1. vegetarians - people who don't it meat
2. vegans - people who don't eat any animal product-meat, eggs, milk, cheese, etc.

Avoiding eggs won't hurt your vegetarian reputation.

I thought vegetarians didn't eat animals and animal by products?

[bazarov]

I thought vegetarians didn't eat animals and animal by products?

Nope, only meat. Avoiding everything is vegans MV.

[papayahed]

Nope, only meat. Avoiding everything is vegans MV.


That doesn't make sense. The by products of "meat" contain the same hormones and what have you as the actual meat, and the animals are treated just as inhumanely so why would someone that claims to be a vegetarian eat the by products?

[CrazyDiamond]

Ive been vegetarian since I was six (I'm almost seventeen now - woot) and turned vegan when I was nine. It just depends. Vegetarian implies that you do not eat meat, whereas vegans do not eat/wear animal products. I.e. some vegetarians eat fish.

I think it's okay if it's Free Range eggs, though. *ponders*.

=]

[CrazyDiamond]

If you have to be really technical then plants are living things too. They eat, breathe, age and expire like every other living things.

Hope this doesn't put you off veggies as well.

Cactus

Plants don't suffer though. They are living to an extent. They have living cells etc, but they cannot feel. - Same reason some vegetarians eat fish.

[bazarov]

That doesn't make sense. The by products of "meat" contain the same hormones and what have you as the actual meat, and the animals are treated just as inhumanely so why would someone that claims to be a vegetarian eat the by products?

For eating meat, you have to kill cow. But for milk, you don't have to kill her. Even better, cow could die without being out-milked( I really don't know how to say it on English:lol: ). So vegetarians don't have problems with that.


I.e. some vegetarians eat fish.


In Western civilizations, fish is very often considered not to be a meat because of low amount of blood in her body. Fish is water animal so it's also considered to be clean animal, opposite of pigs, cows, etc. One of Christians principle is not to eat meat on Friday's; instead of it many of them are eating fish(in restaurants it's normally to have fish on Friday's menu.)

[Niamh]

Oh god not the plants have feelings thing again!:sick:

I'm sure plants think we dont have feelings when they observe us ever day. They probably see us as weird "plants" that do weird things ever day!:p
We dont truely understand plants, so it is not for us to decide whether or not they do have feelings etc, we should just assume that they do because we do, even though we have different Biological makeup. Animals are alive, Plants are alive, Animals feel pain so we should assume plants do to.

Personally i wouldnt want to cross and angry Venus fly trap!:p

lets leave it at that. This is after all a thread about whether or not Baki should eat eggs and dairy(if i'm not mistaken) not a discussion about plants and their biology etc.:)

[papayahed]

For eating meat, you have to kill cow. But for milk, you don't have to kill her. Even better, cow could die without being out-milked( I really don't know how to say it on English:lol: ). So vegetarians don't have problems with that.


But the milk would also contain hormones and diseases that the cow would have so if your a vegetarian for health reasons this defeats the purpose doesn't it?

If your a vegetarian for animals rights reasons how is it ok to drink milk when Diary cows aren't treated well and a kept in small pens?

[Niamh]

yes but the milk is pasturised to kill off all the bad bacterias etc.

Baz i think you mean that if a cow is under milked/ or not milked at all it could die.:)
So see vegetarians, its good to drink milk.:thumbs_up

[bazarov]

But the milk would also contain hormones and diseases that the cow would have so if your a vegetarian for health reasons this defeats the purpose doesn't it?
No, meat and milk are passing through strict controls, no worry for your health.


If your a vegetarian for animals rights reasons how is it ok to drink milk when Diary cows aren't treated well and a kept in small pens?
Because your vegetarian, not vegan. If it's not meat, main purpose of killing animals; then it's OK; no matter of from where that milk is. That probably why people became vegans; higher level of animal lovers.



I don't have problems with animals, I eat everything! But I find vegetarianism totally hipocritic. Vegans OK, I can find some logic and disagree with it but I don't see any sense in vegetarianism.

[Virgil]

But the milk would also contain hormones and diseases that the cow would have so if your a vegetarian for health reasons this defeats the purpose doesn't it?

If your a vegetarian for animals rights reasons how is it ok to drink milk when Diary cows aren't treated well and a kept in small pens?

What about pesticides on fruits and vegetables? I'm not privy to any measured risks, but you can get paranoid over everything. For all i know eating an over abundance of fruits and vegetables may have a higher probablity of cancer. People are eating meat and drinking milk. I don't see why people are paranoid one way or the other.

I've said this on another similar thread. Human beings are designed to eat meat. Compare yourself to a sheep or a horse. We have the teeth for it, we have the digestive system for it. To be a vegetarian is unnatural. You are missing out on nutrients. I posted a web site on that thread that showed that vegetarians might actually have a shorter life span than one with a balanced diet. The health benefits of vegetarianism is specious. That is not to say we don't eat too much meat in the US and that more servings of fruits and vegetables would do us well. What I beleive tends to do us the most harm is the huge proportion of carbohydrates and sugars (breads, chocolate, cakes, and candy) that modern people eat. That level of carbs and sugars is unnatural. Plus our physical activity level is way less than it should be.

[papayahed]

No, meat and milk are passing through strict controls, no worry for your health.

Because your vegetarian, not vegan. If it's not meat, main purpose of killing animals; then it's OK; no matter of from where that milk is. That probably why people became vegans; higher level of animal lovers.

I don't have problems with animals, I eat everything! But I find vegetarianism totally hipocritic. Vegans OK, I can find some logic and disagree with it but I don't see any sense in vegetarianism.

People become vegetarians for a wide variety or reasons. If your not a vegetarian why are you speaking for them?


What about pesticides on fruits and vegetables? I'm not privy to any measured risks, but you can get paranoid over everything. For all i know eating an over abundance of fruits and vegetables may have a higher probablity of cancer. People are eating meat and drinking milk. I don't see why people are paranoid one way or the other.

I've said this on another similar thread. Human beings are designed to eat meat. Compare yourself to a sheep or a horse. We have the teeth for it, we have the digestive system for it. To be a vegetarian is unnatural. You are missing out on nutrients. I posted a web site on that thread that showed that vegetarians might actually have a shorter life span than one with a balanced diet. The health benefits of vegetarianism is specious. That is not to say we don't eat too much meat in the US and that more servings of fruits and vegetables would do us well. What I beleive tends to do us the most harm is the huge proportion of carbohydrates and sugars (breads, chocolate, cakes, and candy) that modern people eat. That level of carbs and sugars is unnatural. Plus our physical activity level is way less than it should be

I didn't really want to defend vegetarianism, but your statements are false. It is possible to get all the nutrients necessary from a plant based diet check out the USDA website it has a wealth of in formation relating to the vegetarian lifestyle. The health benefits are far from specious, there are countless studies done by reputable organizations that show the benefits of a plant based diet.

[Niamh]

She's right Virg you can. But you have to balance the food in your diet better.

[Virgil]

Listed as a myth:

Meat-Eaters Have Higher Rates of Heart And Kidney Disease, Cancer, Obesity and Osteoporosis Than Vegetarians

Such stupendous claims are hard to reconcile with historical and anthropological facts. All of the diseases mentioned are primarily 20th century occurrences, yet people have been eating meat and animal fat for thousands of years.

Further, there are several native peoples around the world (the Innu, Masai, Swiss, Greeks, etc.) whose traditional diets are very rich in animal products, but do not suffer from the above-mentioned maladies (18). This shows that other factors besides animal foods are at work in these diseases.

Several studies have supposedly shown that meat consumption is the cause of heart disease, cancer and bone loss, but such studies, honestly evaluated, show no such thing (19).

For example, the studies that supposedly proved that meat consumption among the Innuit caused high rates of osteoporosis, failed to note other dietary factors that contributed to bone loss (and to the other chronic diseases listed in myth #5). Things such as refined sugar consumption, alcoholism and a junk food consumption equalled more bone loss were not done with real meat but with fractionated protein powders (20).
Certainly, when protein is consumed in such an unnatural fashion, separated from the fat-soluble nutrients required for its absorption and assimilation, it will lead to problems. Because of this, the current use of fat-free protein powders as "food supplements", and low-fat or non-fat dairy products should be avoided. Trimming off visible fat from meats and removing duck and chicken skin before eating should also be discouraged.

Despite claims that studies have shown that meat consumption increased the risk for heart disease (21), their authors actually found the opposite. For example, in a 1984 analysis of a 1978 study of Seventh Day Adventists (who are largely vegetarian), H. A. Kahn concluded, "Although our results add some substantial facts to the diet-disease question, we recognize how remote they are from establishing, for example, that men who frequently eat meat or women who rarely eat salad are thereby shortening their lives" (21). A similar conclusion was reached by D.A. Snowden (21). Despite these startling admissions, the studies nevertheless concluded the exact opposite and urged people to reduce animal foods from their diets.

Further, both of these studies threw out certain dietary data that clearly showed no connection between eggs, cheese, whole milk, and fat attached to meat (all high fat and cholesterol foods) and heart disease. Statistician Dr. Russel Smith concluded, "In effect the Kahn [and Snowden] study is yet another example of negative results which are massaged and misinterpreted to support the politically correct assertions that vegetarians live longer lives." When all of the data are taken into account, the actual differences of heart disease between vegetarians and non-vegetarians in these studies was less than 1%: hardly a significant amount (22).

It should be noted here that Seventh Day Adventists are often studied in population analyses to prove that a vegetarian diet is healthier and is associated with a lower risk for heart disease and cancer (but see the last paragraph in this section). While it is true that most members of this Christian denomination do not eat meat, they also do not smoke, drink alcohol, or drink coffee or tea, all of which may be factors in promoting cancer and heart disease (23).

The Mormons are a religious group often overlooked in vegetarian studies. Although their Church urges moderation, Mormons do not abstain from meat. Mormonism's founder, Joseph Smith, declared a diet devoid of animal products as "not of God." As with the Adventists, Mormons avoid tobacco, alcohol, and caffeine. Despite being meat eaters, a study of Utah Mormons showed they had a 22% lower rate for cancer in general and a 34% lower mortality for colon cancer than the US average (24). A study of Puerto Ricans, who eat large amounts of fatty pork, nevertheless revealed very low rates of colon and breast cancer (25). Similar results can be adduced to demonstrate that meat consumption by itself does not correlate with cancer, heart disease, osteoporosis, kidney disease, or obesity (26). Obviously, other factors are at work.

It is usually claimed that vegetarians have lower cancer rates than meat-eaters, but a 1994 study of California Seventh Day Adventists (who are largely vegetarian) showed that, while they did have lower rates of some cancers (e.g., breast), they had significantly higher rates of several others (brain, skin, uterine, cervical and ovarian)! (27)
http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vegetarian-diet-issues-disease.htm
Numbers are references in the article.

[Virgil]

No you cannot get all nutrients from strictly vegtables:


Can The Body Convert Omega-6 Fatty Acids Into Omega-3 Fatty Acids As It Needs?

Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids are polyunsaturated fats of which two, linolenic (an omega-3) and linoleic (an omega 6), are essential to human life and must be obtained from food as the body cannot synthesise them. Although very small amounts of omega 3 linolenic acid are found in whole grains and dark green leafy vegetables, it is principally found in animal foods (especially fish and eggs), as well as flax seed oil. Omega 6 linoleic acid is mostly found in vegetables, but small amounts are present in certain animal fats.

To assuage vegans who fear they may not get enough omega 3 linolenic acid, some vegetarian sources assert that the body can simply convert excess omega 6 linoleic acid into omega 3 linolenic acid, and other omega 3 fatty acids such as EPA and DHA, two fatty acids intimately involved in the health of the brain and immune system.

Renowned lipid biochemist Dr Mary Enig, of the University of Maryland, and other authorities have shown that the body cannot change the omega number of fatty acids.

The body can change the fatty acid's degree of saturation and also its molecular length, but not its omega number (12). In other words, omega 6 fatty acids can only be converted into other omega 6 fatty acids; omega 3s only into other omega 3s.

Again, I have seen the results of this misinformation in my practice. I've had several patients of Northern European descent with severe mental and immune problems caused by a lack of EPA and DHA, two omega-3 fatty acids not found in plant foods (DHA is found in small amounts in some algae). People native to warmer climates in the world can manufacture these fatty acids from other omega-3s, but those of Northern European or Innuit descent cannot. Since their ancestors ate so much EPA- and DHA-rich fish, their bodies eventually lost the ability to manufacture these fatty acids (13). For these people, vegetarianism is impossible; they must consume either eggs or fish in order to survive.

There is also a very real danger from consuming too many omega-6 fatty acids, principally found in vegetables. The body requires both omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids. However, when the body's cells are overloaded with omega-6s, their ability to utilise the omega-3 is inhibited (14).

Chronically low levels of omega-3 fatty acids are associated with higher cancer rates and immune dysfunction. Excessive levels of omega-6 fatty acids are also strongly correlated with a high incidence of cardiovascular disease (as is excessive consumption of refined sugar and trans-fatty acids) [15].

http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vegetarian-diet-issues-fatty-acids.htm

[bazarov]

People become vegetarians for a wide variety or reasons. If your not a vegetarian why are you speaking for them?



I am not attacking them or defending them, it's their choice what will they eat. I am just explaining you difference between vegans and vegetarians and had answered on your question. I see that there are many vegetarians on this forum, they don't need me to speak for them.:)

[bazarov]

Baz i think you mean that if a cow is under milked/ or not milked at all it could die.:)
So see vegetarians, its good to drink milk.:thumbs_up

Sorry, I haven't see your post till now!:p Yes, that's exactly what I meant. New word in my dictionary : milked :D

[Whifflingpin]

"New word in my dictionary : milked "
That good, now remember - if you water a cow you put water in - if you milk a cow you take milk out. (Of course, if you water a plant, you pour water on it, and if you milk your tea you put milk in it - simple)

[papayahed]

I don't have problems with animals, I eat everything! But I find vegetarianism totally hipocritic. Vegans OK, I can find some logic and disagree with it but I don't see any sense in vegetarianism.


I am not attacking them or defending them, it's their choice what will they eat. I am just explaining you difference between vegans and vegetarians and had answered on your question. I see that there are many vegetarians on this forum, they don't need me to speak for them.:)

That could be seen as an attack.

[papayahed]

People native to warmer climates in the world can manufacture these fatty acids from other omega-3s, but those of Northern European or Innuit descent cannot........Since their ancestors ate so much EPA- and DHA-rich fish, their bodies eventually lost the ability to manufacture these fatty acids (13). For these people, vegetarianism is impossible; they must consume either eggs or fish in order to survive.



So based on the fact that Northern European Inuits can't manufacture DHA and EPA , which they originally had (proving that vegetarianism isn't unnatural), no one should follow a vegetarian diet?

Flax seed oil is 6 times richer in omega 3 then any fish oil and most people can convert omega 3 to the necessary nutirnets.

Your links are written by a doctor that sells fish oil on his website, sounds like he has an agenda. I think I'll stick with the USDA.

[bazarov]

That could be seen as an attack.

I am sorry, I just said my opinion, didn't refer to anyone or anything. I can respect their opinion without agreeing with them.

[papayahed]

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vegetarian_foods.html

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/59117.php

http://globalphilosophy.blogspot.com/2006/06/health-benefits-of-vegetarian-diet.html


From WHF website (vegetarianism isn't a new fad):

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=diet&dbid=6 :


Throughout human history, advocates of vegetarianism have employed moral and spiritual arguments to express their disdain for eating the flesh of animals. Ancient writers such as Ovid and Plutarch deplored the killing of innocent creatures for food. Plutarch stated: "I am astonished to think what appetite first induced man to taste of a dead carcass or what motive could suggest the notion of nourishing himself with the flesh of animals which he saw, just before, bleating, bellowing, walking, and looking about them." The Greek philosopher Pythagoras, who lived towards the end of the 6th century BC, argued that the flesh of beasts contaminated and brutalized the soul. In recognition of Pythagoras' commitment, vegetarians were known as Pythagoreans until the mid-19th century. Other writers have associated vegetarianism with spiritual enlightenment. According to the 17th century English vegetarian Thomas Tryon, "...by thoroughly cleansing the outward court of terrestrial nature, it opens the windows of the inward senses of the soul." (Whorton, 1994) For these reasons, a variety of religions, including Brahminism, Buddhism, Hinduism and the Seventh Day Adventists encourage followers to abstain from eating meat.

After all this research I'd be a convert for sure if cheeseburgers weren't so darn tasty.

[TheFifthElement]

Even better, cow could die without being out-milked( I really don't know how to say it on English:lol: ).

A cow wouldn't die if it wasn't milked, it is natural for the milk to stop if there is no external simulus to keep the milk producing i.e. a calf or a milking machine. Cows don't die if their calf does, they just stop producing milk - just as women do once they cease breastfeeding.

The process of continued milking of cows is unnatural. That being said, if you examine in any kind of detail what happens to result in the food we eat you wouldn't eat at all. Everyone has lines they won't cross, for some people it's eating meat, for others it's all animal products (as in vegans), for others it's just one thing or another, for example I won't eat oysters, but have no qualms eating meat or drinking milk. Chocolate contains traces of insect matter (due to infestation issues with cocoa), and in some countries they eat insects as a treat or delicacy. What you eat is a matter of personal choice, simple as that, however, if you make such choices it's best to ensure those choices are fully informed.

[Virgil]

So based on the fact that Northern European Inuits can't manufacture DHA and EPA , which they originally had (proving that vegetarianism isn't unnatural), no one should follow a vegetarian diet?

Flax seed oil is 6 times richer in omega 3 then any fish oil and most people can convert omega 3 to the necessary nutirnets.

Your links are written by a doctor that sells fish oil on his website, sounds like he has an agenda. I think I'll stick with the USDA.

As you wish. USDA have changed their policy numerous times, as recently as one or two years ago. If they were always correct they would not need to change. How many times in my life time have they changed their opinion on salt?

I maintain the human body is designed for a reason to digest meat. We are carniverous animals. Can anyone name a few world class athletes that are vegetarians? Can anyone show me any data that vegetarians live longer?

From an Oxford site, basically sympathetic to vegetarianism:

A recent re-analysis of mortality data from the two British studies found no differences in overall death rates between vegetarian and non-vegetarian participants. The researchers concluded that the low mortality of British vegetarians compared with the general population "may be attributed to non-dietary lifestyle factors such as a low prevalence of smoking and a generally high socio-economic status, or to aspects of the diet other than the avoidance of meat and fish".

A more positive outcome for vegetarians was found in a recent analysis of data from the Adventist Health Study which predicted life expectancy in Seventh-day Adventists following different behaviour patterns. The researchers found that a combination of different lifestyle choices could influence life expectancy by as much as 10 years. Among the lifestyle choices investigated, a vegetarian diet was estimated to confer an extra 1½ to 2 years of life. The researchers concluded that "the life expectancies of California Adventist men and women are higher than those of any other well-described natural population" at 78.5 years for men and 82.3 years for women. The estimated life expectancies of vegetarian California Adventists were 80.2 years for men and 84.8 years for women. Other beneficial lifestyle choices included high nut consumption and a high level of exercise.

In conclusion

vegetarians have low mortality compared with the general population
much of this benefit is attributable to non-dietary lifestyle factors such as the avoidance of smoking and a high socio-economic status
vegetarians have similar mortality to comparable non-vegetarians, although a vegetarian diet may confer an additional 1-2 years of life (at least among US Adventists).
Of course, life expectancy is not the only measure of health status, and other studies have suggested that vegetarians may enjoy a number of health benefits including being generally slimmer and having lower blood cholesterol levels than non-vegetarians.

So, should you be a vegetarian for health reasons? When asked this question, the Nobel-prize winning author Isaac Bashevis Singer replied: "Yes, for the health of the chicken! "
http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html

The article mentions the California Adventist study that shows slightly longer life expectacy for vegetarians. That is the only group of vegetarian people that have demonstrated longer life expectacy, and as the article I posted earlier suggests that if its only for one group there are probably other factors which are being masked.

[papayahed]

Can anyone name a few world class athletes that are vegetarians?

It's not all atheletes, but here ya go:

http://www.famousveggie.com/peoplenew.cfm :


Albert Schweitzer Humanitarian vegetarian Bio
Albert Einstein scientist vegetarian Bio
Andreas Cahling Mr.International Bodybuilder vegetarian
Andrew Reynolds pro skateboarder vegetarian
Anthony Peeler Minnesota Timberwolves vegetarian
Benjamin Franklin scientist vegetarian
Benjamin Spock Medical Doctor vegan Bio
Bill Pearl Bodybuilder vegetarian
Bill Manetti powerlifting champion vegetarian
Bille Jean King Tennis champion vegetarian
Brad Staba pro skateboarder vegetarian
Brendan Brazier ironman triathlete vegan
Brian Anderson pro skateboarder vegetarian Bio
Brian Sumner pro skateboarder vegetarian
Captain & Tennille Musical duo vegetarian Bio
Carl Lewis Olympic Track Star vegan
Charles Darwin British naturalist vegetarian
Chris Lambert pro skateboarder vegetarian
Clara Barton American Red Cross vegetarian Bio
Debbie Lawrence 5k record holder vegetarian
Desmond Howard Washington Redskins vegetarian
Dick Gregory runner fruitarian
Ed Templeton pro skateboarder vegan Bio
Edwin Moses Olympic champion vegetarian
Epicurus Philosopher vegetarian
Forest Kirby pro skateboarder vegetarian
Geoff Rowley pro skateboarder vegan
George Bernard Shaw Playwright vegetarian
H.G. Wells British author vegetarian Bio
Hank Aaron Baseball player vegetarian
Henry Ford ford motor company vegetarian
Henry David Thoreau Author vegetarian
Jamie Thomas pro skateboarder vegan Bio
Jen O'Brien pro skateboarder vegetarian
Jim Kaat baseball player vegetarian
Joe Namath football player vegetarian
John Wesley founder Methodist church vegetarian
John Salley Toronto Raptors vegetarian
Killer Kowalski Wrestler vegetarian
Laban Pheidas proskater vegetarian
Lawrence Phillips Football player(49ers) vegetarian
Lenny Kravitz Musician vegetarian
Leo Tolstoy Russian writer vegetarian
Leonardo da Vinci artist vegetarian Bio
Leroy Burrell Olympic champion vegetarian
Lucy Stephens tri-athlete vegan
Mahavira . Jain Religion vegetarian
Martina Navratilova tennis player vegan
Mary Tyler Moore Actress vegetarian Bio
Matt Field pro skateboarder vegetarian
Mike Manzoori pro skateboarder vegetarian
Mohandas Ghandi humanitarian vegan
Moses Itkonen pro skateboarder vegan
Murray Rose Olympic swimmer vegetarian
Pat Reeves power lifter vegan
Peter Burwash Tennis champion vegan
Plutarch Philosopher vegetarian
Pythagoras of Samos Greek Philosopher vegetarian
Rick Mc Crank pro skateboarder vegetarian
Robert Parnish center(bulls) vegetarian
Robert Cheeke Amateur Bodybuilder vegan
Romy Korz Ballerina vegetarian
Ruth Heidrich 3 time Ironman vegan
Sally Eastall Marathon runner vegan
Sergei Trudnowski Pro skateboarder vegan
Sir Isaac Newton Scientist vegetarian Bio
St. Frances of Assisi saint vegetarian
Stan Price world record bench press vegetarian
Steve Martin Comedian/actor vegetarian Bio
Steve Berra proskater vegetarian
Surya Bonaly French figure skater vegetarian
Susan B. Anthony womens suffrage vegetarian Bio
Sy Sperling Hair club for men vegetarian
Terry "Geezer" Butler Musician vegetarian
Tony LaRussa Baseball Manager vegetarian
Tonya Kay Professional Dancer vegan
Vincent Van Gogh Painter vegetarian Bio


I've found many valid links to valid studies showing the benefits of a vegetarian diet, so now the USDA isn't a valid source? What about the 5 others I provided?

Your article simply states that the life expectancy isn't much different then that for non vegetarians but why is that even an issue, the article also goes on to say that vegetarians have lower colesterol and are slimmer are you just going to ignore that part?

[Koa]

I maintain the human body is designed for a reason to digest meat. We are carniverous animals.

To be picky, we are omnivorous no? Carnivorous (as I believe the spelling is) would mean we only eat meat... ;)

And I agree with those who say it's a matter of choice which lines you won't cross and I don't see the point in convincing others that eating/not eating meat is wrong. I sometimes feel sorry for a few seconds about the animals when I eat meat, but it would be such a huge effort for me not to eat any meat (let alone all the other stuff vegans don't eat), that it'd be easier to kill me. While I believe that for most veggies that is not a big effort (and I won't stop mentioning those who just don't like meat and become veggies because it's more fashionable to say that than to argue with your mum cos you won't eat your steak).

I've had a friend over for a few days and he's a veggie, we went out to eat a couple of times and choosing the place was almost easier than with my non-veggie friends... :lol: It wasn't that hard to plan our meals, but he thankfully respected the fact that I was having meat. I seriously can't help it...

As for the original dilemma, well as it has been said it's your choice, either become vegan or eat the eggs.

I've even seen "vegetarians" eating fish :lol: When people are serious... :lol:

[Virgil]

It's not all atheletes, but here ya go:

http://www.famousveggie.com/peoplenew.cfm :




I've found many valid links to valid studies showing the benefits of a vegetarian diet, so now the USDA isn't a valid source? What about the 5 others I provided?

Your article simply states that the life expectancy isn't much different then that for non vegetarians but why is that even an issue, the article also goes on to say that vegetarians have lower colesterol and are slimmer are you just going to ignore that part?

Hahaha, ok you made a good point. Actually while I was at the gym just about an hour ago it dawned on me. If there is no difference in life expectancy then while it may not be healthier to be a vegetarian it can't be worse. So I retract it. I guess it's about the same. So while I don't think there are net health benefits I guess its not as big a detriment as I percieved. But I still think it's unnatural. Humans were designed to eat meat.

[Bakiryu]

Humans were designed to eat meat.

But meat is so gross-tasting too :sick: I'd rather have a good salad.

[BulletproofDork]

But meat is so gross-tasting too :sick: I'd rather have a good salad.

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


God did say that animals were made for man's own use, but meat is so . . . bleh!



Chocolate is much better. :p

[Koa]

AHAHAH this soooo proves my point about veggies being veggies because they don't like meat and not for any noble reason...


Salad is like eating grass... I force myself to eat it...

[Petrarch's Love]

edited by poster

[manolia]

AHAHAH this soooo proves my point about veggies being veggies because they don't like meat and not for any noble reason...


:lol: :lol: I so agree with that :lol: :lol:
I don't like the taste of meat, but i force myself to eat it nevertheless once a week (or twice) ;)

[Bakiryu]

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


God did say that animals were made for man's own use, but meat is so . . . bleh!



Chocolate is much better. :p



Ooooh, I like teh way you think! :p


AHAHAH this soooo proves my point about veggies being veggies because they don't like meat and not for any noble reason...


Salad is like eating grass... I force myself to eat it...

Hey I have my noble reasons! I force myself to stay away from the only meat product i like (Bacon) even though i really want to eat it.
Every time my parents cook bacon I exercise!

that and I don't like food that bleeds (I liack the cooking skills, trust me!) :alien:

[symphony]

My father, the wisest sage of all time to come, has become a vegan a year ago. And he doesnt eat ANYthing ranging from eggs to cake and even biscuits at times!! We're always running out of food that he wont frown at!
So please dont do this to ur family Baki. :(

oh and plus- u can NOT do without cakes trust me! :nod: They're the inseparable part of nirvana!

[Bakiryu]

My father, the wisest sage of all time to come, has become a vegan a year ago. And he doesnt eat ANYthing ranging from eggs to cake and even biscuits at times!! We're always running out of food that he wont frown at!
So please dont do this to ur family Baki. :(

oh they wouldn't mind, I usually do the shopping with my parents so I could just buy stuff.

that and my parents work late. they wouldn't notice unless I was starving unto death or something :p

[SleepyWitch]

AHAHAH this soooo proves my point about veggies being veggies because they don't like meat and not for any noble reason...


i like the taste of meat and fish but I'm a veggie anyway.



If your a vegetarian for animals rights reasons how is it ok to drink milk when Diary cows aren't treated well and a kept in small pens?

very good point papaya.that's another ethical dilemma, actually. well, I can only speak for myself, but I try to buy organic milk or yogurth whenever my budget allows it and once I've got a job and am 'rich' I'll buy only organic milk. it tastes much better anyway :)