The Book Of Job [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

seeker

07-13-2004, 10:43 PM

I am currently reading through my Bible and have come across Job. In reading it i have been digesting its literary value as well as spritual significance, and would enjoy a good discusion of it from these perspectives, preferably chapter by chapter.

Ill start with chapter one for this week, and the thread is open to comments and insights on the chapter, then next week ill post here for chapter two, and so on. Also, i will be reading from the New Internation Version of the Bible.

Job 1

Prologue

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.
4 His sons used to take turns holding feasts in their homes, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send and have them purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

Job's First Test
6 One day the angels [1] came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan [2] also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD .
13 One day when Job's sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, 14 a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, 15 and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"
16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"
17 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"
18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, "Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother's house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"
20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart. [3]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."

22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

I like to encourage others who read this not to be discouraged by the depth that people like Robert Sutherland display, and to post their opinions, because there is still deep meaning in the simpler things, and they are always worth being pointed out!

seeker

07-13-2004, 11:07 PM

OK, this chapter sets the stage for the whole book

Job, a man who is very wealthy, having earned all his money, has a bunch of kids (considered a sign of Gods blessing back then), and is currently prospering, has attracted the attention of God, who enjoys this man as an example of the benefits of a righteous life.

[Before we go on I'd like to note that the mindset of the people of the day was that if a man became wealthy and prosperous, earning his money and enjoying his riches, he was considered righteous so long as he observerd the Jewish rituals of sacrefice. He was then to be viewed as having the blessing of God as a righteous man. Therefore Job was seen as righteous to all of his social peers by his accumulated wealth and number of servant and children.]

Satan is seen appearing before God along with the angels, and God asks him what buisness he has there.

Interestingly enough it is God who brings up the topic of Job as a subject of Satans attention

Satan proposes testing Jobs true heart by removing what is most dear to him, that which God has blessed him with, to see what remains. And though God has brought this man to Satan to be tested He also demands his overal safety. I assume this is because He still has a reason for Job to endure this suffering.

Job then losses, quite literally in one day, everything that is important to him;
first his flocks of sheep, cattle and donkeys
and then his sons and daughter. All of them.

I think Jobs response is the defining monent of his character.

He first expresses his grief, which must be unimaginably immense and horrible, by tearing is cloths and shaving his head bald. I seem to recall, though im not certain, that a Jewish mans old gray/white hair and beard were considered his pride. Shaving these is the most outward expression of grief know to Job. What could this be compared to today?

His second action after expressing grief is to worship God. Job states that God has given him wealth and has now choosen to take it away, and he still chooses to give praise to Him, I suppose taking comfort first in his Faith in Gods ability to oversee his life, in his personal health and also his still surviving wife.

that quote is perhaps my favorite quote in this whole book
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart. [3]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."

thats all from me. I look foward to this discusion! also, please feel free to criticise my views, as i am sure they are not always accuratly portraide (sp?), and to state what i have already stated. perhaps from anothers perspective it will sound better or make more sense.

†
pura vida
seeker

Robert Sutherla

07-14-2004, 12:18 PM

Seeker:
The author’s judgment on Job merits deeper examination. The terminology is the terminology of natural law. This may be the result of the international wisdom tradition of which The Book of Job is an important part. Or this may be the result of the author’s personal background. Job is presented as a jurist (Job 29:7-17) and the author himself may have been a jurist.

The terminology used to describe Job resonates with the ethic of natural law.

Job is “blameless”. The Hebrew “tam” here means “whole”, “complete”, “sound”, “lacking in nothing”, “fully integrated”, “blameless”, “perfect”. The focus here is on human nature. Ideologically, “tam” covers the same ground as Moses’ “qodosh”. It describes the perfect fulfillment of the purpose for which a human being exists. It describes the perfect fulfillment of the natural needs that define human nature. Job is holy as the LORD his God is holy. Ideologically, “tam” covers the same ground as Jesus’ “teleios”. It is the complete and perfect actualization of all the natural desires that define human nature. Those actualizations are properly ordered and proportioned so that all the potentialities are fully integrated. Job is as truly and fully human as his heavenly father is truly and fully divine. Job is humanity at its very best. His maturity verges on sinlessness. In fact, “tam” is used to describe the sinlessness of Satan prior to his fall from grace. (Ezekiel 28:13) This single word governs all the other words that follow in the description of Job. They illustrate aspects of his blamelessness and are included within it.

Job is “upright”. The Hebrew “yashar” here means “upright”, “just”, “righteous”, “doing what is right and pleasing in the eyes of God”. It describes two aspects of moral virtue: justice and righteousness. Justice is one of the cardinal virtues, the hinge on which the moral life swings. Justice is rendering unto another that which is their due or right. Justice is primarily a negative virtue. It indicates that one’s pursuit and possession of all the apparent goods a human being might want by nurture does not interfere with one’s own or anyone else’s pursuit and possession of all the real goods all human beings need by nature. Righteousness or love is one of the theological virtues. It is an extension and transformation of the cardinal virtue justice. Love is seeking the good of another, as opposed to one’s own good. Love is primarily a positive virtue. It describes all the positive assistance one gives in helping others with their pursuit and possession of all the real goods all human beings need by nature. This positive “doing of what is right”, as opposed to not “doing what is wrong”, is what constitutes “righteousness”. Job is virtuous: just and loving.

Job “fears God.” The Hebrew “yare Elohim” means the proper “awe”, “reverence” and “honor” a human being should have towards Almighty God. The “totum bonum” is the pursuit and possession of the package of real goods that makes a person truly and fully human. It is the total good of man. “Tam” draws out this dimension in Job. The “summum bonum” is the pursuit and possession of the highest good within that package, a personal relationship with God. “Yare Elohim” draws out this dimension in Job. Job has it all. Job seeks first the kingdom of God and its righteousness and all has been added unto him.

Job “turns from evil.” The Hebrew “sara ra” here means not only “withdrawing from evil” but “avoiding evil” and “keeping oneself far from” it in the first place. The mature man is not the one who never does wrong, but the one who is quick to realize he has done wrong, to be sorry for it, to do restitution and to amend his character. This is what’s meant by withdrawing from evil. Unlike the first Adam, Job is not a man who fails to take personal responsibility for his actions and who tries to shift blame. Job is a mature Adam. However in Job’s case, the emphasis in the phrase “turns from evil” is on the latter component: “avoiding evil” and “keeping oneself far from” it in the first place. Unlike the first Adam, Job is not one who blunders into sin. When he raises his Oath of Innocence against God, he will do it with the integrity of his being. For Job, the Oath of Innocence will be the only way he can avoid sinning. A man of God must speak the truth at all costs.

Is Uz being presented as a variation on the Garden of Eden?

Is Job being presented as a new Adam?

Is Job being presented as sinless?

seeker

07-14-2004, 01:35 PM

Is Uz being presented as a variation on the Garden of Eden?

Is Job being presented as a new Adam?

Is Job being presented as sinless?

Wow, deep questions. As for the first two, that is a very interesting... i forget the word, so im using hytpothesis. And they open up the discusion on a new level. While i am not certain that these were the meaning of the book (i tend to lean more toward the general "bad things happen to good people" and the implications of that mindset), they are very intriuging(sp?) parrallels.

As you stated in your post, i dont believe that Job is being portraid as "sinless" in the defenition of the word, but as righteous as any human man can be, making the daily concious effort to keep himself on good terms with God through animal sacrefices and in keeping with His religious regulations, personally and socially.

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Thats exactly what i am looking for, thank you Rob!

Haha, although i thouroughly enjoyed your post, i feel that it put mine to shame. But im still happy with what little i could glean from the chapter myself, and will continue to post myself.

I would also like to encourage others who read this not to be discouraged by the depth that people like Robert Southerla display, and to post their opintions, because there is still deep meaning in the simpler things, and they are always worth being pointed out.

†
pura vida
seeker

Robert Sutherla

07-14-2004, 05:06 PM

Seeker:

I think it is an open question as to whether Job is sinless. The Hebrew "tam" usually translated "perfect" or "blameless" can mean sinless. Certainly, no human being can be sinless without reliance on God, but Jesus was said to be sinless through reliance on God and Job looks a lot like Jesus. It is not easy to find an discernable sin in Job. In any event (great maturity or sinlessness), Job is so righteous that the evil he suffers cannot easily be read as a punishment or a form of character development.

I think the Book of Job looks like a rewrite of the Book of Genesis, in the sense that it is complimentary, maybe even contradictory, view on how we ended up in the world we find ourselves in. In the Book of Genesis, Adam is booted out of the garden because of his sin. In the Book of Job, Job is booted out of the garden because of his righteousness.

Is God causally responsible for the evil that befell Job?

Did God have a good reason for sending that evil?

seeker

07-17-2004, 06:00 PM

I believe God is responsible for all evil that occurs to man

But in that same word "responsible" comes the "responsibility" part. When we encounter evil and are tested God is required, by his own words, to support us and eventually reward us, depending on our actions and, more importantly, our motivations . Of course all this would theoretically be subject to His judgment.

I do believe that there is a reason for everything, including evil. The problem with being human is the constant restriction to "now", only being able to see things as they happen, as they currently "are", often forgetting the past and never knowing the future until it is the now of tomorrow.

I agree with you in the similarity and interesting lines drawn between them. But at the end of Job, he is rewarded for his righteousness, whereas Adam was never accepted back into the garden. They both portray the same basic principle behind much of the Bible; "Good is rewarded and bad is punished".

It might be appropriate to add this also: "but both will experience pain before the end".

†
pura vida
seeker

Robert Sutherla

07-17-2004, 06:25 PM

Seeker:

You write: "But at the end of Job, he is rewarded for his righteousness, whereas Adam was never accepted back into the garden. They both portray the same basic principle behind much of the Bible; "Good is rewarded and bad is punished"."

1. The ending of the Book of Job is a little more complex than simple righteousness and reward.

It contains an implicit admission by God that he did evil. Hebrew law provided that if a person was wrongfully deprived of goods, both parties shall come before God; the one whom God condemns shall pay double to the other. (Exodus 22:7-9) God has wrongfully deprived Job of seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys. (Job 1:3; 14-18) God now repays the loss double, giving fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand donkeys.” (Job 42:12) God has wrongfully deprived Job of the good life. God now repays that loss double, giving an extended good life. Job lives a further 140 years (Job 42:16), presumably double the 70 years he has already lived. He dies at the ripe old age of 210 years, a life-span typified by the patriarchs themselves. But Job is the ultimate patriarch, the father of theistic humanism.

To some, this seems like just reparation. However, it is not. His ten children are not resurrected. They are not restored to the good lives they lost. The ten new children are no substitute. There is no real compensation that can be offered for the loss of human life. As with much in The Book of Job, this final restoration is mere temptation on the author’s part, a temptation to the reader and a temptation to Job to premature judgment. That premature judgment is that now all is right with the world. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A standard of justice was set with the first scene on earth and the first scene in heaven. Job was the best a man could be. All that he had, all that he was, was rightfully his. This is what he was justly entitled to: nothing more, nothing less. A test of righteousness and reward was instituted. Job lost everything. Prima facie, this was an act of injustice, because Job was deprived of what was rightfully his as a matter of justice. This restoration of Job is richly ambiguous. If the first test was having less reward than one’s righteousness merits, then this restoration is a second test. The second test is having more reward than one’s righteousness merits. The moral test that is life itself is merely transposed into a different key. The test is never ending as long as life continues. Will Job continue to demand answers for the question of evil in the world even when he is well off? Will we?

seeker

07-17-2004, 07:15 PM

Seeker:

You write: "But at the end of Job, he is rewarded for his righteousness, whereas Adam was never accepted back into the garden. They both portray the same basic principle behind much of the Bible; "Good is rewarded and bad is punished"."

It contains an implicit admission by God that he did evil. Hebrew law provided that... the one whom God condemns shall pay double to the other. (Exodus 22:7-9) God has wrongfully deprived Job of seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys. (Job 1:3; 14-18) God now repays the loss double, giving fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand donkeys.” (Job 42:12) God has wrongfully deprived Job of the good life. God now repays that loss double, giving an extended good life. Job lives a further 140 years (Job 42:16), presumably double the 70 years he has already lived. He dies at the ripe old age of 210 years, a life-span typified by the patriarchs themselves.

To some, this seems like just reparation. However, it is not. His ten children are not resurrected. They are not restored to the good lives they lost. The ten new children are no substitute. There is no real compensation that can be offered for the loss of human life. As with much in The Book of Job, this final restoration is mere temptation on the author’s part, a temptation to the reader and a temptation to Job to premature judgment. That premature judgment is that now all is right with the world. Nothing could be further from the truth.

...If the first test was having less reward than one’s righteousness merits, then this restoration is a second test. The second test is having more reward than one’s righteousness merits. The moral test that is life itself is merely transposed into a different key. The test is never ending as long as life continues. Will Job continue to demand answers for the question of evil in the world even when he is well off? Will we?

That is a very challenging question, one that I hope will haunt all who read it here.

I agree with you, and thus the rest of my quote
"but both will experience pain before the end" ,
which I described as the main theme of the Bible.

There can be no "reperations" to some kinds of pain and loss, the most obvious and largly agreed upon being the loss of love and life, specifically human, and the second being material, both being coupled to precious memories.

Haha, I am not sure, partly because I am enjoying it so much, but would all of this discusion be better digested at the end of this study of the book, after we all have had enough time to look into this book at least a fraction of the depth you have, Mr. Southerland? Right now I would prefer a chapter by chapter analysis, and if you have prepared an outliine this way, that would be the ideal way do fully comprehend this deep book, I think ( I know you have to be typing off of some kind of long prepared notes you made in preperation for an intelectual snack such as this to have responded so quickly to our meager contributions to the full course here). Much like a large dinner, if we eat the sweets first, we will not enjoy the most fufilling things that are basic and neccesary!

Hm. now that I have put time into it (and typed out in this paragraph), I think I can feel how this discusion fits into the first chapter, being as full of action and discussion fodder as it is. Oh well.

†
seeker

Robert Sutherla

07-17-2004, 07:38 PM

Seeker:

1. You write: "I am not sure, partly because I am enjoying it so much, but would all of this discusion be better digested at the end of this study of the book, after we all have had enough time to look into this book at least a fraction of the depth you have, Mr. Southerland? Right now I would prefer a chapter by chapter analysis"

No problem. I was just responding to your comments about the book's ending. Getting back to the beginning, I would note Satan's challenge which amounts to a trial of God and his plan in creation.

"Into this world comes a tempter. His name is “Satan”. (Job 1:6) This proper name “Satan” is a modification of the common Hebrew noun “satan”, which means “the accuser”, “the slanderer”. His name is his title, and that title aptly describes his character. He is a liar, though the extent of his lies remains for other books of The Bible to develop. In any event, this is not the portrait of a faithful servant. As a member of the heavenly host and not yet an outside challenger, he seems to have unlimited access to God and the divine council. Having reviewed the lives of men and women “from going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it” (Job 1:7), Satan does not hesitate to question the justice of God when asked. For many scholars, the phrase “going to and fro” describes a member of the secret police of the ancient world. Such persons were men who did not hesitate to wrongly accuse and wrongly condemn the innocent to death. This phrase darkens the portrait of a faithless servant. And as a “slanderer”, Satan is not a just and impartial prosecutor of God’s justice. He presents a profoundly different verdict on the life of Job and, by implication, the lives of all men and women. It is his charge that brings silence to the heavenly court.

“Does Job fear God for nothing? Have you not put a fence around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” (Job 1:9-11)

All await God’s answer to this slander.

The accusation was devilish in both origin and design. It raises three issues for consideration: one explicit and two implicit.

First, Satan’s judgment brings into question God’s judgment on Job. And it does so explicitly. God’s judgment on Job is a judgment on his intentions. Job intends the good. Satan’s judgment on Job is a judgment on his motives. Job intends the good for reasons of selfishness. He does not fear God for nothing. He serves God for what he can get from him: the good life. In short, Job does not really serve God. Job manipulates God. This motive is the hidden sin. Job is a sinner. Satan’s challenge is a claim to the soul of Job.

Satan’s claim here has two important elements. Job is a sinner. And Job is such a sinner that, given the right circumstances, Job will “curse” God “to his very face”. Satan’s prediction here may suggest a self-imprecation: “I’ll be damned if he doesn’t curse you to your face!” If so, then, within a canonical perspective, The Book of Job may be presenting an alternate version of the fall of Satan. In any event, blessing and cursing, righteousness and rebellion are for Satan two sides of the same coin. Because human beings serve God out of selfishness not selfless love, they are equally apt to curse God for the loss of their rewards as they are to bless him for the receipt of those rewards. It is vitally important to remember that the essence of Satan’s claim is that God has missed sin in Job’s character. Job was not blameless. If Job sins in any way in thought, word or deed short of actually cursing God, then Satan is right and God is wrong in his judgment on Job. The reason is simple. Plot reveals character. If Job sins in his test, then that sin is an expression of a pre-existing character flaw that God missed but Satan didn’t miss.

Secondly, Satan’s judgment brings into question God’s authority to judge. And it does so implicitly. If God is wrong in his judgment on Job, then God has erred. In this scene, God is called “LORD”. This is the NRSV translation of the Hebrew “JHWH” which may also be transliterated as “YHWH”. “Yahweh” is the personal name for God in the Old Testament. It is often left untranslated as YHWH. This personal name is taken from God’s self-disclosure to Moses in the burnish bush.

“But Moses said to God, “If I come to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name? What shall I say to them? God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” He said further, ‘Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, ‘Thus you shall say to the Israelites, “The LORD, the God of your ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: This is my name forever and this my title for all generations.” (Exodus 3:13-15)

In the Exodus revelation, God’s name is given in three ways: “I AM WHO I AM”, “I AM”, and “LORD”. All three forms are forms of the Hebrew word “to be”. In Hebrew, “I AM WHO I AM” is “ehyeh asheh ehyeh”, first person singular, present tense. In Hebrew, “I AM” is “ehyeh”, a shortened form of the former, but again first person singular, present tense. In Hebrew, “LORD” is “jhwh”, third person singular, present tense. It functions as a personal name, Yahweh. This self-designation by God is the designation of a perfect being. Scholars have seen in the use of the first “I AM” a reference to essence and in the use of the second “I AM” a reference to existence. Through this name, God declares himself to be the Supreme Being, a perfect being, a being whose essence is existence. By definition, such a being is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present and all-good. Certainly the ancient Jews understood the personal name of Yahweh to designate the perfect being God. If God is wrong in his judgment on Job, then God has ceased to be all-knowing. He has ceased to be a perfect being. The implication is clear. God should step down from his throne for he has lost the authority the one true God possess. Satan’s challenge is a claim to the throne of heaven.

Thirdly, Satan’s judgment brings into question God’s very purpose in the creation of man. And it does so implicitly. If Job is the very best man has to offer and God is wrong in his judgment on Job, then God is wrong in judgment on mankind. Man was created to freely love God. If men and women love God for what they can get from him, then their love for God is not genuine. It is manipulation not love. It is selfishness not self-giving. That selfishness may be short-term: the good life. Or that selfishness may be long term: an after-life, eternal life. If mankind cannot rise beyond selfishness, then a meaningful relationship with God is never possible in this life or the next. God is wrong in creating mankind in the first place. The entire human project is a failure and should be scrapped. Mankind itself should be destroyed. Satan’s challenge is a claim to destroy the earth and all in it.

This three-fold judgment was a stroke of evil genius. With a single accusation, Satan had put God on trial. And he had done before the High Court of Heaven. In any event, this three-fold challenge carries with it profound implications for understanding Job’s so-called excessive words and his Oath of Innocence. If Job sins in any way short of actually cursing God, then God has lost it all."

Here is the most difficult question: if God intends human beings to love him selflessly without any hope of reward, then are those who seek and serve God for the rewards of an afterlife saved? Or are they as Satan claims his?

seeker

07-17-2004, 09:43 PM

Here is the most difficult question: if God intends human beings to love him selflessly without any hope of reward, then are those who seek and serve God for the rewards of an afterlife saved? Or are they as Satan claims his?

When I was in the 6th grade, I asked my youth paster that same question after being told about the riches of heaven as a reward for righteousness.

He couldn't answer me.

You have a knack for haunting questions, and personally for me, looking into missions as my line of work for life, and studying my motivations for this lifestyle, this is especially meaningful. I suppose the only way to know for absolute certain would be to lose all.

What your saying then is, as in Sodom and Gammorah (sp?), man, and God along with us, was being tested to see if all this was worth the effort to maintain, if the only reason men honor God is for the benefits, whether they be temporeal or eternal?

I suppose my only answer is that Jesus Himself said that we love the Lord because He first loved us. Blessings on earth may be Gods only way to say, while we are still down here, "Hey, look what I am doing for you, I love you!". So when God then takes these things away, it is not because He no longer loves us, it is because He wants to know, or more appropriatly (sp?), wants us to know for certain, if we still love Him.

Robert Sutherla

07-17-2004, 09:53 PM

Seeker:

Very good answer. Righteousness is its own reward.

seeker

07-18-2004, 01:03 AM

Haha you must have been too tired to type something long and grueling to read!

I am interesting in what other (less educated people like myself) have to think though; and considering the number of "views" I think others must be reading these.

Chaper 2 starts tomorrow!!

seeker

07-18-2004, 10:23 AM

Job 2

Job's Second Test

1 On another day the angels [1] came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan also came with them to present himself before him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD , "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."
6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. 8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.
9 His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"
10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish [2] woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Job's Three Friends
11 When Job's three friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, heard about all the troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathize with him and comfort him. 12 When they saw him from a distance, they could hardly recognize him; they began to weep aloud, and they tore their robes and sprinkled dust on their heads. 13 Then they sat on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights. No one said a word to him, because they saw how great his suffering was.

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im toooo tired to comment, I'll do it later

Robert Sutherla

07-18-2004, 10:32 AM

1. In Job 2:3, is God taking personal responsibility for the evil that befell Job?

2. In Job 2:10, is Job saying God is the author of the evil that befell him?

3. Is Job cursing God in his heart if not with his lips?

seeker

07-18-2004, 02:20 PM

hmm, I had a response typed out and I lost it. here goes again

1. In Job 2:3, is God taking personal responsibility for the evil that befell Job?

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? ...he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."

God is clearly taking responsibility for the evil in Jobs life. Since we have already defined evil as (correct me if I am wrong please) the intentional destruction of that which is irreplaceable and cherished by another, esp. human life and love, and if all of life is under the control and direction of God, then all evil is His responsiblity.

2. In Job 2:10, is Job saying God is the author of the evil that befell him?

"....Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"

Yes, I believe he is.

3. Is Job cursing God in his heart if not with his lips?

... In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

This verse only informs the reader as to his verbal righteousness, but does not let us into his thoughts. Perhaps for a righteous man there is nothing that is spoken in the heart that cannot be said. While this does not allow for what an unrighteous Job would have spoken his heart, it does give us a hint as to the true status of Job's spirit and motivations.

If sin can be defined as those actions or motivation which seperates one from the Lord, then a curse against the Lord in the heart would create barrier, emotionally if not spiritually. It would then be neccesary that he did not curse God in his heart in order to remain righteous, in word and thought.

seeker

07-25-2004, 08:48 AM

Job 3

Job Speaks

1 After this, Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. 2 He said:

3 "May the day of my birth perish,
and the night it was said, 'A boy is born!'
4 That day-may it turn to darkness;
may God above not care about it;
may no light shine upon it.
5 May darkness and deep shadow [1] claim it once more;
may a cloud settle over it;
may blackness overwhelm its light.
6 That night-may thick darkness seize it;
may it not be included among the days of the year
nor be entered in any of the months.
7 May that night be barren;
may no shout of joy be heard in it.
8 May those who curse days [2] curse that day,
those who are ready to rouse Leviathan.
9 May its morning stars become dark;
may it wait for daylight in vain
and not see the first rays of dawn,
10 for it did not shut the doors of the womb on me
to hide trouble from my eyes.

11 "Why did I not perish at birth,
and die as I came from the womb?
12 Why were there knees to receive me
and breasts that I might be nursed?
13 For now I would be lying down in peace;
I would be asleep and at rest
14 with kings and counselors of the earth,
who built for themselves places now lying in ruins,
15 with rulers who had gold,
who filled their houses with silver.
16 Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child,
like an infant who never saw the light of day?
17 There the wicked cease from turmoil,
and there the weary are at rest.
18 Captives also enjoy their ease;
they no longer hear the slave driver's shout.
19 The small and the great are there,
and the slave is freed from his master.

20 "Why is light given to those in misery,
and life to the bitter of soul,
21 to those who long for death that does not come,
who search for it more than for hidden treasure,
22 who are filled with gladness
and rejoice when they reach the grave?
23 Why is life given to a man
whose way is hidden,
whom God has hedged in?
24 For sighing comes to me instead of food;
my groans pour out like water.
25 What I feared has come upon me;
what I dreaded has happened to me.
26 I have no peace, no quietness;
I have no rest, but only turmoil."

Busy today, I will update this with my take later, hope Mr. Sutherland posts some interesting questions!

Miranda

07-25-2004, 05:41 PM

Seeker, I would like to join your study of the book of Job though on a much lighter level than Robert as I am in no way as skilled or knowledgable enough to discuss in such depth, nor do I have the time. But as I said on the other thread, I do love the book of Job and would like to share in a discussion about it.

Strangely, sometimes I find this chapter where Job curses the day of his birth, funny (depending on the mood I am in when I read it) because..did you ever read anything so dark and grim? It's as if Job is seeking out every worst scenario for the day that he was born - and it's so dark! But I suppose I sometimes have a rather peculiar sense of humour and that I love irony.

I love the poetry in these words of Job though and their poetry is one of the main reasons for the book being one of my favourites. No words could more deeply express Job's desire for the day of his birth not to have happened, than these: ' 3 "May the day of my birth perish,
and the night it was said, 'A boy is born!'
4 That day-may it turn to darkness;
may God above not care about it;
may no light shine upon it.
5 May darkness and deep shadow [1] claim it once more;
may a cloud settle over it;
may blackness overwhelm its light.
6 That night-may thick darkness seize it;' ...
'8 May those who curse days [2] curse that day,
those who are ready to rouse Leviathan.
9 May its morning stars become dark;
may it wait for daylight in vain
and not see the first rays of dawn, '

I think that's wonderful. However..to it's meaning:

There is here a complete turn around in Job's attitude. When he lost all his belongings and everything that was dear to him..(except it seems, his wife who seemed to be more of a 'curse' than a blessing when she told him to 'curse God and die') Job stoically said 'Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away.' He was then resigned to his fate and saw God as within His rights to bless, then take those blessings away.

However whiley old Satan knows that though he is able to bear this...physical suffering, inexcapable pain are not so easily borne. 'Skin for skin, yea all that a man hath will he give for his life.' Interestingly Job does not want his life at all..he wants it to have not ever happened so that he wouldn't have had to suffer all these things. Job's life, ironically is the one thing that Satan is not allowed to take away. God has commanded Job's life must be preserved and thus has protected it. Nor does it come to Job's mind to take away his own life - only to wish it had never happened or that he could die. He implies that he longs for death 'but it cometh not and dig(s) for it more than for hid treasure.

As his suffering begins to bite deeper and deeper, Job's distress heightens - just as Satan knew it would. Job had the ability to deal with loss of outward things, but pain and suffering on the scale being inflicted on him, he is finding unbearable. He has not yet come to question why all this is happening to him - he is just wondering why he was ever born when he was to experience all this suffering. I think as yet, he is looking for an escape from the agony.

The reference to Leviathon is interesting and it doesn't appear in the King James version, which reads 'Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.' Robert is much better informed than me on this verse so I will leave him to explain it in more depth. I looked this up in my Eyre and Spottiswoode RSV study bible and it says that Leviathon, the legendary seamonster was thought to swallow up the sun in times of eclipse -which really fits in with the context here..that if those that curse the day, would also awaken Leviathon that he might swallow the sun to prevent Job's birth day from ever dawning.

Job's comments on death are really deep. He sees death as a leveller..it doesnt matter who you are..kings, counsellors, princes, the wicked, the weary, the prisoners..small and great are there...as well as stillborn babies and those that died soon after birth all come to rest in the grave. King James renders verse 17 'There the wicked cease from turmoil,' as 'there the wicked cease from troubling' which I think is more explanatory, meaning that they can't cause anyone any trouble once they are in the grave.

Every time I read chapter three of Job, I read the last two verses over and over again because I find them rather puzzling. '25 What I feared has come upon me;what I dreaded has happened to me. 6 I have no peace, no quietness; I have no rest, but only turmoil." Usually I read King James though which says 'For the thing that I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, niether had I rest, neither was I quiet; but trouble came.'

The RSV also brings the context into the present tense and I wonder which is right? It kind of makes a difference in the way I looked at it. In the King James Version, it appears as if from the outset, Job was always apprehensive and feared that evil could befall him. This would fit with chapter 1 verse 5 where Job makes sacrifice for his children - just in case they might have sinned - indicating that he was a man that worried. The reason vs 25 puzzled me was because Job didn't seem to have a reason to worry..or to think that he was not in safety or rest for God had blessed him so much. Why did he fear? He says that 'what I dreaded happened to me.' This indicates that he wasn't fully confident in God's provision - he knew that all he had could just as easily be lost. This kind of indicates doubt doesn't it? But why did he doubt? His words denote a level of insecurity which existed prior to him losing everything. Anyway these are the thoughts that spring to my mind from reading this chapter.

Miranda

seeker

07-25-2004, 09:10 PM

Robert Sutherla

07-26-2004, 09:37 AM

seeker:

There are some very interesting parallels between Job 3 and Genesis 1.

1. "That day, let there be darkness" (Job 3:4a)
"The first day..Let there be light" (Genesis 1:3,5)

2. "Let Eloah above not seek it" (Job 3:4b)
"And the waters above the firmament" (Genesis 1:7)

3. "Let darkness reclaim it" (Job 3:5a)
"And darkness was upon the face of the deep...And God made a separation beteeen light and the darkness" (Genesis 1:2,4)

4. "That night...Let it not be counted in the day of the year, nor appear in any of its months" (Job 3:6)
"Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day and night and let them be for signs and seasons and days and years." (Genesis 1:14)

5. "Let it be damned by those who curse the day, by those ready to rouse Leviathan" (Job 3:8)
"And God also created the great sea monsters (tannim)" (Genesis 1:21)

6. "Let it hope for light that never comes." (Job 3:9)
"Let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light on earth." (Genesis 1:15)

Is Job calling for a reversal of the created order?

The word “curse” here is perhaps too strong. The Hebrew root actually means to “threat lightly” or with “contempt”.

Has Job cursed God here?

seeker

07-26-2004, 11:03 AM

It appears that he is cursing himself, not God. Do you mean, that Job, by cursing Gods way of things, is cursing God? I do not think that cursing the current state of things is cursing God. So no, it does not appear he has cursed God.

Perhaps Genesis, being the only form of literature at the time, was the only structured form Job had to base his speeches on, thus the similarities. I am interested in what you believe these paralles mean.

Robert Sutherla

07-26-2004, 12:20 PM

Miranda:

"Most commentators and versions believe him to be saying that at the present time whatever fear his imagination presents him with he finds turning into reality (as JB 'Whatever I fear comes true, whatever I dread befalls me.') "he has only to think of some new evil and it is sure to come upon him' (Rowley)...Job evidently was aware that calamity was a possibility even for the most exemplary person. And now the worst he could ever have imagined has become literal reality (similarly NJPS, NIV, Pope, Gordis, Ander, Habel)." David Clines, Job 1-20: Word Biblical Commentary, p. 103.

In fact, the pre-existing fear you describe in Job before his calamity is inconsistent with Job's descriptions of his prior life. (Job 16:12; 29:18-20)

Miranda

07-26-2004, 06:28 PM

Dear Robert and Seeker Both your replies jump forward to chapters not yet studied and as far as I understood you were tracing the story of Job chapter by chapter...so excuse me..but I ain't got to Job 13 or 16 yet! (I should put a smiley here, but I really can't stand them!!) But thank you both for your explanations as to what ch 3 vs 25 could mean, which have helped me to better understand and I agree with what you say.

I don't agree that Job has cursed God (lightly or otherwise) or that what is written is a reversal of Genesis, though it's an interesting idea - and a possibility. Job is definately cursing the day that he was born..but as Seeker says, cursing that which has been created is not the same as cursing the creator. Also I don't think that in this passage, Job is referring to himself when he says 'let those who curse the day.' Obviously he could be including himself as this is exactly what he is doing, but I rather think that he isn't including himself. I think he is referring to those who would invoke Leviathon..although I am stepping here onto ground here that I maybe don't properly understand and maybe what I am saying is nonsense! None the less, I will have to courage to say what I think. The way I am looking at this is as if 'those who would rouse Leviathon' are kind of worshippers of a false god that would invoke the evil monster.' Job ofcourse would not be numbered among such people because he is perfect..but he could still wish that those who do call on Leviathon to awaken, would cause it to 'eat the sun' on the day that he was born that both the day and himself would never have been - without actually sinning himself. I don't know if I have expressed myself very clearly here, but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

Seeker, I do agree with this ' I believe righteousness, at least for the definition necessary for Job to remain righteous in this story, is for any man (or woman ), achieved by making constant efforts to remain in Gods favor, for the sake of doing the right thing, while not making the same poor discisions after the first time.' I think this is a really good description of the kind of righteousness Job has. He is man of exemplary character.

Robert, could you tell me if your book is available in England? I will try and get it from the library if so. They are pretty good at getting books for me and it will mean that it goes onto the library shelf - if it's available and they will get it for me.

Miranda

seeker

07-26-2004, 08:02 PM

Robert Sutherla

07-26-2004, 08:43 PM

Seeker:

You write: "The leviathan is believed to have been a real sea creature, perhaps a prehistoric dinosaur such as the pleseosaur (PLEASE-Y-O-SAUR) , or perhaps another very, very large crocodillian (looked like a big croc with fins for legs) dinosaur whose name I cannot remember right now."

Even young earth creationist websites comment on the difficulties with reading Behemoth and Leviathan as dinosaurs: Behemoth being a plant eater living on land or in shallow swamps and Leviathan being a carnivor living in the sea. The difficulties involve five verses:

Behemoth

1. “Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like bars of iron.” (Job 40:18) They note a literal reading here is inaccurate.

2. “Under the lotus plants it lies, in the covert of the reeds and in the marsh.: (Job 40:32) They note no large plant eater would qualify as it would be unable to conceal itself in such a small area. This is probably the most telling argument against such a reading.

3. “Even if the river is turbulent, it is not frightened; it is confident though Jordan rushes against its mouth.” (Job 40:33) They note the small mouths of such plant eaters. A large flow of water could drown some creatures. Alternative renderings of the same verse have Behemoth swallowing the river.

Leviathan

4. “It makes the deep boil like a pot.” (Job 41:31) They note the passage entails not only the churning of waters but the evaporation of waters. Even the hypothesized existence of a fire-breathing dinosaur (extrapolated from the example of a modern beetle) would not account for such evaporation.

5. "Will it make many supplications to you? Will it speak soft words to you?" (Job 41:3) They note it would be a very advanced dinosaur if it possessed the power of human speech.

My apologies on jumping but you started it.

Robert Sutherla

07-26-2004, 08:51 PM

Miranda:

It is a beautiful image of Leviathan swallowing the sun. As a chaos monster, Leviathan represents evil. The sun represents goodness. Poetically, the swallowing of the sun represents the triumph of evil over goodness.

This is only one image of Leviathan. There are others in the Canaanite myths along similar lines. The chaos monster Mot has a mouth so large that when the night comes it swallows the world and all its inhabitants. Poetically, the swallowing of the world represents the triumph of evil over goodness.

The ancient Jewish poets including Isaiah will reverse the image. God swallows Leviathan at the resurrection and final judgment. (Isaiah 25:6-9)

My book is available online at http://www.bookofjob.org I don't believe it is in British libraries yet.

Additionally, you may start to think of the literary significance of why Job begins with Leviathan (Job 3) and God ends with Leviathan (Job 40-41).

Miranda

07-27-2004, 06:56 PM

Robert, I've been reading Isaiah (another of my favourite O.T books) and the reference you mentioned. But to find the context, I read the preceding chapter, 24. If the Leviathon 'theme' is basic to these chapters, and Isaiah is reversing the image - would you agree that chapter 24 in fact shows that God is in control of making the earth empty..and not Leviathon? For here it is the Lord that makes the earth empty and makes it waste, and turns it upside down. However, verses five and six explain why - because of man's sin, though Job of course is righteous.

The image of Mot swallowing the earth is really scary - I am glad that I wasn't born into a civilisation and time that believed in such things - I'd never have gone to sleep!

Could you tell me Robert, why in the KJV bible Leviathon is changed to 'mourning?' It seems so different and yet in other places the name Leviathon is used. Is the same word for Leviathon used in all references, or is there a different word used in Job 3 (in the original language)?

The way I look at the literary significance of it Leviathon in Job 3 and God ending with Leviathon in 40-41 is this: in chapter 3 (as I see it) Job is wishing that those who would invoke Leviathon would rouse him to swallow the day of his birth. This places Leviathon under man's control - as if man can manipulate him to do his will. Chapter 40-41 plainly shows that Leviathon is not at all under man's control. 'Can you put a hook through his nose?...'Will he make a covenant with thee?...Will you take him as a servant forever?'... Behold the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?' However, Leviathon is under God's control: 'None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?' Who hath prevented me that I should repay him? Whatsoever is under heaven is mine.' So as I see it, the story shows that ultimately God is in control of all that happens - and Job is, as it were 'getting above his station' if he thinks that he is in control or that God, his creator, is answerable to him. However, I think your view is different and that you see God as being answerable to Job.

I will see if I can get your book from the library. If it's on sale in England, they might get it for me, but only if it's on sale here. I am not good at reading books on-line - somehow I can't concentrate the same as if I have it on paper and ink in front of me..plus its portable..meaning I can read it in bed!

Seeker..you are forgiven. Actually it's quite hard not to refer to chapters forward of the one we are studying especially when they are relevant and spring straight to mind. That banana has stopped dancing since I clicked on this reply box...and all I can say is...'bring back the smilies, all is forgiven!' Actually there are some smilies that I do like - I just don't like the 'well used' ones. I like the one on here where smiley is smashing up the computer monitor..computers make you feel just like that sometimes! And I like the cute little one that waves.

It's a little off topic..in fact right off topic..but is it possible to copy more than one item to the clipboard at the same time..so you can for example copy a series of quotes?

Miranda

seeker

07-27-2004, 09:21 PM

:ladysman:

I rather like this one heheh

It's a little off topic..in fact right off topic..but is it possible to copy more than one item to the clipboard at the same time..so you can for example copy a series of quotes?

Miranda

I am sure it is, but I ussually just open several pages at one time and copy paste as neccesary. Besides, i dont know how...

Even young earth creationist websites comment on the difficulties with reading Behemoth and Leviathan as dinosaurs: Behemoth being a plant eater living on land or in shallow swamps and Leviathan being a carnivor living in the sea. The difficulties involve five verses:

Behemoth

1. “Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like bars of iron.” (Job 40:18) They note a literal reading here is inaccurate.

2. “Under the lotus plants it lies, in the covert of the reeds and in the marsh.: (Job 40:32) They note no large plant eater would qualify as it would be unable to conceal itself in such a small area. This is probably the most telling argument against such a reading.

3. “Even if the river is turbulent, it is not frightened; it is confident though Jordan rushes against its mouth.” (Job 40:33) They note the small mouths of such plant eaters. A large flow of water could drown some creatures. Alternative renderings of the same verse have Behemoth swallowing the river.

Leviathan

4. “It makes the deep boil like a pot.” (Job 41:31) They note the passage entails not only the churning of waters but the evaporation of waters. Even the hypothesized existence of a fire-breathing dinosaur (extrapolated from the example of a modern beetle) would not account for such evaporation.

5. "Will it make many supplications to you? Will it speak soft words to you?" (Job 41:3) They note it would be a very advanced dinosaur if it possessed the power of human speech.

AH, I am just itcing to discuss this one with you, but I will refrain until we reach that chapter, but then I will use your quotes here to discuss them with you. I have always been under the impresion that these two creatures were dinosaurs, and I look foward to this discusion.

If we keep jumping the gun we wont have anything to discuss later!

seeker

08-01-2004, 10:43 AM

Chapter 4 starts today!

I will wait for someone else to start this week, I am busy today! Have fun.

Eliphaz

1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite replied:

2 "If someone ventures a word with you, will you be impatient?
But who can keep from speaking?
3 Think how you have instructed many,
how you have strengthened feeble hands.
4 Your words have supported those who stumbled;
you have strengthened faltering knees.
5 But now trouble comes to you, and you are discouraged;
it strikes you, and you are dismayed.
6 Should not your piety be your confidence
and your blameless ways your hope?

7 "Consider now: Who, being innocent, has ever perished?
Where were the upright ever destroyed?
8 As I have observed, those who plow evil
and those who sow trouble reap it.
9 At the breath of God they are destroyed;
at the blast of his anger they perish.
10 The lions may roar and growl,
yet the teeth of the great lions are broken.
11 The lion perishes for lack of prey,
and the cubs of the lioness are scattered.

12 "A word was secretly brought to me,
my ears caught a whisper of it.
13 Amid disquieting dreams in the night,
when deep sleep falls on men,
14 fear and trembling seized me
and made all my bones shake.
15 A spirit glided past my face,
and the hair on my body stood on end.
16 It stopped,
but I could not tell what it was.
A form stood before my eyes,
and I heard a hushed voice:
17 'Can a mortal be more righteous than God?
Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
18 If God places no trust in his servants,
if he charges his angels with error,
19 how much more those who live in houses of clay,
whose foundations are in the dust,
who are crushed more readily than a moth!
20 Between dawn and dusk they are broken to pieces;
unnoticed, they perish forever.
21 Are not the cords of their tent pulled up,
so that they die without wisdom?'

Miranda

08-01-2004, 07:02 PM

I am really tired tonight and my comments might not make much sense but..here goes!! Chapter 3 of Job interrupts the story of the three friends..but ch 2 ends with them sitting down on the ground for seven days and seven nights without speaking - for they saw that his grief was very great. Each one wept and ripped their mantle and 'sprinkled dust on their heads' towards heaven.'

The reason why they are silent is hard to imagine, cos I see it as more natural to want to speak to someone in such suffering and offer some comfort. So it must be something in Job's demeanor that commands them to be silent..as I see it anyway, maybe you disgree? Perhaps it was some ancient custom to sit and be silent in the face of such suffering?

At last Eliphaz speak, though it seems like he needs some kind of sign from Job that its okay for him to speak as he begins with the question 'will you be grieved if we speak to you?' And then he answers himself..'but how can we not speak to you'...for they want to help Job (as I see it) I think Eliphaz here is gently reminding him to take his own advice..the advice he has offered to others when he has supported them that were 'falling' and 'weak'. He is trying to encourage Job. Later on in the story (sorry for the jump) it seems that the friends become convinced Job has done something wrong, but here, at first I dont think this is the case in Eliphaz' first speech. I read on into chapter five cos they are too connected to ignore and it seems that Eliphaz is saying that as Job has done nothing wrong, he has nothing to fear and God will rescue him. I am tired and maybe misunderstanding this, but this is how I see it now.

Verses 13-16 remind me of Genesis 15 vs 12 and 17 - the language is similar and also Gen 29: 17. I dont know the significance of this cos my brain is too sleepy, but I guess if Moses wrote both these books it would explain it. I find the speeches of these friends puzzling and always have. Did Eliphaz really have such a vision..was it a vision or just a bad dream to which he has attached significance? The things these people say are kind of worldly wise and makes sense..and yet they are 'barking up the wrong tree'- as we say in Yorkshire. Off to bed now...
Miranda

Robert Sutherla

08-01-2004, 08:32 PM

Miranda:

I concur with your allusions to Genesis.

Eliphaz's dream or "vision of the night" is interesting.

1. Is this figure in the night a whirlwind?

Two points suggest it is. First, the Hebrew behind 4:15b may be read as either "hair" or "storm or whirlwind". The LXX and some important modern scholars, Tur-Sinai, Gordis, Dahood, Habel, read it that way hence the reading "A wind glided over my face, A whirlwind made my flesh shiver." Second, this storm is standing up (4:16) as a whirlwind would.

2. Is it a demonic vision?

Two points suggest it is. First, the figure in the whirlwind seems overly concerned with the judgment God has towards the angels. He opens with that comment. Is this a frustrated Satan speaking. Second, he declares that no mortals can be righteous before God. Yet Job is and will be declared so. It is an interesting counterpoint to God's appearance in a whirlwind later.

Miranda

08-02-2004, 04:02 PM

Robert, I'm inclined to agree with you that the vision that Eliphaz has, maybe be demonic. This didnt occur to me until you mentioned it, but verse 17 does support this view and it sounds like Satan in the garden..'Did God say?'..'Can a man...? Also it's a lie that God 'put no trust in his servants' and the devil does know that God has put trust in Job, that he will remain righteous and not curse him, whatever the Devil might throw at him. The devil is the author of lies. Niether were ALL of His angels charged with folly - only the fallen ones, I would think. So I think your conclusion is right Robert, that this vision/dream is demonic and the devil is really trying another 'tack' with Job, as you say. The 'god' that is described here, is merciless..those that live in houses of clay..are destroyed from morning to evening..and perish forever without anyone regarding it.' But God isnt like this - and certainly the God that Job knows and has known is not like this.

I think that it's not really possible to discuss chapter 4 separate from chapter 5 because they are too continuous. So, just jumping forward a little to ch 5: King James translates verse 3 as 'I have seen the foolish taking root; but suddenly I have cursed his habitation'. The NIV translates this as 'I myself have seen the foolish taking root, but suddenly his house was cursed.' This is very different since in the former, the speaker is taking responsibility for the curse and in the latter, the speaker is merely an observer. But only someone in a position of power could administer a curse..so this is either God or the devil speaking, supposing the King James version carries the right meaning..(though without knowing the Hebrew texts, it's impossible to know for sure) . But I think as you say..that its the devil. However the latter part of chapter 5 is different - and I think this is Eliphaz himself speaking as God is given His rightful place of power. Sorry for jumping ahead..cant seem to help it cos the text leads that way.

Verse 10 of chr 4 reminded me of another verse in the old testament about young lions suffering hunger so I looked it up. This is from Psalm 34:10 but this also led me to psalm 58 vs 6 'break their teeth (the wicked) O God in their mouth: break the great teeth of the young lions O Lord.' I am wondering if when David wrote this he had been reading the book of Job because this psalm refers to 'the untimely birth of a woman that may not see the sun' - and in verse 9 - 'a whirlwind. 'The beginning and the end lines of psalm 58: 'Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? Do you judge uprightly, ye sons of men? ' 'So that a man say, verily there is a reward for the righteous; verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.' They bear the same themes as the book of Job, of righteousness and judgement - man's place and God's place.

If David is indeed referring to the book of Job here, then the theory about the meaning and use of the word which means 'whirlwind' as well as 'hair,' is backed up by this psalm. I am thinking that if David had the book of Job and has been reading it before writing the psalm, he would certainly have understood this word in the right context..but then..I am just surmising all this..with my very little bit of knowledge.

Miranda

Miranda

08-06-2004, 02:56 PM

I am disappointed that having spent so long writing my post, no one replied to it.

seeker

08-06-2004, 05:19 PM

Sorry Miranda, but here in Florida we just got 3 days worth of waves at the beach and I have been taking advantage of the situation !! :nod: !!

Ok, I'm back and sunburnt... here we go.

15 A spirit glided past my face,
and the hair on my body stood on end.
16 It stopped,
but I could not tell what it was.
A form stood before my eyes,
and I heard a hushed voice:

Miranda you said that you believe Eliaphaz has "become" demonic if I read correctly. I disagree. It would appear to me that Eliaphaz has been visited by satan or one of his demons and been spoken to, not to have been reaching out to find satan. To me, this appears to be an advert attempt by Satan to bring Job down, by trying to corrupt one of his closest friends with bad advice, which is that if Job is righteous then this fact alone should protect him, and the fact that he is suffering from Gods hand mean that he has sinned.

There is a big difference between being influenced by and evil presence and being the evil yourself. A Biblical example for this would be David and King Saul. King Saul was Davids worst enemy, but David never killed him, even though he had many oppourtunities and was being hunted by Saul. The Bible says that Saul was visited by an evil spirit, but that Saul himself was the Lord's annointed one. Eliaphaz was a true friend of Jobs, but he did not understand the current situation; in the end he was only trying to help his friend, but had bad information from a bad source.

Miranda

08-06-2004, 06:28 PM

Seeker..forgiven instantly...wanna swap places? Here in Hull tis dull and instead of summer sunshine we keep having muggy endless days of grey skies and thundery type weather. Keep riding the waves!

I completely agree with you that Eliphaz seems to have been visited by the devil - I didn't say that I thought Eliphaz had become demonic and am sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. I understand about the evil spirit troubling Saul too and agree with you that he wasn't 'possessed' only visited at times. I think that your statement that Eliphaz had information from a bad source but was trying to help his friend just about sums up chapter 4.

Robert Sutherla

08-07-2004, 07:03 PM

Miranda and seeker:

Job 4:3-6 reads "See, you have instructed many; you have strengthened the weak hands. Your words have supported those who were stumbling, and you have made firm the feeble knees. But now it has come to you, and you are dismayed. Is not your fear of God your confidence, and the integrity of your ways your hope?" (NRSV)

I like the christological implications. You saved others; you cannot save yourself?

Is Job's trial the salvation of God? If so, what is God saved from?

seeker

08-08-2004, 11:07 AM

1 "Call if you will, but who will answer you?
To which of the holy ones will you turn?
2 Resentment kills a fool,
and envy slays the simple.
3 I myself have seen a fool taking root,
but suddenly his house was cursed.
4 His children are far from safety,
crushed in court without a defender.
5 The hungry consume his harvest,
taking it even from among thorns,
and the thirsty pant after his wealth.
6 For hardship does not spring from the soil,
nor does trouble sprout from the ground.
7 Yet man is born to trouble
as surely as sparks fly upward.

8 "But if it were I, I would appeal to God;
I would lay my cause before him.
9 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
10 He bestows rain on the earth;
he sends water upon the countryside.
11 The lowly he sets on high,
and those who mourn are lifted to safety.
12 He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success.
13 He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away.
14 Darkness comes upon them in the daytime;
at noon they grope as in the night.
15 He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth;
he saves them from the clutches of the powerful.
16 So the poor have hope,
and injustice shuts its mouth.

17 "Blessed is the man whom God corrects;
so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty. [1]
18 For he wounds, but he also binds up;
he injures, but his hands also heal.
19 From six calamities he will rescue you;
in seven no harm will befall you.
20 In famine he will ransom you from death,
and in battle from the stroke of the sword.
21 You will be protected from the lash of the tongue,
and need not fear when destruction comes.
22 You will laugh at destruction and famine,
and need not fear the beasts of the earth.
23 For you will have a covenant with the stones of the field,
and the wild animals will be at peace with you.
24 You will know that your tent is secure;
you will take stock of your property and find nothing missing.
25 You will know that your children will be many,
and your descendants like the grass of the earth.
26 You will come to the grave in full vigor,
like sheaves gathered in season.

27 "We have examined this, and it is true.
So hear it and apply it to yourself."

Sorry, the waves are still pumping ( :thumbs_up ), ill be back tomorrow!

Robert Sutherla

08-08-2004, 01:07 PM

Seeker:

1. Scholars note the mythological allusion in Job 5:6-7.

(a) It picks up on Genesis imagery. The word for man there is "adam" (Adam), not "ish" (man). Adam is born to experience "adal" (trouble). There is a definite wordplay on "adam" and "adal".

(b) And it picks up on Canaanite imagery. The word for sparks is "sons of Reshef". It is now almost universally regarded as a reference to the Canaanite Lord of the Underworld. He is the god of the arrow, pestilence and death. Eliphaz is saying that when Adam sinned it let loose a demonic horde to plague the earth. Bildad will continue the Canaanite imagery later with his description of Reshef as the "firstborn of Death" (a kind of son of Satan) and "king of terrors" (the head of all the demons of the Canaanite underworld). (Job 18:13-14)

(c) Job will later apply all this imagery to God, calling him Reshef, the Lord of the Underworld.

2. Eliphaz describes the evil that befell Job as punishment (Job 5:7) and as correction (Job 5:17) The two ideas are contradictory. The first puts a gulf between man and God. The second binds them together.

3. Eliphaz affirms God's authorship of evil. (Job 5:18)

(a) His words find parallels in the Old Testament: "I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal" (Deuteronomy 32:39) and "He has torn, that he may heal us; he has striken, and he will bind us up." (Hosea 6:1)

(b) His words find a very interesting parallel in an Akkadian text from Canaanite Ugarit called "The Righteous Sufferer". "I praise the work of Marduk. I praise the work of my angry god, I praise the work of my wrathful goddess...He smote me and took pity on me; he has cut me in pieces and torn me away; he has dissolved me, and he has gathered me. He rejected me, and he has welcomed me, he has abandoned me and he has exalted me."

4. Eliphaz asked "can a man be righteous before God?" (Job 4:17) The real question is "can a man find God wonderful in all that he does?" (Job 42:3-4)

seeker

08-09-2004, 07:03 PM

I myself have seen a fool taking root,
but suddenly his house was cursed.

It looks like he is now saying "Yeah, I saw this coming Job!". Just though it interesting to mention.

I see what you mean in the contradictories in his speech. In the beginging of his speech he is saying how Job must have sinned because God is puinishing him, and later he is telling him that he will be safe if he only trusts in God.

This character Eliaphaz sounds like the kind of person who will walk up to you when you are going through trouble believeing he is helping you by telling you that he saw all this coming, and then giving you bad advice, because "if it were I, I would..." (because he would do such and such if it were him).

.. sound like my stepmother...

Job still hold on to his righteousness by not cursing God, but I am not sure if he considers Him wonderful anymore.

Robert Sutherla

08-09-2004, 07:50 PM

Seeker:

Watch what happens with the words and images in later speeches. These are a few to watch:

fear" and "integrity" (Job 4:6),
"innocent" (Job 4:7),
"lion" (Job 4:10-11),
"dread" and trembling" (Job 4:14,
"righteous" and "pure" (Job 4:17),
"cause" (Job 5:8)
"great things unsearchable, marvelous things without wonder" (Job 5:8-9) "wise" (Job 5:13)

Watch who repeats what and how it changes what has been said and foreshadows what is to be said. It is especially interesting to note that virtually all the words and images used by one of the speakers is repeated by God. God adds virtually nothing new.

A lot of the book is integrated not by logic (the speakers rarely respond to each other's argument) but by language (the speakers rework each other's words and images).

Eliphaz finds God wonderful in all he does, but does he have any real idea of what God has done or is doing, in Job's life or in the world? I wonder how many believers are in his shoes.

seeker

08-18-2004, 05:59 PM

Job

1 Then Job replied:

2 "If only my anguish could be weighed
and all my misery be placed on the scales!
3 It would surely outweigh the sand of the seas-
no wonder my words have been impetuous.
4 The arrows of the Almighty are in me,
my spirit drinks in their poison;
God's terrors are marshaled against me.
5 Does a wild donkey bray when it has grass,
or an ox bellow when it has fodder?
6 Is tasteless food eaten without salt,
or is there flavor in the white of an egg?
7 I refuse to touch it;
such food makes me ill.

8 "Oh, that I might have my request,
that God would grant what I hope for,
9 that God would be willing to crush me,
to let loose his hand and cut me off!
10 Then I would still have this consolation-
my joy in unrelenting pain-
that I had not denied the words of the Holy One.

11 "What strength do I have, that I should still hope?
What prospects, that I should be patient?
12 Do I have the strength of stone?
Is my flesh bronze?
13 Do I have any power to help myself,
now that success has been driven from me?

14 "A despairing man should have the devotion of his friends,
even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.
15 But my brothers are as undependable as intermittent streams,
as the streams that overflow
16 when darkened by thawing ice
and swollen with melting snow,
17 but that cease to flow in the dry season,
and in the heat vanish from their channels.
18 Caravans turn aside from their routes;
they go up into the wasteland and perish.
19 The caravans of Tema look for water,
the traveling merchants of Sheba look in hope.
20 They are distressed, because they had been confident;
they arrive there, only to be disappointed.
21 Now you too have proved to be of no help;
you see something dreadful and are afraid.
22 Have I ever said, 'Give something on my behalf,
pay a ransom for me from your wealth,
23 deliver me from the hand of the enemy,
ransom me from the clutches of the ruthless'?

24 "Teach me, and I will be quiet;
show me where I have been wrong.
25 How painful are honest words!
But what do your arguments prove?
26 Do you mean to correct what I say,
and treat the words of a despairing man as wind?
27 You would even cast lots for the fatherless
and barter away your friend.

28 "But now be so kind as to look at me.
Would I lie to your face?
29 Relent, do not be unjust;
reconsider, for my integrity is at stake.
30 Is there any wickedness on my lips?
Can my mouth not discern malice?

sorry i fell behind, First days of school hit me hard.

actually htey havnt stopped, please post on, I will be back later when the pain stops!

seeker

08-18-2004, 05:59 PM

Job

1 Then Job replied:

2 "If only my anguish could be weighed
and all my misery be placed on the scales!
3 It would surely outweigh the sand of the seas-
no wonder my words have been impetuous.
4 The arrows of the Almighty are in me,
my spirit drinks in their poison;
God's terrors are marshaled against me.
5 Does a wild donkey bray when it has grass,
or an ox bellow when it has fodder?
6 Is tasteless food eaten without salt,
or is there flavor in the white of an egg?
7 I refuse to touch it;
such food makes me ill.

8 "Oh, that I might have my request,
that God would grant what I hope for,
9 that God would be willing to crush me,
to let loose his hand and cut me off!
10 Then I would still have this consolation-
my joy in unrelenting pain-
that I had not denied the words of the Holy One.

11 "What strength do I have, that I should still hope?
What prospects, that I should be patient?
12 Do I have the strength of stone?
Is my flesh bronze?
13 Do I have any power to help myself,
now that success has been driven from me?

14 "A despairing man should have the devotion of his friends,
even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.
15 But my brothers are as undependable as intermittent streams,
as the streams that overflow
16 when darkened by thawing ice
and swollen with melting snow,
17 but that cease to flow in the dry season,
and in the heat vanish from their channels.
18 Caravans turn aside from their routes;
they go up into the wasteland and perish.
19 The caravans of Tema look for water,
the traveling merchants of Sheba look in hope.
20 They are distressed, because they had been confident;
they arrive there, only to be disappointed.
21 Now you too have proved to be of no help;
you see something dreadful and are afraid.
22 Have I ever said, 'Give something on my behalf,
pay a ransom for me from your wealth,
23 deliver me from the hand of the enemy,
ransom me from the clutches of the ruthless'?

24 "Teach me, and I will be quiet;
show me where I have been wrong.
25 How painful are honest words!
But what do your arguments prove?
26 Do you mean to correct what I say,
and treat the words of a despairing man as wind?
27 You would even cast lots for the fatherless
and barter away your friend.

28 "But now be so kind as to look at me.
Would I lie to your face?
29 Relent, do not be unjust;
reconsider, for my integrity is at stake.
30 Is there any wickedness on my lips?
Can my mouth not discern malice?

sorry i fell behind, First days of school hit me hard.

actually they havnt stopped, please post on, I will be back later when the pain stops!

Robert Sutherla

08-19-2004, 01:56 PM

seeker:

A number of scholars note the mythological allusion in Job 6:4.

“For the first time, Job explicitly names God as the ultimate (and immediate) cause of his suffering…The fact remains that his experience of Shaddai is poles apart from Eliphaz’s “research” and “hearsay”. This Respheph is known in a Cypriote inscription as “Respheh of the arrow” (Corpus Inscriptionum Semitarcum) [Paris Imprimerie Nationale, 1881]…As god of the underworld, he commands the allegiance of demons, here known as the “terrors” (cf. on 18:11-14) and like Apollo, to whom he corresponds, spreads diseases as arrows from his bow. God is of course, for Job, not Resheph; yet he acts like him. Elsewhere too in the OT, elements of this mythological correspondence appear; for the image of humans as targets of the archer god, see 7:20; 16:12-13; Deut. 32:33…32:42; Ps 7:13-14; 38:3; 64:8; Lam 2:4; 3:12-13; Ezek 5:16 (“arrows of famine”)”” D.Clines, Job 1-20 Word Biblical Commentary, p.170-171

“Job responds that he is suffering at the hands, not of a disciplining divine father, but of Shaddai, the Archer (cf. 16:9). In the light of the earlier allusion to 5:2 it seems that the designation of Shaddai as the archer is a veiled reference back to Reshef in 5:7. Reshef, the Canaanite god of pestilence(see on 5:7) bears the epithet of the Archer…His arrows produce disease in the same way that Apollo’s stinging arrows cause plagues (Illiad I, 45ff)….For Job, however, it is Shaddai who plays the role of Reshef the Archer, not in order to chastise as Yahweh may do, but to inflict poisonous arrows as a hunter firing on his prey. Job is the innocent victim and Shaddai is the malicious foe, an accusation which later provokes Elihu to leap to his God’s defense (34:6).” Habel, Old Testament Library: Job, p. 145

seeker

08-29-2004, 07:20 AM

1 "Does not man have hard service on earth?
Are not his days like those of a hired man?
2 Like a slave longing for the evening shadows,
or a hired man waiting eagerly for his wages,
3 so I have been allotted months of futility,
and nights of misery have been assigned to me.
4 When I lie down I think, 'How long before I get up?'
The night drags on, and I toss till dawn.
5 My body is clothed with worms and scabs,
my skin is broken and festering.

6 "My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle,
and they come to an end without hope.
7 Remember, O God, that my life is but a breath;
my eyes will never see happiness again.
8 The eye that now sees me will see me no longer;
you will look for me, but I will be no more.
9 As a cloud vanishes and is gone,
so he who goes down to the grave [1] does not return.
10 He will never come to his house again;
his place will know him no more.

11 "Therefore I will not keep silent;
I will speak out in the anguish of my spirit,
I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
12 Am I the sea, or the monster of the deep,
that you put me under guard?
13 When I think my bed will comfort me
and my couch will ease my complaint,
14 even then you frighten me with dreams
and terrify me with visions,
15 so that I prefer strangling and death,
rather than this body of mine.
16 I despise my life; I would not live forever.
Let me alone; my days have no meaning.

17 "What is man that you make so much of him,
that you give him so much attention,
18 that you examine him every morning
and test him every moment?
19 Will you never look away from me,
or let me alone even for an instant?
20 If I have sinned, what have I done to you,
O watcher of men?
Why have you made me your target?
Have I become a burden to you? [2]
21 Why do you not pardon my offenses
and forgive my sins?
For I will soon lie down in the dust;
you will search for me, but I will be no more."

new chapter

sorry i have been lax in posting, I still enjoy reading your posts Robert and Miranda; i have been sick and school just started so i mam swamped. I hope to be back soon.

Robert Sutherla

08-29-2004, 08:13 PM

1. Job’s comparison of himself to the “Sea or the Dragon” (Job 7:5 NRSV) raises some interesting and ironic questions. The Sea and the Dragon are names for the ancient Near Eastern monster that threatens to overthrow the moral order in creation itself. Job has already referred to that mythical being (Job 3:8) in his first speech. Here it is in his second speech. Job is a monotheist. He doesn’t literally believe in the existence of such a being, but it is powerful rhetoric.

(a) Is Job a potential chaos monster? Does Job really have the ability to destroy God’s plan in the creation of man? I think he does. If he is the best mankind has to offer (Job 1:1,8,2:3) and he turns against God, then is not God’s plan in the creation of man destroyed? Even without such a rebellion, Job is a potential threat to the existence of God.

“If Job is the one clear and verifiable example of an innocent individual abused by God’s arbitrary acts, then Job would represent living proof that God’s righteousness, a righteousness on which the cosmos itself is founded, is apparently fickle. Job would then be tantamount to Leviathan.” Norman Habel, Old Testament Library: Job, p. 162.

(b) Is that why God refers to Leviathan (Isaiah’s name for the chaos monster) so much in his final speech to Job? (Job 40:1-41:34) Is God responding to Job in that final speech with same mythical language?

2. What do you think Job’s disease was? Any modern equivalents?

3. The reader should not misread Job 7:20 NRSV. “If I sin, what do I do to you, you watcher of humanity?” Job is not confessing sin here.

“The expression ‘Assume I sin” (hata’ti) establishes a hypothetical context which makes possible Job’s mock demand for pardon which follows (v.21). Job, of course, contends throughout that he is quite innocent (e.g., 12:4; 27:2-6) Here he is only postulating sinfulness as a means of provoking an alien deity. By proposing that Job’s actions might injure God in some way, Job is reiterating the earlier theme of his earthly presence as a threat to God’s world order.” Norman Habel, Old Testament Library: Job, p. 165.

Does Job say anything in this speech that is sinful?

Robert Sutherla

08-31-2004, 02:09 PM

In understanding Job's apparent sinlessness, it may be helpful to appreciate Aquinas' understanding of original sin.

(1) Prior to the fall, Aquinas says man possessed three things: (a) an ordinary human nature, consisting of the potentialities for body and soul, intellect and free-will; (b) certain 'preternatural' gifts, consisting of the complete actualization of all human potentials and the freedom from disease, suffering and death. Man's reason perfectly ruled his passions. Each was properly ordered and proportioned to the other. The name for this relationship between reason and passion is 'original justice', because it describes the 'fitting' relationship of reason and passion. It is occasionally called 'moral integrity' because reason and passion are properly integrated when reason rules passion. Reason is this context is not understood narrowly as a sterile form of intellectuality, but broadly as a form of common sense that integrates all the spiritual, intellectual, and emotional aspects of a human being. (c) Certain 'supernatural' gifts, consisting of a knowledge of God's essence.

(2) If man had continued in obedience, these gifts would have been made part of his human nature. If he did not, they would not. After the fall, man lost two out of the three things. He lost his preternatural and supernatural gifts, but retained his ordinary human nature. The name for these two types of gifts was sanctifying grace. It was called 'sanctifying' because it made man ready for heaven. All that was needed was obedience. Original sin is the loss of these gifts. The essence of original sin is the loss of that original justice.

(3) The transmission of original sin is transmission of that loss. Adam's descendents lack these gifts. What is transmitted is not a habit of sinning, but the lack of a divinely infused habit of complete self-control that might prevent sinning. A child born in original sin is merely born without the perfect self-control typical of a mature adult human being completely submissive to God. Self-control, the subordination of passion to reason, must be learned through trial and error.

(4) This lack of self-control, a lack of the passions being subordinate to reason, might be defined as a predisposition to sin, since it makes sinning more likely. But it is not properly defined as a habit of sinning. Habits of sinning are formed through actual sins not through original sin. This lack of lack of self-control at the moment of birth is not itself sinful. No blame, shame or guilty attaches to the fact that human beings are born that way.

(5) This understanding of original sin makes sinlessness difficult for all human beings but not impossible. Jesus is said to be one such human being who, through a continuous reliance on God, led a sinless life. Job may be presented as another such human being. In any event, God provides all human beings with sufficient common grace to do all that he requires of them.

Aquinas, Thomas, Summa Theologica:Volume 2 Trans. Fathers of the English Dominican Province (Christian Classics, Westminister, 1948) Part 1-11, Question 82, Article 3, p. 958.

C.Rice, 50 Questions on the Natural Law: What It Is and Why We Need It (Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1995) p. 159-163.