what is clichéd or original in poetry?

[SleepyWitch]

heehee ( this thread is dedicated to you, Uncle Virgil) :)
I've sometimes had some lines from my poems called clichéd (and have seen lines from other members' poems called the same).
now I'm not sure what is clichéd and what isn't. most of the time I agree with my "critics", i.e. when the line sounds kitchy. but sometimes, it's not kitchy, but just an every day expression (e.g. to drink something in). now my problem with these everyday expressions is that I'm not a native speaker. so sometimes when i learn a new expression it sounds awefully cool to me (because I've never heard/used it before), but for native speakers it's dull and they call it clichéd.

so could our vets (I mean veterans, not doctors for animal ;)) help out the non-native speakers or first-time poets and give us examples of what's clichéd? heheh, if you need examples there are plenty of them in my poems. or you could write a parody of a clichéd poem if it's not too much bother?

what does clichéd mean? is it "kitchy", "from everyday language" or "it's been done a hundred times before"? or all of these? can there be clichéd themes as well as clichéd expressions such as city vs nature; good old uncle Edward died and I miss him so much and I'm so sad, bohooohoooohoo etc. if some themes are clichéd can they still be made to sound interesting if original expressions are used to convey them?
are the poems or famous poets sometimes clichéd or is it just that they are outdated and we find them funny today?

anyways, here's my fave funny line from a famous poem, May Song by Goethe. dunno if it's clichéd but I find it damn funny (especially in German).

English:
Oh maiden, maiden,
How love I thee!
Thine eye, how gleams it!
How lov'st thou me!

German:
Wie blickt dein Auge !
Wie liebst du mich !

Sleepy's literal translation:
How looks your eye,
how do you love me.

poor girl's got only one eye!!!!

hehe, despite all the irony, I'm really interested in this and will appreciate any comment

[Lote-Tree]

Is there anything Truly Original?

[SleepyWitch]

blah, Lote :) we all know that :) give us examples of what is known as clichéd and what is considered original (even though it may not be Truly Original). or else I will raise Uncle Edward from the dead and make him chase you :sick:. sorry i'm kinda obsessed with Uncle Edward today

[Lote-Tree]

blah, Lote :) we all know that :) give us examples of what is known as clichéd and what is considered original (even though it may not be Truly Original).


If nothing is truly original then everything you say is cliched. Dictionary is Cliche?



or else I will raise Uncle Edward from the dead and make him chase you :sick:. sorry i'm kinda obsessed with Uncle Edward today

Nay problemo. Because there is no true orginality. Everything evolves little by little based on what came before...

[Virgil]

heehee ( this thread is dedicated to you, Uncle Virgil) :)

:lol: I'm honored, Sleepy.


I've sometimes had some lines from my poems called clichéd (and have seen lines from other members' poems called the same).
now I'm not sure what is clichéd and what isn't. most of the time I agree with my "critics", i.e. when the line sounds kitchy. but sometimes, it's not kitchy, but just an every day expression (e.g. to drink something in).
From Merriam-Webster:

cliche
Main Entry: cli·ché
Variant(s): also cli·che /klE-'shA, 'klE-", kli-'/
Function: noun
Etymology: French, literally, printer's stereotype, from past participle of clicher to stereotype, of imitative origin
1 : a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it
2 : a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation
3 : something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace
- cliché adjective
I think also "overused" is a good way to describ a cliche. It really suggests an unimaginative phrasing, and poetry is not just about expression (if it is that at all). Poetry is fundementally the art of crafting language. What you choose to write about or express is up to the poet.


now my problem with these everyday expressions is that I'm not a native speaker. so sometimes when i learn a new expression it sounds awefully cool to me (because I've never heard/used it before), but for native speakers it's dull and they call it clichéd.
Yes, you are at a disadvantage in one respect (non-familiarity) but you also have an extra advantage in that you have not been infleuenced and structured by common phrases. In every day speech native speakers reach for the easiest phrase at hand, and they are usually trite. You just reminded me of what my college poetry writing professor said. He said that some of the most original lines came from non-native speaking students, usually by accident. In New York we have lots of non-native speaking students, from all over.


so could our vets (I mean veterans, not doctors for animal ;)) help out the non-native speakers or first-time poets and give us examples of what's clichéd? heheh, if you need examples there are plenty of them in my poems. or you could write a parody of a clichéd poem if it's not too much bother?
Here's a web site devoted to cliches, of all things: http://www.clichesite.com/index.asp


what does clichéd mean? is it "kitchy", "from everyday language" or "it's been done a hundred times before"? or all of these? can there be clichéd themes as well as clichéd expressions such as city vs nature; good old uncle Edward died and I miss him so much and I'm so sad, bohooohoooohoo etc. if some themes are clichéd can they still be made to sound interesting if original expressions are used to convey them?
Yes, those are cliches. But I like the word "kitchy". I'm not familiar with that expression. Is that something the younger people say?


are the poems or famous poets sometimes clichéd or is it just that they are outdated and we find them funny today?
Well sometimes phrases from Shakespeare become cliches but were not when he wrote it. Certain phrasings just catch on. This is not to say that a poem cannot use a cliche. It depends how one does it. If you climax to a cliche then it just hits a bad note. If a poem is filled with cliche after cliche, then you wonder at the skill level of the writer.



anyways, here's my fave funny line from a famous poem, May Song by Goethe. dunno if it's clichéd but I find it damn funny (especially in German).

English:
Oh maiden, maiden,
How love I thee!
Thine eye, how gleams it!
How lov'st thou me!

German:
Wie blickt dein Auge !
Wie liebst du mich !

Sleepy's literal translation:
How looks your eye,
how do you love me.

poor girl's got only one eye!!!!
See, that's what I mean about a non-native speaker accidentally being creative with the language.


hehe, despite all the irony, I'm really interested in this and will appreciate any comment
I hope I helped.

[ktd222]

blah, Lote :) we all know that :) give us examples of what is known as clichéd and what is considered original (even though it may not be Truly Original). or else I will raise Uncle Edward from the dead and make him chase you :sick:. sorry i'm kinda obsessed with Uncle Edward today



"Clear as mud. Dead as a doornail. Thick as thieves.

Old hat. Close shave. Hair of the dog. His birthday suit.
By the seat of one's pants--i.e., by the skin of one's teeth.
By a whisker--i.e., by a nose. Cut the apron strings--
tie the knot!
Put it on the back burner--put it on ice!

This is a snippet from Heather McHugh, from poets.org. In this poem she takes cliche phrases and makes a poem with it. But the important thing to note is by smashing all these cliche phrasing together in this way, she has created something original from what is considered unoriginal phrasings.

[SleepyWitch]

aaargh, kitchy is a spello! (overdoing the English way of spelling by avoiding sch even when it's really spelled that way! I meant kitschy, schmaltzy, tacky, cheap and sentimental..

thanks for your advice Virg. i will read it again and think about it later (at univ now)



"Clear as mud. Dead as a doornail. Thick as thieves.

Old hat. Close shave. Hair of the dog. His birthday suit.
By the seat of one's pants--i.e., by the skin of one's teeth.
By a whisker--i.e., by a nose. Cut the apron strings--
tie the knot!
Put it on the back burner--put it on ice!

This is a snippet from Heather McHugh, from poets.org. In this poem she takes cliche phrases and makes a poem with it. But the important thing to note is by smashing all these cliche phrasing together in this way, she has created something original from what is considered unoriginal phrasings.

yeah, it reads nice! trouble is, you can only do a handful of those before they become boring and unoriginal themselves :)

[blp]

I think the main meaning is done a hundred times before. That results in kitsch, but kitsch can be other things.

The poem ktd posted uses phrases that seem to me to go beyond the clichéed, in that they're such stock phrases that they've almost become words in themselves. Not that it's any more acceptable to use them.

More interesting because more tricky, though, if you'll forgive me for saying so, ktd, are the phrases that actually might have once been interesting poetic thoughts. The idea of blood curdling is pretty amazing if you think about it. Even running like the wind wouldn't be bad if you were the first person to think of it.

An idea can be clichéd, as much as a given phrase, for instance, comparing love or one's lover to flowers, no matter what particular phrasing you use. Similarly: sky=dome, eyes shine like jewels, skin like alabaster.

[ampoule]

I'm pretty sure our AuntShecky has a thread about cliches?? Did she not write a really nice poem herself using them?

Personally I think cliche is cliche. If I can use them in conversation, I can use them in my poems. I know it is a fine line though and I suppose it depends on who your poems are written for. If they are for me, I can wallow in them. If I'm writing for others I guess I owe them more.

I suppose 'wallow in them' is a cliche. :( But I love to wallow, so.....

[SleepyWitch]

I think the main meaning is done a hundred times before. That results in kitsch, but kitsch can be other things.

The poem ktd posted uses phrases that seem to me to go beyond the clichéed, in that they're such stock phrases that they've almost become words in themselves. Not that it's any more acceptable to use them.

More interesting because more tricky, though, if you'll forgive me for saying so, ktd, are the phrases that actually might have once been interesting poetic thoughts. The idea of blood curdling is pretty amazing if you think about it. Even running like the wind wouldn't be bad if you were the first person to think of it.

An idea can be clichéd, as much as a given phrase, for instance, comparing love or one's lover to flowers, no matter what particular phrasing you use. Similarly: sky=dome, eyes shine like jewels, skin like alabaster.

cool, so if i say skin like limestone I'm creative? or compare my love to a seaweed? hey, i like seaweeds :D

thanks blp. i know what you mean about blood curdling and running like the wind... do you think poets will be able to come up with new images and metaphors for ever? i mean, there are only so many ways in which you can describe something and still convey the meaning you intended...

[blp]

cool, so if i say skin like limestone I'm creative? or compare my love to a seaweed? hey, i like seaweeds :D

thanks blp. i know what you mean about blood curdling and running like the wind... do you think poets will be able to come up with new images and metaphors for ever? i mean, there are only so many ways in which you can describe something and still convey the meaning you intended...

Well, the idea that a poem is just supposed to be made up of a lot of things standing in for other things is pretty limiting anyway. But yeah, actually, I think it's always possible to chuck out a cliché and find something newer.

[firefangled]

More interesting because more tricky, though, if you'll forgive me for saying so, ktd, are the phrases that actually might have once been interesting poetic thoughts. The idea of blood curdling is pretty amazing if you think about it. Even running like the wind wouldn't be bad if you were the first person to think of it.



blp, I agree, if you were the first to use a phrase it wouldn't be a cliche, but you can also be the first to use a cliche in some other way, parody, exaggeration, or sometimes you can just dog something into being interesting, maybe by repetition...

Lichtenstein, I think elevated cliche to an art form as did Warhol, by taking it out of context or by making the context so overwhelming that cliche became interesting, in a sense because we saw how it was assembled or where it got its reason for being in the first place.


I'm pretty sure our AuntShecky has a thread about cliches?? Did she not write a really nice poem herself using them?

Personally I think cliche is cliche. If I can use them in conversation, I can use them in my poems. I know it is a fine line though and I suppose it depends on who your poems are written for. If they are for me, I can wallow in them. If I'm writing for others I guess I owe them more.



I think we are all still suckers for a good cliche when it hits the spot. Love poems, tributes, salutes, toasts, it's very difficult and sometimes comes off as cold to escape the language of these situations and subjects.

That said here's my cliche...more a point than a poem, thank you very much:yawnb:


Methuselah Is Rescued By His Wife
From Becoming a Cliché

Old!
As Methuselah screamed,
looking at his reflection,
his wife grabbed the seat of his pants,

couldn’t prove it by me, hurry up,
it’s time; flies are in the kitchen again, by the way, Babe.

But my skin — of my teeth, I have
no complaints, but these spots on…

a leopard was out there last night —
you were up late, Babe, that’s all;
the cat’s meow woke me at 2,
but the sand man made me go back to sleep,
I remembered he comes today, or tomorrow;
is another day for the patio?
Someone has to watch that thief.

Love you, honey-bunny, your so kind I…

Oh, Babe, don’t use that worn out nick on me —
hmmm these pomegranates are finally ripe —
old age doesn’t mean we get all gooey, or lazy,

I’m feeling like ‘ol Mose, even though Bloodhounds
are supposed to lie around like that, until the hunt.

Babe! Everybody knows that dog don’t hunt anymore,
come-on, get ready, quit mopin’, we’re going dancing,
you and I will be steppin’ into the light…

Fantastic!

[SleepyWitch]

wow, firefangled I like your cliché poem.

[Granny5]

I don't want to sound cliche, but it's a great poem, firefangled.

[Pendragon]

Well, cliché or not, sometimes the word works. An editor once jumped me for using the word “cloying” to describe the scent of a Paulownia Tree. (Some of you might know it better as "Princess Tree".) And they are highly fragrant and can be scented from a distance.

http://www.foxall.com.au/users/cindylin/paulownia-flower.jpg

Since “cloying” means “sickeningly sweet” and usually is a term of disgust, and I was using it as from its old English form accloy which meant” to clog” meaning the air in this case, I didn’t feel it was a cliché.

What say you, wise wolf brother Virgil?

[SleepyWitch]

hm, difficult to say, Pen. if you want to get your meaning across you'd have to rely on your reader to know a lot about the origin of words in this case. but even so, why shouldn't that tree smell sickenly sweet. you can have too much of a good thing, as the saying goes.

[ampoule]

you can have too much of a good thing, as the saying goes.

Shouldn't that be, as the cliche goes? ;) :D Just teasing.

[SleepyWitch]

Shouldn't that be, as the cliche goes? ;) :D Just teasing.

yes, I know :) I used 2 clichés in one sentence :)

[Pendragon]

I think if we may not use clichés, we are going to have to learn to talk all over again! http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Four/Nada.gif

[blazeofglory]

heehee ( this thread is dedicated to you, Uncle Virgil) :)
I've sometimes had some lines from my poems called clichéd (and have seen lines from other members' poems called the same).
now I'm not sure what is clichéd and what isn't. most of the time I agree with my "critics", i.e. when the line sounds kitchy. but sometimes, it's not kitchy, but just an every day expression (e.g. to drink something in). now my problem with these everyday expressions is that I'm not a native speaker. so sometimes when i learn a new expression it sounds awefully cool to me (because I've never heard/used it before), but for native speakers it's dull and they call it clichéd.

so could our vets (I mean veterans, not doctors for animal ;)) help out the non-native speakers or first-time poets and give us examples of what's clichéd? heheh, if you need examples there are plenty of them in my poems. or you could write a parody of a clichéd poem if it's not too much bother?

what does clichéd mean? is it "kitchy", "from everyday language" or "it's been done a hundred times before"? or all of these? can there be clichéd themes as well as clichéd expressions such as city vs nature; good old uncle Edward died and I miss him so much and I'm so sad, bohooohoooohoo etc. if some themes are clichéd can they still be made to sound interesting if original expressions are used to convey them?
are the poems or famous poets sometimes clichéd or is it just that they are outdated and we find them funny today?

anyways, here's my fave funny line from a famous poem, May Song by Goethe. dunno if it's clichéd but I find it damn funny (especially in German).

English:
Oh maiden, maiden,
How love I thee!
Thine eye, how gleams it!
How lov'st thou me!

German:
Wie blickt dein Auge !
Wie liebst du mich !

Sleepy's literal translation:
How looks your eye,
how do you love me.

poor girl's got only one eye!!!!

hehe, despite all the irony, I'm really interested in this and will appreciate any comment

clichéd is something that has to do with things that are dull, and obsolete an d in point of fact it comes from domains of day to day affairs, and they are words and sentences which have goes through phases of tear and wear throgh passages of time.

Of course if you are not a native speaker you should be rather careful about using it, for if we can not put to perfect use of it you will be kind of an imperfect writer.

[AuntShecky]

Lote-tree asks if there is anything "truly original"? Probably not, as some would argue that the human condition has not changed since we first started walking upright.
Our art, however, and specifically our poetry, does not really come alive until we offer-- or attempt to offer -- something new, something that has never before been expressed in exactly the same way, something "original." Remember the Alexander Pope line:
What oft was thought
Yet ne'er so well expressed.

Sometimes we love the "honey and peace of old poems"
(that's a R. Jeffers line) so much, that we unconsciously copy them when we try to write our own stuff. This is what
editors or professors mean when they say our work is
"derivative."

A cliché is a worn-out, boring, hackneyed phrase. We're not really verbally lazy, but we call on clichés as a kind of
oral shorthand, to move mundane conversations along.
By the way, there is no such word as "clichéd"; it's a noun.
As a noun, it would be prefaced with an article. So we would say "The image of the meddling mother-in-law is AN old cliché. " --NOT "that is so cliché" (without the "an")
or "that is clichéd" (as if it were a verb or some kind of
participial phrase.)

p.s. I'm so pleased at the reference of "our" Aunt Shecky.

Sincerely,
"Your" Auntie

[Lote-Tree]

Lote-tree asks if there is anything "truly original"? Probably not, as some would argue that the human condition has not changed since we first started walking upright.
Our art, however, and specifically our poetry, does not really come alive until we offer-- or attempt to offer -- something new, something that has never before been expressed in exactly the same way, something "original."


I would say Poetry does not become poetry until it is felt upon the heart.

And the more simply you say the old truths the more powerful it becomes.

I have seen poets here trying excruciatingly hard to come up with an imagery to say old truth "Love hurts". And you can see it how manufactured it is. I think this is not poetry. It is just a game you play with words and it does not mean much if it can't be felt...

Poetry is about feeling.

Poetry should move you.

Poetry like music has to be felt.

If you are talking about cliche - then everythig we do or say are clieched. Even the dictionary is cliched. But you can take everyday language, everyday words and say it in such a way that it is felt upon the pulse and raced along by the passiones to the heart...