Che Guevara

[bazarov]

I am curious: why are people, and especially youth fascinated with Che Guevara? He is their hero; they say. In todays world, he would be considered as a dangerous terrorist...I saw here also some Che fans; so can somebody explain it to me?

[Bakiryu]

I've no idea. In my country the government forces children to learn about him from very early stages. It's just past of the Marxist ideology and political claptrap they force you to swallow :rage:

[samercury]

Who? :confused:

[Bakiryu]

This dude: http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w76/mylostapologies/che-guevara.jpg

[Lily Adams]

He's a symbol for anyone who wants to overthrow the United States. He hated the U.S. I could really say a lot more but politics is a no-no here on LitNet.

[Bakiryu]

He's a symbol for anyone who wants to overthrow the United States. He hated the U.S. I could really say a lot more but politics is a no-no here on LitNet.

Oh! So that's why!

:p

[Divine Comedy]

Apart from the fact that he is a political icon. I would like to tell you that he made Bandana wearing a fashion statement. So when a person offers idealogies, attitude and fashion through his life youth gets attracted to them. Basically youngsters like to rebel and rebel was his life's statement. So kinda deriving that thats why younsters are a great fan of this DUDE!!!

[Virgil]

I don't think this is political but informative as to who Gueavara actually was. It was an article from last Christmas commenting on the fact that young people ignorantly buy his image not even knowing what he stood for. Since I don't want to paste the entire article for copywright reasons, I'll snip relavant parts.


Che, Cuba and Christmas
Target becomes a target of the Guevara myth.

BY MARY ANASTASIA O'GRADY
Monday, December 25, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

Until last Thursday Christmas shoppers at Target department stores could purchase a 24-CD carrying case decorated with the image of Che Guevara. When I heard about it, I wondered why the retailer would want to promote the memory of a mass murderer. What's next, I asked, when I spoke with a representative of the company on Wednesday, Pol Pot pajamas?

Late Wednesday evening Target sent me this statement: "It is never our intent to offend any of our guests through the merchandise we carry. We have made the decision to remove this item from our shelves and we sincerely apologize for any discomfort this situation may have caused our guests."

That it took only a day for Target to make that admirable decision suggests that at least someone at the company knows who Guevara was and what Cuba is today thanks in part to him. The misstep, though, probably occurred because others at the company allowed Target to become a target itself of the Che myth.

Guevara is not just a dead white guy from a well-to-do family who terrorized a racially mixed nation and executed hundreds of innocents in the late 1950s and 1960s. He is also a symbol of the totalitarian regime that persists in Cuba, which still practices his ideology of intolerance, hatred and repression. It is not the torture and killing alone that make the tragedy. That only describes the methodology. Guevara's wider goal--to forcibly strip a population of its soul and spirit--is what is truly frightening and deplorable. Christians, who celebrate the birth of their Savior today, have particularly suffered under Guevara's dream of revolution, which has lasted since 1959. [SNIP]
and

Peruvian-born Alvaro Vargas Llosa penned his own book this year titled "The Che Guevara Myth." Mr. Vargas Llosa documents a twisted life, such as when Che shot a comrade and made the following entry in his diary: "I ended the problem with a .32 caliber pistol, in the right side of his brain. . . . His belongings were now mine." After that, Mr. Vargas Llosa says, Guevara shot "a peasant who expressed the desire to leave whenever the rebels moved on." Guevara also liked to simulate executions, as a form of torture. "At every stage of his adult life, his megalomania manifested itself in the predatory urge to take over other people's lives and property, and to abolish their free will."

Guevara was an architect of Cuba's forced labor camps, which by 1965 were transformed into concentration camps for dissidents, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Cubans of other religious sects, homosexuals and later people with AIDS,. [SNIP]

http://www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110009432

This is who Che is, a murdering bastard.

[Guzmán]

I am curious: why are people, and especially youth fascinated with Che Guevara? He is their hero; they say. In todays world, he would be considered as a dangerous terrorist...I saw here also some Che fans; so can somebody explain it to me?

Maybe today's world is a bit different than el che's world. I don't think it makes sense to say he hated the United States, i think he hated US foreign policy and the capitalist ideology. I also heard somewhere that there's a difference between what el che did (guerrilla warfare i think is the term) and terrorism, in the way they handle civilians. Then again im not too sure about this...

While im not a supporter of his ideology nor his actions (regardless of the fact that i guess i would have supported anyone who had wanted to overthrow Batista) i can see why he's admired and seen as an icon. Maybe its part of the romanticism that lies behind a revolution... i dont know. One thing that there's to admire is that, for instance, although he suffered of asthma all his life, he had enough willpower to accomplish many physical feats, since he exceled as an athlete: maybe its that willpower and that moving force that young people admire, the whole motorcycle cigar thing etc.

I guess a whole other part of the coin is difficult to see if you were raised in the states, for that matter. For those of us who live in south american countries that endured long periods of right wing dictatorship, its a completely different picture i guess.

[Bakiryu]

*gasp!* Cuba has forced labor camps?!

[Logos]

oops, sorry! I meant to post to this last night and forgot :blush:

Just a warning ... please do not get into discussing current politics.

[Granny5]

I watched a movie about Che's life and he was some depicted as a victim of Castro's. I was thinking at the time that the story didn't mesh with what I remembered and what I had learned in school. I don't think he was a hero unless you have some really hateful and anti human ideas.

[papayahed]

I watched a movie about Che's life and he was some depicted as a victim of Castro's. I was thinking at the time that the story didn't mesh with what I remembered and what I had learned in school. I don't think he was a hero unless you have some really hateful and anti human ideas.

Was it Motorcycle Diaries? That movie depicted Che as a great guy, of course it stopped just after his road trip when he was a young man.

I read his biography and what I got out of it was that he was a "hanger on" without Castro he was pretty ineffectual as a revolutionary.

[Granny5]

I don't think it was Motorcycle Diaries. It told of him going to Africa after Castro was in power and I think South America. I really didn't pay much attention to it because I felt like it was so fictionalized. But whoever played Che was a cutie.

I googled it and it was a 2005 movie titled Che Guevara writen and directed by Josh Evans. The lead was played by Eduardo Noriega. Very pretty guy.:blush:

[Mark F.]

Poor guy, must be rolling over in his grave since he became such a trendy print to have on a t shirt. A great example of how good capitalism is at assimilating it's enemies.

[Bakiryu]

Guevara doesn't have an A on it. It's misspelled Bazarov.

[bazarov]

Guevara doesn't have an A on it. It's misspelled Bazarov.

What...OOOOps! Yes, I didn't realize that! Sorry!:sick:

Thread reopened! Yes!

[bazarov]

Poor guy, must be rolling over in his grave since he became such a trendy print to have on a t shirt. A great example of how good capitalism is at assimilating it's enemies.

So we can expect Marx and Engels on t-shirts all over the world? :D

MY 1000th POST!

[amalia1985]

To me, Che is a Christ-like figure of the 20th century.

[Niamh]

I think a lot of people saw him as a hero of some sorts. *Shrugs*
Heres some info on him curtesy of Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_guevara

[Oniw17]

Most people with Che shirts don't even know who he was. The one's who do are most often socialists. It's that simple.

[amalia1985]

Most people with Che shirts don't even know who he was. The one's who do are most often socialists. It's that simple.



This is very true. In my university, we have many of those guys...But although I admire Che very much, I am not a socialist.

[Oniw17]

This is very true. In my university, we have many of those guys...But although I admire Che very much, I am not a socialist.

I'm the same way, that's why I said most often.

[Granny5]

Just out of curiosity, what do you admire about him?

[amalia1985]

Yes, I agree.

[amalia1985]

His world-views, his commitment to his course, the fact that he gave up the ministry-position in the government, when he saw the first hints of the future corruption. At least, that is how I see it. I am not a left-wing or right-wing person, I just consider myself political, democratic, to use the Greek word. But I think politics are not allowed, so I cannot say more.

[NickAdams]

My wife has t-shirts with his face on it. She is a pacifist and doesn't agree with a lot of his tactics. Why does she represent him? She says she's a socialist and I guess that is reason enough for her. I say socialism and communism is like a hot mouth: it breeds bacteria. *I don't believe that comment references any current mainstream poitical movements. Let me know if I should remove it.*

I can't wait to see the two new movies with Benicio Del Toro as Che.

[Virgil]

This is very true. In my university, we have many of those guys...But although I admire Che very much, I am not a socialist.


His world-views, his commitment to his course, the fact that he gave up the ministry-position in the government, when he saw the first hints of the future corruption. At least, that is how I see it. I am not a left-wing or right-wing person, I just consider myself political, democratic, to use the Greek word. But I think politics are not allowed, so I cannot say more.

Let me understand this, you're not a socialist but you like his world views. Huh?? His world view was universal communism. So either you're a communist (stipulating a distinction between socialism and communism, whatever that might be) or I don't think you understand what you're talking about.

Actually you said ealier that you regard this murdering bastard as a Christ figure. Huh??? I didn't know that Christ resorted to murder and concentration camps to get his way.

[papayahed]

Actually you said ealier that you regard this murdering bastard as a Christ figure.

Oh, I forgot about that - and wanted to ask: In which way is Che Christ-like? It's a very bold statement.

[Virgil]

To me, Che is a Christ-like figure of the 20th century.


Oh, I forgot about that - and wanted to ask: In which way is Che Christ-like? It's a very bold statement.

Just for the record Papaya, that wasn't me who made that statement. I don't wish to have anyone misunderstand and think I said such a horrific statement.

[papayahed]

Just for the record Papaya, that wasn't me who made that statement. I don't wish to have anyone misunderstand and think I said such a horrific statement.

I know you didn't say it but you reminded me of it and I'm sure there's a good reason / point of view by the poster that made the statemnt.

[bazarov]

Let me understand this, you're not a socialist but you like his world views. Huh?? His world view was universal communism. So either you're a communist (stipulating a distinction between socialism and communism, whatever that might be) or I don't think you understand what you're talking about.

Actually you said ealier that you regard this murdering bastard as a Christ figure. Huh??? I didn't know that Christ resorted to murder and concentration camps to get his way.


I agree with everything Don Virgil said; except one thing: there is a difference between socialism and communism. They are almost always hand in hand but there is a difference.

[manolia]

To Virgil:
Hehe Virgil don't get upset. In every issue there are always two sides.
You don't have to be a communist or a socialist to admire che. He did much for his people in helping to overthrow batista (the dictator). He had a vision to unite the latin american population and free them from their bonds and help solve the hunger problem. That's what history says.
I don't consider him a Christ like figure of course! Every historical figure who tried to change the system has spilled much blood in order to do so (i have been reading "Crime and punishment" lately, one of the best books i've read in my life and there is a very interesting chapter where it says exactly so.)
Even when a leader is trying to establish democracy (and not communism as was in che's case) too much blood is spilled. You can't have a great change without human casualties..this is a human tragedy of course. I won't give you any examples..i am sure you are quite well read in history and you know many.

So, to sum up, i am sure that Che is being admired by his own people. As for the rest of the world..i don't know..it depends to where you have grown up i guess ;) . But i certainly don't put him in the same league with Stalin!


I agree with everything Don Virgil said; except one thing: there is a difference between socialism and communism. They are almost always hand in hand but there is a difference.

Oh well..there is a difference between communism and socialism but that would be a very boring discussion ;) :lol:

[bazarov]

Hehe Virgil don't get upset. In every issue there are always two sides.

It's hard to stay calm when you are really surprised with others opinion.:)


So, to sum up, i am sure that Che is being admired by his own people. As for the rest of the world..i don't know..it depends to where you have grown up i guess ;) . But i certainly don't put him in the same league with Stalin!

The problem is that numerous of non Cubans admires Che.
And Stalin is a league of his own.



Oh well..there is a difference between communism and socialism but that would be a very boring discussion ;) :lol:
No need to discuss it, just pointing it. I am sure Don Virgil knows the difference.

[amalia1985]

I understand what I am talking about excellently well. I have my own personal views on the matter, I'm not obliged to agree with you, and any case, I can't express myself further, without becoming political, something that is forbidden here. My views on Christ is different than yours, and that's all. I am neither a socialist, nor a communist, I am not a person that gives "titles" and "divisions" to people, nor do I accept them. I admire any person that went and goes against oppressive systems and policies, and that is called "freedom", not communism. Be more polite with other people that does not agree with you, please. Thank you.

[manolia]

It's hard to stay calm when you are really surprised with others opinion.:)

That's why i always say "Ataraxia" :lol:



The problem is that numerous of non Cubans admires Che.
And Stalin is a league of his own.

I don't see it as a problem.
There are people who admire Britney Spears :lol: :lol:

[amalia1985]

Yes, exactly, Manolia. There are also others who admire Hitler and his tactics, as well.

[NikolaiI]

I only know a little bit about Che- Wasn't he mentioned in "The Tree of Red Stars"? And the Tupamarros? Or am I getting confused? (dun need a history lesson, I'll look it up on wiki right now as well)


Haha we all admire Hitler for his physical prowess: addicted to cocaine and all sorts of barbiturates, or else he couldn't sleep. :lol:

And by the way, has anyone else read "The Tree of Red Stars"?

(ah, well, er, tupamaros were in venezuela...[the same place devendra's from!!!], not cuba)

[bazarov]

I understand what I am talking about excellently well. I have my own personal views on the matter, I'm not obliged to agree with you, and any case, I can't express myself further, without becoming political, something that is forbidden here. My views on Christ is different than yours, and that's all. I am neither a socialist, nor a communist, I am not a person that gives "titles" and "divisions" to people, nor do I accept them. I admire any person that went and goes against oppressive systems and policies, and that is called "freedom", not communism. Be more polite with other people that does not agree with you, please. Thank you.

Everyone here is polite and respects your opinion, but your ideas are maybe little strange to some of us we would like to discuss about that, no reason to be angry. :thumbs_up

That's why i always say "Ataraxia" :lol:
This won't mess my Atarxian peace :lol: :lol:


I don't see it as a problem.
There are people who admire Britney Spears :lol: :lol:

I don't have nothing against Cubans who admires Che, I can understand that; but some people outside of Cuba, who should be objective, shouldn't be fascinated with Che. That's the problem! Russians love Lenin, he made them free, but you and I can say that who was also crazy.

Britney...De gustibus est non disputandum!


Yes, exactly, Manolia. There are also others who admire Hitler and his tactics, as well.

That's also wrong. Hope you're aware of that.

[amalia1985]

I am very well aware of that, you know. I visit Germany quite often, and you can see many Hitler afficionados, who obviously hadn't read their history lesson well.

[papayahed]

Everyone here is polite and respects your opinion, but your ideas are maybe little strange to some of us we would like to discuss about that, no reason to be angry. :thumbs_up


:eek:




I don't have nothing against Cubans who admires Che, I can understand that; but some people outside of Cuba, who should be objective, shouldn't be fascinated with Che. That's the problem! Russians love Lenin, he made them free, but you and I can say that who was also crazy.

Why shouldn't people outside Cuba be fascinated by Che? Good or Bad he is an interesting character. What annoys me is that people that wear the Tshirts don't know all the facts. I was in a smoke shop once and they had a huge picture of Che smoking a cigar, I asked why they had the pic and they said because it was a cool pic of a cigar:( - sheesh know who's on your wall!!!

[NikolaiI]

Che seems like a fascinating person, having read a little bit about him. There's just something in his eye, that draws you to him. I admire him because he tried to help, and gave a whole lot- his whole life, right?- for his causes.

I had a book with Marx's writings, but passed it on to my dad before reading it...but I always thought communism was good? Yes, it failed in practice, but take for instance the library- that is a socialist idea, right?

[manolia]

Britney...De gustibus est non disputandum!

:lol: I feel very proud that i actually understood that :lol:





Why shouldn't people outside Cuba be fascinated by Che? Good or Bad he is an interesting character. What annoys me is that people that wear the Tshirts don't know all the facts. I was in a smoke shop once and they had a huge picture of Che smoking a cigar, I asked why they had the pic and they said because it was a cool pic of a cigar:( - sheesh know who's on your wall!!!

:thumbs_up Totally agree.
The people that wear the T-shirts annoy me very much ;)
And also the fact that a historical figure is used that way annoys me too.



I am very well aware of that, you know. I visit Germany quite often, and you can see many Hitler afficionados, who obviously hadn't read their history lesson well.

Hmmmm..i don't know about that..my boyfriend is half german and has a very different opinion about that. His mom, a very nice german lady changes colour when the name "Hitler" is mentioned. So i believe the majority do know ;) Besides you can find Hitler admirers everywhere these days. My belief is that the smallest percentage possible can be found in Germany ;) .

[bazarov]

:eek:
Is that good or bad?



Why shouldn't people outside Cuba be fascinated by Che?
Because he is responsible for death of hundreds and hundreds; and those were not war victims, they were executed.
Totally agree about T-shirt thing.

Manolia, I knew you would!

[Virgil]

To Virgil:
Hehe Virgil don't get upset. In every issue there are always two sides.

Oh I'm not upset. ;) But there does seem to be a disconnect here.


You don't have to be a communist or a socialist to admire che. He did much for his people in helping to overthrow batista (the dictator). He had a vision to unite the latin american population and free them from their bonds and help solve the hunger problem.
And here perhaps is part of the disconnect. Free his people? The last time I checked Cuba was not free. What freedom did he provide. He replaced one dictator with another, created concentration camps, and executed anyone who dared to speak up. That is what history says. Solved hunger problems? Do yuou know what the standard of living is in Cuba today? Do you know that ordinary people risk their lives on rafts to try to cross to the US? Their economy plumetted after Castro took over. Throughout the sixties through the eighties their economy was subsidized by the Soviet Union who did what they could to prop them up. Once the Soviets collasped and no more subsidies to Cuba, they have been struggling to put basic food on the table. Here read this: http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagjr002.php. I don't know what history you have read or been taught, but I went to school with several Cubans, and they set me straight on this idolitry of a murdering bastard.

[manolia]

And here perhaps is part of the disconnect. Free his people? The last time I checked Cuba was not free. What freedom did he provide. He replaced one dictator with another, created concentration camps, and executed anyone who dared to speak up. That is what history says. Solved hunger problems? Do yuou know what the standard of living is in Cuba today? Do you know that ordinary people risk their lives on rafts to try to cross to the US? Their economy plumetted after Castro took over. Throughout the sixties through the eighties their economy was subsidized by the Soviet Union who did what they could to prop them up. Once the Soviets collasped and no more subsidies to Cuba, they have been struggling to put basic food on the table. Here read this: http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagjr002.php. I don't know what history you have read or been taught, but I went to school with several Cubans, and they set me straight on this idolitry of a murdering bastard.

Nice you brought the wolfy back! That parrot was very odd!

No we aren't taught anything about Cuba ;) All i know about this country is what i have read in the papers or in the net ;)
I have never been there or met Cuban people as you did ;) . All i know is that you can't compare their standard of living with ours or yours or whatever since we are talking about different economy systems ;) that give different things to their people. I know for instance that they don't have to pay for their education or for their medicines e.t.c. As for their hunger problem, i know it isn't solved (i didn't say it is ;) ). But isn't there the embargo part of their problem?
Anyway, i have no intention to deffend Cuba, since i don't agree with their system ;) I wanted to point out that people form latin America may have different feelings concerning Che and that it is very normal from a person from the U.S (or elsewhere) to disagree.

[vheissu]

Poor guy, must be rolling over in his grave since he became such a trendy print to have on a t shirt. A great example of how good capitalism is at assimilating it's enemies.

I second that and here is a rather good link (to me at least:http://www.time.com/time/time100/heroes/profile/guevara01.html)

I do believe that Che's real life has become more of a myth, and that's quite scary, how historical facts can be changed to conform today's views, in such a short period of time.
He does symbolise the essence of a rebellious and revolutionary character, a hero practically, and that's probably why his image can still be seen around and is practically used as an advertisment tool.

My next statement might be a bit bold and I do know of his not so good actions, but if Che's image, taken as a revolutionary figure, not historical one (because then the real facts have to be mentioned), is taken away, then there will surely be someone else who will be 'immortalized' (for lack of a better word) and seen on t-shirts or the front of cups.

If there is one thing that I think can be seen as a good side of Che's image is that sometimes it does remind us that (political) revolution is a lot better than comlying to anything without a second thought.

And again, that's my opinion. I think everyone has their role figure to look up to once in a while!

To make it clear, I don't admire Che or have his poster hanging on my wall. I have Johnny Depp instead ;)

[Bakiryu]

Oh I'm not upset. ;) But there does seem to be a disconnect here.


And here perhaps is part of the disconnect. Free his people? The last time I checked Cuba was not free. What freedom did he provide. He replaced one dictator with another, created concentration camps, and executed anyone who dared to speak up. That is what history says. Solved hunger problems? Do yuou know what the standard of living is in Cuba today? Do you know that ordinary people risk their lives on rafts to try to cross to the US? Their economy plumetted after Castro took over. Throughout the sixties through the eighties their economy was subsidized by the Soviet Union who did what they could to prop them up. Once the Soviets collasped and no more subsidies to Cuba, they have been struggling to put basic food on the table. Here read this: http://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagjr002.php. I don't know what history you have read or been taught, but I went to school with several Cubans, and they set me straight on this idolitry of a murdering bastard.

And yet he's admired by millions of cubans. Insult him in Cuba and you will either get beat up, sent to jail or both.

[amalia1985]

I can show you many "murdering bastards" of today that are elected, but again, I will not only become political,but something much more serious...

[crisaor]

Just a couple of things.

There's quite a lot of false facts in this thread. Cuba never had any concentration camps, and neither did they execute hundreds of peasants. Batista was a dictator, and Cuba wasn't a free country during his time. It was basically a casino for the US (you can see this very well represented in the Godfather, part 2), and most of the cubans were non-citizens in their own country, it was the people themselves that overthrew him.The data about the standard of life in 50's Cuba is ludicrous, and I bet that article is sponsored by the Miami-Cuba groups, which get direct funding from the US government. Have you actually heard those people's opinions? They're a scary bunch.

I believe el Che gets a lot of attention because of the unusual life he lead. Along with a friend (both Medicine students) he travelled through several south american countries, working in leprosaries; he took direct part in the cuban revolution, after which he served as the economy minister for a while (they were looking for an economist [economista], but he misheard communist [comunista] and so he volunteered for the job). He could've easily remained in Cuba, where he was viewed as a national hero and had all of the privileges of the cuban revolutionaries high-ups, but he didn't care and set to Bolivia with a poor contingent to try to keep spreading the revolution, where he ended up dying.

As some said before, many people who wear his effigy don't know much about his story. Despite how romantic the pursuing of ideals believed just to the exclusion of everything else might be, he also was an armed combatant, who killed people in skirmishes. I don't think that's a lifestyle many people would like to follow.

Finally, the icon figure many times trascends itself, so it biggens with time, regardless of anything else.

[NikolaiI]

I think it's best not to have any emotional attachment as to whether Che was a good or bad person. I find him interesting because of his journey, I saw a map of on Wiki. That's very interesting to me; in fact, it might be interesting just as "Che's journey." I don't know. I have respect for Marx and socialism, if for no other reason than for the library, and to me it seems like a world where everything is free is possible. Look how well our library works! Sure it is a far cry from our current system....actually...I am about to get into politics here... by the way, if anyone is offended, or feels very strongly about this- anyone- please, just...be civil. No need to close this thread. I don't. care. I like Che. Peace.

[Virgil]

There's quite a lot of false facts in this thread. Cuba never had any concentration camps, and neither did they execute hundreds of peasants.
I don't think anyone said he executed pasants, pe se. He executed anyone that did not support his dictatorship. Mass executions were a common thing as part of the revolution. You may like Castro and Guavara but you cannot say they were freedom fighters or brought freedom. They were and of course Castro still is a petty dictator. No concentration camps? OK then what do you call the place where political dissenters are forced to reside? Anyone that criticizes the Castro regime is rounded up and put in a jail. You don't want to call it a concentration camp? I don't know what else to call a place where people are put for no crimes committed other than speaking.


Batista was a dictator, and Cuba wasn't a free country during his time.
No one has claimed otherwise.


It was basically a casino for the US (you can see this very well represented in the Godfather, part 2),
Judging reality by movies is very suspect. But OK, there were American casinos in Cuba, probably providing thousands of jobs for people. I know people had a better life in Cuba prior to Castro. Now it was not a rich nation. Yes there was poverty like in all second or third world countries. But it was a richer nation than it is now. The economic facts speak for themselves.


The data about the standard of life in 50's Cuba is ludicrous, and I bet that article is sponsored by the Miami-Cuba groups, which get direct funding from the US government.
Really? First of all I don't know where you get the fact that the US government funds Miami-Cuba groups. I didn't think my government went around funding people for their opinions. If you have such evidence let me see it.


Have you actually heard those people's opinions? They're a scary bunch.
Yeah, they're my neighbors. There are 1.2 million cubans in the US. Except for the children that are born here, they have all escaped Cuba for the United States. None leave the United States to go live in Cuba. Today there are still people risking their lives in rafts to try to float over to the United States. Some life it must be there. If Castro did not restrict immigration out, 3/4 of the population would be gone tomorrow.


Despite how romantic the pursuing of ideals believed just to the exclusion of everything else might be, he also was an armed combatant, who killed people in skirmishes.
Oh how nice you make that sound. Here quoted from Guavara's own diary:

"I ended the problem with a .32 caliber pistol, in the right side of his brain. . . . His belongings were now mine."

[NikolaiI]

If that is really what he wrote, Virgil, then I am swayed to your side, I would have to say he's insane. I am suspect of information regarding anyone in that past, though, really. That's why I value literature, where it can still be judged today. Literature is good literature, or it's bad...you know...and all the shades in between and what not. :)

And Virgil, immigration out is emigration. In case you don't mind being corrected. :)

[papayahed]

If that is really what he wrote, Virgil, then I am swayed to your side, I would have to say he's insane. I am suspect of information regarding anyone in that past, though, really. That's why I value literature, where it can still be judged today. Literature is good literature, or it's bad...you know...and all the shades in between and what not. :)



See, that makes me wonder who Che was speaking of and what the problem was.

[crisaor]

I don't think anyone said he executed pasants, pe se. He executed anyone that did not support his dictatorship. Mass executions were a common thing as part of the revolution.
That was the impression I got out of the thread. And his ‘dictatorship’ began as a coup supported by the Cubans themselves, so it didn’t lack ‘support’.

You may like Castro and Guavara but you cannot say they were freedom fighters or brought freedom. They were and of course Castro still is a petty dictator. No concentration camps? OK then what do you call the place where political dissenters are forced to reside? Anyone that criticizes the Castro regime is rounded up and put in a jail. You don't want to call it a concentration camp? I don't know what else to call a place where people are put for no crimes committed other than speaking.
I don’t think you quite understood my post. I don’t hold any particular regard for el Che Guevara, although I‘m certainly surprised at the lengths he went to pursue his ideas, and the fact that he never was interested in anything else. He didn’t care for power, nor recognision, nor did he fear for his life (either in combat or outside it). Castro is a different matter. I don’t like at all the fact of staying in power for decades, but I’ll gladly take him over the vast majority of the presidents that the southamerican hemisphere has produced in the last 50 years (which doesn't speak highly of us, but I don't wanna go much into that, current politics and all). Are you aware of the excellent social indicators that Cuba possesses despite of all its shortcomings? They make a wonderful use of the very little resources they have.


Judging reality by movies is very suspect. But OK, there were American casinos in Cuba, probably providing thousands of jobs for people. I know people had a better life in Cuba prior to Castro. Now it was not a rich nation. Yes there was poverty like in all second or third world countries. But it was a richer nation than it is now. The economic facts speak for themselves.
It’s not meant that it’s based on the movie (I think that much is obvious), but rather that the movie does a good job of depicting true events, and it makes a good reference to those unfamiliar with the subject.

Regarding the country’s wealth, it wasn’t subject to an economic blockade, if that’s what you mean. Now there’s an economic fact for you.


Really? First of all I don't know where you get the fact that the US government funds Miami-Cuba groups. I didn't think my government went around funding people for their opinions. If you have such evidence let me see it.
It's everywhere. Just pay attention, every once in a while the Cuba matter pops up, those groups claim more funding. And politicans mention this fact too. You can also read books dealing with the subject. Michael Moore’s Downsize this! Chapter 23 makes for an interesting and entertaining reading regarding the Miami cubans, if you want to give it a look.

As a side note, it also seems logical. It rather pays up that the poor migrated Cubans suddenly become rich from night to day, don’t you think? It makes Cuba look bad, which is what the US wants.


Yeah, they're my neighbors. There are 1.2 million cubans in the US. Except for the children that are born here, they have all escaped Cuba for the United States. None leave the United States to go live in Cuba. Today there are still people risking their lives in rafts to try to float over to the United States. Some life it must be there. If Castro did not restrict immigration out, 3/4 of the population would be gone tomorrow.
Check your PM's.


Oh how nice you make that sound. Here quoted from Guavara's own diary:
I didn't intended to make it sound nice. That parograph goes against as having him as a positive influence, didn't you notice?

[Virgil]

[QUOTE]I don’t think you quite understood my post. I don’t hold any particular regard for el Che Guevara,
Sorry then. It did seem you were praising him.


Are you aware of the excellent social indicators that Cuba possesses despite of all its shortcomings? They make a wonderful use of the very little resources they have.
Like what? I've heard the prostitution level is very high.


It’s not meant that it’s based on the movie (I think that much is obvious), but rather that the movie does a good job of depicting true events, and it makes a good reference to those unfamiliar with the subject.
How do you know it does a good job? Did you live there? I've seen reruns of I Love Lucy where Ricky Ricardo (Desi Arnez and he's from pre-Castro Cuba) praises Cuba. Judging reality by movies, novels or TV is silly. There is a movie that claims that Lyndon Johnson was responsible for the killing of JFK. That looked pretty real too. And there are people that believe it. Hahaha.


Regarding the country’s wealth, it wasn’t subject to an economic blockade, if that’s what you mean. Now there’s an economic fact for you.
The economic embargo is an American embargo. The rest of the world is free to trade with Cuba.


It's everywhere. Just pay attention, every once in a while the Cuba matter pops up, those groups claim more funding. And politicans mention this fact too. You can also read books dealing with the subject. Michael Moore’s Downsize this! Chapter 23 makes for an interesting and entertaining reading regarding the Miami cubans, if you want to give it a look.
Micheal Moore???? :lol: Get real. He's a propagandist. Come on. The burden of proof that the government funds a group remains on those that claim it. Show me. Funds them to do what? We've had both Democrats and Republicans in power since Castro. Cuban Americans tend to support Republicans. Congress in the US from 1960 to 1994 was almost exclusively Democrat. Congress is who generates the budget, not the President. Why would Democrats fund Cuban Americans? Frankly this is one of those conspiracy theories that people come up with. Like I said, show me the proof.


As a side note, it also seems logical. It rather pays up that the poor migrated Cubans suddenly become rich from night to day, don’t you think? It makes Cuba look bad, which is what the US wants.
It doesn't seem logical at all to me. The government paying to do what? As if the Cuban Americans need money to hate Castro. And who is the government paying? My neighbor still has to go to work. He's never mentioned a paycheck from the government to hate Castro. There are several Cuban sympathizers in the US Congress. Certainly they would speak up if Cuban American groups were being funded by our own governent. Like I said this is a conspiracy theory.

[papayahed]

Micheal Moore???? :lol: Get real. He's a propagandist. Come on. The burden of proof that the government funds a group remains on those that claim it. Show me. Funds them to do what? We've had both Democrats and Republicans in power since Castro. Cuban Americans tend to support Republicans. Congress in the US from 1960 to 1994 was almost exclusively Democrat. Congress is who generates the budget, not the President. Why would Democrats fund Cuban Americans? Frankly this is one of those conspiracy theories that people come up with. Like I said, show me the proof.



theres many examples that can't be listed here.

[crisaor]

Sorry then. It did seem you were praising him.
Didn't mean to. But I wanted to say that he was different from the likes of Batista or Castro, or any other dictator that migt come up for comparison, for the reasons I've already stated.


Like what? I've heard the prostitution level is very high.
Cuba ranks in place 50th in the Human Development Index, a composed indicator measured by the United Nations. For reference, Norway ranks 1st, the United States ranks 8th, Mexico 53rd, Russia 65th, to name some.

Cuba has a life expectancy of 77,6 (29th in the world), a 99,8% of adult literacy rate (3rd worldwide), an 80% Combined primary, secondary and tertiary gross enrolment ratio (53rd), and leads the world in adult illiteracy rate with a 0,2%.

That data is from 2006, you can check for others indicators in the full report of HDI here (http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/).


How do you know it does a good job? Did you live there? I've seen reruns of I Love Lucy where Ricky Ricardo (Desi Arnez and he's from pre-Castro Cuba) praises Cuba. Judging reality by movies, novels or TV is silly. There is a movie that claims that Lyndon Johnson was responsible for the killing of JFK. That looked pretty real too. And there are people that believe it. Hahaha.
Get serious. I Love Lucy is not more credible than Francis Ford Coppola. Next you'll say Vietnam wasn't anything like Apocalypse Now then.


The economic embargo is an American embargo. The rest of the world is free to trade with Cuba.
No they aren't. Those that trade with Cuba suffer economic penalties when they trade with the US, either directly or indirectly through a third party. In order to get indispensable goods Cuba has to pay at least 3 times the market value in order to get countries to trade with.


Micheal Moore???? :lol: Get real. He's a propagandist. Come on. The burden of proof that the government funds a group remains on those that claim it.
What he says in there is all true. I just pointed you to a source that has several of historical facts assembled in one place. It's up to you if you want to get more acquainted to what I'm saying or not, I won't deliver you with a gift-wrapped filecase of data from the last decades. Try any renown historian (I'd say Hobsbawm, but he's a self-proclaimed marxist, so you'll probably dismiss him too), or do a search on the net, I'm sure you can come up with something.

You can also check Bloqueo, la Guerra contra Cuba (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758408/), which is very nice. You can even watch it online here (http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-7078502087173689676) (it's in spanish, though).

And Papaya was kind enough to provide more links on the matter. Thanks. :)


As to the particular role of democrats/republicans or the like, I rather we keep it to PMs, as to not hijack the thread.

[papayahed]

And Papaya was kind enough to provide more links on the matter. Thanks. :)



I took it off to avoid current politics but I'll send it in a PM.

[Virgil]

Listen anyone who sites Michael Moore as a credible source is siting politics. Michael Moore is a political propagandist, to put it mildly. He's a partisan and not just a partisan but someone who hates the United States.

And anyone who looks at movies to substantiate their points has no credibilty. I'm sorry. Apocalypse Now was a great movie. But hardly any Vietnam vets went up a river to kill a stray American Colonel, and in doing so encountering all sorts of weird and wild adventures. No, that movie was a great movie but it does not represent what the Vietnam experience was really like.

Hey i think this discussion has reached a point where nothing new is being said.

Addition: So they fund a radio station. That's hardly funding Cuban American groups. The US has funded radio stations around the world supporting democracy. Not just Cubans.

[crisaor]

And anyone who looks at movies to substantiate their points has no credibilty. No, that movie was a great movie but it does not represent what the Vietnam experience was really like.
Hey i think this discussion has reached a point where nothing new is being said.

I think we just reached the point in which you can't sustain your arguments and just dismiss (or simply ignore, like the stats I gave you) what is said to you and what you said earlier. That's okay, I said what I wanted to say. Those who read the thread can make up their minds.

I'll bother you with one more PM on this matter and that's it. Promise.

[Virgil]

I think we just reached the point in which you can't sustain your arguments and just dismiss (or simply ignore, like the stats I gave you) what is said to you and what you said earlier. That's okay, I said what I wanted to say. Those who read the thread can make up their minds.

I'll bother you with one more PM on this matter and that's it. Promise.

Well I don't dispute those indicators you posted. At least I don't have any information to contradict them. But I don't think any of them are economic indicators. Cuba's economy is still in shambles and worse than pre Castro. And people are still trying to leave Cuba and people are still being put in jail for basic speech.

As long as you're not basing your points from movies you have credibility. :)

[amalia1985]

So, anyone who does not agree with the particular political system makes propaganda, eh?
Quite...

[Logos]

Please stop discussing Cuban-US relations or this topic will be closed. Thankyouverymuch.

[bazarov]

Just a couple of things.

There's quite a lot of false facts in this thread. Cuba never had any concentration camps, and neither did they execute hundreds of peasants. .


From Wiki

He was appointed commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison, and during his five-month tenure in that post (January 2 through June 12, 1959),[28] he oversaw the trial and execution of many people, among whom were former Batista regime officials and members of the "Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities" (a unit of the secret police known by its Spanish acronym BRAC). José Vilasuso, an attorney who worked under Guevara at La Cabaña preparing indictments, said that these were lawless proceedings where "the facts were judged without any consideration to general juridical principles" and the findings were pre-determined by Guevara.[29][30] It is estimated that between 156 and 550 people were executed on Guevara's extra-judicial orders during this time.[31]

[bazarov]

So, anyone who does not agree with the particular political system makes propaganda, eh?
Quite...

No. One thing is not to agree with something, and another is to constantly criticise same thing and neglecting others which are obviously good and pretending they don't exist.

[NikolaiI]

blah.

[amalia1985]

No. One thing is not to agree with something, and another is to constantly criticise same thing and neglecting others which are obviously good and pretending they don't exist.



This is a good point, applying to all fields of public and private life. Criticising something or someone because you are obsessed against him/her/it, is frightfully wrong. And I believe that yes, this definetely applies to Moore, as well.
There are many tv-persons in my country that do exactly the same, and although you might agree with them at first, their hatred-because it becomes such-is really tiresome and irritating.

[bazarov]

This is a good point, applying to all fields of public and private life. Criticising something or someone because you are obsessed against him/her/it, is frightfully wrong. And I believe that yes, this definetely applies to Moore, as well.
There are many tv-persons in my country that do exactly the same, and although you might agree with them at first, their hatred-because it becomes such-is really tiresome and irritating.

That's exactly what I meant :)

[NikolaiI]

bazarov, I really think you should get your liver checked out! I don't know beans about your liver disease, but it sounds awful. You should get it checked out, and you should know you can't hurt the doctors by not going to them! You only hurt yourself! :D

btw, is bazarov your name, or just one you like? Cause I saw it in some short story or something earlier..

[bazarov]

Nobody can help me and I would totally confuse them, poor guys.:lol:
It's from Fathers and Sons, Turgenev's brilliant novel.

[crisaor]

From Wiki
Yes, you're technically correct, Bazarov. I meant that it wasn't like the more common meaning associated to concentration camps (ie those in Nazi Germany).

I didn't mean to imply they didn't kill people. Theirs was a fight to the death, and they never claimed otherwise. Those who opposed the revolution were dealt with, that's for certain.

Out of curiosity, did the thread gave you any answers as to why the fascination exists?

[NikolaiI]

Nobody can help me and I would totally confuse them, poor guys.:lol:
It's from Fathers and Sons, Turgenev's brilliant novel.

What? No it's not, it's from Notes from the Underground, by Dostoevsky. :) The first lines. I meant "I don't know beans about it," because in some translations it says "I don't know beans about my disease..." etc.

[bazarov]

btw, is bazarov your name, or just one you like? Cause I saw it in some short story or something earlier..



It's from Fathers and Sons, Turgenev's brilliant novel.



What? No it's not, it's from Notes from the Underground, by Dostoevsky. :) The first lines. I meant "I don't know beans about it," because in some translations it says "I don't know beans about my disease..." etc.

I know from where is my signature :lol: :lol: And a nick also :lol: :lol:




Out of curiosity, did the thread gave you any answers as to why the fascination exists?

Well, mostly yes. Thread confirmed some my ideas( totally wrong perspective of some historical events or lack of education) but I still can't understand that admiration on him.

[Starving Buddha]

The nature of life is Revolution! Che was a visionary who realized this inherent truth. Of course his theatre of operation was political, the revolution takes place even deeper, within our very souls. We desperately need individuals like Che to show us that when circumstances become static and complacent, the also begin to stagnate and atrophy... Viva Che!

[Idril]

What? No it's not, it's from Notes from the Underground, by Dostoevsky. :) The first lines. I meant "I don't know beans about it," because in some translations it says "I don't know beans about my disease..." etc.

His screen name is from Father's and Sons, his signature is Dostoevsky. :)

[NikolaiI]

His screen name is from Father's and Sons, his signature is Dostoevsky. :)

Ah, okay! I understand now. I fully understand! I was just confused, and trying not to put my foot in my mouth! I hope I haven't! :)

I thought you were saying your sig was from Turgenev, bazarov. I'm sorry :( I was just...going to correct you, :|.

[bazarov]

Thanks Idril! NikolaiI, everything OK!

[Sancho]

At the risk of stating the obvious, Che Guevara is on so many T-shirts because Che looks good on a T-shirt. In the most famous image of Che (pasted on this thread a few times) Che has a sort of “far away” look in his eyes as though he is looking into future; he has a carefully affixed Mao-esc beret over his carefully crafted disheveled curly locks; the beard adds a sense of intellectualism to the whole package. He looks good. He looks like, what a Spanish-American revolutionary or freedom fighter ought to look like. I think people are viscerally drawn to it (the image, not the man). Caveat: present company excepted of course; we all did our homework and know what the man did and what the man stood for and have either signed up for his program or not. It’s our natural-born right, in a world of ideas.

Hey, you know who else looks good on a T-shirt? – Bob Marley
In fact, I’ll bet over half the people wearing a Che T-shirt right now think that he’s a reggae musician.

[Niamh]

Hey, you know who else looks good on a T-shirt? – Bob Marley
In fact, I’ll bet over half the people wearing a Che T-shirt right now think that he’s a reggae musician.

:lol: :lol: :lol: more than likely!!!