And then

[PrinceMyshkin]

A narrative imperative rules our lives
or how we shape them.
There is birth

and then?
There are the stings of childhood injustice

and then?
There is love

and then?
There is marriage and children

and then?
There is something like success
in our careers.

and then?
There is death

and then...





Jerry Newman © 22Oct07

[blp]

Dunno. It's a bit...well, my life's not exactly been like this.

Have you seen David Lynch's Inland Empire? I saw it last night, so it's no my mind. Sort of relates to this, but I don't want to say how because it would ruin it for people who haven't seen it.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I have two styles of presenting myself:
show-offy
and sincere, but sometimes
not even I can tell
which is which.

[stormy sky]

It seems pesimistic,it ignores all the lovely little moments that make life worth it,
and thanks to them "and then" is something we look forward to.
It's a nice one,though I like some of your other stuff more.

[Granny5]

I have two styles of presenting myself:
show-offy
and sincere, but sometimes
not even I can tell
which is which.



I guess I've only seen one side.:lol:

[Sweets America]

Yes, like the others, I don't think it is my favorite poem of yours. There is something that disturbs me in it, the fact that there is something in me that cries 'No! I don't want my life to be as simple as that!' and maybe this is the force of your poem, actually, the fact that it makes me react this way.

[Sweets America]

I guess I've only seen one side.:lol:

Ehehehehe!!! :lol:
I liked this second little poem, it was quite intriguing and made me think.

[ampoule]

A narrative imperative rules our lives
or how we shape them.
There is birth

and then?
There are the stings of childhood injustice

and then?
There is love

and then?
There is marriage and children

and then?
There is something like success
in our careers.

and then?
There is death

and then...





Jerry Newman © 22Oct07


Freaky. I woke up thinking about something very similar to your thoughts this morning, though I pretty much never think about "and then...".

I think your poem is an excellent way for us to fill in the blanks, to list under the headings all the details.

If the word injustice had not been included with childhood, the poem might not have seemed so pessimistic. That word set the tone.

[firefangled]

The prodigal poet returns, if only in the early morning spaces. I miss being here more often.

Prince, I wish sometimes my life had been this way. I could not tell you by what imperative I am where I am now.

As I have said before there is a nobility about everything that rolls off your keyboard and some are more noble than poetic.

I think each of these lines has some grit inside waiting for details of how they came to be. Is there an imperative anymore? This is a high level survey and I would not stop at death...because life doesn't stop there.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I guess I've only seen one side.:lol:

Sure you were looking at me and not in the mirror?

[Granny5]

Sure you were looking at me and not in the mirror?

Be nice....remember, I am someone's Granny.:lol:

[TheFifthElement]

A narrative imperative rules our lives
or how we shape them.
There is birth

and then?
There are the stings of childhood injustice

and then?
There is love

and then?
There is marriage and children

and then?
There is something like success
in our careers.

and then?
There is death

and then...





Jerry Newman © 22Oct07


An interesting thought. I remember thinking something very similar when I decided that I wouldn't have any more children, and I felt depressed for days afterwards wondering what I would do next, that perhaps the next big event I had to look forward to was death. I wonder if this is more true for women, who are brought up with the idealised picture (re-emphasised by literature - particularly the classics) that the primary goal in life is to get married and have children. No one really examines (or cares) what happens after that. I spent those days wondering if my life was over, and then I picked up a pen and started writing poetry, and that is how I re-discovered all those wonderful little events that go unnoticed because of the big ones.

A bleak picture, perhaps reflecting a momentarily bleak frame of mind?

[Granny5]

An interesting thought. I remember thinking something very similar when I decided that I wouldn't have any more children, and I felt depressed for days afterwards wondering what I would do next, that perhaps the next big event I had to look forward to was death. I wonder if this is more true for women, who are brought up with the idealised picture (re-emphasised by literature - particularly the classics) that the primary goal in life is to get married and have children. No one really examines (or cares) what happens after that. I spent those days wondering if my life was over, and then I picked up a pen and started writing poetry, and that is how I re-discovered all those wonderful little events that go unnoticed because of the big ones.

A bleak picture, perhaps reflecting a momentarily bleak frame of mind?

Interesting thought, Fifth. I too wondered what I would do with my life after my last child was born. I wonder why I haven't read anything about that time in a woman's life. Maybe it's out there and I just haven't stumbled on it.

[TheFifthElement]

Interesting thought, Fifth. I too wondered what I would do with my life after my last child was born. I wonder why I haven't read anything about that time in a woman's life. Maybe it's out there and I just haven't stumbled on it.

There must be, mustn't there? I'll have a look around later on and if I find anything I will post it.

Perhaps we should write something Granny?

[Sweets America]

An interesting thought. I remember thinking something very similar when I decided that I wouldn't have any more children, and I felt depressed for days afterwards wondering what I would do next, that perhaps the next big event I had to look forward to was death. I wonder if this is more true for women, who are brought up with the idealised picture (re-emphasised by literature - particularly the classics) that the primary goal in life is to get married and have children. No one really examines (or cares) what happens after that. I spent those days wondering if my life was over, and then I picked up a pen and started writing poetry, and that is how I re-discovered all those wonderful little events that go unnoticed because of the big ones.

A bleak picture, perhaps reflecting a momentarily bleak frame of mind?

It is strange, I have never thought that my goal in life would be to get married and have children. Well, I resented getting married before because it seeemed so common to me, like something you did just to do like everyone else. I don't know, I just wanted my love to be shown in a more personal way. Now, I am ok with marriage, but with kids, well, I still have reservations. But that's another problem.
I think my goal in life is just to try and find happiness, and fulfill my personal dreams, not things that society would like me to do to fit in.

[SleepyWitch]

Interesting thought, Fifth. I too wondered what I would do with my life after my last child was born. I wonder why I haven't read anything about that time in a woman's life. Maybe it's out there and I just haven't stumbled on it.


There must be, mustn't there? I'll have a look around later on and if I find anything I will post it.

Perhaps we should write something Granny?

The Djin in the Nightingale's Eye by A.S. Byatt. it's about a middle-aged lit professor whose husband cheated on her (if I remember correctly) and now she's trying to figure out who she is and what to do with her life. It's set in Turkey because she's attending a conference about fairy tales there and there are lots of fairy tale elements (e.g. the Djin). not too bad.

please do write a book/ story Granny and Fifth. It can't be worse than Byatt :)

[PrinceMyshkin]

It is strange, I have never thought that my goal in life would be to get married and have children. Well, I resented getting married before because it seemed so common to me, like something you did just to do like everyone else. I don't know, I just wanted my love to be shown in a more personal way. Now, I am ok with marriage, but with kids, well, I still have reservations. But that's another problem.
I think my goal in life is just to try and find happiness, and fulfill my personal dreams, not things that society would like me to do to fit in.

I don't think that happiness can be sought but rather that it may come in the pursuit of some other, more tangible goal.

[Sweets America]

I don't think that happiness can be sought but rather that it may come in the pursuit of some other, more tangible goal.

Well yes, I meant I would try to find happiness in the things that personally matter to me, the tangible things I want to do with my life. :)

[TheFifthElement]

It is strange, I have never thought that my goal in life would be to get married and have children. Well, I resented getting married before because it seeemed so common to me, like something you did just to do like everyone else. I don't know, I just wanted my love to be shown in a more personal way. Now, I am ok with marriage, but with kids, well, I still have reservations. But that's another problem.
I think my goal in life is just to try and find happiness, and fulfill my personal dreams, not things that society would like me to do to fit in.

It wasn't mine either, and still isn't (even though I'm married with kids!), and my point wasn't really about that but more that the social message aimed towards women centres around marriage and children. This message is fairly shoved down girls throats from an early age with the likes of Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, for example. Very little in literature deals with what happens after that, unless its divorce! Even the big hitter heroines in literature seem to be built around that mould - Jane Eyre, Elizabeth Bennett in Pride and Prejudice - their stories ended when they got their man. I found, at the point in my life that I mentioned, that this realisation hit me very, very hard and for a while I didn't quite know what to do about it.


The Djin in the Nightingale's Eye by A.S. Byatt. it's about a middle-aged lit professor whose husband cheated on her (if I remember correctly) and now she's trying to figure out who she is and what to do with her life. It's set in Turkey because she's attending a conference about fairy tales there and there are lots of fairy tale elements (e.g. the Djin). not too bad.

I have this book! It's short stories isn't it? I'll have to refresh my memory.

[Sweets America]

It wasn't mine either, and still isn't (even though I'm married with kids!), and my point wasn't really about that but more that the social message aimed towards women centres around marriage and children. This message is fairly shoved down girls throats from an early age with the likes of Cinderella, Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, for example. Very little in literature deals with what happens after that, unless its divorce! Even the big hitter heroines in literature seem to be built around that mould - Jane Eyre, Elizabeth Bennett in Pride and Prejudice - their stories ended when they got their man. I found, at the point in my life that I mentioned, that this realisation hit me very, very hard and for a while I didn't quite know what to do about it.

Yes, I see what you mean. This is what I don't like about society. I don't want to enclose myself in a role that other people have decided I should have. Maybe I will marry and have kids though, we never know. :p I mean, it would be stupid not to do that 'just because I don't want to follow the society's ideas'. So, if I felt someday that it is what would make me happy, then I would do it.
I think that a woman has her own life outside of the life she has with her kids. Even with kids, I would still have my own dreams, my life would not be centered around my kids and would not stop to what I have with them.
I really see what you mean about the social message. I also think perhaps I will understand better if someday I myself have kids. I think I cannot totally know what I'm talking about unless I experience that.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Yes, I see what you mean. This is what I don't like about society. I don't want to enclose myself in a role that other people have decided I should have. Maybe I will marry and have kids though, we never know. :p I mean, it would be stupid not to do that 'just because I don't want to follow the society's ideas'. So, if I felt someday that it is what would make me happy, then I would do it.
I think that a woman has her own life outside of the life she has with her kids. Even with kids, I would still have my own dreams, my life would not be centered
around my kids and would not stop to what I have with them.
I really see what you mean about the social message. I also think perhaps I will understand better if someday I myself have kids. I think I cannot totally know what I'm talking about unless I experience that.

But would you really have to have kids to experience a full life? It is an aspect of the 'innocent' sexism of our species to assume that a woman must want to have children or there is something unnatural about her.

But while this stereotype is especially damaging to women, it's unjust to men as well. Some months after the mother of my children and I had separated she expressed her appreciation of me for never having disappeared from our children's lives the way many separated fathers did.

The remark astounded me as as the thought of ceasing to be involved with them and loving them and being amazed and overjoyed by them could not have occurred to me. Evidently, however, it does occur to some men; or even within their marriages they at best tolerate the presence of their children.

Nothing has contributed so much to whatever is good and happy in me as my children. And yet many men don't have that - or don't even know that they could.

[TheFifthElement]

Nothing has contributed so much to whatever is good and happy in me as my children.

Yes children are wonderful, and there is still a part of me, though I have made a clear decision not to, that still yearns for that voyage of discovery.

[AuntShecky]

It must've been chilling for middle-aged women, les dames d'un certain age, to read A Handmaiden's Tale by the Canadian genius, Margaret Atwood. The book is a brilliant dystopic satire examining the condition of womanhood, among other aspects of the post-modern society. In that novel (I confess I never did catch the film version) women beyond childbearing years are condemned -- that's the word -- to be cleaning women,
called "Marthas."
It is bad enough to have to endure menopause, be it naturally or surgically-induced, but far worse to suspect that a woman has outlived her usefullness, or perceived value to society. But Mother Nature doesn't automatically condemn us to death as soon as our childbirthing days are over, does she?; nor should we consider ourselves exclusively grandmothers or convenient baby-sitters.
There is more to life than child-bearing and child-rearing.
There is much to offer and enjoy with the seasoning of wisdom (?) and maturity