The end of philosophy

[blazeofglory]

If we ask what is the end of science, it is science it self and nothing is truer than science, and in the same vein if we ask where philosophy ends, the response is in philosophy.

But today philosophical notions are shifting and people are questioning philosophical propositions. We are more and more skeptical than our predecessors.

Reading from Plato through Hegel to Marx, to Freud and Russel we have undergone transformations. Yet we do not stick to any of these predecessors completely. We can not completely root ourselves in materiality nor in spirituality. Every one in this age of reason is somewhat bent towards skepticism.

We are skeptical of both theism and atheism, materialism and spiritualism .
Where will we be heading on?

[syiah]

Hmm...good question.

I think that the future of philosophy will constitute mainly in trying to refute and disprove the theories of previous philosophers, simply to make humans feel more intelligent since they seem to be having more and more difficulties coming up with their own original ideas as of late. :D As you have already pointed out, we're becoming more and more skeptical as time progresses and just don't seem to be able to place our beliefs anywhere! We simply feel the need to question everything. (Sounds like the Scientific Revolution...shall we label this the "Philosophical Revolution?")

Apart from that, I'm guessing that in the near future that philosophy is going to focus more and more on scientific/medical ethics. Seeing as how science is advancing rapidly, we'll need to be able to make the "proper" decisions; regarding cell cloning and embryonic research, for instance...

Here's a radical idea: as time progresses and the earth becomes more and more densely populated, maybe we'll start rethinking the legal systems.
-Should we continue spending money on correctional facilities, or should we go back to the old 'kick the bucket' style of dealing with felons?
-If we really need information from people, is it alright to resort to physical torture?
(Maybe we'll find it most logical to turn the world into something mirroring the dystopia presented in Burgess's "The Wanting Seed"...)

The "God" question will never be resolved, methinks, since neither theists nor atheists can come up with conclusive proof supporting their arguments. Herein lie also the debates concerning materialism/spirituality/existence...so we'll continue butting heads there.

Just my two cents. Hopefully I managed to make some sense...I is tired. ^^;

[gothic]

being skeptical is nothing new for us,blaze,for this's been the only way to renew things,revive our ideas. thesis+anti-thesis=sin-thesis,this is the process that renews our views and without it progression of thoughts would be impossible.the evolution of thought is therefore rooted in SKEPTISM.

and why everybody in here is so confused about philosophy lately? If philosophers are so dubious about their due feat,what are we supposed to do?:p

[Starving Buddha]

I believe that all roads (science, philosophy, religion, etc. et al) will end in a unified point where they will all be seen as different ways of expressing the same thing. What science teaches is what religion teaches only looking at the same subject from different perspectives (ie using a different language). You can read the Upanishads from Hinduism, and see quantum physics explained. The end of the road is an understanding that we, and the universe we exist in are the same (thou art that). Mirror reflections. As long as we continue to hang onto it (seeking something more) the longer it will go on. But consequently, the longer we will live in ignorance and ultimately, suffering. But at some point along our path, we will seek to know the ultimate truth, and we will learn to detach from it, and stop the suffering, stop the ignorance, and absorb into the eternal bliss...

[blazeofglory]

I believe that all roads (science, philosophy, religion, etc. et al) will end in a unified point where they will all be seen as different ways of expressing the same thing. What science teaches is what religion teaches only looking at the same subject from different perspectives (ie using a different language). You can read the Upanishads from Hinduism, and see quantum physics explained. The end of the road is an understanding that we, and the universe we exist in are the same (thou art that). Mirror reflections. As long as we continue to hang onto it (seeking something more) the longer it will go on. But consequently, the longer we will live in ignorance and ultimately, suffering. But at some point along our path, we will seek to know the ultimate truth, and we will learn to detach from it, and stop the suffering, stop the ignorance, and absorb into the eternal bliss...

I was never convinced so deeply and intensely as this post of your did. Yes everything is converging or ultimately every road leads to the same destination. I am very much sure that everything is part of the cosmos or one being. I believe very strongly indeed that all things are animate, and even this universe is animate. If the earth is not animate or a living being how can we be a living being. Even rocks and rivers are living beings as much as we are. I not only believe this fact really I feel it deeply and intensely.

In fact I am not a beleiver in the traditional or in the usual sense of believing the existence of God. However what I believe in is there is order in this universe, any name we can give to it, divine order or cosmic order.

[Starving Buddha]

I was never convinced so deeply and intensely as this post of your did. Yes everything is converging or ultimately every road leads to the same destination. I am very much sure that everything is part of the cosmos or one being. I believe very strongly indeed that all things are animate, and even this universe is animate. If the earth is not animate or a living being how can we be a living being. Even rocks and rivers are living beings as much as we are. I not only believe this fact really I feel it deeply and intensely.

In fact I am not a beleiver in the traditional or in the usual sense of believing the existence of God. However what I believe in is there is order in this universe, any name we can give to it, divine order or cosmic order.

Precisely! When we get past the traditions (the metaphorical veils), we can begin to appreciate and come into union with the Divine. It is the concept of "God" that is holding most back. It is the flaming sword at the gates of Paradise keeping us out. It is our own ego...

[NikolaiI]

A concept in Buddhism: Kill the Buddha. If you see a Buddha elsewhere, it means you're not thinking about your own Buddha-nature, something like that. Also one where you are supposed to kill the patriarchs as you come to them. Anyone else remember this?

[amanda_isabel]

But today philosophical notions are shifting and people are questioning philosophical propositions. We are more and more skeptical than our predecessors.



skepticism is asking questions. questions make you find out answers, even make your own. as long as there is skepticism, there will always be philosophy. and skepticism is around always. more ideas are being borne into the world.

there is no such thing as the end of philosophy, because philosophy is an offshoot of man's curiosity.

[gothic]

skepticism is asking questions. questions make you find out answers, even make your own. as long as there is skepticism, there will always be philosophy. and skepticism is around always. more ideas are being borne into the world.

there is no such thing as the end of philosophy, because philosophy is an offshoot of man's curiosity.

Now,THAT'S what I was talking about amanda!:)

[gothic]

If the earth is not animate or a living being how can we be a living being. Even rocks and rivers are living beings as much as we are. I not only believe this fact really I feel it deeply and intensely.

That's an interesting and provocative view,blaze.

How do we draw a keen line between the living and the non-living? If the living beings came to existence from non-living,then what was the cause that made them be so?What was the urge that first stimulated them to move and hence,seek for energy?

Philosophy's still seeking the path to find out these answers,followed by science as its disciple.

[Starving Buddha]

A concept in Buddhism: Kill the Buddha. If you see a Buddha elsewhere, it means you're not thinking about your own Buddha-nature, something like that. Also one where you are supposed to kill the patriarchs as you come to them. Anyone else remember this?

Actually, in Buddhism (as well as other religions) you are taught not to kill... Anything. For killing another is likened onto killing yourself, because you and the other are one in the same... That is Buddha nature. There is no difference between you and the world. There is only Buddha Nature (or Buddha consciousness)- becoming aware of the complete whole as opposed to the individual ego parts (state of ignorance) that one had previously existed in...

[blazeofglory]

Actually, in Buddhism (as well as other religions) you are taught not to kill... Anything. For killing another is likened onto killing yourself, because you and the other are one in the same... That is Buddha nature. There is no difference between you and the world. There is only Buddha Nature (or Buddha consciousness)- becoming aware of the complete whole as opposed to the individual ego parts (state of ignorance) that one had previously existed in...

In fact what you said is very true, and as true as existence. I am really highly moved by your statement that killing another is killing oneself. I internalize this sentence and this is indeed the philosophy I want to live with and I have not been able to live with. And I believe there can not be a better philosophy or a a greater truth than this.

If this truth that if one kills another one is killing himself is realized by others this world will be really a beautiful place to live in.

This truth incorporates many other truths, they are if you corrupt others you are corrupting yourslef. In fact this world is really one living being, the cosmic being, and we are indeed very close to one another.

This realization of closeness or oneness with the universe is what we call the path to Nirvana.

Indeed I am very much convinced of the fact that if we realize we are not separate egos, but one whole, the undivided one that is Buddha nature.

[jdadler]

In his written dialogues, Plato developed accounts of knowledge, reality, humanity, society, goodness, God, and beauty. Usually, when people speak of Platonism, they are referring to his theory of Forms, accompanied by a doctrine of the immortality of the soul and values that transcend power, prestige, and pleasure. Western thought has developed either by following and adapting his accounts or by reacting to them, either directly or indirectly through, most notably, Aristotle, Plotinus, Philo, and Augustine. The theory of Forms established the most basic concept of science as it came to be practiced in Europe, namely, that science aims to discover objective principles, in other words, "Forms." Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul and values that transcend the material world have reinforced and shaped systematic thinking within Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
-encyclopedia of science and religion

[blazeofglory]

In his written dialogues, Plato developed accounts of knowledge, reality, humanity, society, goodness, God, and beauty. Usually, when people speak of Platonism, they are referring to his theory of Forms, accompanied by a doctrine of the immortality of the soul and values that transcend power, prestige, and pleasure. Western thought has developed either by following and adapting his accounts or by reacting to them, either directly or indirectly through, most notably, Aristotle, Plotinus, Philo, and Augustine. The theory of Forms established the most basic concept of science as it came to be practiced in Europe, namely, that science aims to discover objective principles, in other words, "Forms." Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul and values that transcend the material world have reinforced and shaped systematic thinking within Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
-encyclopedia of science and religion

Yet we are seeking for the end of philosophy. Indeed it was Plato who gave a classical view of philosophy and indeed he left a great legacy and in a way the western tradition of philosophy found their base in his ideas indeed. Western thought became a dominant philosophical thought for quite a long.
time. Now philosophy has to draw from different sources. We have Chinese philosophy, the Tao Path, Zen, Buddhism, Vedic philosophy. So many philosophies indeed. Now we commingle all of them instead of bending to one particular. We are not satisfied with empiricism or rationalism. Materialism has
swept us and yet we were not swayed and we stood firm against all different gales or of course tempests of ideologies. Now spirituality has undergone a new definition. Deepak Chopra is doing a marvelous job indeed. But the question where will this end up?

[jdadler]

"But the question where will this end up?" -blaze
the only way for philosophy to end is for us to stop asking questions, which means we would need to lose our imagination, b/c with each new answer comes more questions. more possibilities. more quandries.

you are correct that advances in transportation and communication have brought together ideas from different cultures (global village) and this is creating a paradigm shift to more unified set of world philosophies (note plural) but as the change continues to occur (the only constant) so too will our perspective and therefore our philosophy.

after all, couldnt a definition of philosophy be: the communication of an individual's or culture's perspective on the nature of existance.

[jdadler]

if you mean end as goal,
well then the goal is to keep asking questions, I would think. the answers are in some ways irrelavant. it is the process of self examination that is most important to the growth of the person/culture.

[blazeofglory]

"But the question where will this end up?" -blaze
the only way for philosophy to end is for us to stop asking questions, which means we would need to lose our imagination, b/c with each new answer comes more questions. more possibilities. more quandries.

you are correct that advances in transportation and communication have brought together ideas from different cultures (global village) and this is creating a paradigm shift to more unified set of world philosophies (note plural) but as the change continues to occur (the only constant) so too will our perspective and therefore our philosophy.

after all, couldnt a definition of philosophy be: the communication of an individual's or culture's perspective on the nature of existance.

Yes indeed we are assimilating globally on a massive scale, and never ever before at any point in history we were so much coming together globally, culturally and of course socially, the way we do now. That is why our notions , philosophical thoughts have undergone a sea change. Now we are breaking all kinds of barriers coming closely together. knitting up bonds of togetherness. Philosophy is bound to be different and changed indeed.

[jon1jt]

If we ask what is the end of science, it is science it self and nothing is truer than science, and in the same vein if we ask where philosophy ends, the response is in philosophy.

But today philosophical notions are shifting and people are questioning philosophical propositions. We are more and more skeptical than our predecessors.

Reading from Plato through Hegel to Marx, to Freud and Russel we have undergone transformations. Yet we do not stick to any of these predecessors completely. We can not completely root ourselves in materiality nor in spirituality. Every one in this age of reason is somewhat bent towards skepticism.

We are skeptical of both theism and atheism, materialism and spiritualism .
Where will we be heading on?

good question, blaze. i think that we are in the age of hyperreality. it's the idea that the real gives way to simulations of the real (if that makes any sense.)
i profess nothing new here in this regard in light of the works of Jean Baudrillard and Umberto Eco who best illustrate this fragmenting self in the face of blitzkrieg advertising and information technology. most sacrificed have been classical principles of cohesion and development, which involve a waning commitment to community and place. much of the modern appreciation for landscape, for example, has its roots in impressionism, which provided the point of reference---or rather, the frame around which we come to encounter it. let's face it, Disneyland is believed to provide more nature than nature itself can.

imitation is taking the place of the real.

where will be be heading on?

i just saw a feature article on yahoo, something about individuals spending more time online now than they do with family and how some undergo loss or anxiety when experiencing computer troubles. nothing more to say.

[Virgil]

You guys are locked in the past. Philosophy has moved on from the the box you are thinking out of. Current philosophy will be based alnog the lines of Karl Popper and Thomas Kuhn.

[jon1jt]

Mr. Thomas Kuhn? mr. paradigm shift man? hah!

[jon1jt]

that kuhn is a bum, and he can take his linear-thinking philosophy and go bury himself in a shallow grave. :) that scientific revolutions book is an antiquated snore.

[Virgil]

Mr. Thomas Kuhn? mr. paradigm shift man? hah!

The understanding of paradigms and shifts is as important as Plato's shadows. And with a hundred times more usefulness. :)

[colin r.s.]

Look, I don't see any philosophy happening right now. It seems that philosophy and the other humanities are nearly neglected, and have stopped (I count Dylan Thomas as one of the last poets); I feel that this could be more of a change in the human organism, whether it be simple genetics, or something akin to the begining of a shift akin that of a homeo sapian to homeo sapian sapian I am unsure; what you read is mere conjecture.

[jon1jt]

The understanding of paradigms and shifts is as important as Plato's shadows. And with a hundred times more usefulness. :)

i agree with that. troublesome to me is how his entire theory is based on the idea that paradigms evolve, grow, and hardly ever replaced or displaced, and never the case of emerging from an organic well of one's own. i suppose you see it more in your profession than i do. paradigms in their externalized form. i philosophize, you do, there's a difference. :thumbs_up

[gothic]

The understanding of paradigms and shifts is as important as Plato's shadows. And with a hundred times more usefulness. :)

If anyone would kindly tell me what are these paradigms and shifts...:(

[Virgil]

If anyone would kindly tell me what are these paradigms and shifts...:(
Here Gothic, you can get a comprehensive explaination here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm


i agree with that. troublesome to me is how his entire theory is based on the idea that paradigms evolve, grow, and hardly ever replaced or displaced, and never the case of emerging from an organic well of one's own. i suppose you see it more in your profession than i do. paradigms in their externalized form. i philosophize, you do, there's a difference. :thumbs_up

Let me first say, I was just being brash and controversial (hey I got my idiosycrisies ;) ) by saying it is more important than Plato's forms, but I feel it rises to that level. I'm not a philosophy major or even love philosophy. I tend to find it useless. So I'm not an expert but someone who likes to occaisionally kibitz. So take my assessment with a grain of salt.

Look I think there are paradigms in everything we do. Yes, perhaps it's starkly evident in science, and that's where Kuhn started from, but I think he rightly expanded it beyond that. Even you as a teacher have teaching models in your head as to what works and how to teach. That is a paradigm and may be different from some textbook model or the teacher in the next classroom. We internally create models on how evrything in the world works. Even the notion that we need to get jobs after college to earn a living is a paradigm, although reality will probably hit you in the face at some point. Even something as simple as the notion of cholestorol clogging arteries and leading to heart disease is a paradigm. Such a notion was unthought of years ago. Or salt raising blood pressure. Or the notion of American freedom versus Athenian democracy of the ancient world. These are formulations we culturally create and use to go about our lives. I could go as far as to claim that what distinguishes Americans from Germans (just to randomly pick somewhere) is a paradigm outlook, and what distinguishes westerners from middle easterners is a paradigm. Even within our country what distinguishes the political left from the politcal right is a paradigm formulation. Just observe a debate. It boils down to not facts but to I believe this while you believe that. It usually comes down to one seeing the world as working in one manner while the other sees it working in a different manner.

I do think the notion of paradigms is extremely important. In many ways it creates a link from Hume's empiricism to Kant's limitations to reason. But I'm no philosophy student.

[Midas]

Philosophy, at its core, is the search for universal truths. It is a search that for those who set out on that journey, can have no accomplished end. They, themselves, can quit and take up some other pursuit, but it will be without having reached any definitive answers. Why? Because by its very nature, there aren't any - not in this life anyway.

Answers containing ideas there are a plenty, as many as there are philosophers, and you may find on the smorgasbord they provide that which appeals, and satisfies, your tastes, but none will stand up to empirical examination. Nothing will prove conclusive. That has applied since the first philosophers of record to the present day. This we know from their writings.

If some early cave man did discover any definitive answers, we will never know as he left no record.

It is a pursuit for those who like argument in which you can be challenged, and doubted, but, if you are reasonably careful, never proved wrong.

It is one in which you can sound erudite merely by digesting 'Bluff Your Way in Philosophy' or 'Philosophy for Dummies' (If that last one hasn't been written yet, here's an opportunity for someone). The first one I have and it lies on my shelf along with Plato's Republic. and the ramblings of Kant and Spinoza's Tractatus (which I've never really read, and doubt, ever will).

As long as there are people who love to argue, about unanswerable questions, philosophy will survive.

[Ludmila607]

As long as many questions remain unanswered will Phylosophy last...

[Midas]

I wonder why we really want to know the answers to questions we should now know from the offerings of so many great minds over the ages, have no conclusive answers.

Why don't we just take life as it comes

After writing and submitting my earlier posting which, as you no doubt observed, treated the subject with more than a touch of cynicism, though of an intended light hearted nature, I felt that I should balance it with something
that could help tip the scales a little to a less flippant and more positive view.

When I studied psychology and philosophy at Uni, it wasn't long before I sensed how you could easily, if not careful, get too involved, and too deep into the subject to where it would take you down paths that would lead
into darkness, instead of the enlightenment you were seeking. This is because there are no real answers, only thought provoking ideas, or theories.

This is, no doubt, why more than one of the discipline's revered, or at least, studied, practitioners over the centuries have had problems that marked them more for roles as 'patients' than doctors. Not being able to solve a puzzle, a problem, or, in the field of criminology, a crime with which you have become far too deeply involved and engrossed, can, so it seems, tip you over edge.

Therefore, without getting too deeply involved here, I summarise by saying that the study of psychology and philosophy which, to me, are closely related does have a vital role to play in our lives if we maintain a sense of proportion, and don't permit ourselves to get carried away along weed entangled paths or fall down bottomless holes.

Use the wisdom discovered by those who have gone before to help us deal with life. Much of this wisdom has been passed down as 'quotes' or have become adages, maxims, even clichés, and from the scriptures
- proverbs. Simple philosophy, but to the point, and very effective.

One I particularly like is by Marcus Aurelius, which translated means simply:- It is not what happens to us in life, but how we respond to what happens, that is important.' The wisdom contained therein tells us that we were given the finest computer in the world to solve our problems, or to act as a satellite route planner to get us from A to B according to what we desire for our lives.

However, having something, and using it wisely, unfortunately are poles apart.

So many buckle under adversity, they fall, and they can't get up. Why? Because they focus on what happened so intensely, they are unable to rationalise, and so permit themselves to drown in their self induced negativity. This leads to them taking ' off the shelf ' instant, but temporary 'fixes' of drugs, and/or alcohol, or the final solution of suicide (Which is anything but temporary).

Here's another in the form of prayer, attributed sometimes, I think.to St Francis of Assisi - ' Lord grant me the serenity to accept that which I cannot change, the courage to change that which I can and requires change, and the wisdom to know the difference.' Another from the Talmud:- 'The sun will go down without thy assistance.'

But the fulcrum, or epicentre of all wisdom is an understanding of the meaning of love. And here, so far, I have found that only Shakespeare has provided the most definitive answer, even to the point of staking upon it his own reputation as a writer.

This is what I term simple, but very useful gems of philosophy. that if practised work. No. they don't provide the answers to why we are here. On this I leave you with one person's answer: - I am here to do good to others. Why the 'others' are here, I have no idea.'

[Starving Buddha]

In fact what you said is very true, and as true as existence. I am really highly moved by your statement that killing another is killing oneself. I internalize this sentence and this is indeed the philosophy I want to live with and I have not been able to live with. And I believe there can not be a better philosophy or a a greater truth than this.

If this truth that if one kills another one is killing himself is realized by others this world will be really a beautiful place to live in.

This truth incorporates many other truths, they are if you corrupt others you are corrupting yourslef. In fact this world is really one living being, the cosmic being, and we are indeed very close to one another.

This realization of closeness or oneness with the universe is what we call the path to Nirvana.

Indeed I am very much convinced of the fact that if we realize we are not separate egos, but one whole, the undivided one that is Buddha nature.


Indeed! It is also the Christ Nature and the Krishna Nature. It is the immutable connection we have to the divine source. The god that is within us. The power of manifestation the eminates from us to this reflective nature we call reality. When we project our emotional will out, that is reflected back on us. If we project negativity (hatred, anger), then that returns, and vice versa when we project positivity (love, compassion). We have the ability to make this reality what we desire, but when we desire with the ego, we corrupt it (this is the allegory of The Fall in the Garden of Eden), but when we undergo spiritual transformation (being born again, from our lower animal selves, to our higher spirtual potential) we recognize the universalness of reality. We learn that it is a reflection of karma, and by turning negatives into positives, we lighten the burden. This is what enlightenment is. Getting rid of the karmic burden we bear, and becoming spiritual beings of light. Going from ignorance to full realization.

[blazeofglory]

Indeed! It is also the Christ Nature and the Krishna Nature. It is the immutable connection we have to the divine source. The god that is within us. The power of manifestation the eminates from us to this reflective nature we call reality. When we project our emotional will out, that is reflected back on us. If we project negativity (hatred, anger), then that returns, and vice versa when we project positivity (love, compassion). We have the ability to make this reality what we desire, but when we desire with the ego, we corrupt it (this is the allegory of The Fall in the Garden of Eden), but when we undergo spiritual transformation (being born again, from our lower animal selves, to our higher spirtual potential) we recognize the universalness of reality. We learn that it is a reflection of karma, and by turning negatives into positives, we lighten the burden. This is what enlightenment is. Getting rid of the karmic burden we bear, and becoming spiritual beings of light. Going from ignorance to full realization.

Buddha, Buddha nature has to do with being at one with everything abounds you and to be completely and soleley in communion with nature and with all that is nature. And nothing in fact remains distant from nature. Here nature means this universe.

Here no duality remains and all are closley knit together and you and me are not two different entities, but invisbly and unknowlngly one and the same. If we can feel it we permeate Buddha nature.

[Starving Buddha]

Buddha, Buddha nature has to do with being at one with everything abounds you and to be completely and soleley in communion with nature and with all that is nature. And nothing in fact remains distant from nature. Here nature means this universe.

Here no duality remains and all are closley knit together and you and me are not two different entities, but invisbly and unknowlngly one and the same. If we can feel it we permeate Buddha nature.

Yes. It is the divine realization that there is only one consciousness and all being and things share in its experience. But the more that consciousness is permeated (in samadhi) the more the unity is experienced. Which is to say: we 'normally' experience our part of consciousness, but when we transcend our part (going beyond our ego) we reunite with the realization of the whole. Two things Buddha said: "Thou art that!" And "Try it for yourself, look within, thou art the Buddha!"

[jon1jt]

deconstruction is about to die a hard death. i see philosophy moving toward an exciting field known as ecstatic naturalism that can be traced to Justis Buchler's essay, Toward a General Theory of Human Judgment. if you're familiar with the field of phenomenology buchler's is pre-phenomenological.

"reason is a form of love...It is love of inventive communication. Nothing is more foundational for all value than query, and reason is devotion to query." buchler

what he's saying basically is that there are no ultimate "foundations." Plato begins with 'forms,' aquinas, 'god,' husserl, 'things in themselves,' heidegger, 'being.' naturalism as a whole is unapologetically abstract and will need a more tempered voice to bring it to the people. interesting stuff, anyway. check it out.

[Starving Buddha]

deconstruction is about to die a hard death. i see philosophy moving toward an exciting field known as ecstatic naturalism that can be traced to Justis Buchler's essay, Toward a General Theory of Human Judgment. if you're familiar with the field of phenomenology buchler's is pre-phenomenological.

"reason is a form of love...It is love of inventive communication. Nothing is more foundational for all value than query, and reason is devotion to query." buchler

what he's saying basically is that there are no ultimate "foundations." Plato begins with 'forms,' aquinas, 'god,' husserl, 'things in themselves,' heidegger, 'being.' naturalism as a whole is unapologetically abstract and will need a more tempered voice to bring it to the people. interesting stuff, anyway. check it out.

There are archetypal psymbols that appear all over the world in myhtologies and religions that seem quite "universal" Joseph Campbell's work (The Power of Myth and The Hero With a Thousand Faces)

[jon1jt]

There are archetypal psymbols that appear all over the world in myhtologies and religions that seem quite "universal" Joseph Campbell's work (The Power of Myth and The Hero With a Thousand Faces)


right on! that's a great book and that PBS series shows Campbell to be the greatest voice against religionS i've ever heard.

[Starving Buddha]

right on! that's a great book and that PBS series shows Campbell to be the greatest voice against religionS i've ever heard.

Ah Amen! I consider him to be the single greatest inspiration in my life. If only more people could grasp his work, there would be such a spiritual transformation on this planet.

[jon1jt]

Ah Amen! I consider him to be the single greatest inspiration in my life. If only more people could grasp his work, there would be such a spiritual transformation on this planet.

yes!!!!!! a transformation that blows the ceiling off churches and the bindings of its Books. amen again, my brother!

[Virgil]

I must be missing something. My reading of Cambell is that there is a overarching religion (I think he uses the term godhead) that all religions fit into. An actual quote by Cambell:


Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.
-Joseph Campbell

[jon1jt]

I must be missing something. My reading of Cambell is that there is a overarching religion (I think he uses the term godhead) that all religions fit into. An actual quote by Cambell:


i think campbell meant that all religions are "true" to the extent that they provide meaning and open up the spiritual. he didn't deny that plane of experience so much as he did a higher being. spiritual experience was as natural and necessary to human life as a plant that moves toward light or rain falls downward. campbell becomes visibly upset when bill moyers asks him whether there is a god, and acknowledged the limits of human understanding to the question of why we're here.

[Virgil]

OK that is possible. I will have to go back and read some. I see as I read back the last couple of posts I have misinterpreted what you guys were saying. I thought you were saying he was an atheist. I think you guys are in synch with how I've read him.

[Starving Buddha]

OK that is possible. I will have to go back and read some. I see as I read back the last couple of posts I have misinterpreted what you guys were saying. I thought you were saying he was an atheist. I think you guys are in synch with how I've read him.

What Campbell explains is that "God" is a metaphor for a mystery that transcends life. All religions (in their mystical aspects) aim to provide a person with the means to transcend the common state of suffering that is life, and to experience the larger eternal aspect of the divine. God is a psymbol that gets you to the door, but to pass through it, even that psymbol must be let go of, because the transcendent mystery is beyond words or concepts.

[jon1jt]

What Campbell explains is that "God" is a metaphor for a mystery that transcends life. All religions (in their mystical aspects) aim to provide a person with the means to transcend the common state of suffering that is life, and to experience the larger eternal aspect of the divine. God is a psymbol that gets you to the door, but to pass through it, even that psymbol must be let go of, because the transcendent mystery is beyond words or concepts.


i agree with your thoughts about campbell, i'm just curious why you chose to use the word, "transcend" three times as with "beyond", which i see as a renaming of that entity campbell dismisses as a derivation of mind and thought. the same is the case with "passing through," the assumption being that of a metaphysical realm. ??

[Starving Buddha]

i agree with your thoughts about campbell, i'm just curious why you chose to use the word, "transcend" three times as with "beyond", which i see as a renaming of that entity campbell dismisses as a derivation of mind and thought. the same is the case with "passing through," the assumption being that of a metaphysical realm. ??

The only way to experience the fullness of life is to break free from the prison of ego. That is is a transcendence. It is a going beyond and a passing through also. It is a return to the state of innocence. We have examples of individuals who have done this very thing historically: The Buddha and Jesus. We all possess the potential to realize the totality that is so much more than any individual. And it is only in going beyond our ego, that we can experience that. The realization that this body will perish, but the spirit that informs it, is eternal. Campbell dismisses concepts as being derivitives of the mind (such as trying to imagine "God"), but he stresses that there is indeed an eternal mystery to life. As far as an assumption of a metaphysical realm, I suppose it would merely be another aspect of the physical, perhaps its opposite. Everything after-all in the physical is a joining of opposites. But these are all things that occur, or are found in Time, temporality, corporeality. The purely spiritual realm is beyond Time, and concepts. So much so that it is incomprehendable. Perhaps it is pure experience... I have heard nirvana described as boundless expansion.

[blazeofglory]

The only way to experience the fullness of life is to break free from the prison of ego. That is is a transcendence. It is a going beyond and a passing through also. It is a return to the state of innocence. We have examples of individuals who have done this very thing historically: The Buddha and Jesus. We all possess the potential to realize the totality that is so much more than any individual. And it is only in going beyond our ego, that we can experience that. The realization that this body will perish, but the spirit that informs it, is eternal. Campbell dismisses concepts as being derivitives of the mind (such as trying to imagine "God"), but he stresses that there is indeed an eternal mystery to life. As far as an assumption of a metaphysical realm, I suppose it would merely be another aspect of the physical, perhaps its opposite. Everything after-all in the physical is a joining of opposites. But these are all things that occur, or are found in Time, temporality, corporeality. The purely spiritual realm is beyond Time, and concepts. So much so that it is incomprehendable. Perhaps it is pure experience... I have heard nirvana described as boundless expansion.

Are not what you wrote are derivatives of the mind? Of course your ideas of the mystery of something too is a concept too. Of course mine too are concepts. Indeed all of are unable to triumph over things or ideas or concepts or derivatives or any other terms you can use by the same token. We are within attributes and of course we are in fluxes, in the eddy of what is going on eternally.

The Buddha and Jesus are too concepts, and we have no hundred percent evidences of their existence or the fact that they were enlightened. And of course it is hard to subscribe to what they prescribed or described were ideas that were elevating or liberating. I am really skeptical. I can not deny that there is some power or or a source of consciousness, for I have a consciousness, and indeed I may have been resourced by some great source.
But this, though is undeniable, is something I am little bit unsure of.

Indeed all we can do is argue and we can not go beyond the argument.

[thechampion]

high enough doses of ketamine will leave you completely ego-less for somewhere up to five hours. comlpetely. you would never know what it feels like until you try it.

[B-Mental]

good bye tc

[thechampion]

what does that mean? yea well i guess there is an eternal goodbye. well, ketamine doesn't actually have any long-term affects and i've only barely tried it... don't be all doom and gloom on me

[B-Mental]

I just prefer you keep your discussion to the topic, and leave your prescriptions on the some forum where they would be appreciated...this is a literature forum not the drug of the week forum.

[thechampion]

the ego can be helped to soften

[B-Mental]

Wow and in Japan the hand can be used like a knife.

[thechampion]

i am a dream, and you have overcome me. these, the most holy of forums, were your battlefield. your crusade has been a success.

[NikolaiI]

The best thing we can do is say no to others and no to ourselves. That's because life is a dream. Life is a dream and all we can do is pursue knowledge and peace for ourselves, for ourselves only. We realize that life is a dream, and in this we've also seen the truth, so we go back into the dream because that's what life is, but we go back with the knowledge of the absolute. In truth there's no duality, no good or bad, nothing to be attached to, no concepts and no time.

The end of philosophy comes and goes in ebbs and flows. When it goes, for example, when philosophers are exiled or forgotten, the philosophers must rest happy in the peace they have for themselves.

Humanity must realize that it is impermanent. It must do a death meditation. :) the champion is right in that humanity is possibly headed soon for a drugged sleep-death or oblvion. After all, if the people in humanity do this, isn't that what is happening?

I'm not saying I done this or anything, but when people do drugs, the possibilities could be endless. It all depends on what goes on in the minds of the people doing them. Hendrix did drugs and he died on them. They destroyed him yet the LSD allowed him to write some of the most beautiful music we know. The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Grateful Dead....
that's getting off topic, I know..
sorry.

[thechampion]

all kingdoms end in dreams. we are all toys. clockwork toys. a couple of winds, we walk around electing governors and changing our socks and presuming things, and then the next instant we are inert. the fact of life is change. one minute we are moving and ****ting and whatnot, and then the next, we have changed into an emptied vessel.
honestly its only my 29 post bmental don't get so worked up that thats all im going to talk about.

[B-Mental]

you have not seen me worked up champ...trust me...i really just see that you find an infallibility in yourself. You post nothing that is new. Well the ideas you have are tried, by many an artistic mind. I don't think that you expose yourself as much as you admit...show us your creative mind at its best...start a thread on your favorite poem...constructive criticism shall come your way...when you can demonstrate your ability to share openly to give and receive the same way, maybe I can take you more at face value...I won't have to think you are just out there crushing people...

I dare you to make yourself vulnerable...if you want my vulnerability, read my blog, Nik has a blog...tear me a new orifice should you so care, but don't try to promote drugs on the forums...thats all...and I bid you adieu.

[thechampion]

silly fingertips of fury my favorite poem is the best poem of all time. Apology for bad dreams by jeffers. you absolutely cannot argue. jeffers is the best poet ever.

[blazeofglory]

Champain, life has a meaning, and having given a meaning to it, I am not rationalizing it, and in fact there is something in your voice, a force, a drive and of course a motive too.

When you speak, write or do things there are of course reasons there. We are not simply toys. We do exist, and take an integral view we are all threaded or pieced together integrally and organically of course.

[B-Mental]

silly fingertips of fury my favorite poem is the best poem of all time. Apology for bad dreams by jeffers. you absolutely cannot argue. jeffers is the best poet ever.


Yes in your world whoever you like is the best...I don't belong in your world, just ignore me and stop promoting drugs...I know of no best at anything, but I know good when I see it. Still no poem of your own...I find that the drugs affecting you...too bad.

[thechampion]

You want my art? Fine see it. It will be there

[B-Mental]

Oh joy, I am thrilled...not gonna sleep until I see it...so excited.

[jon1jt]

Yeah, I want to see your work too to determine whether those drugs you're taking stimulate your creativity. :)

[kiz_paws]

And Dali went sleepless to get some of his artistic visions. Drugs are NOT a necessity, champion. But this is waaaaaay off the topic, I think!

[blazeofglory]

Something is gone amiss, friend, and let us be more understanding, and let not the issue of drugs and misunderstanding interfere into our conversations.

We are after all friends and let us tie up and maintain the relationship we have.

[Lost Arts]

The end of philosophy is when some one or every one believes he is the only one with the right answer.

"A philosopher is a man up in a balloon, with his family and friends holding the ropes which confine him to earth." L.M. Alcott

[blazeofglory]

The end of philosophy is when some one or every one believes he is the only one with the right answer.

"A philosopher is a man up in a balloon, with his family and friends holding the ropes which confine him to earth." L.M. Alcott

No Lost, it can not be. The end of philosophy is the beginning of understanding ourselves, our relationship with the universe we belong to or feel being part of it.
Here, friend I do not mean to oppose you and I never intend to oppose you, for your view is not flawed. Nobody can be wrong, for everyone has to see things from a particular perspective.

Here the end of philosophy implies that we all are from one source, diffused into zillion forms and ultimately we will have to return to the same form.

With the end of philosophy is then commences a new life, and of course a new perspective of life.

That is what I believe in. This is what I believed in while starting with this thread.

[Lost Arts]

Perhaps what I meant to say is that philosophical dialogue can not exist if those who are to take part are convinced of their own "rightness". [Bear with me, I'm new at this.] Reading through this thread one gets a micro-example of the breakdown of dialogue. And what is philosophy if it is not shared, discussed, measured and revised?

[blazeofglory]

Love arts, you are absolutely right in saying so in point of fact. Now you made your points clear, absolutely clear to me, and you are indeed close to truth. For when one becomes nonjudgmental of others' opinions, and take others as part of their own beings then one will definitely start proceeding towards truth. For what you think or your opinions are not alone yours part of mine too, notwithstanding the fact that you express or do not express.

[B-Mental]

No Lost, it can not be. The end of philosophy is the beginning of understanding ourselves, our relationship with the universe we belong to or feel being part of it.
Here, friend I do not mean to oppose you and I never intend to oppose you, for your view is not flawed. Nobody can be wrong, for everyone has to see things from a particular perspective.

Here the end of philosophy implies that we all are from one source, diffused into zillion forms and ultimately we will have to return to the same form.

With the end of philosophy is then commences a new life, and of course a new perspective of life.

That is what I believe in. This is what I believed in while starting with this thread.

Blaze, you put it so true...I believe in your words, and try to live by them...I know the world will be a better place when more people do. It brings a smile to my face to read your wit and expressions. Peace, B

[NikolaiI]

Perhaps what I meant to say is that philosophical dialogue can not exist if those who are to take part are convinced of their own "rightness". [Bear with me, I'm new at this.] Reading through this thread one gets a micro-example of the breakdown of dialogue. And what is philosophy if it is not shared, discussed, measured and revised?

For me, there are two sides to this. The first is in agreement, is something I realized but is hard to explain. If you think something, there is not room for anything else. So it's best not to think anything SO strongly, SO convictedly, etc., just because that when you do, your mind stops taking in new information. However, the other side is that you must trust yourself very much if you are to have any sanity at all. If we disrespect our own light of reason, how can we have true respect for that of others? I mean how do we make progress at all except by putting ourselves in a state of mind where we know something, and we want to build on it and learn higher things, or more advanced?

Pascal, I believe, it was, who said that a person who has a true idea knows it's a true idea, or something like that...this merits studying again, I think. I think this is rather important, at least it is so to me. But I say these things, I mean them as in relation to philosophy, and progress in knowledge and ideas-- as an individual's relation to their own philosophical knowledge. I am not talking about ideas about other people, I think it's one of the worst crimes to commit, and indicates a very deep problem, if someone believes they know someone to be a bad character or something, and then try to force this opinion on them. This seems like an insane desire for control of the others' mind.

[Tuninks]

Philosophy cannot just blank out of existence, it is more a theory of what philosophy will be in power next. We will always live with some form of philosophy, and every day we get new and possibly even better theorists on philosophy. Instead of focusing on the decline of traditional philosophy, which everything does at some point, we should focus our attentions on how the new generations of philosophers are developing and shaping our thought and minds.

[ballb]

The more answers we find, the more questions are raised. The road goes on forever. It is as long as history and will only end with the extinction of mankind. Omnibus dubitandum.

[blazeofglory]

Philosophy cannot just blank out of existence, it is more a theory of what philosophy will be in power next. We will always live with some form of philosophy, and every day we get new and possibly even better theorists on philosophy. Instead of focusing on the decline of traditional philosophy, which everything does at some point, we should focus our attentions on how the new generations of philosophers are developing and shaping our thought and minds.

I subscribe to your views on philosophy and as a matter of fact I agree that new generations shape our thoughts. Philosophies are indeed dynamic and they change over time and we need to of course change or adopt ourselves with respect to time.

[blazeofglory]

The more answers we find, the more questions are raised. The road goes on forever. It is as long as history and will only end with the extinction of mankind. Omnibus dubitandum.

Go deeper and deeper the very questions become answers.

[NikolaiI]

A true philosopher is one who loves philosophy; he loves learning, and he loves being able to immerse himself in philosophy. If he writes, it's because he wants to share ideas. The end of philosophy is truth- or it is when truth is argued over. Or at least that is the beginning of the end. I've never seen arguments do anything except escalate, or, end. The arguments never create or construct anything-- though each side is presumably after that goal, the construction...the elimination of "error" on their opponents part, though this is just a pretense, and the desire is more primal, that of victory, glory, and death of the opponent.

[blazeofglory]

Philosophy is a tool for understanding ourselves and our relationship with the universe and nothing more. The end of it is self realization. Self realization is something that has to understand how is part of the cosmic whole, and the fact that all we come from the same entity. Also to understand any difference that lies in ourselves is an illusion.

To me the end of philosophy begins spirituality. Spirituality is something as I understand has to do with the understanding of the fact that there is cosmic spirit and that permeates all beings, and things, animate and inanimate.

If we understand this fact that we strung by common thread we will vanquish enmities or the feeling dualism ends, and oneness prevails over conflict and friction. There will be no others, all will be immersed into oneself. This is the Nirvana the Buddha sought, the Mokshhya the Vedas are seeking or the liberation of the soul.

There is no thing to seek or arrive at ultimately. It is in the here and now that we find everything.

[jon1jt]

Philosophy is to feel compassion---that life can be so sad and mistaken, and at the same time the profound belief that what you think, what you believe, is going to make people wake again one day.

[blazeofglory]

Philosophy is indeed a subject, notwithstanding the fact that it is not clean of flaws and make us think about who we are, and why we are here.

Indeed it awakens us to reality and to the origin of us, and it tries to define what is our goal after all.

All of us overtly or covertly want to know why we are, the stuff we are and of course our connection with the universe of which we are integrally at one with as a matter of fact.

[jon1jt]

I leave my house and feel the Diamond Sutra.
It leaves me cold, and sometimes I feel the presence of angels.
Can philosophy answer the belief that rebirth is simply having kids?
I think of the daughter I never had.

[blazeofglory]

Can philosophy answer the belief that rebirth is simply having kids?


Philosophy whether that is spiritual or otherwise never can answer some questions, and indeed it demands of us some deep thoughts or meditation.

I do not say meditation can be only tool. But this is indeed a sublimer or subtler course.